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Old October 28, 2018, 13:10   #1
hueyville
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M855A1 and M80A1

While have more of each than I deserve have been looking for M855A1 pulls to load in 22 Nosler with no luck. Was buying pulls in 250 to 1,000 count lots fairly regularly for a couple years but all can find past six months are $3 each and can buy M855A1 loaded ammo for $3 per round on Gunchoker and pull it myself though might be counterproductive. If anyone sees pulls pop up at American Reloading or elsewhere for $1 or less sing out please. Think was paying 50 cents by the thousand before.

Did notice that M80A1 is bringing over $10 per round and as much as have given away five to twenty rounds at a time could have sold and purchased a nice rifle but good will is priceless. Reached out to my M80A1 connection and discovered unless another government contract comes up requiring a fair amount of testing will not be bringing anymore in. Sure would like another 500 rounds. Anyone seen any?
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Old October 30, 2018, 05:49   #2
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Thanks for that American reloading hat tip Huey, that helps me. Forgive me but I must admit I had to look up what M80A1 was.....wish I could help.
Funny that with prices down I can't take advantage, other stuff getting in the way but will make small purchases here and there as I can. The way things are I'm using existing stocks or casting.
Good luck.
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Old October 30, 2018, 12:15   #3
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Wow, .20 cents per for pulled .30 147's at AR.

Pretty sure new Hornady 150's are only .15 cents per.
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Old October 31, 2018, 22:44   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider View Post
Wow, .20 cents per for pulled .30 147's at AR.

Pretty sure new Hornady 150's are only .15 cents per.
Have found if patient, wait for sales and buy in bulk can usually buy a better quality factory new bullet for civilian needs than pulls but occasionally luck out and find an odd lot of specialty projectiles for pennies. Was a pull down company that got a huge amount of XM68GD white box 6.8 ammo they pulled and since it was first they had and so similar to 5.56 as was made for M4's they priced the primed cases and 90 grain Gold Dot pulls for same price they priced their 5.56 M193 pulls. I purchased 2,500 cases and 5,000 projectiles that when arrived turned around and purchased another 10,000 cases and 15,000 pulls which was all they had in their largest bulk packages.

Next lot they received had discovered what others sold 6.8 Gold Dot pulls for when got them (initially when USSOCOM accepted 6.8 into their SOPMOD every armchair warrior had to have one or three and 6.8 took off like a rocket) in and price almost doubled over first lot and word was out they had them so sold out fast even at higher price. When American Reloading first got M855A1 pulls could buy 1,000 or 2,000, wait a couple weeks to replenish consumables fund and buy some more. Now when they get them if don't sell out before a person even notices they have them, only order will get is what you buy in first 24 to 48 hours inventory is posted.

There are literally a dozen vendors selling the M855A1 pulls for $3 each but can buy M855A1 loaded ammo for same price. Only M80A1 have found is $530 for $50 rounds. Have a few 100 round boxes that keep staring at me am tempted to list for $995 each and hope that as the Uncle Sugar supply chain fills availability will go up and price will drop. Picking up a couple or three grand would not hurt my feelings and would leave me with enough for a minor emergency and testing purposes. At $3 per round don't see the risk in selling my real deal M855A1 inventory. Have a large number of M855A1 pulls plus a fair amount of the St Marks cannister powder used to load them so can take any once fired Lake City and replicate it if we're bringing say $5 per round or more.

A couple years ago bought some pulls from a seller who didn't know what he had and recognized them as M995 at a super cheap price but he only had 500 and not seen any more other than in photos. At one time had a large military ammo "collection" which stored and inventoried as "collectables" rather than ammo then got nervous about some of it and sold all the super exotic 338 and 50 caliber along with two types of 30 caliber to another collector as was unsure how BATFE might rule on it if showed up at the front door wanting to do an inspection. Think all but one type would have been o.k. but just felt it did not give enough advantage to outweigh potential charges. Seems like for people who buy large numbers of NFA items, build military clone rifles in bulk if don't outright buy originals if available to civilians would be able to file a Form similar to that of destructive devices for military ammo collections.

