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Old March 19, 2013, 22:22   #51
G3isMe
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Originally Posted by HD Bee View Post
If you live in Texas check these guys out.
Texas Law Shield.
http://www.tlsnfa.com/pages/terms.
NFA trusts are 300.00 to 400.00
Has anyone in Texas used the aforementioned law office for a NFA trust? I am contemplating going this route and wonder if they are as good as their advertisements suggest.

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Old March 20, 2013, 09:40   #52
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Man you guys are all overboard. Key here is to get a Silencer right? In my own quest to obtained a Silencer, I also learned a lot about Trusts.

First and Foremost, I want to remind everyone that Cartmann is a Hobbyist. He is not a Lawyer, Operator, or one of the Cool Kids.

Here is Cartmann's guide to avoid NFA Trust Problems. Again.. Cartmann is not a scum sucking lawyer trying to get $600 from you, so take his advice for what it's worth (you paid nothing for it after all).

Cartmann is not a big fan of someone saying "your paperwork is not valid", without them explaining what makes it not valid or what will. Here, Cartmann will TRY to explain what he did to get his Trust to go through the ATF. In addition Cartmann will give advice on how to simplify things, and point out where you might encounter problems.

Cartmann has used this one Generic_Trust and it has worked great! It was created from Quicken Willmaker.

Cartmann has also seen the Trust created by the Trust Lawyer guys. Cartmann has a friend that went this route. It appears to also be one created from a generic model (though a whole lot longer than the one from Quicken Willmaker). This one trust will run you $600, a lot of people are willing to go this route because they are very fearful of the ATF and afraid of unwanted problems that might arise. These Trust-Lawyer guys scare you into buying a trust from them because they want $600 from you that took 3 minutes to create.

------------

1) So why do a Trust for an NFA item?
Here are a couple of reasons why Cartmann likes the Trust Route to acquire NFA items:
- You can bypass the whole local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) signoff and you do not need finger printing, this speeds up the process. Also Trust Applications seems to also go through the ATF faster since they do not have to verify the CLEO and finger print. Cartmann acquired 4 NFA items this year and each one took between 7-8 weeks between time of mailing it out, and Cartmann receiving the NFA item in his hands.
- Some local CLEOs won't even sign your Form-4, so a trust is the only option.
- Trusts are easy to amend and work with. To add items all you do is send the same Trust to the ATF with a modified Schedule-A (list of Trust Properties)

2) So why Can you get around finger printing with a Trust?
A Trust is not an individual, it's more like a Corporation. You can't fingerprint a Corporation (hence why we can get around the whole CLEO Sign-off and fingerprint thing). EricCartmann can be fingerprinted, but entity "The EricCartmann Revocable Living Trust" cannot be fingerprinted.

3) Make your Trust Revocable, even state that in the Title. "The EricCartmann Revocable Living Trust"
NFA Trusts should always be Amendable and Revocable, so you should clearly state this in the Trust. Quicken Willmaker and all the models of Revocable Trust I have seen on the web all clearly state this.

4) Grantor/Settlor
The Grantor (also called Settlor) is the person who wrote up the trust and the only person/persons who can amend the trust. To simplify things I would make you and only you the Grantor of the Trust.

5) Trustees
Trustees are the people on your Trust that have ownership in your Trust Property (In this case the NFA items you have in your Schedule-A). Since we are getting around the whole fingerprinting thing, unlike a "Regular" trust where you can put as many trustees as you want, I would really limit the trustee to only yourself.. or at most you and your wife and that's it. I would not put any friends or other relatives as a trustee. Whatever Trustee you decide to put down, make sure they do not have any felonies are any criminal offense for that matter, and over 21 years old. Here Cartmann only has himself as a Trustee because he wanted to simplify things and play it safe. If you are the only Trustee, you should know if you are over 21 or have a felony or not. If you do not know, just check your Drivers License for your age, and go to the local PD to check to see if you have any criminal record ;-)

6) Successor-Trustee and Alternate-successor-trustee
Clearly state who these individuals are. To simplify things, Cartmann only put down one individual for successor-trustee and one alternate-successor-trustee. Also the people Cartmann did put down, he made sure these individual are over 21, and made sure that they did not have any felonies or any other problems with the laws.

7) Death of Grantor/Settlor
State that the trust become "Irrevocable" and ends at the time of your death. This way all property properly transfer to the Successor Trustee(s) and the Trust ends at the time of you death (or if you become Incapacitated) .

8 ) Incapacity of Grantor
Make sure you have a list of people to determine when you have become "Incapacitated". These people should not be the trustee or alternate-trustee just in case of alterior motives ;-)

9) Trust Laws varies from State to State
Make sure you know the trust laws in your state and how to notarize it. Just because one trust is good in one state does not mean it is good in another. Nevada is a Trust state, so as long as it is properly notarized you should be good to go.

10) Properly Witnessing of Trust
Each state has a different set of laws on how they consider a trust to be properly witnessed. In Nevada you only need to have it notarized. In Louisiana, you need 2 witnesses as well as it being notarized.

