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Old November 05, 2017, 08:29   #701
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C2 - The article you just posted sort of speaks to this, but I am seeking bottom-line clarification on this. When we hear about the nuclear threat from NK, should we be translating that as almost certainly an EMP attack, rather than a conventional nuclear strike?

Second, tangentially related question, is an EMP strike the equivalent of a nuclear sucker punch? Brutally effective and difficult to defend against.

Thanks for all the posts and commentary on this.
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Old November 05, 2017, 13:10   #702
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C2 - The article you just posted sort of speaks to this, but I am seeking bottom-line clarification on this. When we hear about the nuclear threat from NK, should we be translating that as almost certainly an EMP attack, rather than a conventional nuclear strike?

Second, tangentially related question, is an EMP strike the equivalent of a nuclear sucker punch? Brutally effective and difficult to defend against.

Thanks for all the posts and commentary on this.
C2 is the expert here.

If any country only has a few nukes, then EMP weapons give them the ability to punch up to a heavier weight class.
Fire off a couple of EMP nukes, then sit back and watch your enemy destroy themselves over the next 12 months.
A couple of EMP nukes over the USA is reported to be lethal to 95 to 98% of
US population over the next 12 months.
The "problem" for anyone using EMP's on the USA, there would be zero reason not to devastate the country of origin with conventional nukes impacting the ground and radiating the place for ages.
Back to MAD.

Bottom line, North Korea will only get in one shot/hit on the USA or anyone for that matter.
After that one shot, they will simply cease to exist for all time.
Same goes for any country attacking the USA.

Those subs, our boomers sitting around in deep water, made anyone winning a nuclear war with the USA a pipe dream, the moment they came on line.

WE get hit with nukes, we loose, they loose, and no one will even know who fired first is my guess.
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Old November 05, 2017, 13:19   #703
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The cooling ponds are a closed cycle system because the water contains material from the rods which is radioactive. Once the water stops flowing, the water heats and boils away exposing the rods. Once exposed the rods melt and begin to burn creating a radioactive smoking cloud. The reactor itself should shut down just fine, if not then it melts and flows down into the bottom of the containment vessel. It's the ponds that are the biggie.
YH, I'll run the numbers but I'm like you, down wind of PV. I've got good plume simulation models but I know we will not have a lot of time, depending on the time of the year. Maybe a day or so.
That's my main issue, do I run, or do I plan to bunker down and wait it out.

I've got a small "hole" that would be good for a few weeks, but its size limitations prevent anything long term, simply not enough protected sq footage.

Running away and going to ground both suck for a host of different reasons.
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Old November 05, 2017, 14:34   #704
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If NK exploded a couple of nukes outside of the atmosphere, there would be little if any fallout, no physical damage and relatively little loss of life (as compared to a ground burst), at least in the first few hours when a president would consider an appropriate response.

In those first few minutes or hours after an EMP, what would a president likely consider? An all out nuclear attack which would reign down radioactivity and destruction not only on NK, but Japan, SK, China and possibly Russia? Realizing the US had suffered a possibly near fatal blow, would the president risk a further nuclear exchange involving China or Russia or both? Would he risk reigning down destruction on nations, even unintentionally, that he would later possibly seek some assistance from? (who makes the replacement transformers?).

Or would he consider a limited response, a few well placed nukes over NK cities possibly killing millions immediately? Who would then be considered a pariah in the eyes of the world? Isn't NK already planning to survive this with their multiple city practice evacuations? Would not radioactive fallout of a limited response still fall on surrounding allies and adversaries?

Considering all the implications of any nuclear response to such a small nation surrounded by larger adversaries and allies, would the president consider only a conventional, non-nuclear response? Considering the immediate effects of an EMP, and not yet experiencing the long term effects of an EMP that will occur in the weeks and months to come, would a conventional response be considered the proportional response?
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Old November 05, 2017, 14:50   #705
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If NK exploded a couple of nukes outside of the atmosphere, there would be little if any fallout, no physical damage and relatively little loss of life (as compared to a ground burst), at least in the first few hours when a president would consider an appropriate response.

In those first few minutes or hours after an EMP, what would a president likely consider? An all out nuclear attack which would reign down radioactivity and destruction not only on NK, but Japan, SK, China and possibly Russia? Realizing the US had suffered a possibly near fatal blow, would the president risk a further nuclear exchange involving China or Russia or both? Would he risk reigning down destruction on nations, even unintentionally, that he would later possibly seek some assistance from? (who makes the replacement transformers?).

Or would he consider a limited response, a few well placed nukes over NK cities possibly killing millions immediately? Who would then be considered a pariah in the eyes of the world? Isn't NK already planning to survive this with their multiple city practice evacuations? Would not radioactive fallout of a limited response still fall on surrounding allies and adversaries?

Considering all the implications of any nuclear response to such a small nation surrounded by larger adversaries and allies, would the president consider only a conventional, non-nuclear response? Considering the immediate effects of an EMP, and not yet experiencing the long term effects of an EMP that will occur in the weeks and months to come, would a conventional response be considered the proportional response?

