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Old October 12, 2018, 23:13   #1
davesrb
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AR pistols in 300 BO

So I got the chance to shoot a couple of sweet little AR pistols in 300 blackout. A Sig Rattler and a CMMG Banshee. They were both a lot of fun and ran great suppressed or not. I was also impressed how accurate they both were from 50 to 150 yards. I enjoyed shooting them enough that I think I might need one

I have never really been an AR guy. I have a couple and shoot them fairly regularly,I've assembled a few as well, but I always prefer FAL's and my PS90's. If I want to go this route, are these pretty straight forward to build, or should I pony up the $ and get a "name brand"?

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Old October 13, 2018, 03:59   #2
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very easy to build, parts are abundant and cheap now...never seen a better time to buy or build AR stuff. you can pony up and buy a name brand or build your own, i just built like 4 5.56 "pistols" with PSA kits and Anderson receivers(although i prefer aero precision). PSA has some great sales and i have had pretty good luck with them lately.-one gas block off center on an upper but that was an east fix
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Old October 13, 2018, 08:45   #3
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The SIG Rattler is the only 300 BO I would own but can't bring myself to pony up over $2,000 for it. Building similar which IA have done is expensive. A $250 piston kit, $225 to $325 for short buffer system from Battle Arms Development or Deadfoot Arms, $125 to $250 for similar pistol brace plus other parts. The two AR pistols I have that most resemble the Rattler were built in 6.8 and have over $1,500 in parts building my own.

If build on a KAC Shockwave pistol kit it saves $500 but adds eight inches or more to back end of build. A 2.5" buffer system is expensive and why SIG only offers the Rattler in 300 BO. I wanted real horsepower so used an 8.5" Bison and pair of 10.5" Noveske 6.8 spc II barrels. Throw in the 4.5" Battle Arms Development buffer kit and a SIG brace is $350 or Deadfoot 2.5" buffer and their folding stock is a $500 option. Use their SIG style brace and costs more. A SIG Rattler will spoil a man but I tried everything possible and can not duplicate it accurately for under $1,500. Can build an AR pistol in a pistol cartridge dirt cheap and can build a DI gun on KAC reasonable but short buffer with piston upper and it's going to sting the wallet.

SIG Rattler:



Smallest I could build for just over $1,500 and still bigger than the SIG:



Smallest I could build for under $1,500:



Mine are in a much harder hitting cartridge than 300 BO but if shooting subsonic it doesn't matter. Soon as my Form 1 and Form 4 comes in will be able to show a tiny 458 SOCOM which hits lIke a train subsonic with 500 grain soft points.
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Old October 13, 2018, 09:08   #4
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I built a 300 integrally suppressed upper. Only difference between 300 blackout and 223 is the barrel. And gas port diameter, and barrel threading.

To get it to run some of my handloads, which were worked up to use very fast burning pistol powders, I did have to use a taccom 1 oz buffer and lightweight spring, but again, this was for some specialized handloads worked up for the best suppression while mainting 1000+ fps for better expansion with 194 gr Lehigh bullets for HD.

You normally wouldn't have to go through all that trouble for shooting off the shelf bullets and with more common powders.

If you want to shoot supers and subs, many people will install an adjustable gas block to turn down the gas some while shooting supers. But since I only shoot suppressed subs, I just used a normal gas block.

If you shoot suppressed, I recommend a 10.5" barrel. This gives a couple more inches for the powder to fully burn out before entering the suppressor, making it a little more quiet. Not to give it any more or less velocity. Speaking strictly about powder burn and I guess dwell time if using a carbine length gas port placement, or even a pistol length gas port.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N8LCdHKyJU
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Old October 13, 2018, 09:44   #5
Uriah Lee
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300 blackout is at it's best as a pistol or sbr. Small cases filled with pistol powders burn effectively in short barrels. ARs are easy as LEGO blocks to assemble into a fine shooter by following a few guide lines. Stay with a pistol length gas system to assure reliable function in either super or sub sonic modes. Barrel twist should be one in seven twist, though some have success with an eight twist barrel. Long subsonic bullets need a fast rate to stabilize properly. Baffle strikes can be an issue with slower rates, so seven it is. Adjustable gas blocks can fine tune the system, but I have had great success with and without. Other than those issues, it should be basic AR building techniques. Proper barrel torque specs, truing face of upper receiver that accepts barrel, and so forth.

But beware. So many optional accessories out there available for the AR make it one of the toys that never seem to get finished. Easy to build and easier to modify can turn out to be worse than FALs. Loads of fun to shoot and tinker with.

