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Old July 01, 2019, 00:37   #1
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Incorporating UK Lightening cuts on an IMBEL Type 3.

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Old July 01, 2019, 05:21   #2
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Very cool, I'll post some pics of the "Finished product" when I get home from work in a few hours. As always I am very pleased with your work,you Sir are an Artist!!!

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

All I have to do now is put a set of Marynal hand guards on it to make it right.
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Old July 01, 2019, 06:31   #3
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Here is but one [QPQ nitrided] example:

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Old July 01, 2019, 08:11   #4
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Just watched the whole video and I’m very impressed with the results. I have a couple of Century IMBEL receivers heading your way Mark.
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Old July 01, 2019, 09:53   #5
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T Mark,
A masterful work of determination, will and execution.
Well done Gunplumber !

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Old July 01, 2019, 10:05   #6
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Looks great. I'd like to have a type 1 or even type 2 metric made from an imbel this way. Any chance of getting "authentic" Imbel markings lasered on a modded receiver so no commercial markings remain externally?
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Old July 01, 2019, 12:02   #7
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Looks great. I'd like to have a type 1 or even type 2 metric made from an imbel this way. Any chance of getting "authentic" Imbel markings lasered on a modded receiver so no commercial markings remain externally?
I can wipe everything except the serial number

I can't find cutters to do the radius on the lighteing cut and I can't do the trapezoidal mag well (yet)



Closest I've come is to engrave the cutout outline.
But you can see the lightening cuts are square like the L1A1, not rounded or beveled internal corner.
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Old July 01, 2019, 12:24   #8
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Thanks for posting that behind-the-scenes. Really neat to see how it all comes together.
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Old July 01, 2019, 19:21   #9
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That's awesome! When are you going to start cranking out full receivers? 🤔


Also could you convert a metric magwell to an inch one?
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Old July 01, 2019, 19:48   #10
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you can use one of these to get the correct cut profile

just change the inserts to the profile you need. I have one thats the correct radius set up to to Aussie cuts.
For the bit where you use your hands to turn the receiver you can use a vertical rotary table

with a holding jig that fits into the carrier rails (bit more detailed than that)
for the threaded portion of the receiver make a threaded insert from a barrel stub drilled and reamed to 3/4" . make a spigot from 1" stock that has a reduced diameter of 3/4" that fits into the threaded insert. make parallel flats on the 1" piece for easier clamping in your vise and now you can spit roast the receiver.
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Old July 01, 2019, 20:26   #11
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I am amazed at the detail the Imbel you did lightning cuts on for me.
Top notch!
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Old July 04, 2019, 13:11   #12
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I didn't even think of having it engraved.
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Old July 04, 2019, 13:23   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionYobbo View Post
you can use one of these to get the correct cut profile just change the inserts to the profile you need. I have one thats the correct radius set up to to Aussie cuts.
Can you e-mail me the code for the insert profile and cutter type? I'd like to try that and I really like the removable inserts - it's all I use on the lathe.
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Old July 04, 2019, 17:02   #14
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Sadly, you can't do this to early CAI Sporters....
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Old July 04, 2019, 18:57   #15
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Sadly, you can't do this to early CAI Sporters....

The Argentine ones, no, because of the serial number location. But I can make them into Argentine marked type 3s. Except now I can do the crest too.



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Old July 05, 2019, 01:08   #16
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The Argentine ones, no, because of the serial number location. But I can make them into Argentine marked type 3s. Except now I can do the crest too.



Oh SNAP!
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Old July 05, 2019, 02:17   #17
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With all the machining you are doing how far off are you from being able to complete an 80% receiver?
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Old July 05, 2019, 09:08   #18
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With all the machining you are doing how far off are you from being able to complete an 80% receiver?
Zero interest. That's a whole lot different than removing a small amount of material for cosmetics, from a receiver that started out dimensionally sound.
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Old July 05, 2019, 11:10   #19
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Nice work.

Interested in getting a Type 3 milled into a type 2, if possible.
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Old July 05, 2019, 11:22   #20
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Nice work.

Interested in getting a Type 3 milled into a type 2, if possible.
Even when I get the radius correct for a type 1 or aussie, there is the issue of the mag well cut

The trapezoidal mag well cut is going to require repositioning the vise 3 times. Or I'm going to need to get a rotational table. Or come up with other type of fixture. I hate realigning the vise. Takes a lot of time to get it to .001" true over 3'.

