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Old March 21, 2019, 10:44   #1
meltblown
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Bug Out Body Armor. Thoughts?

Friend of mine is trying to get me to invest in BA. I look at the AR500 website and see a good deal on a carrier. About $125 but have no ideas about all the velcro pouches and such to carry your stuff. Then I guess you're going to need a couple of plates. A level 3+ curved 8x10 is $125 each.

So basically it would run $400 by the time it's all said and done. What do you guys do or have you just said screw it?
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Old March 21, 2019, 11:25   #2
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Several of us came into an entire con-ex box of used armor that came back after some Iíll-documented event off North America.

Free, on account of it was otherwise to be destroyed.

About half of it was garbage due to being soiled. Lots of the soiling was blood.

Some of it largely unblemished. I grabbed a few sets. Kept the cleanest for myself. The Kevlar is already heavy enough. Add plates, and it becomes just about ridiculous for any sort of out-and-about activity.

Donít even get me started on the shoulder pads, and groin protectors.

I promise, you get dolled-up in that shit, and you wonít be bugging very far.

BTW, if you get shot up while youíre bugginí in your $5,000 (or free) armor set, you gonna have a crew with you to collect your shot-up ass, and get you to a Level 1 trauma center within the Golden Hour? Bring a helicopter, and a pilot, and a couple medics with full kit.

I plan to just act like Iím crazy. Figure maybe they wonít figure Iím worth wasting ammo.
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Old March 21, 2019, 11:38   #3
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I have a pair of CATI multi curve level III plates in a Condor MOPC carrier, the curved plates fit well enough to be comfortable but my god they are HEAVY. Not likely to be wearing it for very far or very long or move fast. Haven't decided for sure but will likely be selling it off.

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Old March 21, 2019, 11:56   #4
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WEG is right

Body armor has uses but as bug out equipment it's useless at best and probably a negative for most people.

I have body armor but my gun shop is right beside my house. My shop will get hit sooner or later so I keep the body armor beside my AR. If time is critical, the AR gets picked up leaving the armor. If there's time, the armor gets donned.

As far as 'The Golden Hour', I may not need it as much as the other guy(s) if the plate takes a hit. And survival from getting hit is dependent on living in a modern, civilized world with an ambulance and hospital nearby.
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Old March 21, 2019, 12:01   #5
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Any reason why you'd be wearing BA here in the states, means that medical care is pretty much in the toilet, so why bother dying hot and worn out from lugging the crap?

Saying that, yes, got a couple sets of BA with plate armor.

Holding the homestead, not needing to move about, yea, maybe will be wearing it, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

An OD green T-shirt, one go to hell hat, decent pair of boots, cigar, man can do far worst in a war setting.
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Old March 21, 2019, 12:13   #6
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Maybe bug out is the wrong term. I'm not really going anywhere. Plenty of food here till the possums and deer run low. Water is my biggest issue. Too deep to drill affordably.

Here's the rig

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotion...ackage-od.html

And yes I do get it that even if you don't get shot in the vitals, that you're likely to die from just about any GS wound on the extremities without medical treatment and antibiotics. Just pondering is why I asked
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Old March 21, 2019, 12:21   #7
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Old March 21, 2019, 12:42   #8
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Maybe bug out is the wrong term. I'm not really going anywhere. Plenty of food here till the possums and deer run low. Water is my biggest issue. Too deep to drill affordably.

Here's the rig

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotion...ackage-od.html

And yes I do get it that even if you don't get shot in the vitals, that you're likely to die from just about any GS wound on the extremities without medical treatment and antibiotics. Just pondering is why I asked
At that price I would say buy it just as an insurance policy. Like insurance body armor doesn't cover everything that happens but it covers a lot that can happen. I would say buy it in a manner that folks don't know you have it because the law will come after it some day. What's legal today won't be under the commies. Cash is your friend or get a friend to buy it for you.

I am an old fart and the plates got too heavy so I sold them and kept the carrier.
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Old March 21, 2019, 13:36   #9
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Maybe bug out is the wrong term. I'm not really going anywhere. Plenty of food here till the possums and deer run low. Water is my biggest issue. Too deep to drill affordably.

Here's the rig

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotion...ackage-od.html

And yes I do get it that even if you don't get shot in the vitals, that you're likely to die from just about any GS wound on the extremities without medical treatment and antibiotics. Just pondering is why I asked
$300 sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Maybe this falls under the 'Better to have it and not need it than to need and not have' category.

