The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The HK Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 12, 2019, 09:34   #1
jimmieZ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 319
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Central Florida USA
Posts: 927
CETME L Observations

In fitting various surplus and new made mags to my rifle I note the following: If the steel block that forms the rear of the mag well was moved back .010 to .020 in. most mags would fit fine. The mag well is just a tad too short in length (front to back). Even new mags show more marking in the rear trough than any where else. Again, not a big problem with the number of mags I've got - 2 out of 3 surplus mags are useable.

Jim
jimmieZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 12, 2019, 16:06   #2
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Who built it? HMG? MCM? Homebuild?
I can say for certain that the receivers and weldaments that HMG has produced are good, but not perfect. There's a lot of little things that are off just enough to cause some quirks.

(also post some pics man, love to see everyone's CETME L)
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12, 2019, 16:43   #3
jimmieZ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 319
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Central Florida USA
Posts: 927
This is a new MarColMar rifle - as shown in the photos attached to the " My New CETME L" posting.
jimmieZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 12, 2019, 20:21   #4
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
It seems I've read MCM has some very specific instructions about what mags will work and should be used with these rifles. In other words not every run of the mill AR mag you try is going to fit and only some of those that will, will run. There are comments about this in the owners manual.

This rifle's weak link is the mags, that's a matter of recorded history.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 12, 2019, 22:57   #5
Combloc
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 55596
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 933
Save yourself frustration and just use Okay Industries GI magazines. That's what MCM recommends and they will sell you all you want at 10 bucks a pop.
__________________
I ain't too bright!
Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.
Combloc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 13, 2019, 13:11   #6
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
This rifle's weak link is the mags, that's a matter of recorded history.
From what I've read that was more to do with poor QC on Spanish magazine production than say, tolerances in the mag well. Is that what you're referencing or do you know of other issues as well?
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 11:19   #7
raubvogel
Registered
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 64403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.92 Dreamin View Post
From what I've read that was more to do with poor QC on Spanish magazine production than say, tolerances in the mag well. Is that what you're referencing or do you know of other issues as well?
A sure way to win a battle is to ensure the enemy has only Santa Barbara CETME L magazines.
__________________
All I'm really asking for here is a knife that will not jam and a unicorn that doesn't need sharpening. Will_Power
It's been my experience that all you really need to harvest a deer is a car. They come right through the windshield just fine. 357ross
That poop is priceless. MFC
raubvogel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 18:15   #8
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.92 Dreamin View Post
From what I've read that was more to do with poor QC on Spanish magazine production than say, tolerances in the mag well. Is that what you're referencing or do you know of other issues as well?
This is the gist of what little I've read. Spanish mag production was abysmal. Seems I've read soldiers used them once and then discarded them sometimes. So while mag quality was definitely an issue the rifles themselves are magazine sensitive. The MCM owners manual leads me to believe this is why they chose a single common and quality mag producer to build the rifles around. The rifles won't allow any slop or inconsistent magazine placement or weak springs so they chose a mag and that's the one MCM recommends users use with the rifles. They warn in the manual that not all AR mags are going to fit, this isn't intentional, just the result of the tight engineering.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 19:30   #9
jimmieZ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 319
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Central Florida USA
Posts: 927
It's one thing to have "tight" engineering and quite another when that self-serving approach keeps one from using quality NATO magazines - regardless of country of manufacture. It's a damned good thing MarColMar isn't building a rifle intended to do battle. Don't get me wrong - I really like the rifle I got, but if you're spending over $2 million to do your construction correctly don't you think a little extra work on mag placement could have occurred?

Jim
jimmieZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 19:50   #10
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by raubvogel View Post
A sure way to win a battle is to ensure the enemy has only Santa Barbara CETME L magazines.
You have no idea how much it pains me to know that otherwise adequate rifle designs have been absolutely sabotaged by corner cutting at Santa Barbara. I have such a soft spot for roller delayed designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter
So while mag quality was definitely an issue the rifles themselves are magazine sensitive. The MCM owners manual leads me to believe this is why they chose a single common and quality mag producer to build the rifles around.
I think this may have something to do with the inconsistency of supposed """STANAG""" commercial magazines in the market. I seem to recall a forum conversation I saw between some of the MCM team and an Apex gun parts rep talking about it. I'll see if I can source and quote what i'm remembering.

