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Old June 18, 2017, 22:51   #51
yellowhand
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Originally Posted by raubvogel View Post
You know, the scenarios you are describing are not worldwide. If you are so concerned about computers, get them from a country that was not affected and move on.

Unless it is a solar-based event, EMPs will be localized.
I think most of us were speaking about a natural event, a world wide event.

But, it does give me pause to think or believe that if we, just the USA were hit by a few man made EMP's how fast the world world left unaffected would be to come to our aid?

When the man said we're only 9 meals away from anarchy, he was foretelling the future.

Once anarchy takes hold, look at Hugo Chavez's old country, people starving in the streets today, don;t see a lot of countries rushing in to provide aide or put a stop to it.

One thing about being the most powerful country on earth, can think of 20 that would like to see us replaced, so why offer assistance at all???
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Old June 18, 2017, 23:05   #52
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If that thing lets go in my lifetime, my lifetime will be cut short, not that I got more in front than behind me!

Read somewhere, we here in southern AZ, what a 1000 miles from that caldera, would be under a foot of ash???

It ever blows, I would need to give up smoking, that's for damn sure.
I've picked up debris from last time down in Raton at Whittington.

Then again, there's been volcanic activity down in the Raton area a lot more recently than the last big Yellowstone event.

When Yellowstone blows again like the last big one, pretty much everything west of the Mississippi is toast...

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Old June 18, 2017, 23:26   #53
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I've picked up debris from last time down in Raton at Whittington.

Then again, there's been volcanic activity down in the Raton area a lot more recently than the last big Yellowstone event.

When Yellowstone blows again like the last big one, pretty much everything west of the Mississippi is toast...

Forrest
Yepper.
Just noticed you're in Colorado Springs, a whole lot closer than I am to Yellowstone.
If it were to blow, not sure I'd even bother hitting the road.
Somethings are so big, ya just can't outrun them.
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Old June 19, 2017, 15:29   #54
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Will, everything you say above it completely and 100% true.

"It was done before without computers, why not again?"

Short answer, panic and complete breakdown in society as we know it today.

We are on a "just in time delivery" system to supply for all needs to 320,000,000 people.

Anything that breaks that fragile chain, anything at all, will kill off ??? 300,000,000 of our people within 12 months, maybe less.

People of the past did everything you mentioned above, but they did it all in times of relative peace and stability, without having to introduce a totally NEW system from the ground up, all the while millions are dead daily from lack of water, medical care, food stuffs.

We have the talent to pull off a return to the past without computers, but human beings will not stand by and die in place while it was being put into place.

New Orleans was a perfect example of what everyday human beings will be like when the power and everything that makes up normal society goes away overnight.

If what happened in New Orleans hits nation wide, game over.
If what happened in New Orleans hit the whole of the East coast, our major population center, game over.
If we loose the West Coast, California, Oregon, Washington state, we might be able to hold on long enough where it all does not go ten toes up, but the financial hit will ruin this country for lifetimes.

