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Old October 16, 2017, 21:38   #1
Elwarpo
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44 Warp - rimless 444 marlin

So the project I have been working on is a large bore round for 308 rifles. I noticed the 444 marlin and 30-06 cases have almost identical dimensions (except for length). So if you straight wall a 30-06 case and cut it down to the 2.225" of the 444 marlin, you can fit 44 cal bullets. The best part is you can use cheap 30-06 brass for a starting point, 444 Marlin dies, and the rim diameter and rough overall length is the same as a 308 so no other modifications to an AR308 (or other 308 rifle) than the barrel. You even have the same mag capacity as 308. It is also slightly tapered which helps extraction.

It headspaces on the case mouth (like the 30carbine, 45 ACP, 45 Raptor...) so overall length is important.

So I decided to go forward and have Dave Manson Precision Reamers (here in Michigan) make me a custom reamer. Sent the reamer to McGowan Precision Barrels to have a 44 cal blank turned into an AR10 Barrel (DPMS Extension). I wanted a FAL but could not find someone to make a barrel. Picked up a Aero Precision M5E1 kit (FDE Lower, Upper and Handguard, NIB bolt, LPK and Buffer tube), Radian Raptor Charging Handle, Odin Works Mag extension, Magpul SLS stock and pistol Grip, and a Vortex Razor red dot sight.

The 444 marlin is an unrecognized cartridge, but it will put a bullet out faster and shoots flatter than the other big bore cartridges (45-70, 45 raptor...) due to the higher ballistic coefficient of the narrower bullet. Because it was designed for lever guns it does this at a much lower chamber pressure than a 308 (42,000 versus 62,000 of the 30. In a AR 308). I foresee even higher velocities as the pressure approaches 308 levels, but I plan on staying at 444 pressures as a safety measure.

Typical 444 Marlin/ 44 Warp velocities expected are:
240 grain 2450 fps
265 grain 2300 fps
300 grain 2200 fps
405 grain 1800 fps

My goal is a 405 grain bullet at 1050 fps silenced as a short range quiet thumper round. I thought of the round when I saw police officers entering a building with AR 15s and shotguns. I figured that a metallic cartridge with the ballistics of a 12 guage and the capacity of an AR15 would be a lot better for entering a hostile building. I do not plan on patenting this, just let anyone use the idea.

Finally here is some mocked up rounds showing 240 and 280 bullets seated at the same depth. Final rounds are awaiting the barrel to be finished for proper fit (based off 8mm Mauser, so the rims are slightly different, 30-06 brass is on the way). Left to right 308 hunting round, 7.62x51 mil spec, 44 Warp with 240 grain bullet, 44 Warp with 280 grain bullet.

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Old October 16, 2017, 21:55   #2
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I am also considering a shorter case length version for the AR15. With the lower pressure, it will not batter them like full high pressure rounds. This will also allow hunting in the midwest which limits hunting to 1.8" straight walled cartridges. While lower in power than the 458socom, it will still have plenty of power up close and use the same bolt as the 458 Socom. It would also use cheap 308 brass, which is too short for the 44 Warp.
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Old October 16, 2017, 22:31   #3
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Better get your twist-rate and bullet selection nailed.

Otherwise, hello 6 MOA short-range gun.
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Old October 16, 2017, 23:01   #4
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Very cool. I am a fan of the Triple 4’s, and shot my first black bear with a Marlin lever in .444. Round is straight hell on anything in it’s path. Your idea is just weird enough that I may consider persuing it myself.

Standing by for more development info...
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Old October 16, 2017, 23:09   #5
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That looks like an interesting development. The only thing is suggest is keeping the pressure down. Cartridges headspacing on the mouth don't like to push the pressure envelope much.

You might also look into adding a 444 Marlin factory crimp die into your reloading set. They're not too expensive, simple to operate, and easy to get a consistent crimp on each case. Plus they're made by Lee so they don't cost a fortune, either. It may help you hold a consistent headspace.
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Old October 17, 2017, 00:23   #6
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a blunt bullet shape will need a good feed ramp, i tried a 30-30 180 gr RN bullet in a AR 762x39 and it would not feed.
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Old October 17, 2017, 06:59   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
a blunt bullet shape will need a good feed ramp, i tried a 30-30 180 gr RN bullet in a AR 762x39 and it would not feed.
I agree, that is why my main bullet I use will be the Hornady 265 grain ftx.

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Old October 17, 2017, 07:02   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easttex View Post
That looks like an interesting development. The only thing is suggest is keeping the pressure down. Cartridges headspacing on the mouth don't like to push the pressure envelope much.