On an personal level I can say that I've ran into magazine issues specifically related to that-- even from what should be reputable Gov suppliers. Modified Gen 3 PMAGS have worked flawlessly so far. Haven't tested Lancer L5's but just from handling they appear to work out of the box and i suspect will be the best functioning so far.

This may differ from MCM rifles since they made some changes in the mag well area, but I suspect others will have similar experiences.

Edit: Found it
http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum...L-Rifles/page6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarColMar Firearms
We have tried three different makers of STANAG mags, and our design did change slightly the angle and depth of the mag to make STANAG mags the preferred magazaine for the CETME L... as the original mags are not good all around. Although imperceptible to the shooter and owner, it works great.

The only issue we have had so far, is with STANAG mags that are NOT STANAG... LOL as in they are producing mags that are OUTSIDE the STANAG standard.
Although it does seem like he's talking specifically about mag catch issues.

Last edited by 7.92 Dreamin; April 14, 2019 at 19:56.
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 20:39   #11
Combloc
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 55596
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 933
It's more than just magazines that were the problem as far as QC goes. I had a chance to fire an as issued select fire CETME recently. No matter what magazines were used, it was a jammomatic. IMO, if the worst thing you have to worry about with the MCM rifle is the fact that some magazines won't fit, they knocked the ball out of the park.

The original rifle I shot is the top one shown below. Click on it and the picture will get larger:


I also fired a select fire rifle built by MCM and it ran like a sewing machine. There is no question that MCM did their homework. Just accept the fact that only certain magazines will fit and be happy you have one that is made so well. In my experience, they really are NICE rifles!
__________________
I ain't too bright!
Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.

Last edited by Combloc; April 14, 2019 at 20:51.
Combloc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 21:30   #12
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combloc View Post
I had a chance to fire an as issued select fire CETME recently. No matter what magazines were used, it was a jammomatic.
Out of curiosity can you remember what kind of malfunctions you were getting?
also you lucky SOB lol-- your entire thread is just incredible. cool experience
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2019, 23:21   #13
Combloc
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 55596
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 933
All were failure to feed. Multiple GI magazines.

P.S. Yes, I had a good time. LOL.
__________________
I ain't too bright!
Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.
Combloc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 11, 2019, 14:08   #14
jimmieZ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 319
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Central Florida USA
Posts: 927
Range Report - My CETME L - The Good, The Bad & The Ugly

Well, I finally got a chance to shoot the new CETME L from MalCoMar this past week. The finish on the rifle I received is just great and I was chomping at the bit to get her on target. To say I was excited would be am understatement. However, things started getting bad almost immediately. I had the Okay mag that came with the rifle and it fit fine - but don't you dare touch that mag while firing or the gun stops. If you're very careful about where your supporting hand is, and it doesn't touch the mag, you might get off more than 6 shots in a row. As was first reported by Combloc, the rifle shot very high and left right out of the box. OK, not quite as bad as the first Combloc range trip but bad enough that there is no more room for adjustment after I settled the rounds into the black - at 50 yards! The rear sight is about all the way to the right and just looks way off to me (the ugly). I thought MarColMar addressed this issue. I will contact MarColMar andsee what they suggest I do with this carbine.

Jim

Last edited by jimmieZ; May 11, 2019 at 14:19.
jimmieZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2019, 12:06   #15
jimmieZ
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 319
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Central Florida USA
Posts: 927
Dave Bane contacted me and will make this right. He further explained how this issue developed, how their first attempt to fix it went and, finally, what they are doing now so this will not be anyone else's problem in the future. I really think they have this issue in control at this time.

Jim
jimmieZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2019, 16:02   #16
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmieZ View Post
Dave Bane contacted me and will make this right. He further explained how this issue developed, how their first attempt to fix it went and, finally, what they are doing now so this will not be anyone else's problem in the future. I really think they have this issue in control at this time.

Jim
Good to hear. Still, seems they'd want to be sure any remaining inventory would have been checked for the flaw before they were shipped.
What do I know, however. There may be a good reason this didn't happen.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16, 2019, 11:57   #17
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
I just got mine - haven't taken it to the range yet - but ONE thing needed an immediate fix I couldn't stand it - and certainly couldn't use the rifle until I resolved the problem.

