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Old January 07, 2019, 12:23   #1
TNAndy
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Powder scales?

I don't expect to reload much or very often since the only .308 Win rifles I currently have are FALs. On the other hand, I've got a few thousand bullets that went through one fire or the other and I'm told I have to break them down. Everybody says something bad likely happened to the powder and possibly the primers. Most are either PPU or ZQI brand bullets.

MidwayUSA has a National Metallic Electronic Powder Scale on sale today only for $29.99 plus $7.69 shipping:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/69...grain-capacity

I know that not all scales are created equal and that I definitely want a tare weight function. The Midway scale on sale has this function.

SniperCountry.com recommends four scales. One is in a price range I'd consider, $31.60 and free shipping:
The Frankford Arsenal DS-750 Digital Reloading Scale

If you have a powder scale you swear by, what brand and model is it?

By the way, I'm having to replace all my reloading equipment because everything went up in the house fire. I couldn't even recognize my RCBS Rock Chucker in the rubble!
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Old January 07, 2019, 19:27   #2
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Very sorry to hear about the fire, TNAndy. Gattlinburg?

Regardless, I had a plain Jane RCBS beam scale that worked perfectly and was much cheaper than many digitals. My buddy had a Dillon digital that was so overly sensitive you could hold your hand an inch over the calibrated scale and change the reading.
I threw charges with a Redding BR30 and confirmed them with the beam scale and a trickler. Only loaded .308 and .223 this way, worked fine for years.
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Old January 07, 2019, 20:10   #3
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Actually, Gatlinburg was our second fire.

Our house burned in February 2016. Then we moved to my Mom's condo in G'burg and subsequently got burned out again. 2016 was a rough patch.

Fortunately, we were insured. Better yet, the guns somehow survived both fires. And the new house is quite an improvement over the old one. Now we're replacing stuff that needs replacing.

The down side is after two claims the insurance companies won't touch us with a low-yield nuke.
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Old January 07, 2019, 20:17   #4
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There is a difference between a scale and a balance.

There are electronic balances. Scales use springs or load cells.

Try to find a decent electronic balance that people don't want anymore. We used to throw instruments away by the dumpster full

My little RCBS balance still shows 4 US quarters weighing an ounce on calibration
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Old January 07, 2019, 20:18   #5
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Let's say you have 5000 spoiled cartridges, and you want to pull the bullets.

We will assume you are doing it on a collet puller mounted in a conventional press.

How many can you pull in a minute?
I'll go crazy and say you can pull four per minute. I think that is a high estimate for factory-crimped .308 ammo, but we'll use that number anyway.

5000/4 = 1250 minutes.

1250/60 minutes = twenty hours slaving at that collet-puller to pull those bullets.

Each pulled bullet is worth what?.... maybe 5 cents?

So, $0.05 x 5000 = $250 worth of bullets.

$250/20 hours = $12.50/hr.

$12.50/hr. may not sound so bad until you realize you also have to calculate your cost of rebuilding those bullets into loaded rounds.

We could keep going with this and come up with some more numbers. You see where its going.

I get it that the value of money varies quite a bit based on opportunity, circumstance, and geography. So, I apologize if I'm sounding over-priveleged by what I'm about to say.

That said, you couldn't pay me $12/hr (or for that matter, quite a bit more) to stand at a press and pull bullets for 20 hours. Especially if the payoff isn't really cash, but is just a bunch of salvaged, been-in-a-fire milsurp-grade bullets. No way.

Please accept my sympathies for your loss.

Please also accept my suggestion that you scrap the been-in-a-fire ammo, and think about something else to do with those 20 hours, and the 20 more hours you will spend rebuilding those old, possibly-damaged, bullets into ammo.

$232 buys 1500 NEW bullets that you can turn into new, not-very-accurate ammo.
https://www.surplusammo.com/products...-shipping.html

How much 147-grain .30 caliber are you really shooting? 1500 new bullets would last me a really long time. Especially since those bullets are never very accurate. You can spend the 20 hours at the range instead of slaving in the basement.

Maybe you can sell that spoiled ammo AS-IS to somebody who wouldn't feel like their life was swirling meaninglessly down the drain as they worked into the second dozen hours at that collet-puller.
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Old January 07, 2019, 20:47   #6
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I'll say two more things, and then I'll butt-out.