We're not that well prepared to handle the destruction of one major population center, like NYC or Chicago, anything hits a dozen or more at one time, game over.
I don't dispute there'd be a massive loss of life and/or a severe period of incredible hardship, be it the "big one" earthquake on the west coast, which will happen eventually. Or there being a nationwide event, a massive loss of life for the reasons you've stated here.
However I don't think it'd be the end of the country in terms of wiping out the population entirely, "..game over.." as you put it, if that is your position.
I do believe there would be portions of the country literally achieving such a condition, but not the entire country.
It is undeniable there'd be a massive upheaval for however long a period of time, however at some point people would have the desire to rebuild some kind've life again, and there would be enough to build on.
That is simple human nature and people would do so.
Criminals and/or predatory types would exist for a while but it wouldn't take long for that to change. No more of the current legal system hanging over a law-abiding individuals life? Welcome to the old west and bonafide immediate justice. Peoples behavior would change very quickly.
If there were a nationwide event, emp most likely, I suspect life in this country would, when people begin to start over, go back to a very localized level of living such as existed up until about the 1950's.
I suspect the massive loss of life might be one of the things which makes it possible for a resurgence on a local level possible.
There would be likely enough salvageable things left within the depopulated areas such that it would allow those areas that have survived to continue on rebuilding while still relying on salvaged items to just keep going.
Drinkable water, how much HTH pool chlorine will be laying around in empty stores? Quite a bit, nobody in those areas to either use it or know how to use it. Salvage that out of the area and it is easy to use for water purification.
I used HTH pool chlorine to "tune" the chlorine level in the storage tanks when I worked municipal water. Nope, no computers, did the math manually, used a metal coffee can to measure out how much chlorine I needed in the tank & broadcast it into the tank with the coffee can. Very high tech.......
I admit there will be a curve life will have to get past in order to rebuild but I do think the massive loss of life will be a blessing in disguise.
This should NOT be confused with the notion of thinking those people deserve to die so things can be "rebuilt" or "restoration" of proper law or such.
I do not hold to such a view and this should not be construed as such.
There is one thing which I think might be the major killer in the face of people rebuilding a life, simple economics.
Clean, safe, water & reliable electricity, those two things are the major building blocks of modern life. Without those, life as we know it today would not exist as it does.
It is possible there'd be enough technical know-how to get things moving again, first on an improvized level, then on a permanent level.
However water & electricity as provided now are a service, they are not free.
Fuel for power generation costs money, electricity for water treatment and pumping costs money.
How would people pay thier water & electric bill or how would those entities generate a return for themselves in order to keep functioning?
Diesel fuel for RR locomotives to run things? A good improvizational idea and it would work. However at some point oil has to be procured to refine more diesel or what oil is immediately leftover runs out.
If there were a nation-wide event, there will be no money, nobody will have any. A nationwide event, emp? The dollar as it exists will be destroyed and nobody will be coming to the rescue.
No money to purchase oil, either domestically or overseas.
A massive earthquake on the west coast would be a terrible event, but it would not take the country down, the country would take a hit but keep going.
It is the national level event, with the destruction of the dollar and no means to restart economically, which might be the real killer.
Given human nature, I suspect gold & silver jewelry, or silverware, alongside bartering might become an improvised money and a functioning economy start from that point.
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Old June 19, 2017, 16:09   #55
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Wil, we have the know how to rebuild anything and everything.

When Anarchy and Chaos takes over on a grand scale, very little if anything will get done on a large scale to rebuild anything.

My "game over" comment, was not meant to imply loss of ALL life, humans are resilient to the extreme, but more so, as we all know life today.

We'd have a little enclave here, there would be more around the country, and as time goes by, these little enclaves would be linked together and a generation or two or three later, things would begin to improve, maybe, I hope, and pray.

If or when anything goes off, still plan to hunker down, get real hard and mean, with plan to come out the other side upright.
I pray I never see any of it ever occur.
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Old June 26, 2017, 17:03   #56
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Wil, we have the know how to rebuild anything and everything.

When Anarchy and Chaos takes over on a grand scale, very little if anything will get done on a large scale to rebuild anything.

My "game over" comment, was not meant to imply loss of ALL life, humans are resilient to the extreme, but more so, as we all know life today.

We'd have a little enclave here, there would be more around the country, and as time goes by, these little enclaves would be linked together and a generation or two or three later, things would begin to improve, maybe, I hope, and pray.

If or when anything goes off, still plan to hunker down, get real hard and mean, with plan to come out the other side upright.
I pray I never see any of it ever occur.
Agreed, life as we know it now will cease to exist, although that may turn out to be a blessing in disguise given human nature. For certain nobody will be building anything other than local survival at first. Anything past that it could easily take 5 if not 10 years after the fact.