The rear sight aperture on the CETME L is atrocious. The big flats on the sights are MUCH too wide and the 200 meter aperture is MUCH to small. Until I can get a good A1 rear sight assembly to replace it with, I disassembled the CETME's rear sight assembly and recontoured the 200 meter aperture flat (with a file and a drill) to approximate the size (diameter) and shape of the good old A1 200 meter sight.

I noticed that if you want to add additional range to the windage capability of this rifle all you would need to do is to shorten (decrease the width) of the CETME's rear sight aperture L. It is unnecessarily wide and lends itself to this relatively easy fix.

Otherwise it appears to be a nice well made rifle. Mine will seat and cycle dummy rounds with OK USGI mags, FUSIL steel 30rd mags, and Lancer hybrid mags. Nothing else that I have would fit - let alone function.

If the rifle runs it will be well worth the money - after all where else can you find a roller delayed blowback rifle that uses $10 AR mags

https://imgur.com/3v7IewB

I only did the 200m aperture - left the other one alone. It makes a HUGE difference for me. Touched it up with a little cold blue after I finished filing/drilling - then I topped that off with a little high temp ceramic auto paint. Now I have a useable sight. I didn't do the other flap since I will never use it. The opening on the 200m aperture is actually a little LESS than the actual opening on a 200m AR rear sight.

If you look at the photo you can judge for yourself how much of that sight flap could be narrowed in order to provide for more lateral movement of the sight - providing the shooter with a greater range of adjustment for windage

My next thought is to do a little something with those two large verticle flaps at the rear of the sight - in order to open up the viewing channel. I'm still thinking about that one.

If you're overly nervous about doing something to the rifle's original "configuration" Apex has replacement aperture L flaps for the CETME L for $17



QUOTE=jimmieZ;4736117]Dave Bane contacted me and will make this right. He further explained how this issue developed, how their first attempt to fix it went and, finally, what they are doing now so this will not be anyone else's problem in the future. I really think they have this issue in control at this time.

Jim[/QUOTE]

Last edited by ServiceRifle; May 16, 2019 at 16:35.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16, 2019, 14:15   #18
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
The rear sight aperture on the CETME L is atrocious. The big flats on the sights are MUCH too wide and the 200 meter aperture is MUCH to small.
It's actually not as bad as you would think during practical use.
Except in low light. It's worse than anything you can imagine as soon as light starts fading.
Can you post pics of your modification? I thought about doing it with mine but I wanted to keep it in original configuration. Would't mind seeing how it looks.
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16, 2019, 14:34   #19
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Link to photo of my "reconfigured" 200m aperture. Link is ABOVE - in edit to my initial post

Last edited by ServiceRifle; May 16, 2019 at 16:15.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16, 2019, 21:04   #20
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I just got mine - haven't taken it to the range yet - but ONE thing needed an immediate fix I couldn't stand it - and certainly couldn't use the rifle until I resolved the problem.

The rear sight aperture on the CETME L is atrocious. The big flats on the sights are MUCH too wide and the 200 meter aperture is MUCH to small. Until I can get a good A1 rear sight assembly to replace it with, I disassembled the CETME's rear sight assembly and recontoured the 200 meter aperture flat (with a file and a drill) to approximate the size (diameter) and shape of the good old A1 200 meter sight.

I noticed that if you want to add additional range to the windage capability of this rifle all you would need to do is to shorten (decrease the width) of the CETME's rear sight aperture L. It is unnecessarily wide and lends itself to this relatively easy fix.

Otherwise it appears to be a nice well made rifle. Mine will seat and cycle dummy rounds with OK USGI mags, FUSIL steel 30rd mags, and Lancer hybrid mags. Nothing else that I have would fit - let alone function.

If the rifle runs it will be well worth the money - after all where else can you find a roller delayed blowback rifle that uses $10 AR mags

https://imgur.com/3v7IewB

I only did the 200m aperture - left the other one alone. It makes a HUGE difference for me. Touched it up with a little cold blue after I finished filing/drilling - then I topped that off with a little high temp ceramic auto paint. Now I have a useable sight. I didn't do the other flap since I will never use it. The opening on the 200m aperture is actually a little LESS than the actual opening on a 200m AR rear sight.

