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Old March 10, 2018, 22:27   #1
Mebsuta
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03A3 vertical string

Look at this vertical string. That was an 8-shot group fired off a sandbag at 50 yds with teh Blair 1903A3 (Remington 4 groove). The orange circle is 2 inches in diameter. Rounds were 47gr H4895, 150 gr Hornady SP, WLR primer, and I forgot what brass. The reason there are 8 shots is because I broke down a Garand clip and banged it through the 03A3.

The crown and the last 1/2 inch of the barrel on this one were pitted, so I used a file on the crown and counter-bored it with a hand drill. I have a new barrel to put on (not that it would help. I am pretty bad), but was surprised by the horizontal part. If only I can get the verical part working. Action screws were a little loose. I will tighten everything up and try again next time.



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Old March 10, 2018, 22:47   #2
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I have to think that a newer/better barrel, with a proper crown, and making sure the bedding isn't springing the barrel will do wonders for it.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:10   #3
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To me the grouping isnt horrible, yes there is vertical stringing but the grouping looks good. There are several rounds that are touching each other which shows some promise, all depends on your point of aim.

Ive seen more problems caused from shooting off sand bags than probably anything else.

To me your vertical stringing looks to be caused more by small changes in your cheek weld or small changes in point of aim.

I would suggest using a log/data book when you shoot. Note your point of aim vs the point of impact. Log every shoot. This will help tell you a better story of what the gun is doing vs what you are doing.

Also, I would suggest you recrown the rifle and make sure everything is nice and tight.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:12   #4
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Could be a host of issues going on, your reloads, a hot barrel, how fast did you shoot this 8 round string, shoulder stock issues, head, your head moving issues, breathing, etc, I'd start with some decent factory loads and see if it still occurs.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:21   #5
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Loose action screws, gets them groups tall every time. If they are tight it's probably tight/loose lower/upper band. Lots of things to fiddle with on the old iron.
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Old March 11, 2018, 05:39   #6
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Looking forward to report with action tightened down.
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Old March 27, 2018, 14:47   #7
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Mebs, I'm not a reloader but I found this info on a bench rest shooting page And I quote " It's generally accepted that if all other causes eliminated, you add powder to a load that vertically strings. " Looking through some of their loads there that specifically use H4895, they are getting best results with 49gr and in some cases 51gr under 150gr projectile.
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Old March 27, 2018, 15:53   #8
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03"s are supposed to have downward tension on the barrel at the forend. Can't remember how much but it will cure the stringing. If the action is tight in the stock put a shim under the barrel at the forend (file card or two to build pressure). Read an article years ago on bedding the 03 I still have it somewhere. It worked great on mine.
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Old March 27, 2018, 16:21   #9
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Mebsuta, found a reference to what the entails. This is gonna be a long damn post but it's verbatim cut and paste. I am interested in at as well as i have a Smith Corona. "

