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Old March 12, 2018, 14:13   #1
justashooter
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Sessions tries to claim bump stocks are under NFA machine gun definition

Department of Justice Submits Notice of Proposed Regulation Banning Bump Stocks

Today the Department of Justice submitted to the Office of Management and Budget a notice of a proposed regulation to clarify that the definition of “machinegun” in the National Firearms Act and Gun Control Act includes bump stock type devices, and that federal law accordingly prohibits the possession, sale, or manufacture of such devices.

"President Trump is absolutely committed to ensuring the safety and security of every American and he has directed us to propose a regulation addressing bump stocks,” said Attorney General Jeff Sessions. “To that end, the Department of Justice has submitted to the Office of Management and Budget a notice of a proposed regulation to clarify that the National Firearms and Gun Control Act defines ‘machinegun’ to include bump stock type devices.”

This submission is a formal requirement of the regulatory review process. Once approved by the Office of Management and Budget, the Department of Justice will seek to publish this notice as expeditiously as possible.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/depar...ng-bump-stocks

The Trump administration announced this weekend that it will be banning bump stocks, a modification that increases a semiautomatic rifle's rate of fire.

"President Trump is absolutely committed to ensuring the safety and security of every American and he has directed us to propose a regulation addressing bump stocks," said Attorney General Jeff Sessions in a press release announcing the move. The Justice Department, he continued, had submitted draft rules declaring "that the National Firearms and Gun Control Act defines 'machinegun' to include bump stock type devices."

Given that federal law prohibits private individuals from possessing machine guns that were acquired after 1986, this would effectively ban anyone from owning the more recently invented bump stocks.

Bump stocks have been in the sights of lawmakers of both parties since a deadly shooting in Las Vegas last October, when 58 people were killed and hundreds more wounded at a country music concert. Twelve of the shooter's rifles had been modified with bump stocks.

Within days of that shooting, Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.) promised legislation banning the device. Reps. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fla.) and Seth Moulton (D-Mass.) introduced a bump stock ban a week later. Other Republican lawmakers, from House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) to Sen. Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said they would be OK with some sort of ban. The NRA likewise endorsed "additional regulations" on the product.

States too have targeted bump stocks in in recent months, with Washington, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Florida passing bans. Similar laws are working their way through the legislatures in Maryland and Illinois.

Following the Parkland shooting, Donald Trump also endorsed a federal ban, going as far as to personally direct Sessions in a press conference to implement new regulations as soon as possible.

One problem: Adding bump stocks to the definition of machine guns in existing federal law is legally dubious, as Reason's Jacob Sullum has noted.

According to statute, a machine gun is "any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger." But bump stocks fire just one shot per trigger function. Unlike a standard rifle stock, which is fixed to the barrel, a bump stock lets the barrel slide back and forth along the stock when firing, continuously "bumping" against the shooters trigger finger, increasing the rate of fire but still requiring one trigger pull per shot.

For this reason, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) has declared multiple times that the feds tight restrictions on machine guns do not cover bump stocks.

Feinstein is also skeptical of the executive branch's power to ban bump stocks unilaterally. In a February statement, she said bluntly that the ATF "currently lacks authority under the law to ban bump stocks."

"If ATF tries to ban these devices after admitting repeatedly that it lacks the authority to do so, that process could be tied up in court for years, and that would mean bump stocks would continue to be sold." And indeed, Gun Owners of America has suggested it might pursue legal action against an executive bump stock ban.

The draft rules announced by Sessions will be reviewed by the Office of Budget and Management before being made public.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/03/12/doj-announces-bump-stock
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The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old March 12, 2018, 15:23   #2
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If they pull this one off, it'll set a precedent for just about ANY device to become a machine gun, simply because they saw it is.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:09   #3
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If this flies, is my finger is next!
I can pull the trigger really fast when I want too.
Like bump stocks, can't hit anything, but my finger is really, really, really fast pulling a trigger.
Oh wait, that is what a bump stock does.
Never mind.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:22   #4
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If this flies, is my finger is next!
I can pull the trigger really fast when I want too.
Like bump stocks, can't hit anything, but my finger is really, really, really fast pulling a trigger.
Oh wait, that is what a bump stock does.
Never mind.
I've seen vids of dudes that can bump fire without any assists that were damn near like FA and were as accurate as FA.

