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Old November 20, 2018, 17:39   #1
GodEmperorTrump
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Threading inch barrel for sound suppressor?

I have an inch pattern ban-era century sporter that had the threads cut off upon import. I have gotten the barrel re-threaded to the correct 9/16x24RH thread and a proper woodruff key notched under the barrel to retain a factory 5 prong flash hider.

I also have a SilencerCo Omega that I would like to use on this rifle. I’ve got ASR muzzle brake model number AC1276 which is also threaded 9/16x24RH.

I am seeking the wisdom of the FALFiles because you guys are super autistic nerd level dedicated to these guns.

I called SilencerCo weeks ago before getting the barrel work done by the gunsmith. I explained to one of their technicians what I was trying to accomplish. The guy I talked to on the phone correctly identified that I needed the right hand thread device for an inch pattern rifle. He also told me that the muzzle brake will index off the end of the muzzle, not off of a shoulder. OK great, I ordered the part and sent the gun off to a gunsmith where the barrel was removed and turned on a lathe and then reinstalled and test fired. The factory flash hider fits perfectly.

So I get my SilencerCo device in and start threading it on and the brake stops where the slight shoulder is at the end of the threads, not off the muzzle. There is a length of thread inside the brake that isn’t making contact with the muzzle face so I get worried.

I called SilencerCo back and explained what was happening and the first person I spoke with didn’t know inch pattern guns existed and insisted that the gunsmith must have turned it left hand and that haha its all your fault. She escalated the call to someone who actually knew what they were talking about and he said that the first guy I talked to weeks ago correctly knew I needed right hand threads but was in error about the brake indexing off the muzzle. He said the right hand threaded brake indexes off of a shoulder.

Ok so here we are.... I’ve got a thin profile L1A1 battle with not much of a shoulder to begin with. Can I reliably and safely time this brake?

The barrel thread work was done by a 07FFL that is behind one of the largest gun YouTube channels and was recommended by another member here that I know personally.

Apologies for typos as I’m posting from mobile. I will upload photos later this evening.

Photos: https://imgur.com/a/kZ7JfkP

https://imgur.com/a/cQ4SO9R

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Old November 20, 2018, 18:32   #2
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That thread looks like it was done with a die not a lathe.

post a picture of the inside of your flashhider/adaper
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Old November 20, 2018, 20:08   #3
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Originally Posted by GodEmperorTrump View Post
you guys are super autistic nerd level dedicated to these guns.
Well there is a NEW description for the falfiles.

Not necessarily wrong or negative, but NEW
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Old November 20, 2018, 20:26   #4
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Re: threaded with a die and not a lathe

The smith in question stated explicitly to me that he would be threading this barrel on a lathe.

If that was not done we are going to have a major problem.

I will not name them until and unless the problem doesn't get rectified.
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Old November 20, 2018, 20:35   #5
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I looked at my ASR FH on a metric barrel. It seats on the muzzle. Barrel profile normal FAL that accepts the combo device. You may be missing the relief cuts behind the threads on the barrel. There is an undercut
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Old November 20, 2018, 22:20   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionYobbo View Post
That thread looks like it was done with a die not a lathe.

post a picture of the inside of your flashhider/adaper
Based on the final thread being non-tapered? It appears to be lathe-cut to me. If done by hand, he must have had a die that is tapered on one side and not the other. I've done some pretty impressive shit by hand when I did not have a lathe, but the images you show are really good. Normally a hand-thread will not have such a clean recess at base and the final thread will be larger than the one before (tapered die).

L1A1 times off face which is why one cannot calculate timing washer without a gauge.

L1A1 also has a step from 15.5 (Aussie) or less (UK), to 15mm at shoulder.

The length of the thread looks correct, but may not correspond with your muzzle device.

But w/o the timing washer, it might clock on shoulder. See third image.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428499
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Old November 20, 2018, 22:52   #7
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Based on the final thread being non-tapered? It appears to be lathe-cut to me. If done by hand, he must have had a die that is tapered on one side and not the other. I've done some pretty impressive shit by hand when I did not have a lathe,
I based my ussumption on the galing where the shoulder should be clean at the end of the thread.
The only other way I know of to get the galling at the end of the thread is to use the lathe with out power as in spin the lathe by hand while it cuts the tread and then power reverse back to the start point

And a tip for cutting with a die. start with the large taper forward and when you get as far as it can cut take the die off and turn it around and clean up the final cut with the flat side of the die. when you do this be sure to clean up the galling at the end of the tread.
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Old November 21, 2018, 06:51   #8
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If you need a shoulder on an L1 barrel you can use a jam-nut, same as I did on my M1A for the OSS suppressor device. Got the one pictured from Rousch Sports for $15. Same 9/16-24RH threads, just have to thread for an additional 5/32" worth of length, to account for the full thread length of the jam-nut. PM if you'd like more info...

