The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > General Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 23, 2019, 18:23   #1
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Range Report – Garand: three bullets and .308: Varget vs IMR4895

Range Report – Garand: three bullets and .308: Varget vs IMR4895

Yesterday I waited for the temperatures to warm up above freezing, and I dashed out to do a little ammo testing.

Two main objectives:
1. Find out whether the Widener’s 145 FMJ’s I got a few years ago shoot appreciably worse in the Garand than 150 SMK’s or 168 SMK’s
2. Find out whether there is any difference in performance of IMR 4895 vs. Varget in the DPMS 16” .308 carbine.

Conclusions:
1. Not enough difference between bullets to matter in the Garand
2. Varget may actually shoot better than IMR 4895 in the DPMS gun.


TRUST YOUR DOPE
I had wanted to take the time to zero the rifles to the center of the target for taking pics. I used a separate target with a Shoot-n-See center to confirm the zero for the Garand. My notes said basic dope was 15-up and 2 left. So, I dialed that onto the gun. I fired two shots on the Shoot-n-See, and one was a 12 o’clock 8, and the other was a very wide 12 o’clock 9. So, I came down three clicks. You will see from the targets, I should have just trusted the dope in my notebook. All three Garand groups are low on-paper. But, whatever, a group is a group I guess. Same applies for the DPMS rifle. I thought I had a pretty good zero for that scope. But, the groups don't lie. My "known zero" for that scope left a lot to be desired. There wasn't time to "dial it in." I had to shoot my groups quickly, or run out of light.

I SUCK WITH IRON SIGHTS
My uncorrected eyesight keeps getting worse. I’ve tried to get custom “shooting glasses.” What seems like it should work to improve sight-picture usually makes it worse. So, I shoot with uncorrected vision when I shoot iron sights. What I actually see when I’m shooting iron sights is an absolute joke. Some days, the aiming black just completely disappears, and all I can do is hold in the middle of the big 6’ x 6’ paper square. Because its nearly anybody’s guess where I’m holding elevation with iron-sights, I normally shoot a group with the Garand that strings elevation. All three targets reflect exactly that. About all I can really do for evaluation of the “accuracy” is to judge the WIDTH of the groups because I generally suck at shooting elevation with Garand sights.

CHEAP BULLETS vs. PREMIUM BULLETS
I think I can safely say that I am unable to shoot the Garand with sufficient precision to discern the difference in accuracy between the Widener’s 145 (I suspect PMC-brand, but can’t be for sure) versus the Sierra MatchKings. I guess I’m OK with that. I wasn’t looking forward to investing MatchKing money in ammo that is just going to get burned in a rack-grade Garand.

COLD WEATHER AND WINTER LIGHT
Insofar as preparation for the event went, I did the best I could, given the weather situation. I really didn’t want to wait for “some other day” to test. Conditions were dry enough. Ground was frozen hard as a rock. The cold weather sure kept the Fudds away. I had the whole place to myself. Considering the club has 1000 members, and is only 34 miles from the White House, these “Omega Man Days” are more common than you would expect. I got to the range later than I would have liked, so lighting could have been better. Shadows from the treeline had already reached the targets by the time I started firing at around 1530 hrs. I knew I was going to have to shoot fast or I was going to lose light for shooting. It worked out OK. I actually hold better elevation in slightly dim light. It’s the really bright light where the aiming-black just sometimes disappears entirely. That’s not to say I can see in the dark. So, I had to shoot fast, and I felt rushed. Shoot the groups… hustle downrange… record the results with the camera… hustle back to the firing line… get back into the shooting coat and the sling…. yada-yada…