This will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I hope everyone has at least one just to help them keep the alphabet agency busy and gain an understanding as to how they would go after SAs in the future. Too bad most turn their nose up at owning one when it should be a civic duty. Hell you can build one probably in an afternoon
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:30   #5
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I've seen vids of dudes that can bump fire without any assists that were damn near like FA and were as accurate as FA.

This will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I hope everyone has at least one just to help them keep the alphabet agency busy and gain an understanding as to how they would go after SAs in the future. Too bad most turn their nose up at owning one when it should be a civic duty.
I've actually got one of these things, it was a gift.
Sat here for years, got bored one day and mounted it.
Loaded up some mags, and gave it a try at 50 yards.

After a few tries, three round burst into center mass on a human size target was easy and consistent.

Controlled Mag dumps, no problem.

Actually preferred it over a fun switch, nothing to do except move my finger then single or full auto rate of fire on command.

Since it seems to piss everyone off, just going to keep the thing.

Of course, I won;t ever tell these people, if I ever need to do serious work,,,, again, my Remington 870 is my go to weapon of choice.
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Old March 12, 2018, 16:37   #6
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I

Of course, I won;t ever tell these people, if I ever need to do serious work,,,, again, my Remington 870 is my go to weapon of choice.
Yeah, you don't have to aim very much even out to 25 yds with a load of buckshot. I always wonder if smaller buck shot with more pellets is better than 00.
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:17   #7
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Does that mean they'll ban Geissele triggers too?
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:31   #8
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Well, if they declare bump stocks are retroactively now machine guns, and there Is a provision under law for machine guns in the NFA Registry, then doesn't that mean they get serialized and added to the Registry? This is as opposed to being declared contraband and subject to seizure?
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:31   #9
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Does that mean they'll ban Geissele triggers too?
Do they act the same as a bump stock, never used one of theirs?
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Old March 12, 2018, 17:35   #10
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Well, if they declare bump stocks are retroactively now machine guns, and there Is a provision under law for machine guns in the NFA Registry, then doesn't that mean they get serialized and added to the Registry? This is as opposed to being declared contraband and subject to seizure?
How many millions were made and sold, this could get rather interesting, as in, if they add these, why not be able to add MORE new machine guns??????

I missed out on the Sten I wanted, more want than money back then.

A 200.00 fully auto sten would be a nice present for fathers day.
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Old March 12, 2018, 18:28   #11
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Do they act the same as a bump stock, never used one of theirs?
I have one of their SSA's. (Super Semi Auto). It doubled on me first time at the range. Nothing I did would stop it. Range officer finally said I should consider putting the gun up, so I did.

i'd bet that trigger would be easy to bump fire. Not my thing though. I like tight groups.
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Old March 12, 2018, 19:15   #12
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I have one of their SSA's. (Super Semi Auto). It doubled on me first time at the range. Nothing I did would stop it. Range officer finally said I should consider putting the gun up, so I did.

i'd bet that trigger would be easy to bump fire. Not my thing though. I like tight groups.
So just another, latest thingy, light ass trigger and all, got it.

My Remington 700 M&P will go bang, if I look at it hard, if adjusted down to near nuthin.

Not real safe, but to each their own.

Thanks RSU
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Old March 13, 2018, 12:54   #13
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A 200.00 fully auto sten would be a nice present for fathers day.
tell that to the guys that didn't get heydrich because they were using a sten, and the thousands of people he ordered executed in retribution.
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Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old March 13, 2018, 13:42   #14
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tell that to the guys that didn't get heydrich because they were using a sten, and the thousands of people he ordered executed in retribution.
Why, they are all dead now?

A Sten for me would be a simple collectable, not something I'd care to carry into another war zone.

Any firearm is subject to misfiring, shit simply happens.

The best and most sure way to kill anyone, get right up in their face, and place two rounds in their brain bucket.

If your weapon fails to work, finish the job with your knife and or your own two hands.

Its been my opinion for ages, that most firearm mishaps are due to a high tension short between the operator's finger, trigger, and brain resulting in piss poor performance of the task at hand.

Killing is easy, living in peace is damn hard.
So many worthless assholes in this world and so many restrictions on how to deal with them.
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Old March 13, 2018, 15:45   #15
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But can we put a bumpfire stock on a machine gun?
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Old March 16, 2018, 10:59   #16
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Due to the bad PR, no NRA support and a "Walk Out" at our local high schools protesting sale of AR's to 18 year olds and bumpfire LGS stopped selling Slidefire stocks but sells binary triggers. Been keeping my personal bumpfire stocks under the gunsmith counter so if someone comes in willing to pay my price sell them the stock personally and then they pay LGS labor for installation.