DMK this is what I have come to learn about this. In the stock you have the spots that contact the receiver and barrel. Of course at the receiver recoil lug, which handles pretty much the force of the recoil but there is the tang area also and the flares on each side by the tang. This area is to help hold the receiver straight in the stock and if not properly seated can cause the stock to split. There is a metal sleeve at the rear screw that goes in the stock between the receiver and the trigger guard. So bedding these areas is important but pretty straight forward. These areas are there no matter what kind of stock, military or commercial. The difference with the mil-spec 03 stocks is you have the whole forearm and handguard to deal with. So having said that here is the process I go through to bed these 03s. This will be a bit lengthy if that's ok?
First you must know it is like a house of cards meaning one thing relies on the previous thing to be right. So first you got to get the receiver and trigger guard mated correctly. This is how. Separate the stock from the barreled action. Knock the pin out of the trigger and pull the trigger assembly out. Push the metal sleeve out of the rear of the stock. Assemble the trigger guard to the receiver (no need to have the magazine follower and sping here). What needs to happen is that the trigger guard contacts the receiver ONLY at the front screw at the lug and at the rear with the sleeve in place. This may require filing down a little bit of the side walls of the magazine at the front and at the back of the trigger guard so that a little daylight can be seen between the receiver and the trigger guard magazine walls. Of course not including the front and back of the magazine walls as these ends protrude into the receiver. It is very possible that the metal sleeve could be to long or too short. If it has not been tampered with it should be ok though. When you get it so the trigger guard and reciever meet only at the front and rear screw contact spots you can now torque down the screws without putting any undue stress on the receiver. Are you with me so far? Now having said all that we get to this. The goal is to be able to assemble the rifle with the stock and the screws torqued down and not having any undue stress on the receiver while accomplishing a compression fit of the wood of the stock between the receiver and the trigger guard. Remember how I said the sleeve can be too short or long? Inspect the stock in the rear tang area on the receiver side to see if there is imprinted in the stock the impression of the "D" shaped area around the screw. If so this is good. If no impression that means the sleeve is too long and should be filed so to allow that impression to show in the wood when torqued. The next area is the lug area. With just the action and trigger guard tighten the front screw and count the number of turns it takes from beginning of the threads to drawing the trigger guard tight. Then either mark or what I do is take a picture of the screw so I can see the screw orientation when tight. When you have done this assemble the receiver and trigger guard with the stock in place and make note if the screw comes tight before the stock gets compressed or if the screw requires too much torque before it seats the receiver and trigger guard together. Are you with me so far? If the stock is not compressed enough the receiver will be loose and never seat properly in the stock. Proper torque is about 65 in/lbs. or if you have experience you know when you are torqued. If the screw requires too much torque then the reciever and trigger guard never meet and so cannot complete the dimensional integrity of the structure. 1903A3s have stamped trigger guards. 1903s have machined trigger guards. The machined trigger guards are more rigid and thus lend more support to the receiver to help keep it from "flexing" under load. The differnece is quite minimal though. Once again the goal is to have the receiver and trigger guard become one while tightly compressing the stock between. If the trigger guard won't pull tight against the receiver some very careful inletting is required in the stock at the front of the trigger guard area of the stock. Of course being careful to not remove too much material, so go slowly. If the stock is not tight enough between the trigger guard and the front lug area at the screw this can be handled when using the epoxy to bed it. The way I get to the "sweet spot" in this case is this. Go to the auto parts store and get a set of automotive feeler gauges. You will destroy these in this process. Start by cutting the thin feeler gauges to use as shims to fit in the area of the stock that is immediately behind the recoil lug that is the roughly 1 inch square area that faces in the horizontal plane between the recoil lug and the magazine hole in the receiver. OK? Now start to use increasing thicknesses of feeler gauges until you reach the spot that makes the stock tightly compressed but still allows the receiver and trigger guard to draw tight. You will know this because remember, you made note of the number of turns and the indexing of the front screw earlier. Also let me mention too that not a bad idea to do the same indexing procedure on the rear screw also for later use. Ok, keep these carefully cut to fit shims for later. Now you should have a barreled action, stock and trigger guard that when assembled with the shims in place if needed that will be one when torqued. Now look at the forearm of the stock. You will see at the end of it a section that is perhaps 2 to 3 inches long that when assembled supports the barrel. Using printer paper cut a strip 9 inches long and 3/4 inch wide. Assemble the stock, shims if needed, the receiver and trigger guard with the strip of paper under the barrel the entire length of the support section of the stock. Torque the whole mess down. The paper strip should be in there with enough resistance that if you try to pull it straight out it will tear or come damn close to tearing. In other words you want that stock to be pretty heavy against the barrel, ok? If all that comes together like it should you have done real good. Congrats Now we can start to think about doing the epoxy bedding. Go get some JB Weld and NOT the quick set stuff. In reality you will use only a small portion of it. So you'll mix up way more than you need but epoxy is cheap. Now you are going to take the stock and where the metal sleeve goes in the rear screw hole you are going to drill out the hole in the stock just a bit so the sleeve will fall out if in the hole, OK? Make sure to drill the hole out straight, so no bong hits from now on until your done ok? Now get some Gorilla Glue. I use it cause it expands when it cures so use it not too much, not too little if you know what I mean. Get some heavy gun type grease or axle grease ok? Coat the rear screw, the inside of the metal sleeve, the stock side of the rear of the trigger guard and the stock side of the tang of the receiver. Apply the glue to the inside of the hole in the stock and the outside of the metal sleeve. If you are using the shims in front apply glue to the area and position the shims. Now very carefully slid the sleeve into the stock and assemble the barreled action, stock and trigger guard and torque down. Note before you get it all the way torqued down stand the rifle on the ground butt down and with a mallet lightly tape on the muzzle of the barrel to asure that the recoil lug