Have found a lot of vendors that pull combloc 7.62 projectiles then load in NATO cases and do proper paint and markings to clone specialty ammo that performs much less than buyer expected if not careful. Have several thousand combloc blue tip incendiary AP pulls purchased at fair price and can find them fairly regularly. If I could find about 500 M80A1 pulls at fair price would load them to milspec and sell my genuine M80A1 while bringing over $10 but hate to sell it and not ever find more.
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Old November 01, 2018, 17:30   #5
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post
Have several thousand combloc blue tip incendiary AP pulls purchased at fair price and can find them fairly regularly.
What ComBlock nation had a ctg with a blue tip AP/incendiary bullet?
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Old November 06, 2018, 11:27   #6
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What ComBlock nation had a ctg with a blue tip AP/incendiary bullet?
Same place he gets his "Raufous"
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Old November 09, 2018, 19:06   #7
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At this point own no Raufous as too iffy on legality as it can be purchased from two vendors use that specialize in "collectible military ammunition". Buyuy most of my pulls out of Moldova from a vendor that sells everything from U.S. Issue body armor abandoned in Iraq during the rush to get the troops home, British surplus armor they can't sell to civilians in most Western European countries, L1a1 magazines still in original boxes and cosmoline wrapped paper, pulled projectiles of all types, European police equipment and more. These folks occasionally have interesting items if check back regularly. Some of it is cheaply made recreations that do not perform to milspec standards so have to know what your looking at before order.

http://www.garysguns.com/exotic.htm

http://www.polygunbag.com/bullets.html

http://www.emacstacticalshop.com/exo...ty-ammunition/

Same vendor as above but direct to their FN 7.62x51 AP

http://www.emacstacticalshop.com/rar...-ap-black-tip/

https://www.freedommunitions.com/amm...le/50-bmg.html

https://www.xproducts.com/product/50...nition-50-bmg/

These are a few links just to get folks thinking. Good stuff comes up on Gunbroker fairly regular but goes for top dollar. Other discussion groups have people that sell pulls and brass and once get to know them will often discover they also have items can't list without ads being pulled by moderators. For many years I collected rare military ammo intensely but sold out 80% of my inventory to a local collector as decided a lot of it was not worth hiring lawyers and facing juries to convince its a harmless hobby and had no idea some of it might have been restricted as purchased at gun shows and online. If can't find anything saying a particular flavor is illegal to own then might keep some around. Some will find is illegal to sell or buy but not possess. In those cases if can convince the jury was a gift or otherwise acquired without violation of buying/selling laws then take your chances where willing.

I err on safe side but what's odd is one of the hardest items for me to keep in stock is the Short Stop training tracers with 600 yard maximum range before air brakes stop it's progress and Short Stop plastic training ammo which both are U.S. military approved for firing over troops in live fire training drills and use for marksmanship training on ranges without a lot of room for bullets to be traveling distance standard milspec ammo does. The 600 yard Short Stop ball actually groups about 2 to 2.5 MOA at 100 yards and if use heavy cardboard backers it really takes the actual range down to about 300 meters.

Got a text early this week asking if I knew an easy way to delink 7.62x51 belted ammo like this without creasing or denting cases and straining thumbs. After a little questioning learned my friend scored a five gallon bucket with tails of belts each with 30 to 60 rounds and didn't want to work through all way he was doing. Offered to delink them for him and our deal is I get to keep 1 out of ten M80A1 and 2 out of ten tracers for the effort. Asked if there was a chance of getting more and said guy he purchased from comes up with a five gallon bucket of belt tails of M855A1 and M80A1 about once a month and has had trouble selling it due to links and tracer. Buddy said paying a buck a round but guess he is padding the number a bit so he can make a few dollars whenever flips a bucket know that he knows I want all he gets. He says about one bucket of 5.56 and one of 7.62 will cover his needs and will hook me up with the rest if I want it so told him to pour it on as I sop it up like gravy with a cathead biscuit.



Quote:
Notes on 5.56 AP ammo: The US does make black tipped armor piercing ammo in 5.56 which is designated M995, The bullet features a an outer copper jacket, an outer lead core, and a tungsten dart.

M995 ammunition was never sold as surplus. The few confirmed legitimate rounds that are out there on the commercial market were likely brought back from the middle east or taken from ammo dumps here in the US. Legitimate M995 rounds sell for between $25 - $75 each on the collector market.