Package includes:

(1) Testudo Gen 2 Plate Carrier
(2) AR500 Armorģ Level III 10" x 12" Curved Plates
(2) AR500 Armorģ Trauma Pads

Maybe I missed it but what's the weight of the full rig?
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Old March 21, 2019, 14:14   #10
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$300 sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Maybe this falls under the 'Better to have it and not need it than to need and not have' category.

Package includes:

(1) Testudo Gen 2 Plate Carrier
(2) AR500 Armorģ Level III 10" x 12" Curved Plates
(2) AR500 Armorģ Trauma Pads

Maybe I missed it but what's the weight of the full rig?
Plates are about 7.5 lbs each so probably looking at 18 lbs or so total with 2 plates.
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Old March 21, 2019, 14:36   #11
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Maybe bug out is the wrong term. I'm not really going anywhere. Plenty of food here till the possums and deer run low. Water is my biggest issue. Too deep to drill affordably.

Here's the rig

https://www.ar500armor.com/promotion...ackage-od.html

And yes I do get it that even if you don't get shot in the vitals, that you're likely to die from just about any GS wound on the extremities without medical treatment and antibiotics. Just pondering is why I asked
Not with me near by!

Of course, I'd make your scars large and ugly for all the past sins committed here on FF.
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Old March 21, 2019, 14:38   #12
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That's the new Mk3-4 model, I recognize the flash light and holder!
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Old March 21, 2019, 20:37   #13
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A tornado comes over my house,the kids get a K-pot on their noggin and wrapped up in a Kevlar vest.Then off into the basement. Anything that makes it harder for things to poke holes in your head or torso is alright by me. Eye protection,too. And something to filter your breathing air.
A hurricane is another good reason. If you are in an area where flooding might be a concern,carry or keep a floatation vest for everyone. Very serious concern here,on the Great Lakes. I personally,know of many people who might be alive today,had they wore a PFD. I keep one in my work van.
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Old March 22, 2019, 10:46   #14
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Package includes:

(1) Testudo Gen 2 Plate Carrier
(2) AR500 Armorģ Level III 10" x 12" Curved Plates
(2) AR500 Armorģ Trauma Pads

If I am reading their website correctly, Level III does not protect against your basic .223/5.56 round. Which seems kind of like a problem given how common those calibers are today?
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Old March 22, 2019, 11:10   #15
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If I am reading their website correctly, Level III does not protect against your basic .223/5.56 round. Which seems kind of like a problem given how common those calibers are today?
The level III+ plates are a $36 adder. But no Level III is not rated for the 855 penetrator round though I find it weird that it will handle 7.62x51 and not M193 from the testing.
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Old March 22, 2019, 13:07   #16
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At my age, in my current condition, I'd rather carry ammo and water. The whole time we were hunting "insurgents" in '79 none of us had any body armor. Shyte, we didn't even bother with steel pots either.
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Old March 22, 2019, 16:11   #17
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The level III+ plates are a $36 adder. But no Level III is not rated for the 855 penetrator round though I find it weird that it will handle 7.62x51 and not M193 from the testing.
Has to do with the speed of the projectile. The 5.56 is all moving faster than the 7.62 which allows it to penetrate the material.

Body armor is all part of the kit, can go with plates, without plates or no armor at all depending on needs. Good sticky in this section above covering different types available. I bought my first set from a police supply place on line that was closing out last year's carriers. I have picked up various trauma plates and accessories as deals have been found.

Also a lot of videos on youtube of home made resistant materials. Not sure some of these rate use on my body buy elsewhere maybe...
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Old March 22, 2019, 16:15   #18
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Body armor

https://www.jgsales.com/plate-carrie...-p-103132.html

Looks like pretty good price, comes with soft pistol panels, and pouches for rifle grade hard plates.
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Old March 22, 2019, 16:58   #19
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Has to do with the speed of the projectile. The 5.56 is all moving faster than the 7.62 which allows it to penetrate the material.

...
I understand. But I was always under the impression that the M193 wound was wicked because of the fragmentation when it hits the body. I can understand the 855 with the steel core, but scratch my head on just the standard 5.56. The 855 was developed because the 193 was not getting penetration was supposedly the justification as I understand it.