The lawlessness of chaos will be prevalent for a while, however basic frontier justice will put an end to that and likely not take very long.
After that anarchy, in the proper meaning of the word, will prevail and people will start putting things together. Human nature alone will cause this to happen. Eventually a degree of what we have now will return, but I suspect only certain aspects of it, not all of it.
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Old June 26, 2017, 17:17   #57
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All survival is local.
I'd far rather take my chances with earthquakes, Yellowstone going off, BFR's out of the sky, financial collapse, pandemics, its those millions upon millions of panicked people that scares me to death and give me nightmares.
Figure I and mine can survive anything that does not knock us flat on our ass and kill us outright, but thinking of herds of people in chaos mode, scary shit until the great die off occurs.
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Old June 26, 2017, 18:47   #58
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All survival is local.
I'd far rather take my chances with earthquakes, Yellowstone going off, BFR's out of the sky, financial collapse, pandemics, its those millions upon millions of panicked people that scares me to death and give me nightmares.
Figure I and mine can survive anything that does not knock us flat on our ass and kill us outright, but thinking of herds of people in chaos mode, scary shit until the great die off occurs.
Ain't that the truth...

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Old June 27, 2017, 17:23   #59
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All survival is local.
I'd far rather take my chances with earthquakes, Yellowstone going off, BFR's out of the sky, financial collapse, pandemics, its those millions upon millions of panicked people that scares me to death and give me nightmares.
Figure I and mine can survive anything that does not knock us flat on our ass and kill us outright, but thinking of herds of people in chaos mode, scary shit until the great die off occurs.
Panicked mobs don't worry me nearly as much as other things. Mobs in panic are not thinking clearly or in a deliberate fashion or acting on any plans, consequently they can be dealt with by an individual.
Not to mention depending on terrain & time of year, the terrain itself coupled with the time of year will eliminate a lot of those people.

Depending on the severity & scope of the event, governments actions in the face of that event are my first worry. The so-called "laws" of which government claims gives them 'authority' to engage in certain actions, those are the things which will get an individual killed the quickest by one means or another.

Secondly the people who'd come after the panicked mobs, they are the ones I tend to worry about. They will have a plan and are acting on it, and likely have an idea of what they are doing. They will be the dangerous ones for a period of time.
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Old June 27, 2017, 20:23   #60
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Panicked mobs don't worry me nearly as much as other things. Mobs in panic are not thinking clearly or in a deliberate fashion or acting on any plans, consequently they can be dealt with by an individual.
Not to mention depending on terrain & time of year, the terrain itself coupled with the time of year will eliminate a lot of those people.

Depending on the severity & scope of the event, governments actions in the face of that event are my first worry. The so-called "laws" of which government claims gives them 'authority' to engage in certain actions, those are the things which will get an individual killed the quickest by one means or another.

Secondly the people who'd come after the panicked mobs, they are the ones I tend to worry about. They will have a plan and are acting on it, and likely have an idea of what they are doing. They will be the dangerous ones for a period of time.
I agree with both of you. Mobs are dangerous and the air of anonymity afforded by one lends a sense of false courage to the folks who make it up. Mobs can be very dangerous, even if prepared (can my Glock 17 with 52 rounds save me from "all" of them)?

But, the gangs acting under color of law (we are already in a perpetual state of emergency and perpetual state of war) are even more dangerous and better armed and trained.

And yes, the survivors that survived the first round will be far more dangerous, it's a steep learning curve.

Imagine if we could all band together in a properly stocked, defendable and sustainable area. Not all of us would make it, but I'd enjoy the safety in numbers.
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Old June 27, 2017, 21:19   #61
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I agree with both of you. Mobs are dangerous and the air of anonymity afforded by one lends a sense of false courage to the folks who make it up. Mobs can be very dangerous, even if prepared (can my Glock 17 with 52 rounds save me from "all" of them)?

But, the gangs acting under color of law (we are already in a perpetual state of emergency and perpetual state of war) are even more dangerous and better armed and trained.