Much of the 22 caliber black tipped ammo on the market is either green tipped ammo painted black (scam), or it uses bullets pulled from 5.7x28mm AP rounds (SS190) when that ammo was banned in the US. SS190 rounds weigh 30 grains and have are aluminum cored bullets with a steel penetrator tip. While they shoot fine in a 5.7x28, the velocities reached shooting it in a 5.56 usually result in the bullet tearing itself apart.

Notes on 7.62x51 Armor Piercing Ammo 7.62x51 AP ammo had two distinct production runs. The first run, starting during the Vietnam war through the early 1990s used the M61 AP bullet. US made 7.62x51 Ap ammo was never sold as surplus on the open market.

However, an unknown quantity was imported from Israel. Factory ammo will have a FN or IMI headstamp. The M61 projectile is easily identified by having a second cannalure visible.

Modern 7.62x51 ammo designated M993 has no visible cannelure and a tungsten core. M993 ammo has never been sold as surplus. The few confirmed legitimate rounds on the collectors market bring in close to $100 each.

Most of the 7.62x51 AP that is out there for sale is reloaded ammunition using pulled 30-06 AP bullets. There is nothing wrong with it, and it shoots just fine.

30-06 AP is still very common and available. Millions of rounds were made annually up through the late 1950s. If you look around, it is available as loaded ammunition for about $1.00/round. Pulled bullets go between $0.50 - $1.25 each depending on supply. Some of the very last runs of 30-06 AP used the M61 AP bullet made for the 7.62x51.

Notes on Incendiary Ammo The last small caliber (< .50) incendiary ammunition was reportedly made during the Korean war. 5.56 and 7.62 Incendiary ammo available on commercial market today is reloaded ammo using new manufactured bullets.

Armor Piercing Incendiary ammo was made for the 30-06 until the mid 1950s. It is identifiable as having a weight between 155 and 160 grains, it is magnetic, and has a silver tip.

Any 7.62x51 Armor Piercing Incendiary ammo should be presumed to be remanufactured using 30-06 API bullets.

US Small Arms Ammunition .50 or smaller

5.56 x 45
Black tip - Armor Piercing: LC or WCC headstamp. M995: Solid tungsten core. Non-magnetic. Never sold as surplus.
Green Tip - Light Armor Piercing: - Commercially available, magnetic at tip.
Steel Tip - Light Armor Piercing (Enhanced) Bigger penetrator than green tipped. Exposed steel tip.
Red Tip - Tracer: 55 grain, lights in the barrel. Military used until supply exhausted. Commercially available.
Orange tip - Tracer: 62 grain. This is Green tip with a tracer. Commercially available
Violet Tip - Tracer: (IR Visible) 62 grain with a dim tracer that shows up with night vision equipment without over-saturation. Never sold as surplus.
White Tip - Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP): Never sold as surplus. Limited military use.

7.62 x 51
Black Tip - Armor piercing: Factory Mfg 7.62x51 (M61) AP bullet will weigh 151 grains and have two knurled cannilures on the bullet. One for 7.62x51, the other for 30-06.
Black Tip - Armor Piercing: LC or WCC headstamp, M993 No visible cannelure, non-magnetic Never sold as surplus.
Orange Tip - Tracer: 152 grain, bottom of the bullet is cupped with a copper cover.
Brown Tip - Overhead Tracer (T raining) Never sold as surplus. Used during infantry t raining for overhead fire.. Very short range with short duration tracer.
Purple Tip - Tracer (IR Visible) 152 grain with a dim tracer that shows up with night vision equipment without over-saturation. Never sold as surplus
Green Tip with white ring - Frangible ball: Bullet breaks up on impact with hard object, leaving visible mark. T raining Use only, some commercial availability
White Tip - Riot control: Mention this because I have seen it at gun shows and online. It was made by IMI for use in Israel, but some of it was imported to the US. Each projectile contains a small amount of tear gas. An interesting curiosity for the ammo collector, but tactically it was next to useless.