As far as the argument about not having armor, I can understand some of it. But maybe better to have it and not need it. A friend of mine preps certain ways and has been talking about it to me. He's got some armor and is trying to do it cheap. He was telling me about his stuff. I laughed and said "can we go shoot it...

...no I don't mean with you in it".
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Old March 22, 2019, 17:02   #20
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I understand. But I was always under the impression that the M193 wound was wicked because of the fragmentation when it hits the body. I can understand the 855 with the steel core, but scratch my head on just the standard 5.56. The 855 was developed because the 193 was not getting penetration was supposedly the justification as I understand it.

As far as the argument about not having armor, I can understand some of it. But maybe better to have it and not need it. A friend of mine preps certain ways and has been talking about it to me. He's got some armor and is trying to do it cheap. He was telling me about his stuff. I laughed and said "can we go shoot it...

...no I don't mean with you in it".
Hard to beat the effects of 55 grain FMJ 5.56 on soft targets, they are brutal, devastating, and cause one hell of a mess on soft tissue.

Trust me, our adversaries used them on our people, often.
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Old March 22, 2019, 17:11   #21
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Hard to beat the effects of 55 grain FMJ 5.56 on soft targets, they are brutal, devastating, and cause one hell of a mess on soft tissue.

Trust me, our adversaries used them on our people, often.
Was it fragged like the DOD papers I read about the testing? It was a very thorough report.

I'm interested more from the fact that I'm a shithouse engineer and wonder about how they are rating these things. I guess it's like anything else, always looking for a compromise between weight and functionality. If it frags on bone and soft tissue, I don't see how it goes through a piece of steel plate unless the fragments are getting through.
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Old March 22, 2019, 18:30   #22
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Was it fragged like the DOD papers I read about the testing? It was a very thorough report.

I'm interested more from the fact that I'm a shithouse engineer and wonder about how they are rating these things. I guess it's like anything else, always looking for a compromise between weight and functionality. If it frags on bone and soft tissue, I don't see how it goes through a piece of steel plate unless the fragments are getting through.
I never noted 55fmj ball ammo doing anything except spattering on plate armor I often found myself hiding behind.

Same for the standard ball AK rounds.

Couple/three sand bags seemed to stop everything as well.

When any bullet, such as the 5,56 fmj 55's hit flesh, if they contact bone, the bone becomes the projectile and if leg/arm hit, splatters out the backside leaving one huge ass wound.

Chest hits, I only dealt with the entry and any exit holes. A lot of people like to say the rounds did all kinds of magical stuff inside the body, like enter the navel and come out a shoulder, I never treated any like that.

My experience, a bullet strike pretty much continued on the same path as fired until it left the body, struck bone, or, just runs out of steam and stops.

People would often get hit while in weird positions, bent over, running, peaking up and looking around, and rounds can come in at any angle from any direction.

The ones I hated treating, were the ones that hit something solid/hard BEFORE going into flesh, them acted like a steel washer traveling at high speed, cutting through flesh like a knife and going in all directions.

For what its worth, ALL of my 5,56 is simple plain 55 grain fmj, loaded around 3100 fps.
Because it simply works on non armored plated flesh.
And I don't see a lot of armored up folks running around anywhere I plan to go that might ever need shooting.
If I ever did, I'd leave the AO as fast as my size 10's can travel.

Simple truths,,,,,,everyone ducks when shot at, armor plate is only 10/12 inches and that leaves a whole lot of other areas to hit, and shot placement, might be important on the range, not so much in gun battles.

Get your big toe shot off, ya out of the fight.
Round to your face, hand shot off, arm shattered, ass shot, ya pretty much out of the fight.
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Old March 22, 2019, 18:44   #23
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^^^yep but I thought if you're going to be found dead in ditch with a pile of brass, ya may need a little more to help make it worth the ditch you decide to die in and a little more hell for the tangos

My wife is a top of the line RN with a masters degree. She would be no help. But she says I do need to have my blood pressure looked at.
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Old March 22, 2019, 20:34   #24
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Why does everybody always assume they'll get struck,straight on,by bullets?
I would think you're just as likely to get zinged by a ricochet. Or hit by spall.
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Old March 22, 2019, 21:25   #25
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^^^yep but I thought if you're going to be found dead in ditch with a pile of brass, ya may need a little more to help make it worth the ditch you decide to die in and a little more hell for the tangos

My wife is a top of the line RN with a masters degree. She would be no help. But she says I do need to have my blood pressure looked at.
I got me my Fals if I need heavier, but if found in tha ditch one day, the pile of brass will be somewhat smaller than if caught with one of the AR's.