If you look at the photo you can judge for yourself how much of that sight flap could be narrowed in order to provide for more lateral movement of the sight - providing the shooter with a greater range of adjustment for windage

My next thought is to do a little something with those two large verticle flaps at the rear of the sight - in order to open up the viewing channel. I'm still thinking about that one.

If you're overly nervous about doing something to the rifle's original "configuration" Apex has replacement aperture L flaps for the CETME L for $17



QUOTE=jimmieZ;4736117]Dave Bane contacted me and will make this right. He further explained how this issue developed, how their first attempt to fix it went and, finally, what they are doing now so this will not be anyone else's problem in the future. I really think they have this issue in control at this time.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

Nice mod. That is a seriously narrow range of adjustment and I can understand why you'd want to "fix" it.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 17, 2019, 13:55   #21
ncreptile
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 39586
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 127
One good thing that can be said about MarColMar is they take care of their customers. The owner seems to take problems as a fun challenge rather than trying to make excuses/pushing it off. Not only from my experience but seeing others posts they really seem to take pride in their product/own mistakes.

Mine jammed quite a bit initially but after 4-5 magazines all that stopped. Guess it was a break in period.

Hope your issues got resolved.
ncreptile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2019, 18:24   #22
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
I never could leave well enough alone.

Here is a photo of my new CETME L with a significant sighting improvement. I pulled the factory sight assembly and put it in a little plastic bag in case I ever decide to restore it to its original configuration.

I took an older Trijicon TAO1 and installed it on the CETME L in place of the rear sight. Please note that this is a ONE WAY TRIP for the Trijicon - there is no going back. The bottom mount base needed to be milled back in order to fit in the CETME's sight channel. Unfortunately I am not enough of a machinist to make it detachable (although it is removable). I installed four little set screws (two on either side of the Trijicon's base) in order to make up the difference in width (the base vs the channel). So its snug as a bug in a rug - and the set screws will give me some ability to adjust the scope alignment.

The CETME L's rail would not permit the TAO1 to sit back as far as I needed it to in order for me to use it. Here it is

https://imgur.com/11G6gNb
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2019, 13:23   #23
hansellhd
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 31152
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,302
I had the CETME L out for the 1st time today (purchased back in Feb.) was shooting at the 50 Yard range just to zero the red dot.

I put 120 flawless rounds down range with 4 mags of two different manufactures, using 62gr. green tip. Needless to say very happy with
this rifle. No breakin required at all, it's also very accurate and fun to shoot.

Big thumbs up to Dave @ MCM for bringing this rifle to market in a reliable form.

__________________
HDH.
hansellhd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 30, 2019, 14:02   #24
Texgunner
long-time Texas taxpayer
Silver Contributor
 
Texgunner's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 4653
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Brokenoak in central Texas-Milam county
Posts: 8,729
^^^^

Come on Santa, please read this thread!
__________________
"The rock of democracy will founder when people think of people unlike themselves as the "other"-Teddy Roosevelt

My daddy was a cowboy in his younger days, wild as the west Texas wind. He once told me, "Son, death is a horse you got to ride. So you better get your saddle ready."-Mick "Pappy" Connors

heavily armed, easily pissed.
Texgunner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 15:54   #25
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Just received one of these from Atlantic, gray one that kinda looks green but thats ok, I like the color.

Tried it with two colt USGI 30rd mags and the bolt wasnt picking up the rounds, they are NOS, but the Okay that was supplied and the other three Okay mags I have here work 100%. Okay 20 round doesnt fit at all. I'll grab a few more Okay 30 rounders, cheap enough..

But the rear sight has to be cranked all the way to the right and it its still hitting about 1" to the left at 100 yards. Looks like the front sight post may be canted a bit to the right. Will call them next week to see what they can do with it.

Overall I really like it, smooth shooting and rather stylish looking

kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 16:43   #26
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Here's what I had to do to mine to get it on target with the rear sights (the original CETME sight is absolutely horrible). I got a spare original flip sight "L" from Apex just in case I want to restore the rifle at some point in the future. Anyway - I reshaped the rear "L" sight - I narrowed it in order to give it more lateral adjustment - and I reshaped the flaps and opened up the aperture to approximate the aperture of a USGI A1 sight aperture. It gives the rifle a far more useable rear sight picture.