30-06 (7.62 x 63)
Black Tip - Armor piercing: Will have a single wide cannelure visible. Black tar sealant around case mouth. Magnetic throughout body. 163 grain weight.
Silver Tip - Armor piercing/ Incendiary: No cannelure, weight approximately 155 - 160 grains. Steel penetrator in mid body, lead bullet base.
Red Tip over Silver Ring - Armor piercing/incendiary/tracer - Very rare on commercial market
Red Tip - Tracer: WWII surplus. Lights at firing.
Orange Tip - Tracer: Later variant of tracer. Same bullet as used on 7.62 x 51.
Blue Tip - Incendiary: 130 grain, no cannelure visible. Light or Dark Blue tip.
Green Tip with White Ring - Frangible ball: Same as 7.62x51

30 carbine WWII
Red Tip - Tracer: Still available as surplus.
Yellow Tip - Observation (T raining) - Limited production and thus rare. Essentially a extended duration incendiary used for t raining/spotting.
Yellow Tip over Red Ring - Observation/tracer (T raining): Same as above, but with a tracer.

50 Caliber - Not observed, but included for reference.
Black Tip - Armor piercing
Silver Tip - Armor piercing/ incendiary
Red Tip over Silver Ring - Armor piercing/incendiary/tracer
Green Tip - Long Range Sniper
Red Tip - Tracer
Orange Tip - Tracer
Blue Tip - Incendiary
Red Tip over Yellow Ring - Raufoss Spotter Round
Green Tip over Grey Ring - High explosive/ armor piercing/ incendiary/ tracer
Yellow Tip over Grey Ring - High explosive/ armor piercing/ incendiary
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Old November 11, 2018, 08:48   #8
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Couple of years ago got raked over the coals here for mentioning shooting some Short Stop Tracer near vertical over my house. At one time had a huge pile of short stop from a gun show purchase but since have not found anymore. Stuff is great if want to test a 7.62x51 battle rifle at work or home. rather than destroying my bullet traps or risk a ricochet off my dirt berm just past fence line just run some Short Stop. A cardboard box (don't do this with tracer unless want to be putting out a fire filled with newspaper stops them indoors at work as they tend to bounce out of the bullet trap on occasion and at fifty feet they sting on their way back.

After the big brouhaha last time I mentioned these took a couple of magazines to the family farm (160 acres), set up a test rig shooting two mags near vertical and was able to recover over 50% of the plastic remains in a fifty yard radius about 100 yards from point they were fired. Remember the ball has same range of rim fire so be careful if use it but the tracer is fully burnt out at 100 meters and entire projectile have to work if want it to go the 600 max yards rated. If fire true horizontal it hits the dirt before the 300 yard line. Have some of the brown tip overhead training tracer also approved for use over heads of live troops in training exercises and would never do the same with them. Have fired the brown tips and were still zipping farther than wanted before running off on erratic paths.

The "air brake" design of the Short Stop make the ball and tracer very predictable and manufacture claims are spot on. Have tried buying direct with no luck and resellers have found thus far want an LEO letter as only sell any product to law enforcement and military. This is not a military/LEO only regulated product just having trouble finding a vendor who sells to private citizens or even small corporations as I obtain some ammunition. would really like some of the 5.56 Short Stop in both ball and tracer. Being able to test fire upper repairs and builds in shop soon as done would be nice.





Not trying to restart any debates over use of specialty training ammo but if anyone trips across any of this in the wild or for sale would like a heads up as being able to safely shoot a full size rifle on a limited range area is very advantageous at times. As far as I know with M855A1 and M80A1 the rules say the military cannot sell as surplus but not read anything saying it is illegal to own if find. Especially considering can buy the pulled projectiles, cases and powder they were loaded with from several sources and reassemble.

I believe unless its super high tech. Uncle Sugar wants to sell off when time to rotate stock in most profitable way possible. Paying to have it destroyed costs way more than selling to companies they know will sell off the individual components to get the most out of it even if people are reassembling it at home. If pulls from Europe are coming though customs with no issue as well as online regularly as long as do not buy "assembled" specifically banned ammunition there are not going to be any issues till there is a specific law written. That said I did do a lot of research and got rid of a large portion of military ammo had in my collection at one point. Now majority starts as pulled projectiles dissected to ensure real deal not faked (how got all of my M955 inventory) and assemble in appropriate case with closest powder can find that duplicates milspec performance.