Nurses are great folks, but they ain't trained to be combat medics.

It takes a special kind of stupid to hump an aid bag.
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Old March 22, 2019, 21:28   #26
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Why does everybody always assume they'll get struck,straight on,by bullets?
I would think you're just as likely to get zinged by a ricochet. Or hit by spall.
Movies!

It just would not look right, if John Wayne ever got shot in his ass or G-D forbid his junk.

And YEP to the second point.
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Old March 22, 2019, 22:48   #27
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Movies!

It just would not look right, if John Wayne ever got shot in his ass or G-D forbid his junk.

And YEP to the second point.
Hey, Forrest took one in the ass, a bullet that is, he even showed the scar to L.B.J. !
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Old March 23, 2019, 02:22   #28
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Hey, Forrest took one in the ass, a bullet that is, he even showed the scar to L.B.J. !



Excepts to all rules.
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Old March 23, 2019, 11:08   #29
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Hey, Forrest took one in the ass, a bullet that is, he even showed the scar to L.B.J. !
Forrest G, of course...

I was never hit in the ass...

Forrest
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Old March 23, 2019, 17:51   #30
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Almost rather go without plates as to use steel. Spalling sucks and to stop it well can go ahead and buy real plates.





























I could go all day, have over 100 armor kits in-house now. Most of my plates are Level 3 stand alone Level 4 ICW soft armor. If can't stop a 30-06 can't stop average Bubba with his deer rifle.
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Old March 23, 2019, 18:23   #31
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A neat vest, load carrier, and decent pictures is a true sign of a very disturbed mind!
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Old March 23, 2019, 18:33   #32
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A neat vest, load carrier, and decent pictures is a true sign of a very disturbed mind!
Dunno. If Huey has it he stole it from a truckload sale I don't discount him. Maybe he can find me a deal.
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Old March 23, 2019, 18:33   #33
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M193 out of a 20 in barrel will punch neat holes in level III+ steel plates at 50 yards.... every time.
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Old March 23, 2019, 18:38   #34
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M193 out of a 20 in barrel will punch neat holes in level III+ steel plates at 50 yards.... every time.
Shit it may be worth $50 to buy a plate and use it for target practice to verify. They show that level 4 to resist AP. I'm the only one going to be using API
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Old March 23, 2019, 19:09   #35
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I bought a couple 5x? or 6x? AR500 side plates to test to see what gets through them. So far, a couple of good dents but I haven't tried 30.06 yet. It is supposed to go through it like a hot knife through nylon screen. I will try some steel core 5.56 in the near future.

I have a full set of AR500 with Kevlar spall guards and I just picked up some IIIa soft armor. I have soft trauma pads for backing either set. I'm in the "better to have and not need than need and not have" group.
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Old March 23, 2019, 21:20   #36
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Dunno. If Huey has it he stole it from a truckload sale I don't discount him. Maybe he can find me a deal.
We could always meet at his homestead and beg for entry when everything falls apart?????
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Old March 23, 2019, 21:27   #37
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We could always meet at his homestead and beg for entry when everything falls apart?????
Shit falls apart I ain't going that far north over in Georgia.
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Old March 24, 2019, 10:50   #38
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Shit it may be worth $50 to buy a plate and use it for target practice to verify. They show that level 4 to resist AP. I'm the only one going to be using API
I bought thirtysix of these side plates just for testing against different ammo, ICW soft armor, layered, etc. They are rated Level 3 stand alone and Level 4 ICW NIJ 3a soft armor. Gave me a benchmark using same plates across over a dozen common projectiles like M855, M855A1, M80 M80A1, 300 Win Mag, 30-06, 7.62◊39 steel core and some rounds 99.9% of people could never buy unless they really tried and we're willing to burn $50 to $100 per shot in fired round and wasted armor.





I consider NIJ 3/ICW 4 plates as my minimum. I will not use NIJ 3 that require soft armor to bring them to full threat rating anymore. Too many threats running around that will burn Level 3 including over half the rifles folks I know use for deer hunting.

Even I have enough M855A1 and M80A1 stockpiled that my poodle shooters and MBR's won't need a second round on target even if zombies are wearing a good kit.