VARGET vs. IMR-4895
For a quarter-century my “accuracy load” for .308 Winchester has been 41.5 grains IMR-4895 with a 168 SMK. That load is still a very good load, and I heartily recommend it. That said, I think I’m done with IMR-4895. I’m going to just stock Varget from now on. I have loads for the 5.56 that use Varget, and those loads are super-accurate. Yesterday’s testing with Varget in the .308 shows that Varget is AT LEAST (if not more-so) as accurate as IMR-4895. I kind of hate to say goodbye to my old friend IMR-4895. But, I don’t want to stock two gunpowders that are so similar just for the sake of nostalgia. And I’m not going to spend any more time with load development for 5.56. Its Varget from here-on-out with the 5.56 for me. I’m sure IMR-4895 probably shoots pretty good too in 5.56. I think my initial “loyalty” to IMR powders had to do with their affiliation with DuPont. Some of you know my dad worked 42 years for DuPont, and he played a big role in development of Kevlar. Even got his name on one of the patents http://www.google.sr/patents/US3849074 (continuous polymerization process of Kevlar fiber – fancy expression for WECSOG’ing a way to keep the machine from seizing-up every 5 minutes while it was squirting out fiber). DuPont divested itself from IMR gunpowders, so really I could give a shit about brand loyalty to whoever owns IMR now.

GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY FER CHRISSAKES!
Yeah. Do it. I’m getting no younger. Right shoulder hurts aplenty. Probably from combination of snow-shoveling, resizing brass, letting the Garand pound it, and pounding the pud. Mostly the pud I guess. I should probably add a poll. Really, get out there and shoot those guns. It’s OK to take pictures of them, and jabber about them on the internet. But for me, if I don’t get to shoot it – and shoot it OFTEN – I don’t want to be responsible for storing it.

If you study the third Garand target hard, you can see a couple extra holes that don't have golf tees. The pasters and target faces were frozen, so pasters weren't sticking worth crap. By the third Garand target, pasters from prior groups were falling off the target-face. So, I had to kind of guess at which holes were new holes and which holes were old holes that had lost their pasters by the third go-round on that target.

Pics that follow are the best I can do. Throw everything in the car, drive like a lunatic through outbound DC afternoon northern Virginia traffic. Skid into the range. Unload everything as fast as I can. Shoot the targets as fast as I can. And try to fugk-up as little as possible. That’s all I got. That’s the best I got.










__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

Last edited by W.E.G.; January 23, 2019 at 18:30.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 19:06   #2
357ross
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 47543
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 5,250
Varget has always given great results in everything I tried it in and at least in my experience, burns much cleaner.
357ross is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 19:32   #3
meltblown
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 34604
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SA Tx
Posts: 14,127
Yeah, Slower shoots better with 168 SMK is what I'm seeing. A wet fart could make a difference. May try the load. Still need to get my work bench lumber all together this weekend. I aint loading on no stinking desk anymore. Where you get them SMK boolits from?
__________________
Giving people the benefit of the means it’s ok to screw you over.

Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.
meltblown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 20:31   #4
boman
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 395
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In
Posts: 506
another good load with that bullet in 308 is 42 grains of RL-15. It's supposed to be a little more temp sensitive than varget but no issues here.

Steve
__________________
FFL since 1980---NRA Endowment

Last edited by boman; January 23, 2019 at 20:45.
boman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 20:49   #5
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltblown View Post
Where you get them SMK boolits from?

All the vendors that list them on their websites have them in stock.
Powder Valley is generally the least-expensive.

I got this particular batch in 1996 from a Commercial Row vendor at Camp Perry. I bought a bunch back then. Then I quit competing with .30 caliber. My current supply will probably last me until 2026.

If I were buying more 168's right now, I would consider the Hornady 168's.
Compare 24 cents for Hornady 168 vs 37 cents for Sierra 168. For most mortals, I doubt you could tell the difference.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 20:58   #6
moonbat60
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17000
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 5,659
As much as I like Varget, I found lot to lot inconsistencies with it.

IMR4895 works better for me, especially in .308.
moonbat60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2019, 21:03   #7
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonbat60 View Post
As much as I like Varget, I found lot to lot inconsistencies with it.
"Inconsistencies?"