Edit:
Was surfing around looking at trending ammunition and current contracts to actually find copies of purchase orders for the XM1158 ADVAP 7.62 and soon to come 5.56 rounds which are already slated to replace 5.56 M995 and 7.62 M993 armor piercing ammo. These new rounds are similar to M855A1 and M80A1 in appearance but have armor piercing capabilities that exceed the M993/M955 family and supposidly once defeat armor or if make hits on tissue perform as well as the M855A1/M80A1 rounds. Uncle Sugar is paying up $13 per round for first year shipment of XM1158 ADVAP but it's said that it is mainly because of development and equipment costs and should see a 50% reduction in cost per round next year which is still seven bucks per round with eventual cost supposed to level off around $2.90 per round.

Since all is being packaged in belted links for the M240 those are going to be some expensive ammo dumps when belts of $13 per round start running downrange. What I am wondering is a whole bunch of M993 and M995 going to be surplussed and sold as pull downs to make room for the XM1158 ADVAP in warehouses. In the past this seems to be the Army way. With 1.6+ million rounds of 7.62 ordered just for 2019 and supposidly the 2020 order is going to be double as price reduces there is a good chance if they don't pass the M993/M995 off to other NATO countries we could see a fair number of pulls on civilian market. I wold rather have us patriotic reloaders reassembling the stuff than give it to the Iraq or Afgan Armies where half or more will get diverted to ISIS hands. Did find a source in the diggging with some Nammo 5.56 incindiary AP available which should be coming this direction as company selling said only the 7.6251 was military/LEO restricted and checkout went through cleanly on remaining inventory.
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Last edited by hueyville; November 11, 2018 at 11:39.
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Old November 15, 2018, 17:00   #9
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Linked belt tails are getting less rare around my neck of the woods which is a good thing for me. Almost feeling like it may be time to sell a bit but it's a hard decision to pull the trigger on then risk never see another round outside of photographs. These linked are not as nice as the clean individualy boxed from initial supply but once delinked and a bit of cleaning should be fine. Liking the military loaded low visibility tracer with night vision. Like to load a tracer third from bottom of some magazines and the washout of full brightness tracers with Gen 2+ and Gen 3 night vision had about quit the practice.

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Old November 16, 2018, 18:20   #10
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Anyone have a super slick method of delinking rounds with minimum scratches and marks other than running it through a belt fed rifle. Do fine if sacrifice the links but would like to remove without deforming the links or scuffing the cases. This is now my second group of belt tails and will be more soon. Considering spray lube or sizing wax if doesn't make them too slippery to get leverage on. My source has totally mangled as many as not trying to delink and how I got involved. He has seen delinked ammo I have done before that looked almost like never on link but for some reason he is creasing and denting cases so deal is I delink all his and he splits all that he buys with me minimum but says after this last batch may not want more and pass all on to me and says this may be an ongoing opportunity.
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Old November 16, 2018, 18:59   #11
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Anyone have a super slick method of delinking rounds with minimum scratches and marks other than running it through a belt fed rifle. Do fine if sacrifice the links but would like to remove without deforming the links or scuffing the cases. This is now my second group of belt tails and will be more soon. Considering spray lube or sizing wax if doesn't make them too slippery to get leverage on. My source has totally mangled as many as not trying to delink and how I got involved. He has seen delinked ammo I have done before that looked almost like never on link but for some reason he is creasing and denting cases so deal is I delink all his and he splits all that he buys with me minimum but says after this last batch may not want more and pass all on to me and says this may be an ongoing opportunity.
Maybe rig something up in a reloading press - use an empty hole with no die in it and a flat-nose .45-70 dummy round to mimic a bolt stripping the loaded round from the belt? Or a .45-70 with a section of wooden dowel rod seated? Or use an empty .338 or so casing to start the 7.62 round being pushed out towards the back of the links?
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Old November 17, 2018, 14:53   #12
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Used one of wife's dental tools to make a little spoon slips under rear tab of link at case rim twist and as tool cams against rim slides round out of link easy peasy without any scratches, dents or creases. Delinked three belt tails this morning & had one tail from last week, all are nasty like drug through dirt for two days then dropped and left another couple days before policed up. I don't like to tumble loaded ammo (not afraid bullet tip will hit primer but don't want to fracture kernals of powder excessively causing burn rate to change) but this is all about to go through ten to fifteen minutes in crushed walnut then about ten minutes in new corncob with additive to ensure they don't grow green funk or get overly dull while stored. Averaging 75 rounds of M80A1 and 20 rounds of low visibility tracer per tail.