We get hit that hard, the first thing that goes out the window is rational anything.

MAD is referred to as mad, for a reason.

Your thought processes are rational and I'd agree with most all of them, but on the other hand, our adversaries would take advantage of the USA being knocked to its knees.

We go down, most everyone else is going down with us.
Just the way the world works.
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Old November 05, 2017, 16:20   #706
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YH, i would agree, there will be little rational thought once the fireworks begin. My point is that it would be rational for NK or other national leaders to conclude that an EMP attack on the US will likely result in only a minimal nuclear or non-nuclear response. That such a response is survivable for NK given the low tech nature of NK and its ability to move people underground quickly.

In this situation the US looses almost everything while NK loses relatively little. So what would hold NK back?
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Old November 05, 2017, 16:47   #707
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YH, i would agree, there will be little rational thought once the fireworks begin. My point is that it would be rational for NK or other national leaders to conclude that an EMP attack on the US will likely result in only a minimal nuclear or non-nuclear response. That such a response is survivable for NK given the low tech nature of NK and its ability to move people underground quickly.

In this situation the US looses almost everything while NK loses relatively little. So what would hold NK back?
Possible.
I really can't see the USA or any country being reasonable, if hit with nukes, emp or otherwise.
NK would cease to exist if they ever fire upon us with nukes, to do anything else, would invite all the other bad actors to attack whatever remained of the USA.
Modern ground bursting mega nukes fug up everything for generations to come, if not for life.
As for the other nearby countries, Russia and China have backed this regime for decades, if NK fires, China and Russia share a great deal of the responsibility. Them getting hurt, oh well, should have done something to prevent it.
The way China and Russia are now behaving and helping reign in NK, I believe they fully understand, we get him by NK, they will not come out of this whole of at all.
We get hit by NK, I'd suspect a full on nuclear exchange, with Russia and China firing on us, to try and kill us off completely before we launch.

If modern nukes get launched, the world as we know it is over regardless.
I'd like to see either Russia or China simply kill this fat fug, take over the north and denuke the area completely.

That would be in the best interest of everyone.
China and Russia do not have a death wish, at least not over the past 70 years, can't see that changing.
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Old November 05, 2017, 16:50   #708
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This may still be an option for us.
https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-a-neutron-bomb-604308
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Old November 05, 2017, 16:57   #709
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Interesting meeting on Friday. China has been the master of the NK game. Note how fast NK advanced the missile and bomb program. Also note that China has a relatively small ICBM force. Also it should be noted that the Chinese warhead program has focused on "specialized" warheads. Some of these warheads maybe gamma enhanced warheads. Typical EMP numbers are 50-60KVm numbers. Stuff I've seen for the Chinese are 140KVm. The thought is the Chinese don't want a radioactive world and have planned accordingly.
That said, it appears the Chinese have lost control over NK. See article I posted down in news on NK update. Note China may help us in NK. Now China is not going to let NK become part of SK. If it happens I expect that China will seize as much of NK as possible. I expect we will seize enough ground to protect the main cities in SK for the forseeable future. That may become a deep DMZ. Currently, I expect that NK is trying to build as many nukes as it can and buying time to watch the 2018 elections. Look at his yields, 280KT but he claims hydrogen, yet are not MT class. These are enhanced gamma weapons. This is my speculation.
If we wait it gets worse for us because we have a lot more to lose. Japan and SK will have major economic issues. If we go, I expect we will use neutron weapons to minimize fallout if it comes to that. This is a s--t sandwich with very little bread.
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Old November 05, 2017, 19:23   #710
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Thought Klintons signed off on the neutron bombs awhile back. Enlighten me. And on gamma bombs too.
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Old November 05, 2017, 20:55   #711
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This is why the lower yield of the NK devices:
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/super-EMP.html
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Old November 05, 2017, 21:06   #712
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This is why the lower yield of the NK devices:
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/super-EMP.html
when only got a a couple of shots, make them count!
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Old November 05, 2017, 22:14   #713
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Just thinkin' out loud...

So a super-EMP attack on the US will cause major damage to the US, Canada and Mexico, while a return super EMP attack on NK could cause more damage to SK, Japan, China and Russia than to NK itself, a less desirable option for the president.

A major nuclear ground or air-burst attack on NK could risk a full on nuclear exchange with China and Russia in addition to the already inflicted EMP destruction, also a less desirable option for the president.

A nuclear response with enhanced radiation devices (neutron bombs) would be more desirable, but apparently most if not all were decommissioned.

This would leave a limited nuclear response followed up by a conventional response as likely being the more desirable response for the president. But this response would be one NK might believe it could survive, throwing MAD out the window as destruction is not mutually assured.

The president is now visiting the nations around NK- SK, Japan, China, the Phillipines, the ones most likely to suffer the effects of or be involved in a war with NK, this may be a war-prep visit. A visit with Putin has also been arranged, suggesting that NK could be a significant part of the discussion. Also it would seem likely that the topic of the use of nuclear weapons and responses might come up.