The serial number is here on most IMBELs. Now if I can get the laser to exactly match the serial number size and font, I think I can burn it .020 deeper, then I can machine .012 off. This will leave the serial number .008" deep (deeper than the dot matrix is now) and at no time was it altered, obliterated, defaced, removed, etc.; which is prohibited.
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Old July 05, 2019, 11:27   #21
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Unhappy

It's a Type 3 Coonan, not an IMBEL. I know how you love those. It's an early type.
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Old July 05, 2019, 13:22   #22
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Even when I get the radius correct for a type 1 or aussie, there is the issue of the mag well cut

The trapezoidal mag well cut is going to require repositioning the vise 3 times. Or I'm going to need to get a rotational table. Or come up with other type of fixture. I hate realigning the vise. Takes a lot of time to get it to .001" true over 3'.

The serial number is here on most IMBELs. Now if I can get the laser to exactly match the serial number size and font, I think I can burn it .020 deeper, then I can machine .012 off. This will leave the serial number .008" deep (deeper than the dot matrix is now) and at no time was it altered, obliterated, defaced, removed, etc.; which is prohibited.
Would not cutting the serial number deeper be considered altering the serial number by the BATFE??
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Old July 05, 2019, 14:21   #23
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Would not cutting the serial number deeper be considered altering the serial number by the BATFE??
Altering it from what to what?
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Old July 05, 2019, 14:25   #24
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It's a Type 3 Coonan, not an IMBEL. I know how you love those. It's an early type.
If it's a "small font" the serial number will be clear of lightening cut.
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Old July 05, 2019, 14:30   #25
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If it's a "small font" the serial number will be clear of lightening cut.
It is. The # is above the pistol grip on the right side.

I'd rather have it milled into a Type II than buy a new one, honestly.
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Old July 05, 2019, 17:09   #26
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Altering it from what to what?
The Bureau has taken various stands on this practice, not sure what current policy is these days

In the past there have been restoration shops that were busted over deepening SNs
Nasty case of it in the 90s with an outfit that specialized in Colt SAA rebuilds
the worst of it was not only was the shop pinched the guns themselves were tracked and seized as contraband

thing is they have allowed other shops to do it where the SN is heavily worn

It would be a wonderful addition to your services but I'd be damn certain to obtain a clearance letter from the Firearms Technology branch first
not at all trying to be a dick but ATFE gets real goofy over SNs
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Old July 06, 2019, 00:00   #27
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The Bureau has taken various stands on this practice, not sure what current policy is these days

In the past there have been restoration shops that were busted over deepening SNs
Nasty case of it in the 90s with an outfit that specialized in Colt SAA rebuilds
the worst of it was not only was the shop pinched the guns themselves were tracked and seized as contraband

thing is they have allowed other shops to do it where the SN is heavily worn

It would be a wonderful addition to your services but I'd be damn certain to obtain a clearance letter from the Firearms Technology branch first
not at all trying to be a dick but ATFE gets real goofy over SNs
Interesting, I've not seen any reference to the case(s) you describe.

What I have noted in my refinishing of certain handguns (BHPs and Beretta 92s in particular), a serial number on the front strap, combined with an avid shooter who wears a wedding ring, is that the serial number becomes excessively worn - to the point where it's only readable under magnified photography and enhanced photographic color/hue/contrast editing. I have advised several department's firearm examiners on the subject and been wowed by their equipment. I have also been a lecturer at the national firearms and tool mark examiner's conference. All I can say is - there is little one can do to try to fudge a serial number that won't be painfully obvious at 10,000x magnification.

One can also see examples of early Aussie and UK L1A1s where the charge handle rubs on the serial number and it is restamped below. Perhaps one reason Australia moved the serial number to the R side under the e-port.

It seems to me that enhancing the legibility of the serial number is a positive contribution to the purpose of having a serial number.

There was a time (When Ed Ownes was chief of tech branch) that repositioning a serial number, for example - to checker the front strap - was commonly approved. Now it seems to be "no, nyet, nein!".

But I fail to see how deepening a faint serial number violates 18 USC 922 or 27 CFR 478
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Old July 06, 2019, 00:43   #28
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Interesting, I've not seen any reference to the case(s) you describe.

What I have noted in my refinishing of certain handguns (BHPs and Beretta 92s in particular), a serial number on the front strap, combined with an avid shooter who wears a wedding ring, is that the serial number becomes excessively worn - to the point where it's only readable under magnified photography and enhanced photographic color/hue/contrast editing. I have advised several department's firearm examiners on the subject and been wowed by their equipment. I have also been a lecturer at the national firearms and tool mark examiner's conference. All I can say is - there is little one can do to try to fudge a serial number that won't be painfully obvious at 10,000x magnification.

One can also see examples of early Aussie and UK L1A1s where the charge handle rubs on the serial number and it is restamped below. Perhaps one reason Australia moved the serial number to the R side under the e-port.

It seems to me that enhancing the legibility of the serial number is a positive contribution to the purpose of having a serial number.