And yes, the survivors that survived the first round will be far more dangerous, it's a steep learning curve.

Imagine if we could all band together in a properly stocked, defensible and sustainable area. Not all of us would make it, but I'd enjoy the safety in numbers.


RJ, put it together in your area, with PRIOR plans to get out of your area, if need be.
And if ya think you might only have 10, close friends and famliy, double or triple that number.
And be prepared to make new friends quickly.
Something on a National basis could hit all of us in five minutes from now, communications, phone, internet, snail mail could all come to a sudden stop without warning.
The time is now to make plans with people across the nation.
All survival groups will be made up of people who ban together once the shit hits, tha trick, have some basic plans to survive whatever, loose associations with long distance known potential allies and ones close to home.
Folks you'd like to have with ya in a shit storm, drop a few hints, ""ever think about this, yea me too, well hell, come on out to my place, if anything ever happens."
People will remember these "conversations" when they need too.
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Old June 27, 2017, 21:43   #62
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RJ, put it together in your area, with PRIOR plans to get out of your area, if need be.
And if ya think you might only have 10, close friends and famliy, double or triple that number.
And be prepared to make new friends quickly.
Something on a National basis could hit all of us in five minutes from now, communications, phone, internet, snail mail could all come to a sudden stop without warning.
The time is now to make plans with people across the nation.
All survival groups will be made up of people who ban together once the shit hits, tha trick, have some basic plans to survive whatever, loose associations with long distance known potential allies and ones close to home.
Folks you'd like to have with ya in a shit storm, drop a few hints, ""ever think about this, yea me too, well hell, come on out to my place, if anything ever happens."
People will remember these "conversations" when they need too.
I ain't talking about no network, I'm talking about a FAL Nation, at least 5k men and their families, armed with FAL's and skills.
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Old June 27, 2017, 21:59   #63
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I ain't talking about no network, I'm talking about a FAL Nation, at least 5k men and their families, armed with FAL's and skills.
Just a thought, but ya might want to stick with reality.
It would be nice though.
Logistics would be a bitch.
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Old June 27, 2017, 22:18   #64
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Just a thought, but ya might want to stick with reality.
It would be nice though.
Logistics would be a bitch.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
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Old June 27, 2017, 22:36   #65
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I reject your reality and substitute my own.
I knew a fellow that did this once, from all reports, it was one hell of a night, he could even walk straight after a week or ten days.

After that drunken affair of the heart, he never again went off with a 5 dollar hooker with such a deep voice and large hands.

Come to think of it, most of us never looked at him the same way after that night of passion.
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Old June 28, 2017, 01:25   #66
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After that drunken affair of the heart, he never again went off with a 5 dollar hooker.
Back in the day you could get the matinee special, 4 hookers at once for $20.

True story.
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Old June 28, 2017, 06:31   #67
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Post number 54 mentioned gold and silver as potential form of currency. Post SHTF and say 50% death rate then pilfering homes the amount of each that can be picked up from jewelry boxes and safes would put a huge amount of each plus gem stones in circulation. Not to mention most people can't tell a fake from real as I have some plated Dahlonega commerative coins where they did some in .999 pure and a bunch that were plated in .999 and if hand one of each to most they can't tell the difference. Can't eat either, can't treat disease or pain with either, can't purify water with it unless able to make silver impregnated ceramic filters (which means world is still functioning) that as we hit peaks in metals a few years ago sold majority of mine.

If ability to manufacture goods has ceased what is more valuable.. an ounce of gold or 1,000 round of rimfire ammunition? 10 ounces of silver or a 2 week supply of penicillin? As more people starve and die of disease, the more hordes of valuables will be found. The world has always operated on supply and demand. Until modern times most valuable metals were gathered by kings and used by peasants to pay taxes to kings. If someone were to offer me a big pile of gold for some of my pharmaceutical hoard would laugh at them, they better have something I need like fuel, food, etc. Life sustaining products will become post major SHTF currency. Cast lead bullets loaded in cases will be worth more than silver or gold by weight. IMHO & YMMV.
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Old June 28, 2017, 13:34   #68
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Back in the day you could get the matinee special, 4 hookers at once for $20.