This may be a time that decisions are made, decisions about supposedly acceptable options, options in which no one wins, options in which we may end up losing big.

Last edited by legolas1; November 05, 2017 at 22:43.
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Old November 05, 2017, 23:02   #714
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Just thinkin' out loud...

So a super-EMP attack on the US will cause major damage to the US, Canada and Mexico, while a return super EMP attack on NK could cause more damage to SK, Japan, China and Russia than to NK itself, a less desirable option for the president.

A major nuclear ground or air-burst attack on NK could risk a full on nuclear exchange with China and Russia in addition to the already inflicted EMP destruction, also a less desirable option for the president.

A nuclear response with enhanced radiation devices (neutron bombs) would be more desirable, but apparently most if not all were decommissioned.

This would leave a limited nuclear response followed up by a conventional response as likely being the more desirable response for the president. But this response would be one NK might believe it could survive, throwing MAD out the window as destruction is not mutually assured.

The president is now visiting the nations around NK- SK, Japan, China, the Phillipines, the ones most likely to suffer the effects of or be involved in a war with NK, this may be a war-prep visit. A visit with Putin has also been arranged, suggesting that NK could be a significant part of the discussion. Also it would seem likely that the topic of the use of nuclear weapons and responses might come up.

This may be a time that decisions are made, decisions about supposedly acceptable options, options in which no one wins, options in which we may end up losing big.
Just a gut feeling, but I really do expect Trump to solve this NK issue one way or the other, don;t see it festering much longer.
Chubs done stepped off into a shit pile and no amount of wiping is going to remove it from his boots.
The "how" its done is all I'm concerned about.
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Old November 05, 2017, 23:17   #715
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Thans for the link C2, and all the other info you bring to the discussion. When this happens, it's going to be the mother of all black swans.
If 95 -98% die the first year and 50 % die each of the following 5 years, what's that compute to....?
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Old November 05, 2017, 23:24   #716
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Just a gut feeling, but I really do expect Trump to solve this NK issue one way or the other, don;t see it festering much longer.
Chubs done stepped off into a shit pile and no amount of wiping is going to remove it from his boots.
The "how" its done is all I'm concerned about.
I say if he wants to play with nukes send him some of America's finest via express air mail and screw anyone that can't take a joke. Chinese won't do crap as their economy hinges on Americans buying televisions and cheap trinkets made with lead paint.
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Old November 06, 2017, 07:12   #717
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Thans for the link C2, and all the other info you bring to the discussion. When this happens, it's going to be the mother of all black swans.
If 95 -98% die the first year and 50 % die each of the following 5 years, what's that compute to....?
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Old November 06, 2017, 18:29   #718
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C2 and YH, i also appreciate your insight and info, thanks for your posts.
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Old November 06, 2017, 21:01   #719
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C2 and YH, i also appreciate your insight and info, thanks for your posts.
C2 is the expert, me, just an old time survivalist since I was 17 and saw first hand how fragile life really is for unarmed peoples.
I learned a long time ago to listen to people that know more than myself, has kept me safe and sound.
Know what the threats are, understand the threats fully, then make plans to deal with the threats.
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Old November 07, 2017, 08:04   #720
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C2 is the expert, me, just an old time survivalist since I was 17 and saw first hand how fragile life really is for unarmed peoples.
I learned a long time ago to listen to people that know more than myself, has kept me safe and sound.
Know what the threats are, understand the threats fully, then make plans to deal with the threats.
I think you sell yourself short. At the very least, you provide insight which helps us apply the info, put it in perspective in a real world environment, which is critical.

I think most of us greatly value what we learn here on the Files from others more knowledgable or experienced than ourselves. We are fortunate that so many of those folks are generous with their knowledge in many fields. C2, GP, Huey - the list is long and I daresay you are on it. I for one greatly appreciate this group of miscreants
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Old November 07, 2017, 11:08   #721
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Off the subject but I agree with J. I watched this site for a long time before I chimed in. I found interesting folks here. I think because we have chosen the FAL, this group tends to be older and think outside the herd mentality. As such, sharing life's experiences enriches the whole, without the macho BS some of the other folks suffer from. Now of course, I could be totally wrong.
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Old November 07, 2017, 12:54   #722
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Background on the cooling ponds. I know these guys are lefties but the info is correct and they don't make a political statement. The Blogs show how dumb folks are as as we head to the 85 IQ planet......
http://www.psr.org/environment-and-h...lear-fuel.html
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Old November 07, 2017, 15:48   #723
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Background on the cooling ponds. I know these guys are lefties but the info is correct and they don't make a political statement. The Blogs show how dumb folks are as as we head to the 85 IQ planet......
http://www.psr.org/environment-and-h...lear-fuel.html
This rides with what I'd read elsewhere, in that these rods, in cooling ponds or not, are still deadly for a hell of a lot longer than our youngest members here and their great, great, great grand children.

When I hear any of the white coat guys say this shit is safe, those comments have so many buts connected with it, the statements they make are worthless.
This stuff and its storage are true generational issues/problems and remain deadly for all practical purposes, forever.