Need all your accesories, notice upper left are panels that line armor straps to help protect shoulders from shots purposely pulled off center plate to areas that have no protectonic in most kits. Local cop went crazy and shot three others using his duty pistol through the shoulder straps of their armor where had no ballistic protection.



These are some high tech thus true high speed/low drag plates. They will stop M855A1, M80A1 and 30-06 black tip and weigh almost nothing. Not cheap, not easy to buy but odds are my backup kits have them. My primary kits are all beyond NIJ 4 and light enough to float in water.



Inquiring minds will even seek out DARPA and other dot gov development armor for the latest tricks.



Even the antenna(s) for the radio(s) on your kits should be best can find.



As well as the correct hearing devices for the situation.





Don't assume, test all styles and types of trauma panels for stopping ability and comfort.



Items like these behind your plates will make them 10x cooler and more comfortable.



I want my groin protected if just barracaided in the Ponderosa or walking the yard and not running around too much.



These are comfortable enough for daily wear and use every Sunday work church security to protect my femural artery.



Every cop has a Tasker on his belt and they cook right through soft armor unless you have covers or layers that protect from electronic discharge weapons.



Laundry day at the house. During summe put on a fresh vest every day so don't stink. Easier to have a week or more worth of good covert kits so don't wear out your kits using and washing. Have ten kits will rotate this summer so don't have to do laundry or wear any out from overuse.



Very thin NIJ 3a Dyneema plate that when tested ICW NIJ3A soft armor have found it will stop some, not all, of the super bargain Chinese lead core 7.62◊39 from 25 yards. This is some of the more anemic which seems to be what see most because it's the cheapest. Good old fashioned 7.62◊39 corrosive steel core will cook through the panel, soft armor with the penetrator coming out the rear panel leaving a mess of bimetal/steel jacket shreds and debris spread between. Amazing how poorly some of the cheap rifle ammo performs these days. My 160 grain cast low recoil cast 7.62◊39 will punch it at 25 yards.



If see me in this kit will also be wearing my MICH helmet with the new add on she'll sections that give head true NIJ 3+ protection, a NIJ 3a face shield on helmet, along with NIJ 3a chaps and the groin armor. Will move like a turtle but will also be behind a barricade most likely twisting a bolt action in 338 Lapua Mag with a few MBRs and stack of beta mags in case the turn bolt doesn't hold folks far enough from the Ponderosa.



Have shot more armor than most will own. Have two URL's and considering if posting all the data have gathered is a win or loss for the good guys. Would hate for someone to pull up the list of my entry kit, max their credit card then walk in a school or church. When cops AR 15's just knock dust off their kit and they keep fighting might end up with armor banned for private citizens. Trump has supported that idea when broached as many of the police lobby groups really want armor banned for us civilians. A "no knock" at my home would suck and why have this next to each exterior door.





My emergency truck kit. Wear soft armor whenever leave house but if SHTF can grab rifle from lock behind seat, drop on set of Level 4 plates (11"◊14" front, 10.5"◊12.5" rear) plus helmet and if out gunned and out armored won't make it home.

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Old March 24, 2019, 10:55   #39
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We could always meet at his homestead and beg for entry when everything falls apart?????
Remember your big foam hand with finger pointing. If see will ask before shoot. In order to survive my plan requires at least six to nine people to show up and I need to be able to arm, armor, feed and provide medical care for them all.
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Old March 24, 2019, 11:35   #40
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Remember your big foam hand with finger pointing. If see will ask before shoot. In order to survive my plan requires at least six to nine people to show up and I need to be able to arm, armor, feed and provide medical care for them all.
Based on the area you live (and I don't know exactly where and no I'm not asking either, I respect your privacy), if the world goes sideways I doubt most people could get very far into that neck of the woods from the urban areas.

The farthest I've been up that way was to RBGC FAL match, it's all little two-lane windy roads and hills, lots of woods, and I have to imagine good old boys would start setting up road blocks at key points and nobody from outside is even getting near deep into that part of Georgia.

Be told politely to turn back to whence they came and if not there are at least a couple snipers drawing a bead on ya right now so have a nice day and turn around.

It's the urban areas that are going to eat themselves alive then try to go after the soft suburban types. I suspect the main threats would be .223/.556 or 7.26x39 , shotguns, and lots of handguns. Unless you're going to cover every contingency like Mr. Huey (and most of us really can't), I think protecting against that level is a good start. Just my humble opinion.