is firmly against the recoil pad in the stock. Now fully tighen it all down. Go to bed. Next day take it all apart. you will see the shims if used are glued in place as is the sleeve in the stock. Next the actual bedding of the receiver to the stock. You are going to apply epoxy to these areas of the stock. Remember the "D" shaped impression at the rear tang location of the stock you are going to put a small amount of epoxy there around the screw hole but not in the screw hole, ok? Making sure to have good contact of the epoxy to the spot of the "D" and around the actual area where the tang fits in the stock. In other word on the floor of the stock at the "D" but not in the hole and on the vertical walls of the tang area. And it needs to go no further forward than the "D" spot. Remember this, apply only enough so when it is all put together that just a very small amount of epoxy squeezes out of the stock. The in the "flare" areas which is the areas that is just in front of the "D" on the sides where the reciever spreads out to the sides. In that area of the stock apply a little apoxy and once again apply just enough so that when put together it just squeezes out of the stock. Now the recoil lug area. Look at it, you will see a a square cut-out that is where the recoil lug of the receiver sits in the stock. The vertical face of the stock that the recoild lug sits against is the recoil pad of the stock. The top section where the receiver sits down on and where the shims are glued if used is 7/8 inch from the recoil pad to the magazine well. then you have the side walls of the stock. Look at the receiver, you have the side walls of the receiver below the rounded portion of the receiver at the recoil lug and going to the rear. If you were to measure the width of this portion of the reciever and then measure the dimensions of the side walls of the stock in this area you would see that the walls of the stock are a bit wider that the corresponding walls of the receiver. We are going to eliminate this difference from the front of the square cut-out in the stock where the lug sits to 3/4 inch past where the magazine well starts on each side. You will put enough epoxy to make it so when it's all put together that is squeezes out a bit around the front screw hole in the stock and between the receiver and the magazine well of the trigger guard. The point is to make this area a tight fit for the receiver recoil lug so it can have no lateral movement in the stock. Also put a thin coat of epoxy over the spot where you glued the shims if you used them . If you did not need to use the shims still apply a thin coat of epoxy to that 7/8 inch long spot of the stock. Oh and before I forget the wood of the stock has to be clean and dry, no oil or grease where the epoxy will be, ok? JB weld pretty much sticks to everything but still no contamination in those areas, ok? Now we go to the forearm. In the barrel channel in the 2 to 3 inches that support the barrel. You will lay a bead of epoxy down the center of that area. Not too far forward cause to don't want it to squeeze out the front but apply enough so that when its all put together it will squeeze out the sides. Now remember when we checked earlier with the paper strip how much pressure the stock was putting on the barrel? If there was plenty of pressure under the barrel from the stock when you checked it previously then use some sort of clamp to clamp the barrel into the barrel channel when the epoxy is there. So it pushes it out from underneath and displaces it to the sides. If you had good pressure there before then all you are doing is putting epoxy on the sides so the barrel is held tight laterally. If there was not enough pressure under the barrel when we checked earlier then when the epoxy is there do NOT clamp the barrel down in the barrel channel. In this way we will provide both lateral stability and allow the epoxy to provide underneath support also, OK? Now before you do any of this epoxy stuff you need to prep the barreled action and trigger guard. With the heavy grease smear a light coating on the receiver in every possible spot that epoxy might come in contact with, OK?
Then do the same with the trigger guard and the screws. Be sure to get grease into the threads of the screws and the receiver and in to the inside of the metal sleeve that you previously glued into the stock. Ok, I think we might be ready to do the dirty deed. Now with the stock mounted in some type of holding device carefully lower the barreled action into the stock while pushing down and rearward. When in the stock hold it all together and then push the trigger guard into the stock. Now put the screws in and torque. But before you completely torque the screws just as before with your mallet tap on the muzzle to make sure the recoil lug is against the recoil pad of the stock. Clamp the barrel at the forearm if that is what you need to do as we talked about earlier. Be sure to clamp stright down into the stock if you do this. Oh, one thing I missed is that in the exposed areas of the stock that are visable that epoxy might ooz out at, very carefully smear a very light coat of grease on the wood in those spots but be carefull not to get grease in the areas where the epoxy needs to contact. This will makes for easy finish when you are trimming the squeezed out epoxy off later. Are you still with me? Now go to bed. Let it set up for 24 hours. Now comes the fruit of your labor. Loosen and remove the screws. With a wooden dowel and mallet carefully knock the trigger guard out the bottom of the stock through the magazine well of the receiver. Then support the stock and carefully with your dowel and mallet knock the receiver from the bottom in the magazine well area out the top of the stock. Do not try to pull it lose by grabbing the barrel and forearm and pulling apart. When you get it apart wipe off the grease. Inspect your work. Trim off the excess epoxy where it obviously needs to come off and from the areas of the front screw hole in the stock, the magazine well and possibly in the trigger hole in the stock. Having done that now fit the receiver back into the stock. You will find a fit that is almost bordering on a religious experience. At this point you do not want to take it apart more than necessary because each time it's taken apart the fit becomes slightly looser. So do whatever else you need to do so that you put it together only once. So don't forget to slide the barrel band back on before final assembly. Not that anyone would forget to do that Now you can deal with the hand guard Look at the hand guard, it has two clips. These are spring steel. Make sure they are seated in the hand guard as far as they will be allowed. Meaning so the sides sit in the little cut-outs as far as possible. Then take your paper strip again and in the same fashion place the paper strip under the clips and place the handguard in place and hold down and see how tight it holds the paper in place. If it was like the pressure we wanted under the barrel then you are good to go. But I think without any type of help it will be a bit loose. If that is the case you need to find a material that you can place under the clips. What I have found works rather well is Velcro. You know the kind you can buy at the hardware store that has adhesive backing. The felt side I cut a square that I adhere to the clips in the handguard. Pretty simple.
Please pardon my grammar faux paus.
I hope this is enough of an elaboration.