112 nuclear sites, and their general locations will one day, become no go areas, forever.

30 or 35 years ago, family and I were in Nuremberg when the plant cooked off in the Ukraine, its still a no go area and will remain such for a very long time.

The afternoon the nuclear sensors went off was a bad day where I worked, in that most all of us, had no idea what they were at first.
I was a middle grade mucky muck, and we did not even know we had nuke monitors.
The boss walked up to me and asked, what they hell is that noise, what does it mean, and how do we turn the damn thing off, since it was wailing and scaring the hell out of our hospital patients.

We learned quickly what it meant, then it was a wild ass few days, as we crammed 250 patients down into the basement and sub basements on the complex.

That day, I learned that this shit can occur at anytime and without any warning, damned near anywhere.

Ugh!
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Old November 07, 2017, 19:41   #724
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I think Trump is being regarded as one clazy-ass round eye.
In his recent travels, he may be patiently explaining that with an effective emp hit we have little to lose.

Once incapacitated, how long before various factions pour over the borders to "help" and distribute "aid"? After all, the U.S. sends tons of humanitarian aid to just about every disaster on the planet.

Can't wait to see what chi-com mre's look like.

I would bet China thought NK was cute when it was puppy. Now that it has grown into a rabid pit bull with multiple masters, they are probably shitting themselves silly with ah mose ramentable bitching.

I'm thinking that Trump is advising that if NK lights one off, ALL their friends are gonna get a little on them; fog of fuking war and all that.
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Old November 08, 2017, 12:55   #725
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it has been said before, the novel "One Second After" -which became a trilogy of three novels was written about an EMP attack and the aftermath. Well written and worth the time to read them. The information in the books caused me to adjust my activities.

Yes, the FalFiles is a priceless resource.
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Old November 10, 2017, 13:57   #726
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Who has a .gov bunker in their AO? It might do some good to compile a list of where they all are.
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Old November 10, 2017, 17:07   #727
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Who has a .gov bunker in their AO? It might do some good to compile a list of where they all are.
Our panic room has lead sheet from an X-ray room was paid to decommission at a facility do their radiation surveys lining the two walls facing into basement and ceiling that are not underground and second door of airlock is a lead lined door from same room. House has three doors from that doctors facility. Has an air filtration system that removes radioactive contaminants from air and will run off electricity or hand pump. No way house or panic room survives a close hit but far enough from ATL no issue if Lockheed-Martin, downtown, Savannah Nuclear Plant or any target know of that might merit a warhead we can stay in room, survive fallout and residual radiation 120 days before crack door open to rest of house.

It should run positive pressure and not have untenable contaminates. Can then go full year inside with filtered air supply and house at positive pressure. With Brick house, ballistic windows and ballistic/force rated entry doors an overpressure followed by an underpressure event from blast close as Atlanta or Lockheed-Martin should not harm main structure of house unless uncontrolled fire rolls for 60 miles. The underpressure spike following the overpressure is most difficult to keep windows in house. Overpressure flexibles them in then underpressure wants to suck out as they decompress. Security hurricane rated storm windows over double paned glass with ballistic liners should keep underpressure from sucking windows out. Most worry bout windows/doors getting blown in when need to worry more about them getting sucked out. Have our plastic, duct tape, plywood, extra filters, batteries, off grid power, ability to rig an air-lock for our only ingress/egress door. Basement with 11 foot walls and brick exterior was big selling point. Lots of work done in 25 years from metal roof to panic rooms on main level and serious fallout shelter in basement either die fast or live to fight to fight another day if home or close.

Grew up and still live in tornado area. Seen three live and had two run over my farm removing the barn second time, 70 acres first time. Houses built in low areas and storm shelters in basements. Was raised where parents, grandparents, great grandparents and more had storm shelters with food, water and basic survival supplies as no 911 till college age.

What is odd is how a lot of older and current nuclear sites security is so low. There is enough radioactive material buried around the old Lockheed Martin reactor site a group of dedicated people could excavate enough for a dirty bomb that might not be deadly but make thousands of people really sick and greatly shorten their lifespan.

Buddy of mine was surveying tools at a nuclear plant and all that were so hot exceeded safety margin he spray painted purple and yellow then threw in a barrel for disposal. Said he filled two barrels of radioactive tools at the end of that plants reactor refueling and maintenance cycle. He was one of the last contractors to leave as had to keep safety guys till the very end. One weekend his wife talked him into visiting a local flea market. A vendor was selling name brand U.S. made hand tools out of a pair of barrels all painted purple and yellow. He said men were almost wrestling each other to get at the bargain tools.