__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 02:13   #8
Andy the Aussie
Dinosaur
Bronze Contributor
 
Andy the Aussie's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 216
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down Under
Posts: 16,057
Once you go Aussie (AR2208) you never go back.....
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
Andy the Aussie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 06:31   #9
1769
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 66611
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wells, Vermont, USA
Posts: 1,174
I've been using 44.5 grs. of Varget behind a 168 gr Bullet. I've used Nosler, Sierra and Hornady. They all shoot great out of my FAL. I really like the Nosler but I don't think I'll ever find a deal like the one I got, when I bought this last batch. So I will probably stick with Hornady.
1769 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 12:37   #10
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 4,828
Quote:
Range Report – Garand: three bullets and .308: Varget vs IMR4895
So, you used 47 gr. Varget for 308 M1 and 147, 150, and 168's...?
And used 41.5 gr. Varget for your 308 DPMS with 168's.

Is your M1 tested a .30-06?

I read this as a test of 308 only, and I know you have a 308 M1 special.

Please clarify. Thanks.

PS: please mention your favored 223/Varget load for 77 grainers again.
__________________
Wears a backpack.
Rounder upper at MidwayUSA.
Favorite color: ham
Wife's favorite color: glitter

Last edited by TenTea; January 24, 2019 at 12:44.
TenTea is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 13:33   #11
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
My Garand used in this test is 30-06.

Yes. I used the SAME POWDER CHARGE (47.0 grains Varget) for all three bullets. 47.0 grains is not a wimpy charge. But, according to Quickload, you don't hit the 50,000 PSI of M2 ball ammo until you put 50.0 grains Varget behind a 150-grain bullet.

A few details:

DETAIL ONE
  • Pay attention to the "shank seat depth." Shank seat depth is a different (lesser) number than "seating depth."
  • If you are shooting boat-tail bullets, as I am, the ass-end of the bullet hangs down into the case, but does not engage the neck. If you examine M2 ball ammo you will see that very little of the ass-end of the bullet actually extends into the case neck.
  • I'm not for absolute-certain, but I think about 0.022" of the flat-base bullet used in M2 ball actually engages the case neck. That small number impresses me as about the absolute minimum for bullet/neck engagement. Maybe all the more reason why genuine M2 ammo has the bullets glued into the neck with sealant.
  • If possible, I prefer more engagement of the bullet and the case neck. In my opinion, more engagement provides for more consistent neck-tension, and reduces the chances of the bullet being knocked cockeyed during handling and feeding.
  • I chose to set the SHANK-SEAT-DEPTH of each bullet to 0.28" As a consequence, the 168-grain cartridges are longer than the 145's and 150's. Just based on my experience loading .30 caliber all these many years, 0.28" seems just right to me.

DETAIL TWO
If you look closely at the targets, you may wish to ponder the interplay of these two factors:
  • Time the bullet spends in the barrel before exiting muzzle (Muzzle becomes more elevated - due to recoil - before bullet leaves muzzle?)
  • Effect of gravity during the time of flight (Can we agree that that all bullets fall toward the earth at same rate irrespective of size of bullet?)

CHAMBER PRESSURE
Per Quickload, the max-pressure of each respective load is:
145: 38,786 PSI
150: 39,886 PSI
168: 45,874 PSI

TIME SPENT IN BORE
Per Quickload the bore-travel/exit-times of each respective bullet pushed by 47.0 grains Varget are:
145: 1.293 millseconds
150: 1.326 milliseconds
168: 1.310 milliseconds

TIME OF FLIGHT
200-yard time of flight of each respective bullet is:
145: 0.2483 seconds
150: 0.2498 seconds
168: 0.2493 seconds

VERTICAL DROP OVER 200 YARDS
According to Quicktarget, the vertical drop of each respective bullet during a 200-yard flight is:
145: 11.2"
150: 11.4"
168: 11.4"

PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES
So, I basically defy anybody to tell me that there is ANY practical difference in expected point of impact for each of the three respective loads tested. I'm sorry. No way I'm going to hold 0.2" (0.1 MOA) consistency elevation with a Garand at 200 yards. I'm already stringing groups about 6 inches (3 MOA) elevation just because, and because my vision is that bad, and because my hold is not so great either. If you look at the targets, you might conclude that there is some ACTUAL difference in group location. Well, actually there is. But, why? Is it because the light was changing? Is it because my meds were wearing-off or kicking-in? Is it because I was getting punchy and numb from hugging that pile-driver on a pogo-stick? Is it becaue my eyes were doing things? All of the above? Some of the above? None of the above? Gentlemen, THIS is why elevation zeroes "change" from day-to-day. It would help to be young and in good-shape. I am neither. I'm doing my best to at least not let the latter degrade any faster than nature designed. In the meantime, my elevation zeroes will wander.

JUST SAY NO TO THE SHIT-SHOW
At distances longer than 200 yards, some of the differences between the three loads may start to show up. I would expect the less-expensive bullets to show some greater instability over longer distance, and as the bullets decellerate. Or maybe not. In any event, by the time I'm shooting a rack-grade Garand at something like 600 yards with my eyes, the whole thing turns into pretty-much a shit-show no matter how you slice it. Probably ALL-OVER the 7-ring. "Aint nobody got time for that."
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

Last edited by W.E.G.; January 24, 2019 at 14:13.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 13:50   #12
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTea View Post
PS: please mention your favored 223/Varget load for 77 grainers again.
I have two loads for my 5.56 ammo.

Magazine length: 2.250"
24.2 grains Varget with a 75-grain or 77-grain bullet

Long-length (too long for magazine) 2.400"
24.4 grains Varget with an 80-grain bullet

Be forwarned that each of these loads is a slightly compressed load. As such, the bullet seating stem will leave a small indentation on the bullet as the bullet is compressed into the case. I am absolutely certain this small deformation of the nose of the bullet has no detrimental effect on PRACTICAL accuracy. If the deformation is causing 0.1 MOA degradation of accuracy, I am incapable of perceiving such a difference. Moreover, this opinion has been tested, and is shared universally, among competitive highpower rifle shooters.

The engagement surface seating stem on my Hornady seating die was kind of rough (toolmarks). I did polish the engagement surface so it wouldn't leave a rippled mark on the bullet. But it still leaves the indentation you see here. Sorry for the fuzzy pic. I can usually feel the indentation ever so slightly if I run my fingernail across it. The magazine-length ammo gets indented worse than the long ammo.


__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

Last edited by W.E.G.; January 24, 2019 at 14:14.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 14:26   #13
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
I have a backup load for the above 5.56 loads.

The backup load uses TAC.

I figure Varget is from Australia and TAC is from Belgium. Each is suitable for 5.56. Not likely that the respective arsenals producing those two powders will blow up in the same time-frame.

TAC load is same as Varget above, except reduce each powder charge by 0.3 grains.

The 80-grain Varget load drops 122.7 inches at 600 yards.
The 80-grain TAC load drops 121.0 inches at 600 yards.

The 80-grain pressures for Varget and TAC are 56,845 PSI and 56,695 PSI respectively.

That's one-third MOA difference. I can't hold that good. Not even close.
Pressures are around 5,000 PSI below SAAMI max. So, some room to breathe if the day is really hot.

Note that TAC is NOT a good substitute for VARGET in 30-06. TAC is a ball-shaped powder, and takes up considerably less space in the case. Arguably, you could run into a powder "positioning" problem if you put TAC in a 30-06 case. There are no "positioning" issues with TAC in .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO or 5.56.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 14:34   #14
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 4,828
Thank you, kind sir!
__________________
Wears a backpack.
Rounder upper at MidwayUSA.
Favorite color: ham
Wife's favorite color: glitter
TenTea is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 15:04   #15
hagar
Registered
 
hagar's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 228
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 9,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonbat60 View Post
As much as I like Varget, I found lot to lot inconsistencies with it.