"
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Old March 27, 2018, 17:07   #10
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Sorry this is such a gigantic blob of grammatical shyte but that's what it looked like on the other page too. I'm going to try it on my Smith Corona. It should shoot better than it does, it's damn near new condition.
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Old March 27, 2018, 21:41   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andresere View Post
Mebs, I'm not a reloader but I found this info on a bench rest shooting page And I quote " It's generally accepted that if all other causes eliminated, you add powder to a load that vertically strings. " Looking through some of their loads there that specifically use H4895, they are getting best results with 49gr and in some cases 51gr under 150gr projectile.
Thanks for the info. 49-51 gr of H4895 is pretty hot. I kinda have a feeling adding powder to a load that vertical strings works because it fills the case more completely. I might try a more bulky powder if I'm too chicken to load H4895 with 49-51.

The trigger guard I had on this rifel was a reproduction. I switched for a milled GI that fits better and got everything tight. Just need a day off when it's not raining to go blast it and see what happens.
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Old March 27, 2018, 22:04   #12
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Another thing to check is the barrel pressure on the barrel bed at the front of the lower stock. With the action torqued down, it should take about 4 pounds pressure to lift the barrel from contact with the bed. Most think the Springfield has a free floating barrel but it doesn't.

Check out pages 87 and 88 on what to look for and how to correct it.

U.S. Army Manual TM 9-1270:

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...pringfield.pdf
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Old March 27, 2018, 22:38   #13
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Thanks. I will study that and the wall of text.
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Old March 27, 2018, 23:23   #14
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Post #9 would put Hueyville into vapor lock.
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Old March 28, 2018, 10:47   #15
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From about the middle of post #9:

Make sure to drill the hole out straight, so no bong hits from now on until your done ok?. Oh my word.

Are there other hidden gems here? No, I didn't read it all either.
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Old March 29, 2018, 11:19   #16
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Post #9 would put Hueyville into vapor lock.
I know. When I pasted that shyte and sat back and looked at it, first thing that came to mind was that him under a different pen name?......
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Old March 30, 2018, 21:26   #17
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Post #9 would put Hueyville into vapor lock.
I do at least find a place here and there to break into paragraphs. My first thought looking at that group but very little experience with rifle in question is something is loose and as barrel heats it moves and the rounds with it. My question is did they walk up or walk down? Traditionally a bolt rifle will throw first round high sometimes second but then settles down and puts the rest in a nice cluster.