Somehow a plant employee or transport person managed to get them off the facility without setting off any alarms or paperwork discrepancy. He said took a wide berth and kept mouth shut as most would be gone before he could report it and said he would be doing paperwork for ten years. He does refueling, maintenance and clean ups/mitigation. Stories he tells are scary but lengths some facilities are going to to fix issues is refreshing while others are not. Said one facility two visitors in a rental car got lost, drove around a lot full of barrels with liquid waste and their car was so hot it was not allowed to leave facility. Company did not buy the run into brick wall or set on fire and walk away insurance so was stuck buying the rental company a new car.
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Old November 10, 2017, 17:40   #728
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I wasn't meaning to shelter there. I'm way too vindictive for that.
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Old November 10, 2017, 18:15   #729
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Hey, Huey, which of the PA plants did your friend identify as potential trouble ? I'm guessing TMI and Peachbottom for two, how about Limerick ?
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Old November 10, 2017, 20:11   #730
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I wasn't meaning to shelter there. I'm way too vindictive for that.


Got to admit though, would not go out of my way, to speak with them, but,,,,,if they ever presented themselves, well, ya know, a fellow has got to do what a fellow feels is right at the time!
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Old November 10, 2017, 21:04   #731
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Well folks, again this isn't just about what an EMP hard strike does to America
it ends up killing likely multiple times the domestic fatalities abroad simply due to famines and yes, even in China.
Just MILLIONS of Gallons of American milk are turned into powder and sold overseas
It's not just Grains
We ship tons of Pork to China as well

not just that either
think Tennis Shoes
most run leather uppers
where is the leather sourced from ?
mostly American stockyards...it's a huge agricultural export to China.

While Liberals whine you will notice every time Trump goes overseas everyone kisses his royal White ass
shit the Chinese made Obama walk out the ass end of Airfarce One but treated Trump like the Lost Manchu Emperor.
Same happened with the Arabs

Part of this is Who he was prior to becoming President
Blacks in Deepest Darkest Africa knew who Trump was

but the bigly part is he scares the shit out of some people overseas

Anyways here's one to think about:

so let's say we did get slammed with a massive EMP strike that took the nation off line, fried most everything not in a grounded Faraday cage.
What are the contingency plans for a boomer counter strike...
it's not like they are going to be in much if any contact with the command structure back home.

I know years ago there was a post apocalypse type of communications system that used sonic vibrations transmitted through the earths crust into the oceans to reach the sub packs that was used by both NATO and the Soviets. We had one of those stations next county over, Extra Low Frequency {ELF} repeater that was decomisioned maybe 14 years ago now.
Huge, mostly underground facillity that's currently abandoned.
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Old November 10, 2017, 21:59   #732
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Just wondering, C2's article on the super EMP weapons indicates that a 200,000 volt pulse could be generated. If memory serves, much of the the hardening that is done (if it is done) on civilian and gov electronics is in the 25,000 to 50,000 volt range.

Is it possible that pretty much any known current electronic hardening can be burned through by a super EMP weapon, if the 200,000 or more volt range is reached?
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Old November 10, 2017, 23:47   #733
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Just wondering, C2's article on the super EMP weapons indicates that a 200,000 volt pulse could be generated. If memory serves, much of the the hardening that is done (if it is done) on civilian and gov electronics is in the 25,000 to 50,000 volt range.

Is it possible that pretty much any known current electronic hardening can be burned through by a super EMP weapon, if the 200,000 or more volt range is reached?
Well, just goes to reason, if things are harden to 50,000, I'd make my weapon to hit 200,000 just ta be on the safe side.
But that's just me.

Kinda like flying above missile range at 30,000 feet, until your aircraft don;t come home one day, after the missiles got upgraded to 50,000 feet. Everything is always in upgrade mode.
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Old November 11, 2017, 16:53   #734
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Could this be the reason the EMP commission was allowed to expire? Billions could be spent on hardening electronics when the opposition just spends a few bucks to up the power of the pulse.

if this were the case would a super EMP also knock out military electronics that have not been hardened to a higher (over 50,000) level? All the billions spent on aircraft like the F-35 gone in an instant? Tanks won't work, ships won't work, missiles won't work? Night vision, electronic scopes, GPS gone?

Need more rifles, need more ammo, at least they will work.
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Old November 11, 2017, 17:44   #735
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Could this be the reason the EMP commission was allowed to expire? Billions could be spent on hardening electronics when the opposition just spends a few bucks to up the power of the pulse.

if this were the case would a super EMP also knock out military electronics that have not been hardened to a higher (over 50,000) level? All the billions spent on aircraft like the F-35 gone in an instant? Tanks won't work, ships won't work, missiles won't work? Night vision, electronic scopes, GPS gone?

Need more rifles, need more ammo, at least they will work.
The military tends to overbuild stuff as a matter of course.
With EMP, no idea, but if something is rated to 50K, suspect the military stuff will handle double that.
Gotta make everything GI proof.
GI's can and do break the unbreakable all the time.

I would suspect, ANYONE thinking of using EMP against the USA, is also thinking, they had damn well better knock our dicks into the dirt the first time, if not, retribution is going to be a real bitch, so if to 50K better make this shit 250K.

Missiles in our subs will be able to launch, being protected in deep water, which is why, only a nut case like chubs would think to use these against us.
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Old November 12, 2017, 16:05   #736
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YH, i would agree, anyone contemplating an attack on the US will employ overkill to make sure we don't get up. Which would suggest that more than 1 super EMP would be employed.