You might also look into adding a 444 Marlin factory crimp die into your reloading set. They're not too expensive, simple to operate, and easy to get a consistent crimp on each case. Plus they're made by Lee so they don't cost a fortune, either. It may help you hold a consistent headspace.
I am also toying with the idea of a slightly longer case, so more case to bullet contact area. I picked up both the lee factory crimp die and the Hornady taper crimp die. I will do a bullet setback test by feeding the same bullet 100 times. Then chrono both to see which works best.
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Old October 17, 2017, 07:43   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Better get your twist-rate and bullet selection nailed.

Otherwise, hello 6 MOA short-range gun.
And even at that, 6moa at house/urban distances isn't so bad.
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Old October 17, 2017, 10:25   #10
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I have a 1 in 18 barrel coming. Original 44 Marlin shipped with a 1 in 38 microgroove and it was too slow for heavy bullets. the current 1 in 20 Ballard cut barrel stabilizes most bullets. I went a bit faster for subsonic heavy bullets. If this is not fast enough, I can go down to a 1 in 14, 12 or 10.
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Old October 17, 2017, 21:06   #11
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The 35 Whelen, the .375 Whelen and the .40 Whelen were done long ago on the '06 case. Headspace was the problem with the .40 Whelen. PO Ackley wrote about them too.

Handloader/Rifle had a series of articles on the Whelens back in the 1980's

Dave Scoville of Rifle mag, developed a cartridge based upon the 9.3 x 62, and called it the 35 Scoville; he had a Winchester '95 rifle chambered in it.
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Old October 17, 2017, 21:34   #12
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The 35 Whelen, the .375 Whelen and the .40 Whelen were done long ago on the '06 case. Headspace was the problem with the .40 Whelen. PO Ackley wrote about them too.

Handloader/Rifle had a series of articles on the Whelens back in the 1980's

Dave Scoville of Rifle mag, developed a cartridge based upon the 9.3 x 62, and called it the 35 Scoville; he had a Winchester '95 rifle chambered in it.
Thanks, I did not know about the 9.3x62 in 40. The 40 Whelen had the issue of it being headspaced on the shoulder, but there was very little shoulder, I uriginally thought about the 40, or even 41 using the 284 case. But in the end I figured not enough shoulder. I saw the 45 raptor is headspaced on the case mouth and dcided to go that route. Time will tell if it works in a modern semi auto.
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Old October 17, 2017, 22:01   #13
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The 375 and 40 whelen headspaced on the case mouth.
The step was so slight that the extractor ended up holding the cartridge---kind of like firing a 308 in a '06 chamber--extractor holds the cartridge, but fireforms the 308 case into something else.

Your case looks a bit like a rimless 40-60 win cartridge.

Ever think about using a magnum case that headspaces on the magnum belt?

Shorten up a 404 or 416 mag case.....same bbl, just different reamer job with magnum belt cutter reamer. Browning BAR did it with 300 win mag. I do not think that Browning did it with 375 H&H, but I might be wrong.

The 9.3 x 62 is basically a .35 whelen with a .366 dia bullet... but the brass has more powder capacity.
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Old October 17, 2017, 23:01   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
The 375 and 40 whelen headspaced on the case mouth.
The step was so slight that the extractor ended up holding the cartridge---kind of like firing a 308 in a '06 chamber--extractor holds the cartridge, but fireforms the 308 case into something else.

Your case looks a bit like a rimless 40-60 win cartridge.

Ever think about using a magnum case that headspaces on the magnum belt?

Shorten up a 404 or 416 mag case.....same bbl, just different reamer job with magnum belt cutter reamer. Browning BAR did it with 300 win mag. I do not think that Browning did it with 375 H&H, but I might be wrong.

The 9.3 x 62 is basically a .35 whelen with a .366 dia bullet... but the brass has more powder capacity.
I think Elwarpo wants to use this in a large format AR. Belts don't feed so good from them. Keeping it on the 308 case keeps things simpler.

I have the 45 Raptor in a couple of guns including a Savage barrel waiting on a model 10. The only thing I don't like about the cartridge is it's lack of taper. I always thought they should have gone with the 284 parent case like the 450 Bushmaster and the .458 bore. Still, a 250 grain bullet at 2600 or so FPS is nothing to sneeze at.

Hornady makes a 265 gr. FTX made for the 444 Marlin, so that might be a good place to start.

For the 444, they list it at 2325 FPS out of a 24" barrel. If you could get it up around 21-2200 out of the 44-06ish caliber case and a 18-20" barrel, I think you would have a winner.

Something similar:

https://www.shootersforum.com/wildca...44-marlin.html
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Old October 18, 2017, 09:33   #15
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I think Elwarpo wants to use this in a large format AR. Belts don't feed so good from them. Keeping it on the 308 case keeps things simpler.

I have the 45 Raptor in a couple of guns including a Savage barrel waiting on a model 10. The only thing I don't like about the cartridge is it's lack of taper. I always thought they should have gone with the 284 parent case like the 450 Bushmaster and the .458 bore. Still, a 250 grain bullet at 2600 or so FPS is nothing to sneeze at.