Yesterday was told to remove my bumpfire stocks from the store, not to bring back and not sell in any manner that associates them with the LGS. Apparently customers have even complained about the evil and useless devices in the shop. Now that I removed mine no more bumpfire and if someone comes in with bump rifle are told at door to take to car. I am not allowed to troubleshoot a rifle with bumpfire device attached. Kids are giving up their right to buy rifles at 18 freely. More die per week in car accidents than per year in gun incidents. Am starting a campaign wiring local news, calling in on talk radio discussing if we are really concerned with the safety of our youth the better idea is raise driving age to 21.

Kid in Florida could have taken a pickup truck down the sidewalk as busses were loading and killed more than he did with his AR 15 easily. Let's take the punks cars away.
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Old March 16, 2018, 11:41   #17
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Due to the bad PR, no NRA support and a "Walk Out" at our local high schools protesting sale of AR's to 18 year olds and bumpfire LGS stopped selling Slidefire stocks but sells binary triggers. Been keeping my personal bumpfire stocks under the gunsmith counter so if someone comes in willing to pay my price sell them the stock personally and then they pay LGS labor for installation.

Yesterday was told to remove my bumpfire stocks from the store, not to bring back and not sell in any manner that associates them with the LGS. Apparently customers have even complained about the evil and useless devices in the shop. Now that I removed mine no more bumpfire and if someone comes in with bump rifle are told at door to take to car. I am not allowed to troubleshoot a rifle with bumpfire device attached. Kids are giving up their right to buy rifles at 18 freely. More die per week in car accidents than per year in gun incidents. Am starting a campaign wiring local news, calling in on talk radio discussing if we are really concerned with the safety of our youth the better idea is raise driving age to 21.

Kid in Florida could have taken a pickup truck down the sidewalk as busses were loading and killed more than he did with his AR 15 easily. Let's take the punks cars away.
So you work at a gun store?
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Old March 16, 2018, 12:53   #18
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So you work at a gun store?
he is the old dude that sits around annoying customers with bullshit stories, like he does to us.
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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old March 16, 2018, 17:01   #19
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AR-15's (and many others) magically became assault rifles at the stroke of a pen. Gun stocks can likewise become machineguns ... no big thing. The real prize will be semi autos in general ... and then all guns. We will become Europe. Some interesting things will occur before that happens.
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Old March 16, 2018, 17:38   #20
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AR-15's (and many others) magically became assault rifles at the stroke of a pen. Gun stocks can likewise become machineguns ... no big thing. The real prize will be semi autos in general ... and then all guns. We will become Europe. Some interesting things will occur before that happens.
Naw, I've been to Europe, many, many times, lived there for over 11 years or so, I don;t care to live like they do in Europe, so we ain't going to become Europe.
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Old March 16, 2018, 21:10   #21
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he is the old dude that sits around annoying customers with bullshit stories, like he does to us.
Speak for yourself. Carry on Huey.
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Old March 16, 2018, 22:01   #22
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Speak for yourself. Carry on Huey.
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Old March 16, 2018, 22:13   #23
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Yepper!
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Old March 17, 2018, 09:55   #24
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So many worthless assholes in this world and so many restrictions on how to deal with them.
Do you have anything against ritual sacrifices on volcanos?
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Old March 17, 2018, 12:57   #25
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well again as I have stated in previous threads on this topic it's a damn can of worms to attempt to re regulate
I'd wager there are already well over ten thousand slide fire pattern stocks in circulation.

Understand, I find these gadgets straight silly. Personally I have absolutely zero use or need for one
then again I feel the same about pistols built out of AR, AK, whatever receivers.
or a Super 14 Contender.

My objection is logistical
with the numbers already mostly un tracable it's just dumb to attempt "bans"
they want to do this then give it to Congress. MiniMe Sessions needs to stay out of it & Trump should shut his fat mouth about things he has zero clue about.

