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Old June 19, 2014, 09:04   #1
Elwarpo
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C2 and equipment when I served

Pic of the Canadian C2a1, Mag bra and cleaning kit from my army days. have i ever told you how i really hated carrying the C2, especially in the summer. You could always spot a c2 gunner in the mess, big square sweat spot on their chest, that bra did not breathe...
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Old June 19, 2014, 09:10   #2
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Nice! Thanks for posting the pic. I was gifted with one of those cleaning kits a few years ago and wasn't sure which country issued them.

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Old June 19, 2014, 13:11   #3
Elwarpo
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It was actually called a section cleaning kit, and you had one for the 9 man infantry section. individual soldiers had pull throughs, oil and brushes they kept in the stock of their rifle

If there is a Nato stock number on it, the 2 digit code specifies the country.

00-09 is the US
20-21 Is canada

A full list can be found on the NATO website
http://www.nato.int/structur/ac/135/...codsp3-alt.htm
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Old June 19, 2014, 13:57   #4
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Hey neighbor, nice lookin C2! I'm sure that beast gets heavier and heavier as the days draws out......but damn I'm sure it was fun to shoot!
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Old June 19, 2014, 15:43   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrM1A1 View Post
Hey neighbor, nice lookin C2! I'm sure that beast gets heavier and heavier as the days draws out......but damn I'm sure it was fun to shoot!
I remember range days. I was a small arms coach and trained recruits. After all the recruits qualified we would have them load up all the mags and have fun. About a dozen of us coaches would stand at the 100 meter mark and fire C2s full auto blasting whole mags. We would put gallon sized food cans (peaches, pears...) that were not eaten and have a firepower display. You start aiming 10 yards in front of the can and firing 30 rounds walk it onto the target. Drop the mag and do it all over again. We would also do the same thing with the Stirling SMGs. Easier to expend all ammo than return it. Best part was the recruits load mags and then clean the range
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Old June 19, 2014, 17:21   #6
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My cleaning kit is well used not as nice as your. The sling is C1 with plastic buckles.

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Old June 19, 2014, 23:12   #7
Douglas Wozny
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Here is my interpretation of the C2A1 [IMG][/IMG]

Will have to take a picture and post it of the Pattern 82 wed equipment that goes with it.
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Old June 19, 2014, 23:50   #8
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I truly detested the C2. It was such a useless, heavy, hungry pig. The FNG always got the C2, as did I on my first posting. It took me a year and a bit to get rid of that p.o.s. to the next gung ho FNG.
Going from a C2 to a C1 was like going from a FAL to an AR. Easy on the arms and shoulders.

When I was in, anyone who wanted a cleaning kit could have one. Nobody wanted to hump it, so we just used the pull through, oil bottle, and a combo tool, of course. I stabbed myself with that combo tool a few times until I learned not to put it in my breast pocket, but keep it in my ruck instead. :-|
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Old June 19, 2014, 23:50   #9
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How much ammo/mags did you carry?
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Old June 20, 2014, 13:02   #10
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Standard battle load was
C1 - 7x20 round mags
C2 - 5x30 round mags

However, the C2 gunner had priority, so after he went through his mags, he would get 20 rounders from the other guys. Standard section tactics was the 2 C2s in the section with the section 2IC would set up the fire base to cover the other 6 maneuvering infantrymen led by the section commander.

Note: This picture is not my current gun, but a picture from when I served (Taken by my buddy John the other C2 gunner in the section).
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Old June 20, 2014, 13:04   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Wozny View Post
Here is my interpretation of the C2A1 [IMG][/IMG]

Will have to take a picture and post it of the Pattern 82 wed equipment that goes with it.
I still have my old webbing in the basement somewhere. along with the steel pot.
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Old June 20, 2014, 13:19   #12
Douglas Wozny
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ExCdnSoldierInTx,
To a point I agree with you about the C2. It is not the best Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). But there are worse ones. Why Canada did not go with the L4 series BREN gun is hard to understand. Since the Canadian Forces saw no active combat during the time the C1/C2 rifles issued, I am assuming (yes I do know what that does) that your experience with the C2 was in training only. Which bring me to my point. I work with a gentleman who was part of the U. S. 3rd Infantry Division and went ashore in the first wave of Operation Dragon (invasion of southern France) on 15 August 1944. He issued weapon was a Browning Automation Rifle (BAR). How we got talking about the BAR is not important but his comments on the BAR are important. In training he felt as do you. He detested the BAR. Once in combat, and these are his words, it was the third best thing I have experienced right after sex and flush toilets. All of which I experienced for the first time after joining the army.

Yes, you are correct the C2 is not the best but like they say it is better than nothing.
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Old June 20, 2014, 17:57   #13
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It was used by Canada in many UN missions and was used in anger during some of those missions. Canada eventually adopted the FN MAG (M240 in the US). The MAG was designed in the 50s (same time as the C2) and would have been a much better choice. While it is a bit heavier (25 vs 17 lbs) it is a much superior weapon for what the C2 was supposed to do, suppressive full auto fire). The Bren was also limited by magazines, for full auto fire, a belt and quick change barrels are superior. The other issue with the C2 is the lack of hand guards. If you were firing full auto (prone with the bipod out was standard) and had to move quickly you either badly burnt your hand or held it by the floppy bipod, either way you were handicapped if you had to shoot while moving. The same was true if you had to change face quickly.
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Old June 20, 2014, 21:26   #14
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Just curious, but how much did the average combat load weigh (ammo, mags, and weapon)?
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Old June 20, 2014, 21:49   #15
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I have my old webbing too. Funny thing though... It shrunk. Still have my beret with the Jimmy on it, and a couple old worn out pair of combat boots.
My head grew too, cuz my 7 1/2" boonie hat don't fit either.