Remnants from one belt tail:



Have added another hundred plus to my M80A1 inventory which is now fat enough to justify keeping both a bolt rifle and repeater sighted in for it. Nice to have standard battle rifle ammo that will bust Level 3 and Level 4 plates if encounter hard shell zombies plus fracture and create nice wound channel in soft zombies as well. Last count was up to 300 real Lake City M80A1 ball and another 200 pulls loaded to where hit within 1/2" of where Lake City hits at 50, 100 and 200 yards. Not tested my reloaded pulls past 200 as don't want to waste too many. Supposed to meet my guy & give him his part this evening who says his guy has at least five more various length belt tails for us and think now that he has played with first I got back to him he will continue deal of splitting all that comes so he can build up a stockpile.

He was considering selling till convinced him to shoot some rounds for groups, shoot a few steel plates and some five gallon jugs of water. Now he knows it's worth more in his magazines than a few extra bucks in bank account. Can't wait for these projectiles in 6.5mm as will rock the zombies from a 6.5 Creedmore. I have 200 loaded in 300 Win Mag from where I scored 500 pulls one time which half went in 7.62x51 and half in 300 Win Mag. If had inventory of M80A1 to match the M855A1 would be a super happy camper and till have minimum of 1,200 rounds of each will not consider selling as may be the difference if the zombies ever show up and need to put hard shell variety down in mass using battle rifles rather than trying to turn handles on big bolt rifles fast enough.

Believe way it's turning up going to regret not selling at top of market as going for over $10 per round on Gunbroker now but rather not kick myself if sell and never able to replace. The M855A1 is selling so cheap no sense in letting it go and it's too good not to.have as turns a 5.56 or 22 Nosler poodle shooter into a big boy rifle.
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Old December 25, 2018, 00:25   #13
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M80A1 will not defeat level IV unless the plate is compromised by previous shots A few of the Level IV plates I've tested have even stopped M80A1 in 300 WM

I don't know where it comes from, but there's been quite a few M993 on the market lately. There's a collector that bought a lot of it, that came from some SWAT team auction. I scored enough for testing level IV at a distance
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Old December 25, 2018, 00:47   #14
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Huey, tumbling does NOT break down powder.

Many tests have been done to prove otherwise.
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Old December 26, 2018, 18:08   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
M80A1 will not defeat level IV unless the plate is compromised by previous shots A few of the Level IV plates I've tested have even stopped M80A1 in 300 WM

I don't know where it comes from, but there's been quite a few M993 on the market lately. There's a collector that bought a lot of it, that came from some SWAT team auction. I scored enough for testing level IV at a distance
I used a NIJ Level 4 ICW plate at 25 feet and broke the plate with the penetrator from a M80A1 still getting through the NIJ 3a soft backer. Have no sponsors for plates above NIJ 3 but I did score a sampling of below ammo through a collector who has a big dog LEO connection. Heven would not sell but ofeed to trade a few at a distinct advantage to him as wanted 338 blue tip and M80A1 in quantity for small numbers to make deal happen. If call these folks it will unleash a wad of crap do not want to be associated with as wI'll get a follow uplease contact asking what your interest is/was.



Quote:
60GR 5.56 ARMOR PIERCING

AP PERFORMANCE DATA
Velocity 3140 FPS
Accuracy Sub-Minute of Angle
Defeats .50 (12.7mm) AR 500 Armor Plate - 100 Yards
Defeats Level 4 Body Armor - 80 Yards


Quote:
97GR 6.8 spc II ARMOR PIERCING
AP PERFORMANCE DATA
Velocity 2800 FPS
Accuracy Sub-Minute of Angle
Defeats .50 (12.7mm) AR 500 Armor Plate - 100 Yards
Defeats Level 4 Body Armor - 100 Yards