Your preps are just mind-blowing to me, have you considered writing a book on all this?
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Old March 24, 2019, 11:45   #41
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I have some steel rifle plates in a Condor Defender carrier. I'm very dissapointed in the weight,bulk, difficulty in donning and general uselessness. For a tornado I'd wear it but not for bugging anywhere.
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Old March 24, 2019, 13:49   #42
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I have some steel rifle plates in a Condor Defender carrier. I'm very dissapointed in the weight,bulk, difficulty in donning and general uselessness. For a tornado I'd wear it but not for bugging anywhere.


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Old March 24, 2019, 13:59   #43
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Remember your big foam hand with finger pointing. If see will ask before shoot. In order to survive my plan requires at least six to nine people to show up and I need to be able to arm, armor, feed and provide medical care for them all.
That's been a while, but damn, am happy, ya going ask, is that you YH, BEFORE shooting me!

Being polite is always a good thang!
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Old March 24, 2019, 14:01   #44
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So how do those plates stand up to 7mm magnums or 338 win mags?
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Old March 25, 2019, 00:24   #45
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So how do those plates stand up to 7mm magnums or 338 win mags?
Unless DARPA is feeding you their latest kits for the Space Force, maybe slow down poorly designed 7mm mag bullets? Thing is all the windows in my house are NIJ 3a minimum second floor and NIJ 3 on ground floors and brick exterior and the shooting hides are all armored to beyond 338 Lapua Mag. Straight body armor and 338 Lapua Mag and larger your toast but working on it. Issue is they upgrade armor, someone upgrades projectiles, then upgrade projectiles end up ca using upgraded armor. It's a visicious cycle that results in someone owning a hundred kits or more.
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Old March 25, 2019, 01:28   #46
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Based on the area you live (and I don't know exactly where and no I'm not asking either, I respect your privacy), if the world goes sideways I doubt most people could get very far into that neck of the woods from the urban areas.

The farthest I've been up that way was to RBGC FAL match, it's all little two-lane windy roads and hills, lots of woods, and I have to imagine good old boys would start setting up road blocks at key points and nobody from outside is even getting near deep into that part of Georgia. Be told politely to turn back to whence they came and if not there are at least a couple snipers drawing a bead on ya right now so have a nice day and turn around.

It's the urban areas that are going to eat themselves alive then try to go after the soft suburban types. I suspect the main threats would be .223/.556 or 7.26x39 , shotguns, and lots of handguns. Unless you're going to cover every contingency like Mr. Huey (and most of us really can't), I think protecting against that level is a good start. Just my humble opinion. Your preps are just mind-blowing to me, have you considered writing a book on all this?
Have already decided which trees are going to fall across road and where vehicles will be disbled to stop vehicular traffic. Have at least three neighbors either side of me that will be watching and potentially violent before threats get to the Ponderosa. String extends two miles north and we are surrounded three side by big water of 55,000 acre lake.

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I have some steel rifle plates in a Condor Defender carrier. I'm very dissapointed in the weight,bulk, difficulty in donning and general uselessness. For a tornado I'd wear it but not for bugging anywhere.
I get lots of steel plates (give $20 trade in credit on good plates) and use for targets/testing. If shoot someone three times in chest wearing steel the spall with have shreaded most of their face and groin.



Here were some mock ups before my tailor sewed them up. Nested a 5"◊8" NIJ 3a trauma pad inside of knee pad then added a pair of groin protectors with velcro to attach to belt and an elastic strap to go around back of leg snugging the groin protector for use as a thigh protector. Facing forward and become handgun hurt from back face signature instead of bullet through thigh or knee from handgun. A lot of this is just spall protection for when working behind armored hides that stop up to threats like 50 BMG Raufoss.

Recently picked up a new line of window tint can add to storm windows, standard 1/4" shatterproof glass of any type or even automobile windows that stops 9mm handgun projectiles. Imagine a NIJ 2 storm window over another NIJ 2 dual pane glass window with NIJ 3a polycarbonate liner inside on almost every window or higher. Whenever my acrylic vendor gets a damaged or cut sheet drop I get it for cost. Add in scraps from work and over 30 years all of our high threat windows facing the street are NIJ 3+ to stop M80 Ball minimum.