One thing that bothers me is how many of you have attempted to run one of these stocks shooting from high ground to low ?
don't work very well folks, you are fighting gravity
shooting on a horizontal plane they work okay I guess. Shooting from that hotel into a crowd ?
uh' no.
went out with two buddies who have bump stocks on ARs
50'+ berm, out of three guns not one ran with the muzzle declined that deep with a slide fire set up on a .223 anyways
just not enough recoil momentum to overcome planetary gravitational force without a spring assist.
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Old March 17, 2018, 15:17   #26
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So you work at a gun store?
I stop in and do AR triggers and repairs on way home from work & Saturdays for store credit to help support my habit. Yesterday owner asked me to come in next week as was having issues with his binary rifles. Shoot fine when can is attached but are short stroking when removes can. Occasionally they even have simple parts swaps that get too involved for their tools. Will remove upper from the lower & then take to real facility. When get busy will work sales behind counter and am a real enough employee am allowed to place orders and open accounts. Everyone needs a part time gig for some variety.
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Old March 17, 2018, 16:31   #27
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Do you have anything against ritual sacrifices on volcanos?
Nothing that I can think of right off hand.

You bring the buns and I'll bring the frankfurters.
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Old March 17, 2018, 16:38   #28
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well again as I have stated in previous threads on this topic it's a damn can of worms to attempt to re regulate
I'd wager there are already well over ten thousand slide fire pattern stocks in circulation.

Understand, I find these gadgets straight silly. Personally I have absolutely zero use or need for one
then again I feel the same about pistols built out of AR, AK, whatever receivers.
or a Super 14 Contender.

My objection is logistical
with the numbers already mostly un tracable it's just dumb to attempt "bans"
they want to do this then give it to Congress. MiniMe Sessions needs to stay out of it & Trump should shut his fat mouth about things he has zero clue about.

One thing that bothers me is how many of you have attempted to run one of these stocks shooting from high ground to low ?
don't work very well folks, you are fighting gravity
shooting on a horizontal plane they work okay I guess. Shooting from that hotel into a crowd ?
uh' no.
went out with two buddies who have bump stocks on ARs
50'+ berm, out of three guns not one ran with the muzzle declined that deep with a slide fire set up on a .223 anyways
just not enough recoil momentum to overcome planetary gravitational force without a spring assist.
If there ever comes a time, when normal folks need or even want to carry a full automatic rifle/carbine in this country, I would expect they will be laying about waiting to be picked up all over the country.

Full auto has its place, in jungles where the cover is so thick you can't see 30 feet in front of you, maybe in clearing houses, and for keeping certain large areas of open terrain from being used by opposition forces, but other than that, semi works about perfectly in most situations.

Weapons firing on full auto also break and stop working far faster than weapons firing on semi auto rates of fire.

Worst thing that can happen to a fellow in any gun battle, is having his firearm to stop working.
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Old March 17, 2018, 16:59   #29
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Speak for yourself. Carry on Huey.
You guys realize that folks much better at dishing disrespect than he hate me even worse around here. I am very detail oriented and nothing upsets me more than an employee or client leaving critical information out of a communication rather than putting all information that may be pertinent to the job in for brevity or sheer sake of laziness.

It's sometimes funny way the simbiotic relationship with myself and LGS works. I have right to use their FFL if necessary to open any account if I make the initial opening order out of pocket. I also open non FFL accounts with firearms distributors in my company name. If you have an S Corp, LLC or similar, brick & mortar location, Federal Tax I.D. Number, State Sales & Tax Number along with business license for retail sales almost any distributor will open you up as a non FFL dealer for parts and accessories. With that I also have the Federal I.D., State Sales & Use numbers along with FFL and address of LGS with permission to use. Some distributors we have three accounts, my non FFL that ships direct to me, an LGS FFL account that bills to me but ships to them and their account that bills and ships to them.

More than a few times have been on client side of counter or behind gun smith station tuning a trigger to hear manager or owner tell a client we did not have an account with company x or y. I sing out and say "yes we do, call and ask for Joe or whoever" and suddenly they have the item client wants on the way. They will even text or call me to ask if "we" have an account with so & so. A few weeks ago heard owner tell someone we didn't have an account with a particular company and that they were retail only, didn't sell through retaillers. Waved my arms frantically and he paused telling client to wait. Told him to call, use my corporate name, put on the stores card and have the gun sent to the store. He was stunned to discover that he had an account with a vendor he believed didn't discount to retailers.