There was a time (When Ed Ownes was chief of tech branch) that repositioning a serial number, for example - to checker the front strap - was commonly approved. Now it seems to be "no, nyet, nein!".

But I fail to see how deepening a faint serial number violates 18 USC 922 or 27 CFR 478
Owens was a good guy, Bartlett who replaced him was a piece of shit who reversed many of Ed's policies

I am in total agreement enhancing legibility should be paramount however as Bartlett read the GCA deepening an existing SN was a clear alteration which is what led to the problems with resto shops

perhaps policy has or can be changed

remember what happened with the electro penciled Makarovs ?
the Bureau made a ruling you couldn't really refinish them, at least not with a coating as it could "alter" the SN

for years retouching serials was just part of high end restorations
Bartlett changed that in the late 90s
same guy who reversed Owens on Bob Stewart's .50 kits being non regulated and decreed PPSh trunnions were a MG "receiver" in and of themselves among a number of other insanities

I'd check, certainly give it a shot
I just don't want anyone on the wrong side of this
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Old July 06, 2019, 12:48   #29
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excellent work mark.
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Old July 06, 2019, 12:59   #30
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Great work Mark! Many of us have learned so much from you.
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Old July 06, 2019, 14:59   #31
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Haven't seen it asked, might be of benefit to someone else besides me. Can assembled rifles be engraved with the L1A1 markings? Or will the receiver need to be bare?
I happen to have one of your L1A1 cut IMBELs done before you worked with markings. Excellent work, markings would be icing on the cake. But I'm hesitant to disassemble the rifle to have it done.
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Old July 06, 2019, 16:14   #32
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I went ahead and did the mag well cuts and made two of them Indian 1A1 pattern.

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Old July 06, 2019, 16:19   #33
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Haven't seen it asked, might be of benefit to someone else besides me. Can assembled rifles be engraved with the L1A1 markings?
Yes, I can't do the CAI - IMBEL inside the mag well with the barrel attached, but that's not required. It's just something I do. There is door on the side of the engraver for barrels to stick out - just have to flip the markings upside down - but it's not tall enough to focus on the far side of a receiver with the barrel still on.

But - engraving by itself, I'd need $250 for the three hours it takes round trip. For those part of a complete build, when I can incorporate it with my own stuff and travel time, it's $100 - $125. And while you can deal with Rick directly, he does not have the fixtures or the technical knowledge to be certain what markings go where.
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Old July 06, 2019, 16:34   #34
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Oh, and a boring generic IMBEL type 3 with CAI dot matrix wiped and redone with IMBEL military markings.

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Old July 06, 2019, 19:30   #35
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If the latest DSA type 3 receivers are dimensionally correct, would they be a candidate for the Brit pattern cuts?
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Old July 07, 2019, 09:37   #36
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If the latest DSA type 3 receivers are dimensionally correct, would they be a candidate for the Brit pattern cuts?
I'd have to try one - machining may be a lot harder than the IMBEL
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Old July 08, 2019, 15:21   #37
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Oh, and a boring generic IMBEL type 3 with CAI dot matrix wiped and redone with IMBEL military markings.

Not boring at all, it looks great
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It is a lady-lookin' foreign made collection of sexy Belgian curves that intimidates the shit out of today's Pajama-boy males.
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Old July 22, 2019, 00:13   #38
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I'd have to try one - machining may be a lot harder than the IMBEL
I just ordered a type 3 from DSA. I'll gladly offer it up as a guinea pig...
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Old July 22, 2019, 06:30   #39
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I just ordered a type 3 from DSA. I'll gladly offer it up as a guinea pig...
IO can try, but really - the IMBEL is hardened only in certain spots, the mag catch notch being one of them. The DSA is hardened throughout . I may not be able to.
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Old July 22, 2019, 09:02   #40
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I can wipe everything except the serial number

I can't find cutters to do the radius on the lighteing cut and I can't do the trapezoidal mag well (yet)

Closest I've come is to engrave the cutout outline.
But you can see the lightening cuts are square like the L1A1, not rounded or beveled internal corner.
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If you can provide even a rough drawing of what you want they will make any cutter you could want. Have some jobs use custom tooling they made me and none of my competition can duplicate it so have the clients in a headlock. I usually send them a CAD drawing of profile I want, order two in case break a custom bit in middle of a job and seldom ever need the spare but would hate to have big job clamped in my CNC router tying up the shop while wait for them to make me another cutter.

They are great about making suggestions to help achieve your goal. If my machinist had not died on me likely would have kept that information in my pocket but the good of the FAL community is more important than not sharing information on where you can get cutters made as I have no desire to do it myself.
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Old July 22, 2019, 09:45   #41
pistolero1911
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