I have just finished building a 300 blk clone of my XM-177 in 5.56. Hard to tell them apart except by way of the slots on the home brew barrel moderator. I used an end mill to machine the slots on mine. Shoots fine out of a 12 inch barrel. Had a bit of an issue on the first outing. First shot on target but action didn't cycle. Clear spent round and chamber next round. Pull trigger and bang. Saw what appeared to be a large bird fly by. Turned out to be the upper hand guard flying away. Upon inspection it became apparent that some dumbass forgot to install the gas tube. Shouldn't have put the guards on till after the tube arrived in the mail. Correction made. All is well once again. The twins can never play together, though. The 300 blk will chamber in a 5.56 rifle and will positively ruin your day if fired. It's just too easy to mix mags and ammo even though my mags are caliber marked for the blk rifle. Gas tube was only embarrassing and easily rectified. A KABOOM can be life altering or even ending. Don't do it!!!
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Old October 13, 2018, 10:05   #6
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Huey. Where do you get all those wonderful toys? Seeing your thumper has me pining again for another 458 build. Have a pistol lower fitted with a Maxim Defense collapsing stock that uses the Jp abbreviated recoil buffer. Do you think that it would handle the SOCOM round effectively?
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Old October 13, 2018, 16:16   #7
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The Battle Arms Development 4.25" and the 2.5" Deadfoot Arms are only rated for 300 BO, 223 and 5.56 NATO. I am running both on 6.8 spc II loaded hot but have a few personal tricks such as M16 Clinic polymer buffer pads to reduce bolt on buffer battering. Am running hot handloads at the top of the charts and no signs of trouble. This new Battle Arms buffer/brace combo is only 4.75" OAL from rear of receiver and going to use it on a 458 SOCOM build but will only be running the pistol subsonic. No way would I subject a 5.56 rated part that costs $500 to full power 458 SOCOM.





Built three 6.8's with twist rates for subsonic pills but didn't like being limited to 200 grains +/-. Same with 300 BO, only so much bullet can launch but a 350 to 550 grain 458 projectile at 1050 fps should do the job on any beast I plan to encounter and from the beating they are taking with suppressed full power 6.8 believe both buffers will survive 458 subsonic enough to bet a $500 bill on it.

If I could get a Rattler in 6.8 would pop $2,500 without whining. But for 300 BO will pass on the toy.
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Old October 13, 2018, 16:32   #8
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Here's this device for your large caliber AR's.

https://ar15discounts.com/products/a...eid=5675d95aee


Mark
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Old October 13, 2018, 16:47   #9
Uriah Lee
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After reading your post, I think it is wise to not subject non standard part designed for 5.56 and 300 blk rounds to a heavy hitter like a 458 SOCOM round. The jump from 5.56 to 300 blk is nothing like the leap to 458. Could turn out to be an expensive move. And a face full of broken parts is less than appealing too.
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Old October 13, 2018, 16:50   #10
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Originally Posted by oleblu72 View Post
Here's this device for your large caliber AR's.

https://ar15discounts.com/products/a...eid=5675d95aee


Mark
Looks to be on the order of JP's recoil system. Have any experience with this unit?
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Old October 13, 2018, 17:08   #11
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post
a 350 to 550 grain 458 projectile at 1050 fps should do the job on any beast I plan to encounter and from the beating they are taking with suppressed full power 6.8 believe both buffers will survive 458 subsonic enough to bet a $500 bill on it.
Ya know, a good 12 gauge slug travels up to around 1350 fps, and is right around 500 grains.

Just sayin'
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Old October 13, 2018, 17:38   #12
Uriah Lee
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Ya know, a good 12 gauge slug travels up to around 1350 fps, and is right around 500 grains.

Just sayin'
Yer so right about that. But even the best slugs are not nearly as accurate as a 458 SOCOM or 450 Busshie. A lot easier to suppress too.
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Old October 13, 2018, 20:27   #13
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No disagreement from me there.
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Old October 13, 2018, 21:30   #14
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Palmetto complete uppers on any AR lower pistol configured receiver and you're under $500 all in for a great shooting sub compact rifle. 8"-ish barrel is agreed to be the best length barrel for .300BO for complete powder burn and maximum accuracy for the cartridge.

I have multiple Black Outs and rounds that are truly SUBSONIC in 8" barrel length are mostly supersonic in 16" barrels. (or so close the acoustic signature is no different to the ear then supersonic rounds) They behave and SOUND (suppressed and unsupressed) like two TOTALLY different cartridges. Stick with a 8"-ish barrel and you will be REALLY HAPPY with all the things the gun will do for you.

The part most people miss is that you really DON'T need an adjustable gas block with .300BO. I guess if you're a type A personality and want to micro manage your rifles gas, but on a PISTOL length gas block it ISN't needed. This is a internet MYTH (that has taken root and persisted) from the first .300BO with rifle and carbine length gas blocks. The pistol length gas ports solved this whole issue. REGARDLESS of barrel length in .300BO get pistol length gas and you will never have an issue Super or Sub , suppressed or not.

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Old October 13, 2018, 21:41   #15
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Ya know, a good 12 gauge slug travels up to around 1350 fps, and is right around 500 grains.

Just sayin'
Amen brother.