It's all 100% legal, vendors know better how it's set up than LGS most times but on occasion something funny happens. Before Thanksgiving I called Centerfire Systems and ordered 24 more of the Mag Tactical lowers they were selling retail online for $99 three packs, same day manager of LGS called and ordered 240 on their account. Though on separate accounts and credit cards shipping thought first order (mine) was a duplicate so cancelled it and shipped the 240 LGS ordered for Black Friday special. Couple weeks later I kept asking if my lowers were in, was told no so called and they had to do a bit of digging to figure out the issue and quickly got mine on the way and told me were down to less than 1,000 units and price was raised right after Black Friday but honored mine as last that went out at super bargain price.

Same with CDNN, Palmetto and more than a dozen others. If you have all your paperwork in order, are a legitimate retail vendor and willing to make their $500 to $1,000 minimum opening order you can be a non FFL dealer as well but it's best to have an FFL can work with so can get those items as well through their books. Fill out a 4473 almost weekly often with a dozen or more serials listed. I get better deals, they get access to more wholesalers withour spending a zillion dollars and get an AR technician any afternoon something goes sideways on them and job overwhelms them. I can also do a few other things like pre trade in inspections of CETME's, H&K's, FAL varients and a few other guns their employees are not as familiar with. Like the FN 16 gauge shotgun they had. I am paying full ask as they had it priced too low and had I not bought it was going to add $90 to price tag.

I sometimes come in within an hour of opening on a rainy Saturday when have mostly outside work that needs sunshine to complete as all the other construction guys will flog the shop and we won't even get to take lunch breaks. I get paid in store credit not money for "hanging around" and work the gunsmith counter or retail whichever is busiest. On way home from work if notice parking lot is overflowing stop and help,them till closing. If they have stack of trigger work they call and I stock by and knock them out so yes, to a degree I am that old guy that hangs around telling stories whill I work even if it's cleaning the gunsmith bench and organizing tools as owner scatters the place when he works on guns and I like an organized work station.

But back to Slidefire, went by gun show today and was going to take a few new in box units in but met buddy coming out who said not to bother going in as a zillion people already had them at prices from $199 to $599 like someone would pay an extra $400 from a vendor with big table. For $199 will keep the things but he said people were buying them. He had already looked and said was not any FN stuff worth looking at. Same guy keeps showing up with a single mix master every show and usually it's only FAL in the building, every couple of shows he has a different mixmaster kit as finally sold the last. But went to all three other LGS brick & mortars to discover what was told is true, no more retail bumpfire locally.

All say it's due to the high school and college kids organized walk outs protesting sales of rifles, especially AR's, to 18 year olds and bumpfire. They claim they are in fear of someone coming in the school any day with a "legal machinegun" and killing everyone. Of course the press is eating it up so the stores are purposely trying to calm the waters. My guess is the Benjamin Franklin quote: "Those who would*give up*essential*Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither*Liberty*nor Safety." is not taught in government schools anymore and why private schools, church schools and home schooling has become so popular around these parts. No way I would have put kids through public school, I did a short stint in private, transfered into public where was two years ahead of other kids, stayed till 8th grade then back to private school to discover even with straight A's taking advanced classes was three years behind and we got to bring guns on campus.
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Old March 17, 2018, 18:34   #30
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If there ever comes a time, when normal folks need or even want to carry a full automatic rifle/carbine in this country, I would expect they will be laying about waiting to be picked up all over the country.

Full auto has its place, in jungles where the cover is so thick you can't see 30 feet in front of you, maybe in clearing houses, and for keeping certain large areas of open terrain from being used by opposition forces, but other than that, semi works about perfectly in most situations.

Weapons firing on full auto also break and stop working far faster than weapons firing on semi auto rates of fire. Worst thing that can happen to a fellow in any gun battle, is having his firearm to stop working.
Have a pile of Slidefire stocks bought when found cheap. Built two, ran perfectly in any orientation ever tried but like binary, making some things work right takes specific tuning of rifle to device. Can just slap the stock on and it will work sporadically as post father up mentioned but if tune gas and buffer they will run like scalded apes. Only have one rifle left with Slidefire stock on it. Sold some right after Vegas during mini bubble and some soon after Florida shoot and mini bubble it created.