Added shutters just a week ago that have been sitting waiting for install to a window with layer of 3/8" AR 500 steel with 3/4" redwood covering the steel and hidden port can open to fire through. Wife wanted the hard mount polycarbonate layer gone so able to open for fresh air on occasion. The storm window and main window are both still NIJ 2 and closed most times but if need flip shutter closed and 3/8" of AR 500 steel will stop a lot of bullet. I just worried about Light Fighting Rifles and Medium Battle Rifles to new neighbor a couple years ago decided to use a Remington 742 in 30-06 for home defense, snakes, ground hogs, anything. Realizing had a trigger happy neighbor whose main defensive firearm would punch all my NIJ 3 as 3+ armor found lots of lightweight NIJ 4 plates for our primary kits.

We have one room upstairs that has ballistic fiberglass instead of drywall and a bigger room in basement with concrete walls plus ballistic fiberglass for spall protection. Doors are all NIJ 4 rated with 20 minute forced entry rating under ballistic/hurricane rated storm doors. Have portable barricades that sit in closets on wheels can roll to different locations in house where may be needed. 30 years of screwing any scrap of ballistic material I scavenge somewhere has become an obsession. Bought two sets of the big bank branch drive through windows over winter and trying to decide where they will land. I want bug in to be like sitting in a bank vault.

I love to build something can't shoot through, come up with ammo that will defeat it and then a better barrier that defeats new projectile. M80A1 projectiles in 300 Win Mag are nasty vermin. Remember the first few series of Barnes copper solids the BATFE banned? I have many hundreds of them because of their penetration capabilities in magnum rifles. All we have to do is identify threats before they get close enough to over run or burn us out, choose proper hide and snipe them before they are in range to return fire. Sitting at table with 338 Lapua Mag on a Lead Sled behind a 50 BMG rated barrier will create a line of bodies 500 yards from house few will want to wade through is my plan. Remember you UHF, VHF and HF National Calling Frequencies. Call out in radio range and we may clear you a lane to the front door.
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Old April 01, 2019, 18:56   #47
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While we are discussing bug out armor, what is the plan for many like me whose primary plan is to bug in. I have bug out locations as close as eight miles which is my business. Concrete building with flat roof originally and had a truss metal roof built on top as got tired of fighting leaks of a flat asphalt roof that had been retrofitted with rubber membrane. Means in the new attic space have a few thousand square feet of room to create sleeping areas, watch positions and more. Property has six foot fence with screen to obscure view inside and barbed wire along top.

Have tools, ham radio shack, all windows armored, exterior/interior camera system, ground radar and seismic sensors, etc. It's basically outfitted like house but due to location have minimum stand off distance for threats and large numbers of minorities who tend to stay in or near their declared territory. Luckily have a "deal" worked with local Hispanics around the facility. Has food storage, firearms storage, ammo storage, reloading and a closet of inflatable matresses, pillows, blankets, sleeping bags, clothing along with tons of bosy armor plus tons of steel plate, aluminum sheet, polycarbonate and more. Have two trusted families that if we don't use it they will and protect it as long as possible along with giving us situational reports from town.

Have a good bug out position about four miles north, opposite of work have a decent place with eight acres owned by former Marine Force Recon member with oversize house plus shops behind and in front of house where he does custom steel, aluminum, fiberglass, carbon fiber and more. Eight miles north have a better bug out location where owner has forty acres with machine shop and hundreds of firearms plus an endless supply of food/water. Then have the family farm which is 160 acres surrounded three sides by 3,000 acres of Wildlife Management acres plus shops, homes and family.

Have a lot that is in middle of nowhere that getting a camper to will be hard but it will work. Has good water and food would not be an issue till game was thinned. All that said have other bug out options but we are 90% likely to bug in. Over the past 28 years have hardened my house slowly and improved every weak area including protecting main floor from overhead fire coming down from the air up to 30 caliber belt fed machine gun and basement is much higher threat with walls and ceiling of panic room protected to 338 Lapua Mag AP all sides and ceiling.

Our plan revolves around a small group of friends showing to aid and support defending the Ponderosa. Plan is a minimum of six and maximum of twelve based on what my psychiatrist and psychologist both say is maximum can put in house for extended time as all will need space to reduce "cabin fever" causing interpersonal relationship issues. We have four married couples and four single men. The married couples all shoot recreationally and have skills like both doctors, doctor/engineer, nurse/EMT, etc. The four single men are all ex military with combat experience. Area surrounding house now has cameras, seismic sensors, radar, LIDAR, motion sensors and more.