Sub launched super EMP weapons could cause some ambiguity as to who is attacking, NK? China? Russia? Iran? (container ship). This could delay a response enough so that multiple EMPs could be launched from separate areas, further degrading military hardened electronic systems. Once satellites, ground centers, ships, AEW aircraft are damaged, it could be difficult determining who is doing the attacking and stopping them.

One EMP would not be enough, an adversary would likely launch repeated EMP attacks, perhaps over days or weeks, to burn through whatever electronics remain and damage any new systems coming on line.

A wise man once said something like- destroy your enemy completely, lest he follow you home. Which is bad if you are on the receiving end.
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Old November 12, 2017, 17:00   #737
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YH, i would agree, anyone contemplating an attack on the US will employ overkill to make sure we don't get up. Which would suggest that more than 1 super EMP would be employed.

Sub launched super EMP weapons could cause some ambiguity as to who is attacking, NK? China? Russia? Iran? (container ship). This could delay a response enough so that multiple EMPs could be launched from separate areas, further degrading military hardened electronic systems. Once satellites, ground centers, ships, AEW aircraft are damaged, it could be difficult determining who is doing the attacking and stopping them.

One EMP would not be enough, an adversary would likely launch repeated EMP attacks, perhaps over days or weeks, to burn through whatever electronics remain and damage any new systems coming on line.

A wise man once said something like- destroy your enemy completely, lest he follow you home. Which is bad if you are on the receiving end.
I think I heard that said a few times, come to think on it a little, destroy your enemy completely, if ya go to their lands to wage war, or they will sure as hell follow ya back home and destroy you and yours.

Agree with normal actors, Russia and China, they can both destroy and also understand the retribution part, being MAD.

The short fat guy, which Trumpster did not call him this morning in the PI, funny as hell when a world leader trolls a dictator in public, is no where normal, nor the jihadist, both of them are stupid enough to let one fly and damn the response to their people.

Any country that starves to death millions upon millions of their own people, or any group that uses their own young children, as walking bombs, are more than capable of doing really dumb shit.
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Old November 13, 2017, 07:25   #738
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Hey, Huey, which of the PA plants did your friend identify as potential trouble ? I'm guessing TMI and Peachbottom for two, how about Limerick ?
I don't remember which, he has had a stable job past decade in university setting and likely not current as spent five years cleaning up Savanah River before went to university. It's actually amazing how much radioactive material is on average college campus for research. Especially if they have a medical school, veterinary school or large physics program.

Quote:
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Well folks, again this isn't just about what an EMP hard strike does to America
it ends up killing likely multiple times the domestic fatalities abroad simply due to famines and yes, even in China.
Just MILLIONS of Gallons of American milk are turned into powder and sold overseas
It's not just Grains
We ship tons of Pork to China as well

not just that either
think Tennis Shoes
most run leather uppers
where is the leather sourced from ?
mostly American stockyards...it's a huge agricultural export to China.

While Liberals whine you will notice every time Trump goes overseas everyone kisses his royal White ass
shit the Chinese made Obama walk out the ass end of Airfarce One but treated Trump like the Lost Manchu Emperor.
Same happened with the Arabs

Part of this is Who he was prior to becoming President
Blacks in Deepest Darkest Africa knew who Trump was

but the bigly part is he scares the shit out of some people overseas

Anyways here's one to think about:

so let's say we did get slammed with a massive EMP strike that took the nation off line, fried most everything not in a grounded Faraday cage.
What are the contingency plans for a boomer counter strike...
it's not like they are going to be in much if any contact with the command structure back home.

I know years ago there was a post apocalypse type of communications system that used sonic vibrations transmitted through the earths crust into the oceans to reach the sub packs that was used by both NATO and the Soviets. We had one of those stations next county over, Extra Low Frequency {ELF} repeater that was decomisioned maybe 14 years ago now.
Huge, mostly underground facillity that's currently abandoned.
I think we should only elect Presidents with enough crazy genes and business sense to scare our enemies to death. America began with Statesmen running the country, would leave their farm or business, go take a turn at the helm then go quietly back to their business or farm. Trump is the perfect man for us right now as nobody has a clue what he might do if pushed. I like that United States found Teddy Rosevelt's "Big Stick" method of diplomacy again. Do what we say or we may bomb you into the stone age. Fear is the world's best motivator. I really enjoy the new scandal per day coming on The Hill as retrobates and criminals activities are not being covered up as much by this administration.

Navy still operates their SLF and ELF transmitters for talking to nuclear missile subs running in deep water. They can get launch commands even if sitting silent on bottom of the China Sea or under the polar ice cap. I believe the Clam Lake transmitter in Wisconsin is still up and running along with who knows how many still classified sites. Navy's highest classified submarine facility is in Idaho. It's rumored they have under land passages to large lakes hundreds of miles inland. The conspiracy folks and some scientists say the Navy is operating underground bases in Nevada that submarines can navigate from ocean to using underground aquaducts. I would assume with most of earths surface covered with water the Navy has programs as odd as Air Force and NASA. At least I hope they do. I would have a fleet of submarines double what we admit to with ten times the capabilities imaginable.