True story.
Hookers is a damn good business model to be in at all times.
In the best of times and the worst of times, young men will always desire to get some.
RJ and I plan to open a chain of whore houses after all falls apart, right now taxes, regulations, and health inspection costs are just too high.
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Old August 20, 2017, 05:29   #69
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Following an article we published about supervolcanoes last month, a group of Nasa researchers got in touch to share a report previously unseen outside the space agency about the threat and what could be done about it.
I was a member of the Nasa Advisory Council on Planetary Defense which studied ways for Nasa to defend the planet from asteroids and comets, explains Brian Wilcox of Nasas Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) at the California Institute of Technology. I came to the conclusion during that study that the supervolcano threat is substantially greater than the asteroid or comet threat.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017...a-supervolcano
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Old August 20, 2017, 17:38   #70
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Read that, not sure which concerns me more, men in white lab coats or super volcano's.
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Old August 20, 2017, 18:43   #71
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Never had a $5 hooker. Sounds expensive, Now just what were we talking about?

Earthquakes shit, not here. Maybe a hailstorm or Santa Anna recapture, but earthquake. Nope

Are $5 hookers before SHTF or after? If so I'm saving some junk silver
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Old August 20, 2017, 20:12   #72
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Never had a $5 hooker. Sounds expensive, Now just what were we talking about?

Earthquakes shit, not here. Maybe a hailstorm or Santa Anna recapture, but earthquake. Nope

Are $5 hookers before SHTF or after? If so I'm saving some junk silver
Before, after, a can of beans or three smokes should about do it.
One thing about hookers, they can make money in the best of times or the worst of times.
Something to be said of that, what, not exactly sure, but it do seem like a great business model.
Kind of cash and carry???
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Old August 20, 2017, 22:21   #73
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Just a thought, but ya might want to stick with reality.
It would be nice though.
Logistics would be a bitch.
We need a post SHTF frequency and time. Let's say 0100 GMT at 14.308 mhz.

IMO the 20 meter band is one of the more reliable bands.

Just a suggestion, might be a dumb idea but I think it would be good to have a com plan in place in case the net goes Tango Uniform.
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Old August 20, 2017, 23:52   #74
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We need a post SHTF frequency and time. Let's say 0100 GMT at 14.308 mhz.

IMO the 20 meter band is one of the more reliable bands.

Just a suggestion, might be a dumb idea but I think it would be good to have a com plan in place in case the net goes Tango Uniform.
Would be a great idea, but with all the lone wolfs we have and a huge percentage of others believing a fed lives behind every bush, hard to get folks even somewhat organized.

Something huge hits, folks will find one another, a waste of a lot of good people will occur because of no prior planning, but not much can be done, except among local friends.

The other problem, very few believe anything bad will ever happen to "them".
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Old August 21, 2017, 11:40   #75
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We need a post SHTF frequency and time. Let's say 0100 GMT at 14.308 mhz.
IMO the 20 meter band is one of the more reliable bands.
Just a suggestion, might be a dumb idea but I think it would be good to have a com plan in place in case the net goes Tango Uniform.
Not a totally dumb idea as even if distance does not allow us to physically help each other knowing sit reps came from a Files member would put more credence in than anyone that fired up a radio. Just have to listen to a few VHF local and HF regional/national nets and doesn't take long to realize some operators have lost touch with sanity now, post SHTF no telling what they might try to pass as legit info. While I won't bug out or be planning to head to greener pastures if grid came back up or stayed up around Niagara or other Hydro plants might be good to know like how aggressive the natives are and what direction a group is moving if large organized hoards pillaging a region.