Binary is same, takes a little work to make it 100% reliable with all ammo, suppressor mounted or not. Using my shot timer can install a binary and make rifle run 650+ rounds per minute with occasional short stroke malfunction or bolt over rounds bouncing in magazine as it gets low on rounds and low tension on mag spring which many mistake for short stroking but when in reality gun is so overgassed it causes rounds to bounce as bolt moves and magazine doesn't get a round pushed fully to top when bolt comes forward to pick it up. Why I use adjustible gas and MGI Rate Reduction buffers in most of my binary rifles.

Quote:
The MGI® Rate & Recoil Reducing Buffer for the AR-15 / M4 / M16 family of weapons is a simple, self-adjusting, drop in unit that will reduce the rate of fire in your rifle with increased* reliability. The MGI® Buffer, which is completely mechanical (not hydraulic) will decrease the rate of fire and reduce the recoil while increasing your accuracy potential. The MGI® Buffer comes in a standard carbine length, but can also be used with the addition of the MGI® Rifle adapter.

The MGI Rate and Recoil Reducing Buffer for the AR-15 Carbine is designed to reduce a select-fire rifle's cyclic rate by over 300 rounds per minute for greater controllability when firing in the fully automatic mode. For the average shooter with a semi-auto only AR-15, it can also significantly reduce the firearm's felt recoil impulse. The MGI Buffer utilizes a mechanical system as opposed to a hydraulic one, and adjusts automatically to the individual firearm it is installed in. It does not require the use of weak springs or anything which can jeopardize reliability. The reduction in felt recoil increases accuracy potential and allows for quicker follow up shots if needed.
When I get a binary rifle tuned like a symphony orchestra it will usually run 400 to 550 rpm with the MGI mechanical buffer smooth as butter. Have had many people with binary triggers shoot my builds and can't understand why it's a night and day difference. Almost always use a curly gas tube though many call them a gimmic, if a longer gas tube didn't make a difference there would not be so many different gas lengths though dwell time due to barrel length has more to with gas system length needs than anything. I put an adjustable gas block on front, curly gas tube behind it then use a Tubbs Flatwire buffer spring with the MGI buffer, tune the gas and rifles act like nice little machines that run 100% whether can is snapped on or off. 400 to 500 round per minute rate of fire is plenty fast enough to run an AR especially if it's reliable and holds its point of aim without climbing or twisting in your hands.

Have two binary rifles coming into LGS that owner did and are not reliable without can. I am going to fix them using parts from store inventory then let him shoot his next to a couple of my MGI equipped rifles then tell him he is a dealer so once he drops one or two in his rifles will probably appear on peg boards of shop along with their adjustible gas tubes. Can swap a rifle with front sight tower installed with taper pins to adjustible gas in five minutes once remove handguards. Have a couple of Pametto 11.5" complete uppers purchased on a super daily deal that just popped off the handguards, drove out the pin holding gas tube, replaced with MGI adjustible gas tube, pinned the suppressor, dropped on lowers with binary triggers, Tubbs Flatwire springs, MGI buffers so whether slow very precisely aimed fire or put dot on center of target and dump a magazine they run better than any of the M16's I have fired.

I like binary better than full auto. It's basically a two shot burst which have option of running it fast as want or are able. Only M16 ever shot that will stack up was set up as safe, single and three shot burst. Thought the three to five shot burst rifles were best idea Uncle Sugar ever came up with for most troops. Only the SAW's need full auto fire at squad level. I have never been in a jungle but the thick rhododendron of the southeastern mountains is so thick only way to move at times is belly crawl and wiggle through fighting it like a million hands trying to grab and hold you back. Have seen a thick rhododendron thicket turn a full run black bear.

This is how 20 rounds are supposed to be used if in "leave me the F alone" mode:

https://youtu.be/YcZG8UTiFPk

My one and only contribution to Utube thus far but have tons of raw footage from my high speed video cameras purchased a year ago to build a series of Utube videos but some material am not sure needs to be on the net and much is already there. Some better than others but used my old phone for the short clip. Amazingly the AR 10's run just as sweet in binary and yesterday did my first fifty round drum mag run with one of the DPMS AR 10's. It was a blast from operators end but imagine someone on the receiving end would feel like it was their worst nightmare right up till a burst dug through their cover or forced them into open or allowed me to flank them and lay it to them.