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Old November 21, 2018, 09:00   #9
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Originally Posted by ActionYobbo View Post
I based my ussumption on the galing where the shoulder should be clean at the end of the thread.
The only other way I know of to get the galling at the end of the thread is to use the lathe with out power as in spin the lathe by hand while it cuts the tread and then power reverse back to the start point
I'm not seeing what you are referring to. Threads look clean, well formed, and I can forgive the 60 degree shoulder since it's not used anyway (I still like to come to come back after threading and make that 90 degrees). I deal with galling all the time (yugo AKs!) and am not seeing it.

Quote:
And a tip for cutting with a die. start with the large taper forward and when you get as far as it can cut take the die off and turn it around and clean up the final cut with the flat side of the die. when you do this be sure to clean up the galling at the end of the tread.
For those now uncommon dies that aren't tapered both sides.
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Old November 21, 2018, 10:38   #10
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Why not send the adapter with the barrel to the shop that threaded it and ask them to make it work.
If a standard flash hider fits then the shop did the job they were asked to do. Will a standard flash hider fit?
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Old November 21, 2018, 11:14   #11
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Will a standard flash hider fit?
Based on his photograph of a standard flash hider installed, I'd say yes.

Quote:
Thems be beginers words.
First step for cutting a thead on a lathe is to cut the shoulder and releif.
Here is a good book to help you to become better
I cut the relief last, since my half nut ends up at the depth of the relief and the degree of relief varies on whether I'm following FN long, FN combo, or L1A1 specs.

I have a number of manuals I consult in developing my skills. One is "Machine Shop Practice" Vol 1 & 2 by Moltrecht. The other is what I consider a classic - "How to Run a Lathe" by South Bend Lathe Works, 1942 edition. It makes far more sense to me to cut the relief after the threads, but you can do it however you want. Not sure why you'd consider that a "beginner" thing.

edit - Oh, I see you deleted your comment - why is that?
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Old November 21, 2018, 11:41   #12
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After looking at the pics, I'm scratching my head as to why they did this. My ASR is a FH not a brake. But the OD of the barrel does not create interference with the device. I would take it off, but it's got rocksett on it and don't want to deal with it.

You could probably machine the initial .25" of the device to a larger ID to create a relief cut that would clear the barrel. Your barrel threads are .60 in length and the length of the device threads are around .80. YMMV
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Old November 21, 2018, 12:09   #13
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edit - Oh, I see you deleted your comment - why is that?

Because Iím in a crappy iPhone I canít edit what I was trying to say And what I was saying doesnít help the OP in anyway
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Old November 21, 2018, 12:40   #14
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Oh, I thought you'd realized it was without merit.
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Old November 21, 2018, 20:52   #15
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Oh, I thought you'd realized it was without merit.
not at all.

The way I was taught to cut a thread is to cut the shoulder to set the length. Cut the relief to the minor depth and a minimum of 1/2 the width of the thread cutting tool. Turn the area to be threaded to the major diameter. Then cut the thread in several passes etc.
The purpose of the relief cut is so the tool has a free area to stop in when the half nut is disengaged. With out the relief cut the tool is alwas cutting and as the thread gets deeper the amount of metal the tool has to remove at the end of the thread increases to the point that the tool can break off. With out the relief cut the tool will still end up cutting a relief cut progressivly (if it dont break) as each cutting pass is stoped by disengaging the half nut leaving the tool stationary against the spinning job.

So I see the OP has some new pictures up that show the thread better. I retract me earlier statments of this not being done on a lathe. I can now see that the galling is just chopped threads where the tool was making its own relief cut
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Old November 21, 2018, 23:02   #16
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not at all.

The way I was taught to cut a thread is to cut the shoulder to set the length. Cut the relief to the minor depth and a minimum of 1/2 the width of the thread cutting tool. Turn the area to be threaded to the major diameter. Then cut the thread in several passes etc.
The purpose of the relief cut is so the tool has a free area to stop in when the half nut is disengaged. With out the relief cut the tool is alwas cutting and as the thread gets deeper the amount of metal the tool has to remove at the end of the thread increases to the point that the tool can break off. With out the relief cut the tool will still end up cutting a relief cut progressivly (if it dont break) as each cutting pass is stoped by disengaging the half nut leaving the tool stationary against the spinning job.