IMR4895 works better for me, especially in .308.
So did I, at 600 yards I experienced much more vertical stringing with Varget shooting the 75 Amax than with RL15. If I could have just one powder for 5.56 and 7.62, it would be RL15.
hagar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2019, 16:57   #16
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagar View Post
...at 600 yards I experienced much more vertical stringing with Varget...
How MUCH "vertical stringing?"
How much velocity-differential does it take to cause 1 MOA stringing at 600 yards?
Did you separately verify with a chronograph that the velocity actually varied that much?

I haven't chronograph-tested much lately. I realized that even my worst ammo shot to within less than my wobble area. So, I pretty much just said "fugk it" insofar as chronograph testing goes.

PREVIOUS CHRONOGRAPH WITH VARGET
Back in 2012, I did chrono this 5.56 data for 80 SMK and 23.4gr VARGET. Definitely slow by comparison to my current preferred 600-yard load.

Anyhow, velocity Standard Deviation of the last 10 shots was 17 fps (which equals a vertical dispersion 1.7 inches - which is about a quarter minute of angle). Even with a telescopic sight, on my best day I hold no better than 1 minute of angle elevation - or for that matter windage.

1 MOA "STRINGING?"
Now, if we look at extreme-spread over the sixteen-shot test (not sure why 16 shots - maybe that's all the ammo I brought or maybe I had some range-bum's myth churning in my brain that day), we see an extreme variation of a whopping 74 fps. That's going to be 6.8" at 600 yards. So just barely over 1 MOA variation in elevation going by extreme-spread. I guess if you want to take anything worthwhile from that data, its that velocity started to creep up during the string. If you are such a hard-holder that you are "managing" elevation changes of less than a minute of angle, the moral of the story is: If your elevation seems to be creeping upward during the string, it really is the equipment, and not you. So turn your sight down a click if you start creeping-up elevation. Just be sure you understand, that high 8 you just shot is not the ammo. You did that. Or something extremely weird happened - like a chunk of jacket material hung-up in the barrel or some other unlikely event. Much more likely, you just shot it there - even though it "looked good" through the sights.

Just barely over 1 MOA extreme spread at 600 yards may be unacceptable to some shooters. Not me. I can live with that. I can not only LIVE with that. I'm HAPPY with that. Remember, the 10-ring on the 600-yard target is 12 inches tall. If I lose an X, and have to settle for a ten, because of "shoddy ammo" I better win the match. If I don't win the match, it won't be on account of the ammo.

HOT GUN - HOT AMMO
As I think back, and I notice the notes "hot gun - hot ammo," I think I was concerned about possible over-pressure due to the gun cooking in the sun and the ammo cooking in the sun. So, I now kind of remember that I deliberately cooked the gun and the ammo in the hot sun before that chronograph session.

"COOKING A ROUND"
Since that session, I separately DE-BUNKED the range-bum myth that "cooking a round in the chamber" could cause significant velocity variation. That myth is complete bullshit. The most we could get the temp of a round to rise in the chamber was 16 degrees. And only then after doing a 30-round mag-dump, and letting the test probe (using a Fluke thermometer probe embedded in a 5.56 round) sit for two and a half minutes. Obviously, the chamber was way hotter after the mag dump than the chamber ever would be during a 20-minute, 20-round string of slow-fire prone during a highpower rifle match. Please tell anybody who counsels you to "jack that round out" that I said they could go eat shit. Its a lie.

FIRE AND ICE
As for the change in zero of really cold ammo versus really hot ammo, we separately tested ammo that had been kept under ice, versus ammo that was laid on the hood of the car after driving it like we'd stole it. Hottest the ammo got was about 120 degrees. We got about 100 fps variation between the cold ammo and the hot ammo. So, you can see from the info presented above, that could cook you all the way from the center of the X-ring to just out of the 10 ring. But, who mixes frozen ammo and hood-of-car ammo in the middle of a match? Pretty much more bullshit. I still keep my ammo under a towel when shooting the 600 on really hot days. Not because I think heating the ammo twenty or thirty degrees changes the zero enough to matter, but because once the ammo gets over 100-degrees, its just damn uncomfortable to hold with my fingers!