Edit:
If I were supreme ruler every piece of WWII equipment that survived the war would be in storage and basic maintenance pulled every year. Battle ships would be dry docked and sprayed with an inch of cosmoline along with all other oil burning, black powder shell launching vessel. All B17's and B24's plus P51 Mustangs, Corsairs, etc would be in steel and concrete underground bunkers. Even all our old vacuum tube radar and radio systems would be boxed up so if EMP wiped our modern equipment we could revert to WWII equipment quickly. Dumb bombs, 50 caliber machine guns and propeller driven aircraft beat the crap out of F22's that have their brains wiped. Like M1's, M14's, Browning 30 caliber machine guns once we paid for it and upgraded the old stuff would be greased up and put in one of the many empty warehouses we have sitting around. Once paid for why discard if proven to kill wholesale in WWI, WWII, Korea of Vietnam. I have Nam era ground radar for detecting moving people and seismic sensors that understand many smaller fire bases in Afganistan would be proud to have right now to detect close enemy to their fences. Right now buying one generation old military equipment on fleabay. Why is it there? Should be saved.
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Old November 13, 2017, 22:08   #739
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Aren't the ELF systems made up of long, long cables that would likely conduct an EMP pulse back to the transmitters, burning up the electronics?

Just speculating, but the hope was that the military would provide some protection after an EMP, but with the advent of the super-EMP or multiple EMPs, their total dependence on electronic systems may turn out to be the Achilles heel, the weakness we didn't quite realize, like the Death Star, that 1 small enemy could exploit.

Huey, i was thinking along the line you mentioned, about having 'obsolete' military equipment that was not dependent upon electronics, the principle being in the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

A lot of our military's old equipment was sent to third world countries in Asia, Africa and South America, where some of it still resides.

If the US were taken out by an EMP, it would damage the world economy significantly, likely causing a depression and a collapse of world trade, making nations compete and war over resources.

When the US suffers the effects of an EMP, if the military is rendered ineffective with damaged weapons dependent on electronics, who will have the military weapons that could still operate effectively, who will be the one-eyed man?

That man is likely south of the border, and they will flood this nation to loot and plunder.
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Old November 13, 2017, 22:30   #740
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That man is likely south of the border, and they will flood this nation to loot and plunder.
There is at least a bit still north of the border in private hands

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Old November 13, 2017, 22:53   #741
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Aren't the ELF systems made up of long, long cables that would likely conduct an EMP pulse back to the transmitters, burning up the electronics?

Just speculating, but the hope was that the military would provide some protection after an EMP, but with the advent of the super-EMP or multiple EMPs, their total dependence on electronic systems may turn out to be the Achilles heel, the weakness we didn't quite realize, like the Death Star, that 1 small enemy could exploit.

Huey, i was thinking along the line you mentioned, about having 'obsolete' military equipment that was not dependent upon electronics, the principle being in the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

A lot of our military's old equipment was sent to third world countries in Asia, Africa and South America, where some of it still resides.

If the US were taken out by an EMP, it would damage the world economy significantly, likely causing a depression and a collapse of world trade, making nations compete and war over resources.

When the US suffers the effects of an EMP, if the military is rendered ineffective with damaged weapons dependent on electronics, who will have the military weapons that could still operate effectively, who will be the one-eyed man?

That man is likely south of the border, and they will flood this nation to loot and plunder.

It would be like locusts coming across the southern border, which would require a shit load of ammo to deflect.
When the USA catches a cold, Mexico comes down with terminal cancer.
When a million starving Mexicans descend upon Tucson, Tucson will have a sudden change of heart on unfettered immigration.
I plan to put up signs, Tucson this way, everything is free and everyone is welcome, in Spanish.
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Old November 14, 2017, 18:42   #742
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YH, locusts sounds like a good comparison. What happens when south and central America become like Venezuela? Who will they blame and where will they go? At least they might bring some Imbel and Argie Fals with them.

Yeah, a Mustang would be nice, might be difficult to keep gassed up though.
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Old November 14, 2017, 19:47   #743
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Well, they will be walking at first as the EMP will get northern Mexico. Maybe good market for old cars from Mexico to the US. Like in one second after, Mexico may reclaim some territory. However, Fort Bliss may have something to say about that. The Abrams and Bradleys will probably still operate. Humm...maybe us down here will be under the local warlord.
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Old November 14, 2017, 21:25   #744
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Well, they will be walking at first as the EMP will get northern Mexico. Maybe good market for old cars from Mexico to the US. Like in one second after, Mexico may reclaim some territory. However, Fort Bliss may have something to say about that. The Abrams and Bradleys will probably still operate. Humm...maybe us down here will be under the local warlord.
This border is about as gunned up here in AZ as I've ever seen, folks know, anything bad happens, we're on our own concerning fleeing migrating "locust".

One real nice thing about AZ, not a lot of large Mexican towns nearby the border, ones within walking distance, if no power for pumps and no water.
Local border ones will need to be redirected, but that can happen with a little work.