https://imgur.com/GbvL1qA
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 17:24   #27
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
Here's what I had to do to mine to get it on target with the rear sights (the original CETME sight is absolutely horrible). I got a spare original flip sight "L" from Apex just in case I want to restore the rifle at some point in the future. Anyway - I reshaped the rear "L" sight - I narrowed it in order to give it more lateral adjustment - and I reshaped the flaps and opened up the aperture to approximate the aperture of a USGI A1 sight aperture. It gives the rifle a far more useable rear sight picture.

https://imgur.com/GbvL1qA
I may just do that, only need a couple clicks to get it over enough. Being a little over to one side doesnt really bother me, just want to get the POI correct.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 17:34   #28
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2112 View Post
I may just do that, only need a couple clicks to get it over enough. Being a little over to one side doesnt really bother me, just want to get the POI correct.

Here's the get out of jail free card from Apex - just in case - $17

A USGI aperture will not work - as the diameter of the adjustment screw is different. I believe the CETME L's sight adjustment screw is 3mm - so be careful with those threads.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/rifles/...ture-good.html.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 19:39   #29
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
Here's the get out of jail free card from Apex - just in case - $17

A USGI aperture will not work - as the diameter of the adjustment screw is different. I believe the CETME L's sight adjustment screw is 3mm - so be careful with those threads.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/rifles/...ture-good.html.
Just ordered a sight leaf from apex, I needed some other stuff so I added that.

Out of curiousity, is the bolt gap on the L measured different than the usual HK? Mine is zero. I didnt check it before I fired it, did some searching and found some arguing about the Ls, Apex measured .014-.018 before de milling some according to some posts.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 19:49   #30
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2112 View Post
Just ordered a sight leaf from apex, I needed some other stuff so I added that.

Out of curiousity, is the bolt gap on the L measured different than the usual HK? Mine is zero. I didnt check it before I fired it, did some searching and found some arguing about the Ls, Apex measured .014-.018 before de milling some according to some posts.
I'd be interested in know the answer to the bolt gap question too.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 19:55   #31
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I'd be interested in know the answer to the bolt gap question too.
Have you checked yours? Some say you have to check with a GO gauge but many people say thats wrong and you check an L like any other HK. If thats the case zero is not good..
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 20:11   #32
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
I checked mine like an HK - on an empty chamber with the hammer down - mine measured .012"

I wonder if HK rollers work on the CETME's
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2019, 22:09   #33
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I checked mine like an HK - on an empty chamber with the hammer down - mine measured .012"

I wonder if HK rollers work on the CETME's
If I close the bolt and drop the hammer on a .002 feeler gauge I can turn it over and it will hold the whole feeler gauge set lol. Dont have anything smaller than a .002..

Rollers look different to me, either way its a new rifle and I'm not dealing with it. Looks like this one is going back.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 01:59   #34
raubvogel
Registered
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 64403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combloc View Post
It's more than just magazines that were the problem as far as QC goes. I had a chance to fire an as issued select fire CETME recently. No matter what magazines were used, it was a jammomatic. IMO, if the worst thing you have to worry about with the MCM rifle is the fact that some magazines won't fit, they knocked the ball out of the park.

The original rifle I shot is the top one shown below. Click on it and the picture will get larger:


I also fired a select fire rifle built by MCM and it ran like a sewing machine. There is no question that MCM did their homework. Just accept the fact that only certain magazines will fit and be happy you have one that is made so well. In my experience, they really are NICE rifles!
Interesting to know. In another forum there is someone who was/is in the Spanish military and said the two main issues with the CETME L were springs and magazines. Springs were hard to get because supply issues but magazines were addressed by doing training maneuvers with US military and then picking up the discarded magazines. In fact he claimed that a CETME L that was "armored rebuilt" (they got new springs that did not suck) was better than the 416.

If you want I can dig out the thread.
__________________
All I'm really asking for here is a knife that will not jam and a unicorn that doesn't need sharpening. Will_Power
It's been my experience that all you really need to harvest a deer is a car. They come right through the windshield just fine. 357ross
That poop is priceless. MFC
raubvogel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 11:28   #35
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Talked to Dave at marcolmar today and they will fix the sight issue if I send it in, he also said the small bolt gap is acceptable on the Spanish L but if I'm concerned sent it in and they will go over it.

Nice guy to talk to, sounds like they will do anything they can to make a customer happy.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 11:31   #36
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2112 View Post
If I close the bolt and drop the hammer on a .002 feeler gauge I can turn it over and it will hold the whole feeler gauge set lol. Dont have anything smaller than a .002..