Have added highly reinforced shooting positions over the years where a person can set up a shooting table with rest or even a Lead Sled. Each position has at least 120į field of view with overlapping fields of fire. If it's just wife and I defending the house will be tough against a group unless have all man traps and home brew defensive systems operational. Have four shooting positions that are armored to 338 Lapua AP or higher along with four more to 30-06 AP or higher. All windows are NIJ 3a rated minimum and most will stop the cheap Wolf type 7.62◊39 ammo.

We have portable barriers can roll around house that are 1/4"◊40"◊60" AR 450 steel on rolling dollies which normally sit in back of closets. Have been able to scrounge up enough drops from my steel suppliers have four of these rolling barriers ready to deploy where needed. Have windows where two feet to either side and below has enough steel between studs buried in the walls that in conjunction with armored windows plus ability to roll one of the many dollies in front of said window increasing it's functionality of it as a shooting position. Having eight prebuilt ready to place shooters "hides" on three levels of the home give us good coverage if able to put people in each slot.

Add in rifle rated body armor and current milspec helmets to protect from spall we should be able to pour fire on intruders while their return fire will mostly be wasted rounds. We have all sorts of materials in sheds can use to increase threat ratings if looks of home become unimportant. Have shutters on some windows that have AR steel in them that when closed make those windows easily NIJ 4 level protection. One of the last hurricanes helped we got some sand bags that were easy to fill, not overly large/heavy once filled and stack easily without being unstable. Ordered several hundred and had a ton of sand in a transport bag delivered to back yard. If the chosen have to congregate when deemed safe we can take turns filling bags and stack them against interior walls to increase threat rating. The bags give eight inches of sand, are somewhat self healing if punctured.

We could even sandbag the front, side and rear porches for an extra layer outside and to extend fighting positions beyond the walls of the home. A ton of sand bagged and tarped and pile of small bags did not cost much and bothers nothing. All exterior and some interior doors are ballistic and forced entry rated. I don't believe if SHTF we are getting a months warning nor will wandering with a backpack and what your able to carry will last long if move near urban areas. Once it starts, what you have in hand is likely all you will have. After six months of time believe small areas will stabilize and people will start going out foraging and trading. Armoring your structure is likely more important if not as important as individual body armor. If do a single project at a time over a couple decades will have a house with lots of safe areas to fight from protected positions.
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Old April 01, 2019, 19:32   #48
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Unless DARPA is feeding you their latest kits for the Space Force, maybe slow down poorly designed 7mm mag bullets? Thing is all the windows in my house are NIJ 3a minimum second floor and NIJ 3 on ground floors and brick exterior and the shooting hides are all armored to beyond 338 Lapua Mag. Straight body armor and 338 Lapua Mag and larger your toast but working on it. Issue is they upgrade armor, someone upgrades projectiles, then upgrade projectiles end up ca using upgraded armor. It's a visicious cycle that results in someone owning a hundred kits or more.
Thanks huey, I can always depend on your good straight answer. Your knowledge far surpasses the rest of the folks here and I appreciate you share it.

Jim

Edited to add, your last post asking what is the plan is not possible for me to answer. I don't have a plan but I rely on flexibility by studying potential scenarios.

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Old April 02, 2019, 07:51   #49
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Nobama left so much top line U.S. issue body armor in Iraq that ISIS fighters are using U.S. armor kits almost as often as U.S. soldiers. Why we had to rush M855A1 and M80A1 ammo to the field to punch our own armor the ISIS/Al Quida fighters were wearing. My guess is ISIS fighters now have a premium on acquiring M855A1 and M80A1 which will force an upgrade in our kits. It's a crazy cycle but dates back before the Roman Empire of making armor to stop a threat then weapon to defeat new armor.
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Old April 15, 2019, 18:52   #50
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Few questions Hueyville,

1) Does your Osprey mk4 vest have soft panel inserts? If so where did you get it? Seen them for sale several places but never have seen any that included the kevlar panels.

2) You talk about light weight panels that float, are those made out of that milk jug material that delaminates over time? They're the only ones I know of that float. I wouldn't trust my life with that stuff.

3) Why wouldn't you use angel wings/ deltoid protectors instead of groin protectors for your thigh protection project? They have a larger surface area and already have velcro attached to them so you wouldn't have to worry about sewing them.

Alexander the Great and company used to make armor out of linen material that they glued together. Now we use that same material to make fancy clothes.
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