Buy end of session pretty much had myself and rifles settled into a series of ten round comtrolled bursts that just chewed the ever living hell out of a bunch of unsplit chunks of firewood had set up along a fallen tree I have flat sided with a chainsaw to create a table to sit my logs on their ends with a red clay bank behind them. Set the little range up just for testing and practicing binary fire as the local WMA range officers don't seem to like a guy blazing away with binary rifles for a couple hours. Have 5.56 SBR binary, 6.8 SBR binary, both in 18" barrels and now the pair of AR 10's. One has 1-6x with red dot on top and other has ATN night vision. The first sits next to my recliner in case I don't like whoever comes up on front porch and force me to get out of my chair. Other now lives beside my headboard in case hear a bump in the dark can select between AR 15 with 16" WOA barrel and ATN Gen 2+ CGT 6x that shoots 5/8" MOA or go all crazy with the 3-15x ATN X Sight in 7.62 but Slidefire is in the vault as other than a lead hose range toy it's kind of useless next to a well set up Franklin trigger.

Putting binary in lots of my non "target grade" poodle shooters and soon as can get my hands on one of the new H&K binary trigger packs one of the H&K 91's is going binary so can lay behind a big German monster and lay down fire like a monkey on meth. I never even wanted a drum mag for AR 15's or AR 10 in 7.62 NATO till worked out binary triggers and now they seem to go together. Built a dedicated AR with 18" hammer forged heavy profile barrel with melonite treatment just to soak up the abuse of repeated binary fire and from its bipod with a suppressor wife has become a damn scary woman who I can hold down her side of the house if it's down to just us when the zombies show up. Honestly, we probably should all pull our binary videos from Utube and stop talking about it and try to act like it doesn't exist so the peace freaks don't notice it.
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Old March 17, 2018, 19:01   #31
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My guess is the Benjamin Franklin quote: "Those who would*give up*essential*Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither*Liberty*nor Safety." is not taught in government schools anymore
It was taught in my classes for 17 years. In fact, that very quote was written on my classroom whiteboard. Along with “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”. And I didn't mind explaining it too.
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Old March 17, 2018, 20:37   #32
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It was taught in my classes for 17 years. In fact, that very quote was written on my classroom whiteboard. Along with “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”. And I didn't mind explaining it too.
Many of these sheep have no idea, one, the majority never DEMANDS a damn thing in a constitutional republic, and two, in case they forget number one, the people in this constitutional republic are armed to the teeth and are not to be messed with.

Democracy is simple mob rule.
Armed citizens have a long history of dealing with mobs in a most brutal manner.

I love these dimwits screaming, one man one vote, we'll take over and do anything we like in our democracy.

These poor people can't get anything right!
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Old March 18, 2018, 09:08   #33
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Many of these sheep have no idea, one, the majority never DEMANDS a damn thing in a constitutional republic, and two, in case they forget number one, the people in this constitutional republic are armed to the teeth and are not to be messed with.

Democracy is simple mob rule. Armed citizens have a long history of dealing with mobs in a most brutal manner.

I love these dimwits screaming, one man one vote, we'll take over and do anything we like in our democracy. These poor people can't get anything right!
Older I get, sicker wife gets the less I give a flying F what happens if American society goes to war with itself. During the post Trump win protests coast to coast the folks in Atlanta went crazy. About 700 of them walked out in 18 lane area where I-75 & I-85 merge going through downtown Atlanta and sat down in middle of the interstate. Damn cops blocked the road to "protect" them. They should have posted on the message panels north and south of the city saying the I-285 bypass was closed to truck traffic, all tractor trailers use main road through the city and seen how fast those morons could get out of the road as a bunch of half asleep truckers came through downtown at 80 mph.

Had every spare shooter from SWAT teams around the state on roofs of buildings to protect the cops as they clashed some with protestor though cops backed up if confronted rather than push forward. Would have been perfect if they had done as law allows, second a cop seems to be in danger the SWAT guys remove threat. The ensuing chaos would have looked like a David Tubbs video of shooting baboons. One night of protesting gone way bad and would have been end of it instead of every weekend through and after inauguration.