Rollers look different to me, either way its a new rifle and I'm not dealing with it. Looks like this one is going back.

My understanding as to how you should measure the bolt gap is to FIRST cycle the bolt, then SECOND drop the hammer, and then THIRD turn the rifle over so that you can get to the bolt gap through the mag well and then FOURTH insert the feeler gauge. If CETME L is the same as HK the smallest that is acceptable is .004" and the max is .020"

This may not make a difference with your rifle BUT you sure don't need a SMALLER (than .002") gauge
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 12:55   #37
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
My understanding as to how you should measure the bolt gap is to FIRST cycle the bolt, then SECOND drop the hammer, and then THIRD turn the rifle over so that you can get to the bolt gap through the mag well and then FOURTH insert the feeler gauge. If CETME L is the same as HK the smallest that is acceptable is .004" and the max is .020"

This may not make a difference with your rifle BUT you sure don't need a SMALLER (than .002") gauge

That is how to measure bolt gap, I have a few roller lock rifles and keep an eye on them all the time. My understanding was .004 min as well but Dave says the L isnt measured the same way and with tolerence stacking they go out the door from zero to .014. I have read several internet discussions (arguments) about the L version and I'll defer to Dave on it for these rifles. It runs fine with no odd wear or overpressure signs, I'll probably end up sending it in to fix the sights and they can look at the bolt gap.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 13:16   #38
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2112 View Post
That is how to measure bolt gap, I have a few roller lock rifles and keep an eye on them all the time. My understanding was .004 min as well but Dave says the L isnt measured the same way and with tolerence stacking they go out the door from zero to .014. I have read several internet discussions (arguments) about the L version and I'll defer to Dave on it for these rifles. It runs fine with no odd wear or overpressure signs, I'll probably end up sending it in to fix the sights and they can look at the bolt gap.
Did they tell you how they would "fix the sights" - short of rebuilding and rewelding the front tower and the rear sight fixture. If you are only a little way off horizontal do you want to go to the expense and trouble of sending your rifle in when you could narrow the rear aperture L
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 14:11   #39
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
Did they tell you how they would "fix the sights" - short of rebuilding and rewelding the front tower and the rear sight fixture. If you are only a little way off horizontal do you want to go to the expense and trouble of sending your rifle in when you could narrow the rear aperture L
They will pay the shipping both ways, from what I understand they will just rotate the front sight and re-pin, like an AK with a canted sight. Said they built a new jig for sight alignment. Sight tower doesnt look welded anywhere, it doesnt take much front sight cant to throw off the rear sight a lot. If it didnt have that window on the rear sight block moving it over more wouldnt bother me, its too far over already.

I think I would feel better letting them look at the bolt gap as well, it goes against all my roller lock understanding to have no gap at all. Best have them look at it.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 15:10   #40
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
I received this back from MARCOLMAR a few minutes ago in response to a question about the interchangeability of HK rollers in a CETME L rifle. Dave the owner responded to me and asked me to post the following here on FALFILES


Please post this on the FAL FILES… I’m not a member there…

FYI Guys...

I think we covered this before, but on the CETME L you cannot measure bolt gap like you do on a German HK roller locking gun...

The Spanish used different length bolt heads, and different length locking pieces vs. rollers to manage recoil impulse.

Thus the only way to understand how to build the gun from mixed parts, is to measure the internal dimensions of the trunnion, and use this to combine parts to reach the desired power outcome. That is why we built a trunnion measuring jig...

THUS you cannot "measure bolt gap" to understand the power / wear on a CETME L...

Dave Bane
Owner
MarColMar Firearms LLC

No the Spanish made one size of rollers, which required the above to be true.


Dave Bane
MarColMar Firearms LLC
sales@marcolmarfirearms.com
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 01, 2019, 15:48   #41
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I received this back from MARCOLMAR a few minutes ago in response to a question about the interchangeability of HK rollers in a CETME L rifle. Dave the owner responded to me and asked me to post the following here on FALFILES


Please post this on the FAL FILES… I’m not a member there…

FYI Guys...

I think we covered this before, but on the CETME L you cannot measure bolt gap like you do on a German HK roller locking gun...

The Spanish used different length bolt heads, and different length locking pieces vs. rollers to manage recoil impulse.