That nice straight line indicates to me shooter was doing his job reasonably well and something mechanical was causing the stringing. To stop top round or two hitting high if rest clustered would look at my load and adjust powder or more likely add a coating to bullets like moly or Tubbs boron carbide. I would probably not look at the load in this case but the rifle, except if it was not developed with ladder test and might be in worst node. May need a half grain down or half up but that string is not result of improper load for your rifle. My guess is something is loose and as rifle heats it allows barrel to move vertically. Honestly I was turning inside out when read:

Quote:
The crown and the last 1/2 inch of the barrel on this one were pitted, so I used a file on the crown and counter-bored it with a hand drill.
Have a muzzle crowning kit with a 79 muzzle crown cutter (for 11) target crown, a 90 rifle facing cutter, 45 chamfering cutter along with brass pilot set but like my barrel threading pilot set they are in the kit for end of world emergency and can't get to a rifle smith. Even have a low rpm carbide chop saw in the machine shop which cuts steel and stainless tubing perfectly as well as a metal cutting band saw. Have a local smith that will crown a barrel for $50 and thread for $75 which includes re-crowning and guaranteed center so don't have any baffle or end plate strikes on a $900 can. I will use a brass crown lapping tool with pilot from my common caliber set with 120 grit lapping compound or sometimes 60 grit first then the 120 grit on a beater gun someone has dinged the muzzle or let it get rusted up.

Whenever have a barrel cut will request the drop from end so I can lock it down in a vice with holding fixture and play with my crowning tools so if day comes I am THE expert will have a basic feel for the job. How did we keep the crown square using a file? Am hoping that OP assumes we knew he had a kit with brass pilot when used his drill to counter bore barrel And not a drill bit or abrasive cutter from Harbor Freight. Have seen some muzzles where a careful person could greatly improve them in such manner but I have smith cut barrel back to clean rifling and re-crown. Have cut down shotgun barrels and have a Browning plan to do myself very soon. Have a Gilchrist Handle and some of more popular sizes of Clymer bore bushings for opening up chokes and deburring after chopping. Equipped to do some basic muzzle work though have a smith that picks up and drops off stuff a couple times per week at LGS which is easier and known quality. Your stringing is not the crown, as centered as all shots are its actually impressive.

Am interested to see how OP's rifle shoots after snugging up all he could. If had a nicer barrel in hand would be my next step if existing barrel doesn't improve with some of the tricks shared. Most importantly, would get the proper book for rifle with specifications, study them, grab my torque wrenches and make sure every part is tightened to specs.

Might want to own the top two books left hand of bottom shelf pictured:



Hope this lost meets with typical Hueyville diatribe...
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Old April 07, 2018, 07:06   #18
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Focus hard on the front sight

When I see vertical stringing with a rifle using a post front sight, another thing I suspect is the shooter focusing on the front sight part of the time, and on the bull the rest of the time. Blacken your front sight.
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Old April 08, 2018, 00:54   #19
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Vert stringing is breathing or front sight picture is hazy. Try some sight black and make sure point of aim is the same. The way to tell if you are holding tight to where you aimed is to line it up with a breath out. Take a breath and it will move, hold everything the same and breath out and see if its still in the same place as before. Then shoot this way. Breath out and squeeze, breath in after the shot and it should line up as before if you are doing it right. This will insure you are doing your part, then tinker with the rifle if needed.

Hope this helps.
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Old April 08, 2018, 09:20   #20
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Mebs, check this video out. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...igger-control/
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Old May 22, 2018, 06:32   #21
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Here, it did better today. Lucky 5 shot group at 50 yds off a sandbag. 44 grains H4895, LC69 brass, Sierra 125 gr SP, and either WLR or CCI 200 primer. That's my reduced recoil load, because my body hurts for about a week if I shoot a bunch of full power -06 in a 1903.

That's the best I did all day. The other groups I shot were more open, but not all vertical. The change I made from the first picture was use milled trigger guard and tighten everything, and a different load with less recoil. I suck anyway, but it's fun shooting vintage rifels.

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Old May 22, 2018, 07:10   #22
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You've done well.

That would appear to be a nice improvement since your OP.

Sounds like you are enjoying yourself, no matter what's on paper.
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Rounder upper at MidwayUSA.
Favorite color: ham
Wife's favorite color: glitter
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