Edit:
Lived in the south for 55 of 55 years. Never have I ridden by a group of people shooting and not stopped and said hello are others welcome to play and get a now. Working a job site in rural nowhere area between Jefferson & Pendergrass and heard continuous gunfire in the distance. As leaving and following GPS directions saw the source, about a ten cars in big field with a dozen or so adults and half dozen youth. Stopped in road and saved, they saved back so pulled in and said had new rifle in truck (6.8 finished yesterday) and asked if they would mind me shooting just enough rounds to verify my optic or if wanted had several guns and several hundred rounds willing to share. Very overweight female with cigarette hanging out side of mouth said this is private property and needed to leave. Apologized for being a bother and went on my way. That is a lifetime first so just texted client, asked if o.k. to sight in rifle at job site. It's a 600 are tract of raw land with perfect ten foot red clay bank cut by grading equipment and he replied of course. Now setting up target stand as keep in truck and once sighted in think a few binary mag dumps from a 13.7" 6.8 with Noveske Flaming Pig should get their attention. GPS says we are less than 1/4 mile apart through the woods.
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Old March 24, 2018, 05:44   #34
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Bend over..

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Old March 24, 2018, 09:19   #35
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If they pull this one off, it'll set a precedent for just about ANY device to become a machine gun, simply because they saw it is.
I totally agree! If they do this then this country does not need a congress nor senate but only a King....
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Old March 24, 2018, 12:22   #36
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Bend over..

Twitter shut down my account with my posted response to this yesterday.

I had only made one prior comment, and then wham, bam, go away boy!

Must have been something I said.
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Old March 24, 2018, 17:57   #37
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This legal conundrum, will confound the mg issue for some time to come.

A lower court will obviously find that the intent of the MG law, and ATF rules and regs, was to ban full auto fire, but the law as written, was wrong and inadequate to cover all situations, and that the law needs to be rewritten, but in the meanwhile the Court WILL uphold the newly invented and written, bump stock and device ban, and the ATF gun rules...........calling it an emergency situation.

A higher court may decline to hear the appeal or not. But the danger of allowing an Agency to write law is a bit too big to simply roll over and play dead. SCOTUS may get involved.

In the meanwhile, I sense that the gun owning public has had it with the snowflakes and the Government, and will now do damn well what it wants to do from now on in the back rooms, like a real resistance does.

When any AW Ban law becomes a joke, due to general non compliance, as in NYS and Connecticut, and "ghost guns" become very common,........ and gun sales spike..............it is very very bad for the Government's authority on bump stocks and whatever the new rule covers. It may even cover "bad behavior with a semi auto weapon........belt loop bad behavior. I am serious.

What are they going to do? go out and test every semi out there........ and Levi's and Wranglers? 350 million guns at last report. 40 years to test them all?

That NRA Army actually exists, simply waiting for the day of liberation.


God damn them all from now on.

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Old March 25, 2018, 10:57   #38
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Basically, what is proposed is this:

A person who shoots or fires ANY firearm rapidly enough to simulate a machinegun, no matter if revolver, semiautomatic firearm or lever action/pump firearm with or without any devices, is now declared to be a machine gun, for cause, as is the weapon. Pants with belt loops or belts themselves may also be devices that are prohibited.


One reported, or recorded incident or acting like a machine gun, is sufficient Prima Facie evidence to be reported the nearest Federal authority, as an unregistered class 3 weapon.

Once a machine gun.......... always a machine gun, is the rule

Machine-gun (persons), who have not paid a $200 Transfer Tax and who have not properly registered as a class 3 weapon, will be arrested and prosecuted and imprisoned as an public emergency.

TELL ME WHERE THIS IS INCORRECT.
That is what banning bumpstocks and trigger devices, whatever they are, is doing........banning persons.

NFADLR should comment.

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Old March 25, 2018, 23:32   #39
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Basically, what is proposed is this:

A person who shoots or fires ANY firearm rapidly enough to simulate a machinegun, no matter if revolver, semiautomatic firearm or lever action/pump firearm with or without any devices, is now declared to be a machine gun, for cause, as is the weapon. Pants with belt loops or belts themselves may also be devices that are prohibited.


One reported, or recorded incident or acting like a machine gun, is sufficient Prima Facie evidence to be reported the nearest Federal authority, as an unregistered class 3 weapon.

Once a machine gun.......... always a machine gun, is the rule

Machine-gun (persons), who have not paid a $200 Transfer Tax and who have not properly registered as a class 3 weapon, will be arrested and prosecuted and imprisoned as an public emergency.

TELL ME WHERE THIS IS INCORRECT.
That is what banning bumpstocks and trigger devices, whatever they are, is doing........banning persons.

NFADLR should comment.
so the only means by which to comply is to decriminalize/deregulate all machine guns, rendering bumpstocks a non issue.
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