Thus the only way to understand how to build the gun from mixed parts, is to measure the internal dimensions of the trunnion, and use this to combine parts to reach the desired power outcome. That is why we built a trunnion measuring jig...

THUS you cannot "measure bolt gap" to understand the power / wear on a CETME L...

Dave Bane
Owner
MarColMar Firearms LLC

No the Spanish made one size of rollers, which required the above to be true.


Dave Bane
MarColMar Firearms LLC
sales@marcolmarfirearms.com
Thats what he told me earlier on the phone, just didnt remember exactly what he said since we were discussing a few different things. I'm going to stop reading about bolt gap on the internet and go put a few more rounds through this thing today
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 02, 2019, 08:51   #42
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I received this back from MARCOLMAR a few minutes ago in response to a question about the interchangeability of HK rollers in a CETME L rifle. Dave the owner responded to me and asked me to post the following here on FALFILES


Please post this on the FAL FILES… I’m not a member there…

FYI Guys...

I think we covered this before, but on the CETME L you cannot measure bolt gap like you do on a German HK roller locking gun...

The Spanish used different length bolt heads, and different length locking pieces vs. rollers to manage recoil impulse.

Thus the only way to understand how to build the gun from mixed parts, is to measure the internal dimensions of the trunnion, and use this to combine parts to reach the desired power outcome. That is why we built a trunnion measuring jig...

THUS you cannot "measure bolt gap" to understand the power / wear on a CETME L...

Dave Bane
Owner
MarColMar Firearms LLC

No the Spanish made one size of rollers, which required the above to be true.


Dave Bane
MarColMar Firearms LLC
sales@marcolmarfirearms.com
This is the very first comment I've seen on the CETME L bolt gap and it being different than German rifles. Just seems, well, odd. This is a much more expensive and difficult way to handle head space than a simple set of different size rollers and I have to wonder why they (CETME) chose it.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 02, 2019, 09:27   #43
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
This is the very first comment I've seen on the CETME L bolt gap and it being different than German rifles. Just seems, well, odd. This is a much more expensive and difficult way to handle head space than a simple set of different size rollers and I have to wonder why they (CETME) chose it.

I too am a little bit puzzled. As wear occurs the locking recesses on the barrel will errode and bolt gap will decrease - as the locking piece pushes the rollers farther out/back into the erroded locking recesses of the barrel (unless the rollers are softer than the locking recesses and the wear occurs on the rollers).

Where do you go if your bolt gap is ZERO? I'm glad that my rifle has a bolt gap of .012" I don't ever expect to put the number of rounds through the rifle that would cause the bolt gap to decrease to the stated HK minimum (.004"). But I sure wouldn't be a happy camper if my rifle started out with a ZERO bolt gap. Prehaps its just that I am too ignorant of the engineering on the Spanish rifles to know any better.

It is also puzzling to me why the Spanish would reinvent the "rollers" - as by the time this rifle came along the HK roller lock system was well established - in fact the Spanish basically developed it with the 308 CETME. Why would the Spanish tool up to produce their own DIFFERENT roller design when rollers could have been acquired from HK for a fraction of the cost.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 02, 2019, 10:07   #44
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
I too am a little bit puzzled. As wear occurs the locking recesses on the barrel will errode and bolt gap will decrease - as the locking piece pushes the rollers farther out/back into the erroded locking recesses of the barrel (unless the rollers are softer than the locking recesses and the wear occurs on the rollers).

Where do you go if your bolt gap is ZERO? I'm glad that my rifle has a bolt gap of .012" I don't ever expect to put the number of rounds through the rifle that would cause the bolt gap to decrease to the stated HK minimum (.004"). But I sure wouldn't be a happy camper if my rifle started out with a ZERO bolt gap. Prehaps its just that I am too ignorant of the engineering on the Spanish rifles to know any better.

It is also puzzling to me why the Spanish would reinvent the "rollers" - as by the time this rifle came along the HK roller lock system was well established - in fact the Spanish basically developed it with the 308 CETME. Why would the Spanish tool up to produce their own DIFFERENT roller design when rollers could have been acquired from HK for a fraction of the cost.
I dont understand it either, I'm going to return it to get the sights centered and I'll have them look at the bolt. If I built this or bought it used I would just leave it or narrow the L piece down but its under warranty so I'll let them fix it.