One second after, really means flipping the internal switch to "mean" mode, and leaving it there until such time as the masses weed themselves out of our gardens through natural selection processes.

Get through the first 30 days, most likely will be able to survive.
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Old November 14, 2017, 21:30   #745
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YH, locusts sounds like a good comparison. What happens when south and central America become like Venezuela? Who will they blame and where will they go? At least they might bring some Imbel and Argie Fals with them.

Yeah, a Mustang would be nice, might be difficult to keep gassed up though.
If they ever overwhelm the BP, SO, etc, then its upon the citizens to step up and defend their own homesteads, banding together and dealing with the issues as they arise.

Other than the narco boys, they don;t have a gun culture south of the border, simply not the manpower and knowledge to organize and wage war.

Americans did in fact write the book on how to be plan ass mean and deadly when required.
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Old November 14, 2017, 21:31   #746
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YH, locusts sounds like a good comparison. What happens when south and central America become like Venezuela? Who will they blame and where will they go? At least they might bring some Imbel and Argie Fals with them.

Yeah, a Mustang would be nice, might be difficult to keep gassed up though.
None of us could afford the maintenance. After the balloon goes up, no way to keep it running for very long.

Nice thought, though
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Old November 14, 2017, 21:33   #747
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None of us could afford the maintenance. After the balloon goes up, no way to keep it running for very long.

Nice thought, though


I read that, as he meant a real horse, as in, a mustang horse, not a car!

Comes from having horses for over 30 years here.

Slow on the uptake I am today!
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Old November 14, 2017, 22:12   #748
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I got this in my UPS delivery today.



Add to the three purchased Monday after Vegas shooting, the two Gen 3's purchased when word was they were square and that's eight Gen 3 Franklin Binaries. Have a Gen 2 and a Gen 1 that both run but the Gen 1 has to be babied. Have a pair of the initial Gen 1 Echo triggers with the super light springs they were sending to Utube reviewers and Bloggers. The Echos are in wife's 5.7×28's and will run as long as you let the rifle bounce a little by holding it a tad loose.

Have four AR 10's but in oddball cartridges and thought with all the M1a's, FAL's/L1a1's, CETME's, H&K's didn't need a NATO cartridge AR 10 and the two parts groups have put back are going to another non standard cartridge. Have pair in 338 Federal, pair in 6XC and next pair is most likely going to be 7mm-08's. With the super cheap Palmetto AR 10's ready to run plan is to watch the Black Friday through after Christmas sales and pick up a pair of Palmetto AR 10's in 308. Also looking for a hammer forged 4150 heavy barrel with flutes for lots of cooling surface area and melonite/deep salt bath treatment. Find right gas block and buffer setup along with good muzzle brakes and will have a pair of binary AR 10's.

Have been buying magazines already and have 25, 30 and 40 round AR 10 mags starting to pile up. Plan to bite the bullets literally and once know the rifles will run happy in binary buy at least one X Products 50 round drum for each rifle once burn out whatever barrel Palmetto ships rifles with to get a tough barrel with well engineered brake then stick a 50 round drum in each so have one at front door and one at back door. A 50 round binary mag dump of 7.62×51 to start the party might just terrify the Mexican gang bangers around here so bad ones that survive and their friends go back to Ol Mexico.

Guy about two miles up the road from me now has two 45-70 Gatlin Guns and ammo by the pallet. A Marine armorer about six miles up the road from me has belt fed H&K with lots of linked ammo. Says if SHTF and law was less important than living could make it go rata tat tat. That said he is like me waiting for the Franklin Binary for HK's. All those rifles dot mil didn't archive seemed to have ended up in the CMP program. Believe if world tries to go sideways except for the liberals that believe the police will protect them will be a lot of Garrards with black tips, M1a's and more AR's than can imagine pop up and no quarter shall be given. I had a client that till died restored WW II aircraft to 100% function. Those and more are hid all around the U.S. of A. without discussing the tank collectors. Believe there are plenty of hoarders that will make it a day of reckoning.
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Old November 14, 2017, 22:18   #749
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i was thinking about the P-51 Mustang in the video, low tech and EMP resistant, but as stated hard to maintain and no spare parts. It would be hard keeping a mustang horse gassed up though, beans would be in short supply.

C2, would the Bradleys and M1s still function after a supposed super EMP, considering their dependence on electronics? If not, there is a tank museum around here with some intact Shermans, guns may not work though.
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Old November 14, 2017, 22:59   #750
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Huey, lots of cool stuff, but during the 90's, when Clinton threatened to ban everything 'assault rifle' ish, i began to consider what it would take to keep the guns running with no outside resupply. What if mags, ammo, spare parts were not obtainable, what would it take to keep things going for 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?

Which is what we face with an EMP, no spare parts, no spare mags, no additional ammo (unless we take it from someone else), for the foreseeable future.

So what is best to stock up on? Considering the aftermath of an EMP there could be frequent encounters requiring firearm use for years and years. What goes away first? is full auto really a good idea? Considering no resupply, what you start out with is all you may ever have, where should the money be spent?
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