Quote:
143GR 7.6251 ARMOR PIERCING
AP PERFORMANCE DATA
Velocity 2900 FPS
Accuracy Sub-Minute of Angle
Defeats .50 (12.7mm) AR 500 Armor Plate - 300 Yards
Defeats Level 4 Body Armor - 100 Yards


Quote:
110GR 7.6239 ARMOR PIERCING
AP PERFORMANCE DATA
Velocity 2690 FPS
Accuracy Sub-Minute of Angle
Defeats .50 (12.7mm) AR 500 Armor Plate - 100 Yards
Defeats Level 4 Body Armor 80 Yards
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Old December 26, 2018, 21:35   #16
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Who makes a 60gr 5.56 AP?
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"An eye for an eye makes us all blind."

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"We, here in America, hold in our hands the hopes of the world, the fate of the coming years; and shame and disgrace will be ours if in our eyes the light of high resolve is dimmed, if we trail in the dust the golden hopes of men."

Theodore Roosevelt
Address at Carnegie Hall
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Old December 27, 2018, 00:14   #17
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From the Modern Arms International military/LEO only line. All of their brass is made by Norma with their personal head stamp. Have heard of very similar AP out in the wild without head stamps. They have various loadings in popular cartridges but the only ammunition I use outside of the military/LEO line is the 220 grain 7.6251 subsonic frangibles. They are sneaky quiet and when make contact come apart creating a massive wound channel and wonder how doctors would treat person shot if survived as nothing but dust to remove.

Got very few of the restricted rounds but did get enough 6.8 AP which is rare and traded off some ammo would likely never fire to get it in the supply chain. Have over twenty 6.8's now counting AR 15's, Mini 14's, Ruger and Remington turn bolts and finding an AP round is near impossible without making your own at the swaging press or altering an existing projectile. Having what is now my predominant fighting rifle and no readily accessible AP was worth the "cost" in trade bait.

Buffman mentioned 7.62 M993 and then there is 5.56 M993 which is hard to find and usually a bit expensive but is not a total unicorn. It pops up on Gunbroker, Armslist, discussion groups, gun shows and from private sellers in usually small lots with prices from $2 to $10 per round based on how much and how greedy the seller is. Most of what I see are tail ends of linked belts. Seems like there are quite a few folks that manage to do a fair number of reloads before entire belt runs through weapon and make sure to pick up their tails which based on price in the wild, their actual knowledge of value or worry about getting caught most I see comes in FTF deals with active duty or recently retired military selling to gun shop employees who then either make dissappear or risk getting caught to turn a large profit.

Before M855A1 and M80A1 it was said in some of the larger sniper hives that existed on rooftops in Iraq would have one rifle sighted or guys would have a good adjustment on their scopes for M993 to use on approaching vehicles to track a better line through glass to take out driver. Sooner an approaching vehicle veered off path and hit an obstacle less chance a car bomb would make it to target or sooner they could shoot the four or five other occupants as they ran for cover when vehicle stopped.

Like Nammo, most manufacturers of M993 and M995 restrict sales to government agencies only and do not provide test ammo for body armor, armor vehicle or ballistic barrier companies and expect the government agency ordering such will issue their contractor test ammo as needed though a couple of vendors will sell to legitimate corporations that make ballistic rated protective products. Bottom line is by time most finds its way to civilian hands price is way too high to bother with considering how easy to replicate with some basic machine shop tools and a bullet swaging press.
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Old December 27, 2018, 02:04   #18
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Coming up blank on Modern Arms.

Got a working link?
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"An eye for an eye makes us all blind."

Ghandi

"We, here in America, hold in our hands the hopes of the world, the fate of the coming years; and shame and disgrace will be ours if in our eyes the light of high resolve is dimmed, if we trail in the dust the golden hopes of men."

Theodore Roosevelt
Address at Carnegie Hall
March 30, 1912
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Old December 27, 2018, 09:53   #19
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Have to force Firefox and I.E. Explorer to go to their site. I get this really nasty warning and all I can figure is there is some sort of monitoring going on for visitors that browsers mistake for a nasty virus. I can post a link if folks really want to go to a site that I believe gets you noticed. Why I reposted much of their information rather than a link. Except for their AP everything else is fairly generic mix of high end projectiles reloads use in their head stamped Norma brass. Here is what their 220 grain 7.6251 subsonic frangibles look like.