My issue would be coming up at known time and frequency using phone. Have a fair size group of people that use variety digital modes on wide range of bands that know from Zero Hour based on odd/even day of week, AM/PM and a few other variables frequencies and modes will change. Might be a burst of important data in a .txt file sent using a digital mode with "x" minutes for station 1 through XXX to send theirs, could be a multiperson keyboard to keyboard conversation running on PSK31 so literally hundreds could be chatting and follow the ones applicable to you.

Regionally have a group (400 mile radius) that have high power UHF beams pointed toward control stations with grid locations of alternate control stations and all group members. Have taken steps that if one persons list is compromised all persons exact location is not compromised. If controls and alternates go down then at set times all would listen on an omnidirectional and transmit on beam. Next transmit time rotate beam "x" degrees till worked a 360 radius and will discover direction to other group members. May discover only eight of the group are still on air but antennas are so directional if not pointed directly in someone's path will never know the signal blew by your antenna farm if just a couple miles left or right of intended recipient. Can push a "wall of text" with image or two plus weather report with image(s) in one push, receiving station can verify check-sum, send his packet and then go silent in under 90 seconds five minutes max if big. All have each group members PGP public keys for enough encryption that MIT claims NSA would take days of super computer time per message to crack unless PGP has a back door now but all running a version that is older and fairly well known to be secure and use one time scratch sheets already distributed so even if cracked and read, if didn't have the book of single use sheets wouldn't know if 32 rocks were 32 live people, 32 dead, 32 military troops or 32 inches of snow. This means would have to be almost in direct path of signal to receive, be on right frequency at right time as missing one character of transmission after scanner locks on have missed entire message. Have to know which software package used for transmission, compatible version, have scratch pad or don't get this groups shared data. Locally this would be great for swapping info on violent group movements in area without them knowing are being tracked to setting up a drop point for swap of critical supplies. Say at "x" time a bottle of 90 Cipro tablets will be at location "a", please leave 1,000 large rifle primers under old pallet at location "b" and please don't shoot each other if pass on trail between locations "a & b". Small group is not many and all in a days walking distance of each other. Of course skilled operators in path or located 360 from direction of beam or other group members and close would capture. If scanners record traffic like mine could likely find right software to decode, then the odd scratch pad words do some guessing and with image(s) thus understand most of message.

Take about a week to see who is still alive and transmitting in the three groups participate with. One national, one regional and one local. Larger the group, less technical and complicated the means of communication. Our little local group requires a properly polarized beam in very unpopular band with unlocked radio to transmit outside of ham bands, computer with correct software or Smartphone/tablet that compatible along with Scratch Pad and knowing which page for which day. If electrical and communication grids go down its going to suck.

Personally think a 30 day shutdown of both would cull so many unprepared, weak, dumb and such from the herd that after their month of uninterrupted in-house repairs and upgrades can't do while systems energized the 30% population loss would purge so many morons and liberals that are unable to make it a month our country would be much better off. Just a month and the semi resourceful would find family and friends to prop them up that long and all the oil and such dot gov could divert to national reserves would be hugely important if had to go to war. Assuming only do this if able to shut down world wide power and comms, our military could spend that month just ripping certain areas to shreds without press coverage. Could blame the natives in each area. Imagine the French government having a month to kick doors and waste anyone that even resembled a middle eastern immigrant. Same with Brits, Belgium and others. Month later lights come on, majority of terrorists are dead world wide, majority of people who can't gather water or have a few weeks food, gun to protect their stuff were all gone and new turbines and transformers in power plants would be a nice reset button on society.
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Old September 05, 2017, 20:59   #76
jyo
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Unhappy EQs

I live in SoCal---I've lived thru three major EQs (and three major riots) during my decades here---prepping for an EQ is pretty much the same as any major event---all the usual stuff + meds + ammo will get you thru till help arrives, but expect to be on your own for at least a week---and probably a lot more...
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