So I see the OP has some new pictures up that show the thread better. I retract me earlier statments of this not being done on a lathe. I can now see that the galling is just chopped threads where the tool was making its own relief cut
First - I am a gunsmith who learned some machining. I am not a machinist who learned some gunsmithing. So I am totally open to education. I do not pretend to be a machinist. However I also know that much of what passes for "machinist" knowledge is because "that's how I was taught." The fact that it was with different machines and different materials and irrelevant to what we're doing today doesn't seem to affect the dogma.

When I was a kid, my mom, would cut the ends of the roast off before placing it in the pan, with the ends tucked on the sides. I asked why? Mom said, "that's how my mom did it". I asked grandma. She said the same - "That's how my mom did it". I asked my great Grandmother - "honey child, the roast was too big for the pan".

So I am not being a contrarian just because three Gin and Tonics say I must be. But what you say makes no sense at all.

First, "galling" is a function of metal displacement not of cutting - typically from two like metals under extreme pressure. The only way a cutting tool, in my opinion, will do so, is if it is loaded up with material (particularly common on aluminum w/o a sulfurized cutting fluid). Or on stainless where both pieces of stainless are too similar. I ran into this when I bought out a 1911 company "Accumatch" and their SGW frames and slides would be slick as shit as I lapped them into place, and suddenly bind like they were glued together. Or Yugo AK barrel journals and trunions. The metal displaces under hydraulic pressure like it was clay. Hate Yugo AK metallurgy.

So while not a machinist, in the last couple years I've machine threaded over a thousand FAL and L1A1 barrels. In the decades prior to that, when I was still too afraid of single-point threading, I threaded thousands of barrels by turning the OD on the lathe, and then using a die on the lathe, then cutting the reliefs.

So now I turn the OD and for right hand threads, set by zero on the cross-feed and compound, and come in with the compound one increment (perhaps .010"). Engage half nut and disengage at shoulder. Repeat, increasing depth until desired depth is reached, then one or two more passes until the cutting tool passes without cutting. I'm still not confident with internal threading, so please take my challenging your assertions in the "show me why" perspective in which I intend it.

There is no crashing into the shoulder because I disengage at the shoulder. Since it's stil spinning with disengagement, the area right before the shoulder becomes a groove, not a thread. On the final pass, I am at the minor diameter of the thread, so I leave the compound rest at it's depth, and cut the rear relief, although this leaves me an angled shoulder. Then I pull the cross-feed out, go to the lead, and bring it back to zero, which matches the minor diameter, and cut the front relief. If I'm afraid of crashing the shoulder, I slow the RPMs down.

Then, if the thread bears on the shoulder, I can switch cutters and make a squared shoulder. If it bears on the muzzle, I still might because I think it looks neater.

Why you think that I'm going to break a tool doing this, escapes me. Why I need to cut the relief first, instead of last, does as well. Not saying it's wrong to, but I'm not interested in breaking tooling, but after a thousand barrels, I haven't yet - so I fail to see how this sequence is somehow inferior.
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Old November 22, 2018, 11:41   #17
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Very interesting as I'm tackling the same problem. I've got a like-new Brit kit that I'm considering building into a rifle that will shoot suppressed 100% of the time. There's a lot to consider. My perspective comes as the only non-machinist in a family of machinists who own several companies, dozens of machine tools, and, collectively, possess hundreds of years of experience and multiple degrees in related fields:

Don't worry about

1. Your thread length is slightly too long compared to the original. The original flash hider will cover this as will the suppressor's muzzle device.

2. The threading itself. Looks well done, but its quality isn't the most relevant part of this problem. News flash: the internet is once again wrong about guns. Everybody thinks it's the muzzle threads on M14s, G3s, FALs, and even AKs that create the risk of baffle strikes. It's the surface the flash hider/brake/adapter/suppressor itself indexes against that's usually the problem (unless the threads were cut retardedly out of concentric).

Consider

1. Is the muzzle flat? My father and I put my L1A1 barrel between centers and measured the muzzle's runout with a test indicator to determine if it needed corrective action. The British guy that made this barrel left 0.001" of runout, which is acceptable. Additionally, the increase/decrease in runout was gradual enough to indicate a decent surface, not a burr or bump. This matters because...