Oh, and by the way, during the hot-hood-of-the-car/ice test, the velocity change for powder touted by the vendor as "EXTREME" (namely Varget) because it was supposed to be "not temperature sensitive" was actually still significant. By contrast, powder with a range-bum reputation for being "temperature sensitive" (namely IMR-4895) had a velocity change about the same as the "EXTREME" powder.

You can read all about this in the thread at
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/i...a-hot-chamber/



__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.

Last edited by W.E.G.; January 25, 2019 at 09:40.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2019, 03:10   #17
Andy the Aussie
Dinosaur
Bronze Contributor
 
Andy the Aussie's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 216
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down Under
Posts: 16,057
I load 45gns of AR2208 (known to you f'ners as "Varget") under 165gn Noslers in both my .308 rifles. Both shoot exceptionally well with it so I feel no need to mess with it. Incidentally, my current in use batch of AR2208 was made in 1987
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
Andy the Aussie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2019, 08:12   #18
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
And the durability/longevity of Varget!

I recently had to throw away an unopened pound of Accurate Arms 4350. When I opened it, the odor was revolting, and the stick-powder had turned-into a single clump. Plastic bottle was about 20 years old. Stored indoors in humidity and temperature controlled environment.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 26, 2019, 10:56   #19
moonbat60
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17000
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 5,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagar View Post
So did I, at 600 yards I experienced much more vertical stringing with Varget shooting the 75 Amax than with RL15. If I could have just one powder for 5.56 and 7.62, it would be RL15.
I use Varget for .308 reloads only, and TAC for .308 and mostly for .223.

Regarding my .223 reloads, I am limited to 69 / 70gr.

I used Varget in .308 with 175gr. Berger OTM and SMK, but had too much difference in MV.
moonbat60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 05, 2019, 10:19   #20
Jarhead504
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 65022
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Orleans Area,LA
Posts: 3,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
And the durability/longevity of Varget!

I recently had to throw away an unopened pound of Accurate Arms 4350. When I opened it, the odor was revolting, and the stick-powder had turned-into a single clump.
Why did you throw it away? You could use it to start fires or as a fertilizer.

Great posts too, Thanks for the info.

Jarhead
Jarhead504 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 05, 2019, 11:06   #21
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 15,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarhead504 View Post
...

Great posts too, Thanks for the info.
I agree, Gary.

Thanks for taking the time to report it all. I must admit that I have a hard time working up the enthusiasm to expend as much energy whacking away at the keyboard anymore (or, perhaps I never could... ).

But I'm off to the range again today to sight-in another couple of 18" .223 Wylde chambered ARs with Wolf Gold factory ammo and an M-193 spec reload using the IMI M-193 bullet. Hopefully, the wind will be no worse than the 50mph stuff yesterday . (If you wait for the perfect day, you'll never shoot. And it does cut down on the numbers of morons you have to deal with at the range... ).

Later...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 05, 2019, 12:27   #22
hagar
Registered
 
hagar's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 228
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 9,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
And the durability/longevity of Varget!

I recently had to throw away an unopened pound of Accurate Arms 4350. When I opened it, the odor was revolting, and the stick-powder had turned-into a single clump. Plastic bottle was about 20 years old. Stored indoors in humidity and temperature controlled environment.
I have about 1/4 of an 8 pound can of AA4350 remaining. I bought this in 1990, and powder is still good. Only use it for 30/06 hunting rifle loads, 25/06, 243 and 22/250 (yes, 38.5 grains with 64gr WW PP bullets, one of my most accurate loads).
hagar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11, 2019, 08:45   #23
bill3542
Registered
 
bill3542's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5675
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Indiana Co.PA
Posts: 1,855
odd that breaking down in 20 years, so far i've only ever had one break down. it was a can of IMR 4895 from the early 1960s, nasty odor and rust red.

i've got a can of Hercules 2400 from 1964 that's still good, price is 4.80 a pound.
__________________
BILL H
bill3542 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11, 2019, 18:58   #24
Hebrew Battle Rifle
Horses Ass
Bronze Contributor
 
Hebrew Battle Rifle's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5777
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3542 View Post

i've got a can of Hercules 2400 from 1964
Why?
__________________
THANK YOU JESUS
Hebrew Battle Rifle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11, 2019, 22:50   #25
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
The AA4350 had a very “off” odor.