Don't get too wound-up over the accuracy of powder scales. The precision of powder-weight required for handloading ammo that is really accurate is so small as to be nearly insignificant. A good powder measure is way more important than knowing the actual, precise weight of the powder charge. Even the cheapest powder scale will get you close enough. Then you set your high-quality volumetric powder measure to a nominal setting and lock it down. A high-quality powder measure will throw rifle charges consistently to within 0.2 grains. That is plenty consistent to stay in the X-ring all day, at any distance, provided that your hold is X-ring quality.

The reason why I was so long-winded about the DON'T DO IT admonition is because I had to (OK.... "chose to") break down a full can of 5.56 ammo that I had ignorantly built with STANDARD small rifle primers (CCI 400). Well, that ammo pierced primers badly because of the thin primers, and damaged a bunch of bolts, and a bunch of firing pins, before I finally accepted the fact that I'd screwed the pooch on my selection of primer. Maybe I spent all that time at the bullet-puller as a sort of self-imposed penance for my fugk-up. I not only spent all that time pulling those bullets, but I also reloaded that brass with 2.0 grains less powder, and managed to not have more pierced primers. But, I still had to shoot-up all that ammo. A bunch of ammo that was not running at the same speed as my match ammo, and in-reality was mostly useless to me. So I also wasted all that range time (self-imposed penance) shooting ammo that I didn't want to shoot. So, in that sense, I've been in your shoes. In retrospect, it would have been a better choice for me for that ammo to have ended up at the bottom of a lake instead of flogging myself over it for all those hours and hours.

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Old January 07, 2019, 22:50   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Let's say you have 5000 spoiled cartridges, and you want to pull the bullets.

We will assume you are doing it on a collet puller mounted in a conventional press.

How many can you pull in a minute?
I'll go crazy and say you can pull four per minute. I think that is a high estimate for factory-crimped .308 ammo, but we'll use that number anyway.

5000/4 = 1250 minutes.

1250/60 minutes = twenty hours slaving at that collet-puller to pull those bullets.

Each pulled bullet is worth what?.... maybe 5 cents?

So, $0.05 x 5000 = $250 worth of bullets.

$250/20 hours = $12.50/hr.

$12.50/hr. may not sound so bad until you realize you also have to calculate your cost of rebuilding those bullets into loaded rounds.

We could keep going with this and come up with some more numbers. You see where its going.

I get it that the value of money varies quite a bit based on opportunity, circumstance, and geography. So, I apologize if I'm sounding over-priveleged by what I'm about to say.

That said, you couldn't pay me $12/hr (or for that matter, quite a bit more) to stand at a press and pull bullets for 20 hours. Especially if the payoff isn't really cash, but is just a bunch of salvaged, been-in-a-fire milsurp-grade bullets. No way.

Please accept my sympathies for your loss.

Please also accept my suggestion that you scrap the been-in-a-fire ammo, and think about something else to do with those 20 hours, and the 20 more hours you will spend rebuilding those old, possibly-damaged, bullets into ammo.

$232 buys 1500 NEW bullets that you can turn into new, not-very-accurate ammo.
https://www.surplusammo.com/products...-shipping.html

How much 147-grain .30 caliber are you really shooting? 1500 new bullets would last me a really long time. Especially since those bullets are never very accurate. You can spend the 20 hours at the range instead of slaving in the basement.

Maybe you can sell that spoiled ammo AS-IS to somebody who wouldn't feel like their life was swirling meaninglessly down the drain as they worked into the second dozen hours at that collet-puller.


Dude, you just suck all the fun out of life......


YMMV
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Old January 07, 2019, 22:56   #8
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Old January 08, 2019, 20:01   #9
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Let's say you have 5000 spoiled cartridges, and you want to pull the bullets....

Please accept my sympathies for your loss.

Please also accept my suggestion that you scrap the been-in-a-fire ammo....

How much 147-grain .30 caliber are you really shooting? ....
I appreciate your sympathy. As the fire gets smaller in the rear view mirror, the more I've come to appreciate what we now have. Here's a brand new house that we designed with low-maintenance in mind. (We're not getting any younger....) We added our own money to what the insurance company paid on the furniture and got a really nice upgrade. The house is wired to accept a generator for emergencies and there's a new generator parked in the garage. My new sunroom is larger so I can fit more tropical plants than I could in the old house.