11) Access to NFA items.
According to the ATF, no one must have access to your NFA items. What does this mean? Cartmann does not know exactly, but the way Cartmann sees it, if he has a safe and only Cartmann knows the combo of the Safe, then that pretty much covers this area.

12) Funding a trust
A trust should be funded to be legitimate. There has to be a reason why you set that trust up in the first place, and that reason is to set up the proper transfer of certain property. For your first NFA item, your Schedule-A (list of trust properties) should at the very least have something on it besides the NFA item(s) you plan to purchase. I would set up a bank savings account under the name "The EricCartman Revocable Living Trust" and add it in your Schedule A because all Entities such as this trust should have a bank account in addition to other trust properties.

13) Making payment to ATF
When paying the $200 Tax Stamp, I would show the money order came from "The EricCartmann Revocable Living Trust" and not just "EricCartmann". A postal money order works, but make sure it came from the Trust and not the individual. This goes with all Form-4 stuff, the Trust-Entity ("The EricCartmann Revocable Living Trust") and not the individual (EricCartmann) is what should be stated.

14) Schedule-A should have area for a Notary
In your Schedule-A I would add a place for a signature and Notary. This is because you will be updating the Schedule A more in the future and the only real way to tell what is the most up to date Schedule A is by date and notary.

15) Moving to another State.
When moving to another state, make sure you properly amend the trust to state the new State.
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Old March 26, 2013, 22:27   #53
OREGON FAL'ER
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Another thing to think about is to find a good friend who has paid an attorney for an NFA trust, copy it word for word changing the names only. It takes quite a bit of time to type out 15 to 20 pages but hell we're talking about saving $600 dollars of fiat. Besides what you get is an attorney drafted Trust but in your name. It at least sounds good conceptually.
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Old June 22, 2013, 02:38   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OREGON FAL'ER View Post
Another thing to think about is to find a good friend who has paid an attorney for an NFA trust, copy it word for word changing the names only. It takes quite a bit of time to type out 15 to 20 pages but hell we're talking about saving $600 dollars of fiat. Besides what you get is an attorney drafted Trust but in your name. It at least sounds good conceptually.
My trust is copy righted....
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Old September 01, 2013, 15:21   #55
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Hey, gunsmoke, how is all that getting a trust from a reputable lawyer working out for you?
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Old September 06, 2013, 19:37   #56
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http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/02...posal-atf-41p/
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Old September 07, 2013, 07:22   #57
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'using a trust or other fictitious legal entity'

Read the blog, first. Act in haste and repent at your leisure. That is all I have to say.
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Old September 13, 2013, 00:32   #58
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My trust cost $200 from a very knowledgeable, NFA trust attorney. And he answers questions down the road which a downloaded program can't do.

Also learned to make sure that all the pages are numbered sequentially. My app was returned ladt week because it was missing page 13 of 14, and page 14 of 14. A phone call to the ATF found that all the pages were labeled __ of 14. There were 14 pages, but the schedule A and Schedule B pages weren't numbered. They were there, but because they weren't numbered they are no good.

The new pages were sent in today and I haven't lost my place in line, so hopefully it won't be too much longer.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the new executive orders re: NFA items and having the principal members of a trust printed and run through a background check.

Dan
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Old October 30, 2013, 00:35   #59
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There is a way to directly let the BATFE know how you feel about the proposed changes to owning NFA items via legal entities.

Here is the link to the proposed regulation change: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2013-0001-0001

I own several NFA items via trust and these new changes would make an already extensive and long process even more difficult, if not impossible (due to the CLEO not signing your form even if NFA is legal in your state). Not to mention the intrusiveness of having all persons listed in the trust or corporation submit photographs and fingerprints. This is not required for the individual setting up the trust or corporation, and has nothing to do with investigating the legality of that individual.

There are already numerous criminal databases this individual is queried under and I personally know they are extensive, though not conclusive.
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Old January 04, 2016, 04:00   #60
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definitions and differences - types and uses of trusts (including NFA trusts)