The rollers are slightly different from HK, since they dont make any oversize rollers or different locking pieces not sure how the spanish accounted for wear. Unless they didnt use them enough to wear them out
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 02, 2019, 10:42   #45
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2112 View Post
I dont understand it either, I'm going to return it to get the sights centered and I'll have them look at the bolt. If I built this or bought it used I would just leave it or narrow the L piece down but its under warranty so I'll let them fix it.

The rollers are slightly different from HK, since they dont make any oversize rollers or different locking pieces not sure how the spanish accounted for wear. Unless they didnt use them enough to wear them out


Again - its perhaps attributable to MY IGNORANCE of the Spanish design - but the ONLY way this makes sense to me is if the rollers were designed to take the wear - and not the barrel extension/trunnion. But then that doesn't make any logical sense to me either - since all the Spanish needed to do was to copy the proven HK design and use HK rollers. If I were going to send my rifle back (if it had a ZERO gap) I would insist on a fix that gave me a bolt gap of .010-.012" on the returned rifle. Hope it works out for you
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 02, 2019, 11:09   #46
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
Again - its perhaps attributable to MY IGNORANCE of the Spanish design - but the ONLY way this makes sense to me is if the rollers were designed to take the wear - and not the barrel extension/trunnion. But then that doesn't make any logical sense to me either - since all the Spanish needed to do was to copy the proven HK design and use HK rollers. If I were going to send my rifle back (if it had a ZERO gap) I would insist on a fix that gave me a bolt gap of .010-.012" on the returned rifle. Hope it works out for you
We'll see what happens. Will update when it gets back.
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 05, 2019, 17:23   #47
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
Just in case anyone is interested

I had a couple of HK rollers left over from my HK days - and I decided to compare them dimensionaly to the rollers in my CETME L. This has put to rest any idea I had about using HK rollers to increase (or decrease) bolt gap.

HK rollers (standard) are 8 mm in diameter. CETME L rollers are also 8 mm

HK rollers are 8mm in height. CETME L rollers are 6 mm in height.

HK rollers have a top lip of 1.5 mm. CETME L rollers have a top lip of 1 mm

The interesting thing though is that someone with the appropriate tools and machinist skills (far beyond my mine) could conceiveably "turn down" HK rollers to CETME L dimensions - as the HK rollers are larger than the Spanish rollers. So "plus" size rollers (to increase bolt gap) could conceiveably be made out of readily available HK rollers.
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 06, 2019, 10:36   #48
kp2112
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 79763
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: TN, USA
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
Just in case anyone is interested

I had a couple of HK rollers left over from my HK days - and I decided to compare them dimensionaly to the rollers in my CETME L. This has put to rest any idea I had about using HK rollers to increase (or decrease) bolt gap.

HK rollers (standard) are 8 mm in diameter. CETME L rollers are also 8 mm

HK rollers are 8mm in height. CETME L rollers are 6 mm in height.

HK rollers have a top lip of 1.5 mm. CETME L rollers have a top lip of 1 mm

The interesting thing though is that someone with the appropriate tools and machinist skills (far beyond my mine) could conceiveably "turn down" HK rollers to CETME L dimensions - as the HK rollers are larger than the Spanish rollers. So "plus" size rollers (to increase bolt gap) could conceiveably be made out of readily available HK rollers.

Most likely CETME didnt want to run into any patent issues with HK and had to change some dimensions. I did run across this on a different forum:

Not me personally, but back in February 2015 I was provided bolt gap measurements from 12 CETME L service rifles.
The info I am posting is what was sent to me, just as received:

the bolt gap on 12 samples are-
.018,
.014,
.012,
.017,
.015,
.009,
.015,
.015,
.017,
.019,
.014,
.017

So I'm not feeling good at under .002, they have the rifle back now and I put a note in there to please double check the bolt group since I am not comfortable with the small gap. We'll see what happens..
kp2112 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 06, 2019, 11:43   #49
ServiceRifle
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 23959
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,400
I would be willing to bet that the rifle that you get back has a normal bolt gap
ServiceRifle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 06, 2019, 18:44   #50
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,342
Why would CETME be concerned with patent issues when they developed the system themselves and used in in the C rifle long before the Germans built the G3? The L rollers are a divergence from their very own system.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files