So, here's my thinking on the toasty ammo. First, you're absolutely right, I have no real desire to spend hours and days pulling and reloading that ammo. But if the SHTF, I suspect my priorities, spare time, and the value of that ammo could change significantly. (Maybe I should say WHEN the SHTF as the national debt soars ever higher.) Assuming someday the TV and internet no longer work, I might as well spend my time pulling and reloading, right? It costs me nothing to hang onto the toasty ammo. The insurance company already reimbursed me for it, so I've got nothing in it.

On the other hand, I could die before the interwebs conk out. So, why not buy all the tools and the components to reload that ammo now while they are cheap and available, then I'll salt the lot away--tools, powder, toasty ammo--in a cool, dry spot. As is.

I'll rethink the reloading thing again when I buy a bolt rifle. Precision matters more in a .308 bolt gun than a 7.62 battle rifle.

Actually, these days I tend to shoot the plastic training ammo. It goes bang. It punches a nice clean hole in paper from 50 feet away. It costs the same per round as 9mm. The bullets run out of gas and fall harmlessly to the ground within 300 yards or so. The accuracy is shitty, and I gotta load it one round at a time, but did I mention it goes bang?



It sure would be cool to carve a bolt and bolt carrier out of aluminum. I'd need to replace the springs with lighter ones. Then monkey with the extractor so the plastic rounds would cycle, but I digress....
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Old January 08, 2019, 20:12   #10
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There is a difference between a scale and a balance.

There are electronic balances. Scales use springs or load cells.

Try to find a decent electronic balance that people don't want anymore. We used to throw instruments away by the dumpster full

My little RCBS balance still shows 4 US quarters weighing an ounce on calibration
Do you have a specific recommendation as to brand and model? eBay and I are pretty good friends.

Yeah.... I'm trying to quit dumpster diving. We scrounged far too much junk out of the old house that turned out to be less than worthless. Now I need to make a special trip to the dumpster just to get rid of it.
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Old January 08, 2019, 20:14   #11
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A DPMS .308 AR-type rifle with free-floated barrel is definitely accurate enough to show the difference between milsurp ammo, and ammo built around a quality bullet.

You can probably see the difference between good bullets and bulk-bullets too in most rack-grade rifles. Only thing is, the group size of most rack-grade rifles is usually so large, even with good bullets, that any shooter who has become accustomed to accuracy will loose interest in shooting the rack-grade rifle quickly, even if that rifle is producing groups that are slightly less crappy than usual.
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Old January 08, 2019, 20:21   #12
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As for powder scales, the only scale I've ever used - since 1984 - is this cheap Lyman. https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Powder-...202/1001667339

What you really want is a HIGH-QUALITY powder measure. I've been using one of these for rifle ammo since the early 90's. https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/4518
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Old January 08, 2019, 22:33   #13
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Old January 10, 2019, 10:16   #14
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The Lee powder measure will do everything as well, or even better, than powder measures costing a lot more.

I'm on my 2nd cheap scale, first one burned out after 15 years of service. Paid $50 for the first one, and $35 for a better one recently. I always check them with a known weight.

Second tumbler as well, burned it out, Lyman I believe.
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Old January 16, 2019, 10:57   #15
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As for powder scales, the only scale I've ever used - since 1984 - is this cheap Lyman. https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Powder-...202/1001667339

What you really want is a HIGH-QUALITY powder measure. I've been using one of these for rifle ammo since the early 90's. https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/4518
$210 for a powder measure--ouch! If I were going to shoot competitively, I'm sure that would be the way to go. The cheap Lyman is much closer to my price range.

What is the base of your Lyman scale made of?
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Old January 16, 2019, 14:38   #16
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Before buying anything to replace what was flamed, check with the manufacturer to see if they have a warranty that will cover rehab, refurb, or upgrade. RCBS used to be that way so you might only have to pay for shipping to the company for them to fix.

Any scale will do for blasting ammo, whether it be a $10 or $100 one. They should all be calibrated with a check weight each time you use it.

As W.E.G. stated, the measure is the most important thing you will buy for reloading. That said, I have found that most name brand measures will throw consistent charges inside of 0.1-0.2 grains. This is good enough for blasting and hunting ammo. For my precision loads, I weigh out each charge using my powder measure then move to a trickler to finish out. I just recently converted to the Hornady Auto-Charge scale and measure to increase my productivity a little.