2. You've only got room for about 0.004" of runout or other error on the muzzle face before you're in baffle strike land. Your Silencerco Omega is about 10" long and has an exit aperture of 0.405" while the 7.62x51mm bore diameter is 0.308", leaving us 0.0485" of radial space to play with. Over 10", a misalignment from 0.004" of runout translates to roughly 0.040", which would look almost like touching when inspecting with a suppressor alignment rod.

3. As Mark's other thread points out, without a timing bushing, even the factory flash hider touches the super thin shoulder cut on the L1A1 barrel. It can't index against that, the face is the only option.

4. Your suppressor's muzzle device has way more thread depth than it needs in this application. They all will.

5. Make/have made a timing bushing for your new muzzle device. Unless you wanna make a jam nut instead.

6. Tolerance stacking. Your suppressor will attach to a brake/hider/mount which could attach to a thread adapter (in my case not yours) which attaches to the barrel (via threads that may or may not be concentric) but aligns off the custom bushing/jam nut which itself indexes off the muzzle which may or may not be perpendicular to the bore. Again, that muzzle face needs to be damn good.

Also consider

1. Using a low-backpressure suppressor instead of a baffle suppressor. Can the FAL handle the increased backpressure without a modified gas system? Ask Mark.

2. Can do vs. should do. With the access I have, I could easily build then align and suppress the Brit kit with my OSS can, but I'm still debating whether or not I even should. Is all this F'ing around worth your time and money? The inspection work I've already done sure as hell wasn't worth my father's time or even my drive time. This has to be a labor of love or you're better off slinging lead down range out of your SCAR or AR or whatever.
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Old November 23, 2018, 22:22   #18
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Novice lathe operator here.

A nice old lathe running with a slow back gear might be a lot easier to time the half nut disengagement.

My lathe is a modern Chinese lathe and the slowest mine runs is 70 rpm nominal.

Another option some machinist take is to run the tool upside down behind the part and cut away from the head stock so no risk of mistiming. I have not run a thread that way. I did manage to cut an expander for my rcbs .38-55 cowboy die with a left hand thread by forgetting to change my direction lever back. I figured that one out on the cleanup pass.
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Old December 03, 2018, 22:40   #19
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If it was threaded to the original setup...


why not a thread adopter..


I got mines from Mark McWillis... https://trosusa.com/

it was from the inch thread to the 5/8.
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Old December 04, 2018, 00:42   #20
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Well, I am a lathe operator schooled by the US Navy. That said, what I found while doing research before purchasing my first suppressor was the the standard threads were not standard when it came to the different makes of suppressors. Sure the major and minor diameters along with the pitch were standard, the length of cut along the bore axis varies with the muzzle device/adapter for the suppressor to be used. For muzzle devices/adapters that face off the muzzle, the length of cut is usually shorter than those that face off the barrel shoulder. From your description, you have a device that faces off the muzzle, requiring the length of cut to be longer.

Here is the download from Silencerco with their rifle barrel muzzle thread specs. Measure yours and see if it measures to spec.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/com.silence...read_specs.PDF

Edited to add:

The Omega owners manual states that shims must be used when installing the ASR muzzle device to insure proper alignment. To me this sounds like the device should index on the shoulder and not the muzzle.

Step 1: Remove your existing muzzle device using a 3/4” open end wrench. Remove the crush washer from barrel threads.
Step 2: Install the muzzle brake (1C) by threading it onto the barrel (2C.) Use the provided shim kit to ensure proper muzzle brake alignment. Tighten onto barrel using a 3/4” open end wrench. Use of Rocksett™ or Loctite Red 271 is recommended to secure the muzzle brake.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/com.silence...ega-Manual.pdf
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Old December 10, 2018, 11:07   #21
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Thanks for all the replies you guys. I spoke to the gunsmith and Iím going to take in the gun to get him to put a suppressor alignment rod on to prove thereís no danger to the can. Heís insistent that the threads were cut on a lathe and that they are perfectly concentric with the bore. His suggested solution to mounting the suppressor is to snug down the brake with plenty of rocksett.

Apparently the L1A1 barrel is thinner than the .600Ē minimum as indicated in the SilencerCo thread drawings for 9/16x24RH which is why he wasnít able to cut a square shoulder and runout. His concern was that a sufficient force against the end of the muzzle could snap the threaded portion off.
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Old December 10, 2018, 11:23   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chief View Post
If you need a shoulder on an L1 barrel you can use a jam-nut, same as I did on my M1A for the OSS suppressor device. Got the one pictured from Rousch Sports for $15. Same 9/16-24RH threads, just have to thread for an additional 5/32" worth of length, to account for the full thread length of the jam-nut. PM if you'd like more info...