After buying their firsts and cosmetic blems and seeing no difference in performance just buy the seconds and save a few dollars. Same accuracy and going to turn into mix of small chunks and dust either way. Notice these have a much different head stamp than their retail ammo so suspect they are cosmetic blems from a special order production run. Have seen multiple head stamps on their blems and through a friend met on the ammunition collectors website seen pictures that were supposed to be from Modern Arms with no head stamp at all which would lend itself to someone using in manner didn't want to leave an obvious trace to source of their ammo.



Here is the direct link if you want to enter, don't be suprised if your browser warns site is a potential virus or can potentially access data on your browsing device. I order from them, have spoken on phone when got calls saying certain orders could not be filled and tale with their technical team which were friendly but would not tell me where the brass sabots were sourced.

https://modernarmsinternational.com/

Notice some of their ammo is in Silver State Armory, PPU and more cases which tells me have times they have to source whatever they can for certain cartridges. Especially oddballs like 6.8 spc II.
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Old December 27, 2018, 23:27   #20
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Yep I've seen that stuff talked about before. Sabot loads, which I've read are superior to smashing through ceramic armor. Although looking through some of their pics, they used a lower end Level IV plate from TenCate (AR500's original Level IV offering), so it's hard to make the level IV call on all offerings without more testing.

Tomorrow I'm testing (hopefully) M993 AP against two level IV plates. One the manufacturer claims will stop it at NIJ distance (45'), and the other I know it penetrates it at 45', but am curious if there is a cutoff distance (100 yards) that a plain jane NIJ 06 plate will stop it.

M995 is more rare than M993, and typically sells for over $30/rd when it's listed. I tested a heavier version of it awhile back, called AP4 (62gr), and it couldn't penetrate level IV at NIJ distance either, at least in one plate. However with so few samples it's hard to make a definitive answer.
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Old December 28, 2018, 11:45   #21
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I had a lot,of Level 4 plates, most pretty good to shoot then got a crazy new neighbor that shoots at deer, squirrel, snakes, whatever with a Remington 742 in 30-06. Pulled the Level 3 plates out of all my home and truck rifle kits and traded for Level 4. Realized if world goes sideways going to be a lot of people using 30-06, 300 Win Mag, etc rather than NATO and combloc battle rifles so raised my threat level and not shooting some of the 2.5 pound $500 Level 3 plates that float.

I have some Level 4 Tencate plates with mix of Dyneema, ceramic and steel all sandwiched in between Kevlar sheets bonded to exterior. Shot one and it super tough. Cool thing is they have a backer of very comfortable antimicrobial medium density foam that makes them super comfortable to wear and reduces backface signature significantly to wearer. Tencate has three distinct separate quality plates of which vary greatly. Have some U.S. made NIJ Level 3 plates that are totally scrubbed, never seen any similar except in DARPA test photos that purchased from the Ukraine as issued to Navy SEAL's in second Iraq conflict. They are totally flexible, float in water and take multiple hits of M80 and will stop M80A1 past 50 feet for a few rounds. So much stuff went missing after Nobama pulled us out of there before able to empty warehouses and its all being sold at the black market weapons bazaars of Moldova, Serbia and Croatia. Funny how I can use PayPal and it shows up via post office.
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Old January 06, 2019, 08:42   #22
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This morning just as sun was rising, pouring cup of coffee as watched sun rising heard gun shot next door and saw where neighbor had killed the doe from a pair of deer been driving me nuts. Every day past month has been a spike buck and doe in my yard or neighbors yard. After he shot the doe I noticed the buck had taken to the brush, crossed behind my house and was in back yard of unoccupied on other side. 13th is last day of season so rang neighbors phone who shot the doe and told him was looking at the buck on opposite side of my house from his, did he want it for freezer if I shot it. He said yes and would come gather it up as knew I was likely getting ready for church. Could not resist so picked up the suppressed FAL loaded with MAI subsonic frangibles and shot it in neck just behind the head. From looks through scope he won't have much trouble removing what's left of the head. Poured myself a hot cup of coffee and called him to say it was down and going nowhere. He said never heard the shot....
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