Elwarpo, I don't know how your Brigade was, but we were so chronically short of ammo that we'd raid the GPMG's stash and bust up the links so we'd have enough. They were never light on ammo, but they seemed to think we needed more 9s for our SMGs than we did for our real rifles.
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Old June 20, 2014, 21:56   #16
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Doug, Elwarpo nailed it. Our big tuning was peacekeeping or peacemaking, depending on your point of view.
Our C1/C2 rifles were used in anger often enough where we considered ourselves to be in a war zone. Dropping a sniper who turned out to be a 11 year old kid with a beat up warped barrel Mauser is nobody's idea of fun when it was to be a peaceful mission.
Those things stay with you, sir.

Yes we did much training. Many Canucks also deployed with US units on a regular basis.
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Old June 27, 2014, 13:45   #17
Douglas Wozny
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[IMG][/IMG]

A while back I said I would post a picture of my 1982 Pattern Web Equipment for the C2A1 rifle. Well, I finally got my act together. Sorry for the quality of the picture. I am more at home with a Kodak Browning Box camera than a digital one. The set consist of : 1 each utility belt, 1 each yoke, 4 each hook-strap assembly, waterbottle with cup and carrier, 2 each FN-C2 ammunition carriers, bayonet assembly with scabbard assembly and bayonet carrier (the bayonet is a REAL Canadian bayonet; NOT a UK or Aussie) and 4 each magazine, cartridge, 7.62 mm automatic rifle, 30 rd, C1.

My fifth magazine for this rifle is a British 30 rounder for the 7.62 mm NATO BREN. Sure wish I could get one more Canadian 30 rounder.

Anyway, enjoy!

One other thing the information on the web equipment came from the book entitled "Tangled Web Canadian Infantry Accoutrements 1855-1985" by Jack L. Summers published by Museum Restoration Service, Alexandria Bay, NY, USA/Bloomfield, Ont, Canada.
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War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war.
Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet.
The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

Last edited by Douglas Wozny; June 27, 2014 at 13:50.
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Old July 11, 2014, 21:00   #18
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accuracy

What kind of accuracy on semi ?
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Old July 15, 2014, 20:36   #19
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Aussie perspective on L2A1

We had the L2A1 to go with our L1A1 rifles when I was in infantry in the 1980's. We also had the M60, Bren L4, M16 & M16-M203 (for scouts) and F1 sub machine gun (for truck drivers and sigs and other pogos).

We hardly ever used the L2A1 with live ammo - they were almost entirely used with blanks (training) and only when there were not enough M60's for every section.

This was mainly due to our experience of the L2A1 in live full auto fire - the cone of fire from prone position with the bipod (ie grouping of rounds fired on full auto at the target) was huge - maybe as much as 3-4 metres across at 100 metres. Even at this short range, out of a whole magazine you might only get a few hits on a man sized target. The M60 cone of fire was about 1 metre and the L4 Bren was even smaller. The poor performance of the L2A1 on full auto was most likely due to:
1) Not heavy enough to be stable on full auto with 7.62x51 recoil - even with a bipod
2) Not straight stocked like the M60 and L4 Bren - the bipod legs would jump around and off the ground
3) No buffer system like the M60 - you felt every round and the sight picture just disappeared when you pulled the trigger.

The L2A1 also had the following other disadvantages:
1) Fires from closed bolt - increasing risk of cook offs when hot
2) Fixed barrel which meant it could not sustain auto fire - even if you had enough mags and didn't get tired of changing them.
3) Long 30 round Mag sticking out the bottom - forcing your head up where it is easily shot off by the bad guys
4) Higher cyclic rate than the M60 and L4 (both about 550rpm) - making all the above worse

Like the BAR - the L2A1 was an "Automatic Rifle" and only really good at short bursts of full auto fired from the hip during an assault. People who used these two auto rifles may disagree but the L2A1 did not compete well with the M60 (a General Purpose Machine Gun) or L4 Bren (a Light Machine Gun)when we had the choice and ability to compare them directly.

Regarding accuracy on semi - we used to get about 4 inch 5 shot groups at 100m with the L1A1 (shot prone over a sandbag and about the same with the L2A1. I think the accuracy was similar because other factors (like the hinge in the middle of the gun and sights) determined the accuracy of both guns - rather than the barrel profile.

I hope the above info/perspective helps.
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Old December 22, 2018, 09:28   #20
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I used to carry the FN C2A1 in 1981 when I was a young good shape infantry soldier in the Canadian Army. I was proud to carry this rifle.

Please see some picture of my L2A1Australian converted as an FN C2A1. I keep all the Aussie parts.









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