Thatís an interesting idea. Would you mind elaborating in this thread for information purposes for anyone else in the future that has this problem?
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Old December 10, 2018, 11:39   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionYobbo View Post
Why not send the adapter with the barrel to the shop that threaded it and ask them to make it work.
If a standard flash hider fits then the shop did the job they were asked to do. Will a standard flash hider fit?
I did send the SilencerCo device to the shop with the barrel. It turns out that there was a 5/8x24 muzzle brake inside the box labeled for a 9/16x24RH brake. The vendor I bought it from had the right box but it looks like SilencerCo or someone else made a mistake in packaging it. The vendor took the return and made it right and sent the correct one.
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Old December 13, 2018, 10:16   #24
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Thatís an interesting idea. Would you mind elaborating in this thread for information purposes for anyone else in the future that has this problem?
Happily so. Member 'Parga' right here on the Files did the work on the muzzle. This barrel is a Krieger stainless heavy M1A, and that nice dark finish is over a nitride treatment, which I sent to Wolfe Firearms (via member 'Ironworker' here) and they sent for the salt bath.

The threaded portion of the jam nut is approx 5/32" deep, so had the muzzle threads cut that much further in to allow for max thread engagement in the muzzle device. The photo in my previous post was a mock-up, pre-nitride/finish, hence the color difference. Still all the same components. The advantage of the jam nut is it prevents the muzzle device from 'pulling' on against the shoulder which, if has any inconsistency, could pull unevenly. The jam nut spreads the torque force over (5) thread lengths, rather than against the barrel shoulder, as well as providing a larger shoulder surface.

While this may not apply as much to L1A1 (or FAL) barrels, the concept is a sound one and can be considered for most any application. I personally would not alter an original length barrel, but there are CAI-neutered barrel somewhat in abundance (I have two, up for grabs, if anyone is interested) and are prime candidates for this application. Best of luck to all, and do be aware of the increase back-pressure 'traditional' suppressors cause. The FAL/SLR gas system does require some tweaking, unless running a flow-thru can like OSS, YMMV.









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Old January 09, 2019, 16:35   #25
GodEmperorTrump
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Update: I threaded my ASR device onto the muzzle threads and affixed the suppressor to it. I loaded a round of factory loaded ammunition and pulled the trigger. Ping. The round hit the steel plate and my suppressor was still attached. No baffle strike. Everything went great for another 100 rounds.

Now that Iím happy with the work and know it was done right, let me recommend Ray Vaughn of Moss Pawn and Gun in Forest Park, GA. He was patient and friendly but also knowledgeable. He is the master gunsmith behind the FFL07 toys on the IV8888 YouTube channel.
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Old January 10, 2019, 09:21   #26
01BIRDDOG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chief View Post
Happily so. Member 'Parga' right here on the Files did the work on the muzzle. This barrel is a Krieger stainless heavy M1A, and that nice dark finish is over a nitride treatment, which I sent to Wolfe Firearms (via member 'Ironworker' here) and they sent for the salt bath.

The threaded portion of the jam nut is approx 5/32" deep, so had the muzzle threads cut that much further in to allow for max thread engagement in the muzzle device. The photo in my previous post was a mock-up, pre-nitride/finish, hence the color difference. Still all the same components. The advantage of the jam nut is it prevents the muzzle device from 'pulling' on against the shoulder which, if has any inconsistency, could pull unevenly. The jam nut spreads the torque force over (5) thread lengths, rather than against the barrel shoulder, as well as providing a larger shoulder surface.

While this may not apply as much to L1A1 (or FAL) barrels, the concept is a sound one and can be considered for most any application. I personally would not alter an original length barrel, but there are CAI-neutered barrel somewhat in abundance (I have two, up for grabs, if anyone is interested) and are prime candidates for this application. Best of luck to all, and do be aware of the increase back-pressure 'traditional' suppressors cause. The FAL/SLR gas system does require some tweaking, unless running a flow-thru can like OSS, YMMV.











I actually made a nut very much like this for my SCAR which as you know does not have a very large shoulder. Many,many rounds later with suppressor all is still good.
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Old January 13, 2019, 19:22   #27
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I would cut a threaded spacer on the lathe to take up the space.
The threads are .205 deeper on the brake for the can than the muzzle threads.

Or you could chuck up the can brake in the lathe and remove .206 of the beginning threads so the can break times off the muzzle.

Or you could machine an adapter.
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