Not sure how else to describe it, except I theorize we evolved to be able to smell decay as an adverse attribute of all manner of things. I have an overly keen sense of smell since a general anesthesia surgery about 10 years ago. I can drive through a neighborhood, and tell you what’s cooking in the houses I pass. If my neighbor lights a cigarette in his driveway across the street, I can smell it in my basement, with all the doors and windows closed, before he finishes. The weirdest thing was when I started to be able to smell deer in the woods before I could see or hear them. I think the anesthesiologist scoured some sort of callous off my smeller apparatus, and laid it bare.

The AA4350 had also turned into a single clump. It broke apart easily enough when I shook the bottle. But not worth it to “see what would happen” by loading it.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12, 2019, 04:03   #26
bill3542
Registered
 
bill3542's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5675
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Indiana Co.PA
Posts: 1,855
HBR that can of 2400 was inherited after my dad passed in 2010... he was a avid reloader.
__________________
BILL H
bill3542 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 20:42   #27
STG_58_guy
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 65886
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
My Garand used in this test is 30-06.

Yes. I used the SAME POWDER CHARGE (47.0 grains Varget) for all three bullets. 47.0 grains is not a wimpy charge. But, according to Quickload, you don't hit the 50,000 PSI of M2 ball ammo until you put 50.0 grains Varget behind a 150-grain bullet.

A few details:

DETAIL ONE
  • Pay attention to the "shank seat depth." Shank seat depth is a different (lesser) number than "seating depth."
  • If you are shooting boat-tail bullets, as I am, the ass-end of the bullet hangs down into the case, but does not engage the neck. If you examine M2 ball ammo you will see that very little of the ass-end of the bullet actually extends into the case neck.
  • I'm not for absolute-certain, but I think about 0.022" of the flat-base bullet used in M2 ball actually engages the case neck. That small number impresses me as about the absolute minimum for bullet/neck engagement. Maybe all the more reason why genuine M2 ammo has the bullets glued into the neck with sealant.
  • If possible, I prefer more engagement of the bullet and the case neck. In my opinion, more engagement provides for more consistent neck-tension, and reduces the chances of the bullet being knocked cockeyed during handling and feeding.
  • I chose to set the SHANK-SEAT-DEPTH of each bullet to 0.28" As a consequence, the 168-grain cartridges are longer than the 145's and 150's. Just based on my experience loading .30 caliber all these many years, 0.28" seems just right to me.

DETAIL TWO
If you look closely at the targets, you may wish to ponder the interplay of these two factors:
  • Time the bullet spends in the barrel before exiting muzzle (Muzzle becomes more elevated - due to recoil - before bullet leaves muzzle?)
  • Effect of gravity during the time of flight (Can we agree that that all bullets fall toward the earth at same rate irrespective of size of bullet?)

CHAMBER PRESSURE
Per Quickload, the max-pressure of each respective load is:
145: 38,786 PSI
150: 39,886 PSI
168: 45,874 PSI

TIME SPENT IN BORE
Per Quickload the bore-travel/exit-times of each respective bullet pushed by 47.0 grains Varget are:
145: 1.293 millseconds
150: 1.326 milliseconds
168: 1.310 milliseconds

TIME OF FLIGHT
200-yard time of flight of each respective bullet is:
145: 0.2483 seconds
150: 0.2498 seconds
168: 0.2493 seconds

VERTICAL DROP OVER 200 YARDS
According to Quicktarget, the vertical drop of each respective bullet during a 200-yard flight is:
145: 11.2"
150: 11.4"
168: 11.4"

PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES
So, I basically defy anybody to tell me that there is ANY practical difference in expected point of impact for each of the three respective loads tested. I'm sorry. No way I'm going to hold 0.2" (0.1 MOA) consistency elevation with a Garand at 200 yards. I'm already stringing groups about 6 inches (3 MOA) elevation just because, and because my vision is that bad, and because my hold is not so great either. If you look at the targets, you might conclude that there is some ACTUAL difference in group location. Well, actually there is. But, why? Is it because the light was changing? Is it because my meds were wearing-off or kicking-in? Is it because I was getting punchy and numb from hugging that pile-driver on a pogo-stick? Is it becaue my eyes were doing things? All of the above? Some of the above? None of the above? Gentlemen, THIS is why elevation zeroes "change" from day-to-day. It would help to be young and in good-shape. I am neither. I'm doing my best to at least not let the latter degrade any faster than nature designed. In the meantime, my elevation zeroes will wander.

JUST SAY NO TO THE SHIT-SHOW
At distances longer than 200 yards, some of the differences between the three loads may start to show up. I would expect the less-expensive bullets to show some greater instability over longer distance, and as the bullets decellerate. Or maybe not. In any event, by the time I'm shooting a rack-grade Garand at something like 600 yards with my eyes, the whole thing turns into pretty-much a shit-show no matter how you slice it. Probably ALL-OVER the 7-ring. "Aint nobody got time for that."
Detail Two - I've often wondered about this. The gun can't rotate very much in a millisecond, but then it doesn't have to. The end of an FAL barrel only needs to about .006 inch for 1 moa change in point of impact. And I wonder if there is much a shooter can do to prevent that? I doubt it.

I've messed around with some free body diagrams and kinematic analysis on this. I think shock waves traveling down the barrel probably have as much if not more impact on ballistics than recoil.

As for gravity, yes and no. They definitely fall at the same rate. But they can get pushed by wind in weird ways depending on where the center of pressure is compared to the center of mass.

Thanks for the post. I love data.
__________________
...
...
I intend to enjoy all 120 years of my life. I just need to get that done before I'm 65.
STG_58_guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:49   #28
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by STG_58_guy View Post
Detail Two - I've often wondered about this. The gun can't rotate very much in a millisecond, but then it doesn't have to. The end of an FAL barrel only needs to about .006 inch for 1 moa change in point of impact.
It may well be that whatever is the angle of the barrel, at the moment the bullet departs the muzzle, is the SOLE controlling factor.

However, as you suggested, vibrations of the barrel may be a factor.

Yet, the factor I can't help but imagine has some relevance is this:
Does the force of the bullet being lifted during its travel during recoil of the rifle impart some additional upward impetus? Think of it as a "flip" or a "flick." Perhaps such flick or flip is essentially a "vibration" that is cast in a particular direction. As a peculiar comparison, if you fired the rifle with the buttstock inverted in your shoulder (gun upside down), wouldn't the muzzle of the rifle pivot under recoil in a DOWNWARD direction due to the shape of the (dare I use this word) "platform?" Would this "flick" the bullet in a downward direction?
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 22:23   #29
moonbat60
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17000
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 5,659
Ok, here we go:

One of my .308 pet loads with Varget used to be: 175gr SMK, 43.22gr. Varget, Lapua brass, BR2 primer.

MV of a 10 shot string: in fps
#1 2660
#2 2691 Avg 2691
#3 2670
#4 2694
#5 2677 Hi 2707
#6 2705 Lo 2660
#7 2701
#8 2701 SD 16
#9 2705 ES 47
#10 2707


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same components, just change of powder charge to IMR4895, 43.70gr.

#1 2709
#2 2712 Avg 2714
#3 2719
#4 2722 Hi 2722
#5 2711 Lo 2709

SD 5
ES 13

Chronograph used: Magnetospeed Sporter.

Rifle used: Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint .308, 26" bull barrel, 1:12 twist

Results obtained on indoor range at 75*F.
moonbat60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files