I’m going to hopefully clear up a few things with some definitions and discussion concerning the ‘types’ of trusts. After reading this thread some posters are using terms they seem not to understand.
One, most NFA trusts are what are called ‘inter vivos’ trusts – that is they are constructed today by a Grantor who names Trustees that will manage the assets in the trust.
Two, the Grantor can change the trust at will, adding and deleting Trustees and putting in and taking out assets at will. This is true as long as the Grantor is still alive.
Three, some trusts are not ‘inter vivos’ trusts and the Grantor puts assets in them in a will and creates the management system for managing and distributing those assets and the income from them using the rules he creates before he dies and mandating (under state law) how the Trustees will manage the assets and distribute the funds. This one is the typical bank-managed trust for minor children of parents who die early or who the parents consider ‘spendthrifts’ and want them to have the assets of the trust in chunks over a period of eyars.
Four, Trusts are principally set up for distribution of the Grantor’s assets after the Grantor is deceased. In the NFA trust the creation of Trustees is more important or of equal as importance to the final disposition of NFA items after the death of the Grantor.
Five, the Trustees, as named by the Grantor, can manage and manipulate the assets of the trust as long as they remain Trustees. This is a key area where trust law and the NFA MUST BE MELDED TOGETHER. If a Trustee (named by a Grantor) becomes ineligible to own an NFA item there must be a provision to immediately disqualify and remove that person as a Trustee. If this is not done, the Trustee could be in violation of the NFA as well as could the trust itself by placing an NFA item in the hands of an ineligible person.
Six, the NFA or any trust, creates a vehicle without major time limitations for the sale and distribution of assets (including NFA items). Thus, individual Trustees could be given an item under the trust rules or by the Grantor himself (if the Grantor is still alive). Or they could be left in the trust and sold and the money generated kept in the trust or distributed according to the Grantor’s rules and desires.
Seven: states vary in their rules on who can create trusts and how they are registered, if at all. There are also rules of construction in each state that must be observe and which state how Trustees are named and how Trustees become ‘disabled’ and how their ‘disabilities’ are reversed.
Eight: Some trusts, including NFA trusts, can be irrevocable trusts which after created remove the assets from the Grantor’s control enough so they are no longer assets of the Grantor for purposes of satisfying judgments or for estate tax or inheritance tax purposes. Note – even though the Grantor may give up control of the assets to the trust and to the management of the Trustees, the Trustees, in their management wisdom, could still sell a trust asset and bestow the funds on the Grantor even though the Grantor has no actual ‘right’ to the funds. There are complicated and very technical rules on the taxation of asset sales (or profits from them) that need to be observed for estate tax purposes. The control the Grantor retains is highly regulated and technical to create this type of irrevocability.
I hope this little summary has not confused everyone but I did want to add some term definitions that might clarify that the NFA trust can be used for different things such as asset distribution at death; transferring assets to others during life; preventing immediate sale requirements for NFA items on the form 4 owner’s death; allowing other persons (qualified Trustees) to be in possession of NFA items; and for asset preservation via irrevocability.

DD, Esq. Lic. in KY, TX and NM

Last edited by DaninNM; January 04, 2016 at 04:02. Reason: readability
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Old February 16, 2016, 21:41   #61
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Been thinking about an NFA Trust as about to drop the dime on new toy. Only issue is been told if put current items owned into Trust would have to pay transfer fee again. Guy know just did a trust, put item and all future into but previous items keeping in his name to keep from paying ahain. As digging around for info on such seen some folks put NFA stuff into their LLC's and S Corporations.

I have S Corp and would not need to pay someone to set up Trust. Wife is officer of corporation as all heirs. My S Corp owns only the high risk business equipment. I own business, tools, equipment and vehicles personally and lease to corporation. Thus if business has accident and sued, until break corporate veil it only owns the equipment that's likely to be cause of a lawsuit.

The local "go-to" lawyer both my LGS's and most local toy collectors use him and he charges a one time $500 fee then no charge to add items as need in future. Last thing I need is more government paperwork so if running items through my S Corp is no big deal, it will have to continue after my passing and with wife/heirs as officers then transition is already sitting on go to be relatively easy with lawyer already prepared. Anyone around here used their existing corporations for NFA? Seems almost like a much more elegant solution to me and much more inexpensive. Have not checked with tax attorney but may make tax deductible. Company does have three firearms that were purchased on books for protection of property and quite a bit of equipment that crosses over into my manufacturing scheme along with two vaults kept at work. Just like ham radio tower as has antenna for our business band radios. A few perks as hard as dot gov sticks me every day a few little perks are well deserved.
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Old February 18, 2016, 15:00   #62
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My one suggestion is to not use your existing s-corp. That exists for the purpose of sheltering you from liability for your high risk business related equipment/activities. Create a new, separate legal entity (LLC or S-Corp) solely for the NFA trust.

The benefit of creating multiple artificial entities to house various assets is to protect them from grubby hands trying to take whatever they can vis-a-vis lawsuit related to negligent/harmful activity contained within a specific artificial entity. Courts have been known to "pierce the liability shields" when they feel a rich person has purposefully done that in a way as to deprive a bonafide plaintiff from acquiring their duly awarded judgment.

Those are referred to as "shell corporations". They barely have any assets, but are the ones thru which business is done so they are the named defendant in a lawsuit. For instance, if a shell corp purposefully never holds more than 50k and has no tangible assets to liquidate, and a million dollar judgment is entered against it, if the court finds the principle standing behind the shell corp has four other artificial entities that own everything, its likely to pierce those veils to get at sufficient sums of money to satisfy the judgment.

BUT at least youve put up the multiple barriers, which forces the argument rather than leaves stuff you own that is unrelated to your business, and/or your nfa trust, vulnerable to attachment. AND, imho, its just unwise to mix business and nfa stuff period...unless NFA stuff is your business. Flipping the script, you could lose your business if anything untoward ever happened with your NFA inventory.
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