50 yards. Open sights. $170 Chinese pump gun laid over ammo can. 5 shots.
(.30 cal holes also in target for comparison)




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Old October 13, 2018, 23:01   #16
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Originally Posted by Uriah Lee View Post
After reading your post, I think it is wise to not subject non standard part designed for 5.56 and 300 blk rounds to a heavy hitter like a 458 SOCOM round. The jump from 5.56 to 300 blk is nothing like the leap to 458. Could turn out to be an expensive move. And a face full of broken parts is less than appealing too.
And I won't run full power 458 socom but looK at chamber pressure figures with 458 SOCOM being way under the others especially subsonic and I have no use for supersonic 458 SOCOM as 6.8 or others do a better job with more rounds. These are dedicated subsonic only builds and receivers will be engraved "for subsonic use only".

As to adjustable gas on 300 BO, agree it's wasted money. Not a huge enough pressure difference between full power and subsonic to worry about. Have access to a Rattler and shoot it a lot. Can on, can off, subsonic, supersonic in any combination there are no issues of concern with pressure signs on cases, YMMV.

Am running two 458 SOCOM test rifles with KAC Shockwave pistol kits right now and when get my parts and forms all in for my final builds should have all worked out for safe subsonic operation using piston uppers and short buffers. Have torn down, reconfivured, tried different buffers and tested to see how soft can make a 458 sub lobber run know it can be done small, accurate, safe and super quiet. And I probably have more variety of 12 gauge slugs on the planet but whisper quiet suppressed they will never be.
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Old October 14, 2018, 15:28   #17
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I built a 300 integrally suppressed upper.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N8LCdHKyJU


I really like the look , and the stock set is something i will be looking into . Well done ''John A''
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Old October 14, 2018, 19:23   #18
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I really like the look , and the stock set is something i will be looking into . Well done ''John A''
The nearest thing you'll find to that stock now Fly is finding a used Magpul M93. Or Ergo bought the overall makeup with a slight redesign called the F93.

Let me tell you a little story about that one that is on the gun that you may like to hear.

It is the very first ever magpul stock sold on the commercial market.

The morning after the AWB ended, I was on the phone calling magpul to buy it because I was celebrating that as a civilian that I could now buy one so I treated myself and that was it.

This particular stock was one of the stocks that had been submitted to SOPMOD for T&E for our special forces as indicated by the Detachment One designation. Not one like it, but one of the stocks that was physically submitted.

It came complete with the spray painted number on top of the buffer tube, which is mostly worn away these days from being used and my beard rubbing against it.

Still have the paperwork in my binder.


Last edited by John A; October 14, 2018 at 19:36.
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Old October 15, 2018, 13:00   #19
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Great story ''John A'' ,
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Old October 15, 2018, 13:53   #20
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Thanks for the information guys. I'll look into what I can build, but honestly I might just buy a Sig and a can and call it a day....Kind of afraid to start building and get addicted to another rifle...
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Old October 15, 2018, 23:03   #21
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Thanks for the information guys. I'll look into what I can build, but honestly I might just buy a Sig and a can and call it a day....Kind of afraid to start building and get addicted to another rifle...
If dropping the cash on a Rattler doesn't cause you to miss any meals I would go that way. If I could bring myself to buying a 300 BO would already own a Rattler. It's the only 300 BO that has ever really tempted me and if find a clean used one at fair price never can tell what I might do.
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Old October 16, 2018, 11:14   #22
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That Rattler is an appealing piece of kit. Reminds me a lot of Sig's MPX. The down side of buying a Rattler over rolling your own is missing out on the satisfaction of creating something yourself. Tweaking, tuning, experimenting, and a few headaches now and then are all part of this great hobby.

With that said, I still would never rule out buying one. I have the MPX already and it is a good performer that offers great flexibility in design. Barrel changes are easy So why would the Rattler be any different. Even if Sig makes a few empty promises, the aftermarket fills in the blanks.

I bought into the 300 Blackout version of the X95 Tavor. While it works quite well enough, it doesn't suppress as well as the AR. Changed it over to .556 and now rely on AR direct impingement for silence. Damn thing is heavy for what it is and the ergonomics are weird enough for my tastes so that it now lives in the darkest recesses of safedom. Still prefer a more traditional layout.

So many choices, so little money...
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Old October 16, 2018, 18:55   #23
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While I think I will always have at least the 2 traditional 5.56 AR's that I currently have, I think I like the 300 blackout round, especially supressed. My wife liked shooting both the Rattler and the CMMG pistol, but preferred the Sig. So, it looks like the saving for 2 Rattlers and 2 cans begins. To this point her favorites have been her Para FAL, and her PS90. She says she prefers the Sig to the PS90 we SBR'ed a couple years ago for her. As I am blessed enough to have a gorgeous wife who likes to shoot, and doesn't ever complain about new guns showing up, I pretty much get her anything firearms related she wants if it is within my means.

Thanks for the input every one.
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