Check out your local gun sops and see if they have any used equipment for sale. Also keep an eye out in Craig's list, estate auctions, and your local flea markets. I picked up an Dillon 650 fully loaded with case feeder and 5 sets of rifle and pistol dies for $300.
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Old January 16, 2019, 19:56   #17
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What is the base of your Lyman scale made of?
Connecticoid Americanisium.
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Old January 22, 2019, 16:30   #18
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Before buying anything to replace what was flamed, check with the manufacturer to see if they have a warranty that will cover rehab, refurb, or upgrade. RCBS used to be that way so you might only have to pay for shipping to the company for them to fix.

Any scale will do for blasting ammo, whether it be a $10 or $100 one. They should all be calibrated with a check weight each time you use it.

As W.E.G. stated, the measure is the most important thing you will buy for reloading. That said, I have found that most name brand measures will throw consistent charges inside of 0.1-0.2 grains. This is good enough for blasting and hunting ammo. For my precision loads, I weigh out each charge using my powder measure then move to a trickler to finish out. I just recently converted to the Hornady Auto-Charge scale and measure to increase my productivity a little.

Check out your local gun sops and see if they have any used equipment for sale. Also keep an eye out in Craig's list, estate auctions, and your local flea markets. I picked up an Dillon 650 fully loaded with case feeder and 5 sets of rifle and pistol dies for $300.
Alas, there's nothing to send back. I couldn't even recognize the RCBS press in the rubble and I kicked things around quite a bit. I might as well have been walking on the moon--that's exactly what it looked like upstairs. While we and the contractor were hashing out floor plans, I was here for a couple of hours several days a week scratching around for items worth recovering. (I could only stand the stench for that long before getting a headache.) Frankly, there's still a pile of junk in my shed I should have ditched while we had a dumpster in the driveway. Anyway, immediately after the contract was signed, we had the entire old house crunched up and hauled away, including the kitchen sink and the foundation. If it didn't get moved to the shed, it's looooong gone.

Our homeowner's insurance covered the press and I've already bought a new Rock Chucker.

Chasing down some used equipment sounds like a fantastic idea. That's one hell of a deal you got on the Dillon.
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Old January 22, 2019, 16:34   #19
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Connecticoid Americanisium.
I was kinda hoping for either "metal" or "plastic" as an answer....

I talk some 'Merican and some heavily tarnished Mexican, but I don't speak-a that language.
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Old January 23, 2019, 10:37   #20
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Turned up some nice scales on ebarf under "OHAUS". They made most of the reloading and other small scales for Lyman, RCBS and themselves for many years, still do.

I have a Ohaus/Lyman M5 which later became an RCBS 1010, either is recommended. It is a fancy version of the 505 that doesn't have the dampened balance beam.

Another Ohaus scale that is my favorite is the big 1110 Dial a Grain shown half way down the page and being sold for parts only. Not sure how much fun it will be to replace the "agate" bearing, so not recommended.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...cales&_sacat=0
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Old January 23, 2019, 11:58   #21
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Some sorta metal.

Made in Connecticut
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Old January 23, 2019, 14:06   #22
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Connecticoid Americanisium.
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Some sorta metal.

Made in Connecticut
If it's metal, sort of heavy, and a magnet won't stick to it, it's likely some type of Zamak. Or, possibly aluminum.


As for powder scales? I've used a little of everything. Dad and I started with a manual scale and manual trickler - like Gary's recommendation. We added a Lee dipper set to speed things up. Then Dad bought a RCBS powder measure (Gary's other suggestion). When he decided the powder measure didn't like to drop accurate charges of long grain stick powder, Dad bought a Lyman digital powder scale/dispenser.

What we discovered out of all this is that the precision of your charge weight is relative to how fast you want to load ammo. If you're happy just being in the ball park, the Lee dipper set is the quickest. The digital powder trickler was a helluva lot slower than we thought it would be, but we can weight out charges to .1 grain - as long as we aren't in a hurry. The powder measure is good for volume work, with the exception that it doesn't necessarily like long grain powder. However, if you're loading with W748 or other ball powder, it feeds well and gets you pretty close as Gary mentions.

Depending on your budget, you can load lot of ammo with a manual scale, manual trickler, and the right sized dipper. If you want to load up a bunch of ammo for semi-auto rifles, I'd find a ball powder they like and use the powder measure to volumetrically measure the charge, lock the settings down, and be done with it.
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Old January 28, 2019, 22:02   #23
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I use a GemPro 250 for precision reloads and an RCBS Range Master 750 for the standard stuff.
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