Hornady makes a 265 gr. FTX made for the 444 Marlin, so that might be a good place to start.

For the 444, they list it at 2325 FPS out of a 24" barrel. If you could get it up around 21-2200 out of the 44-06ish caliber case and a 18-20" barrel, I think you would have a winner.

Something similar:

https://www.shootersforum.com/wildca...44-marlin.html
Actually that was my other thought, and next project, the rimless 45-70. The reason for the 444 over 45-70 is the 284 cases have issues feeding in some 308 mags since they stack differently. Using the same thought process, take commercially available dies, brass and load data and combine them. One project at a time. Also started work on a pistol version with an AR10. 10" barrel, faster twist and looking at 1000 fps with the 405 grain Beartooth bullet and using a magnum powder like 296/110. Pistol stabilizing brace and silencer, and you have a great home defense/entry gun. Once the paperwork clears I will turn it into a SBR.
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Old October 18, 2017, 10:26   #16
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Originally Posted by V guy View Post
The 375 and 40 whelen headspaced on the case mouth.
The step was so slight that the extractor ended up holding the cartridge---kind of like firing a 308 in a '06 chamber--extractor holds the cartridge, but fireforms the 308 case into something else.

Your case looks a bit like a rimless 40-60 win cartridge.

Ever think about using a magnum case that headspaces on the magnum belt?

Shorten up a 404 or 416 mag case.....same bbl, just different reamer job with magnum belt cutter reamer. Browning BAR did it with 300 win mag. I do not think that Browning did it with 375 H&H, but I might be wrong.

The 9.3 x 62 is basically a .35 whelen with a .366 dia bullet... but the brass has more powder capacity.
Unfortunately belted bullets have feed issues with mag fed semi autos (same as rimmed cases) especially if the cartridge overall length is on the shorter side of the spec. One rim/belt will bounce backwards over another and then you have a misfeed. The belts also get beaten up in the mags if you just top off a mag.
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Old October 18, 2017, 16:29   #17
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There is a magnum case out there without a belt and it has a 30-06 std rim diameter. It is an odd duck and I cannot remember what it is.

You can also turn the belt off of magnum cases and use a 458 Win mag straight walled case, cut off to the length you desire.....lots of wall strength.

Extractor will end up essentially holding it all in place against the bolt face, no matter what you end up with.

Sounds like wildcatting of old!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Whelen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_Whelen

I had another thought, since the 358 Winchester is based upon the 308, the ,375 in the 358 case, might give you better headspace dimensions. Downloading the 375 dia projectile to 1000fps, and there are a lot of them, might be an ez ticket to get to where you want to go.
A .375 ain't nothing to sneeze at.

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Old October 18, 2017, 20:00   #18
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If the case was cut to 1.8 inches or less,it would be a hit in the southern half of the state. Everybody seems to be pushing the 450 bushy down here. Not sure how much oompf you'd lose.
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Old October 19, 2017, 13:27   #19
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If the case was cut to 1.8 inches or less,it would be a hit in the southern half of the state. Everybody seems to be pushing the 450 bushy down here. Not sure how much oompf you'd lose.
That is my thought process for an AR15, however the shorter round will be too short for the AR10 mag, and will require specialized mags, feed ramps... more than I want to do. Time to send the reamer out on an AR15 barrel and see how that works.

What is interesting is the change in overall length going from 7.62 to 5.56 is almost the same as going from 2.225 (444 marlin) to 1.8".
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Old October 19, 2017, 18:54   #20
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I'm running a .44 mag CVA scout single shot as my main southern Michigan deer gun right now.... the .450 Bushy is very tempting. 2100FPS and 2700Flb energy...
In an AR design,I imagine the recoil probably isn't too bad. Especially with a brake.
Yours is a neat project.Keep on it,and keep us up to date on it. It'll be a real thumper.
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Old October 20, 2017, 08:30   #21
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Where are you at in MI RG? I am south of the D. If you ever want to meet up for a FAL shoot, let me know.
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Old October 20, 2017, 11:15   #22
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I'm about 90 miles or so north of Detroit,near Saginaw Bay. We sometimes do AKfiles shoots at "the Pit" just north of Lapeer a bit. One guy even comes up from Ohio for it. It's a decent enough place to shoot,though its public.
Last one was 10/12...so probably a couple months from now for the next.
Just checked the local funshop for .450 uppers,and he had three or four. $500-600 depending on options. Comes with a 5 rounder. It's damned tempting,and I'm not all that much of an AR fanboy,but dang,the thumpability of that sucker and the pretty flat trajectory makes it pretty tough to turn away from. It'd be pretty much at home from one end of the state to the other.
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Old October 21, 2017, 09:46   #23
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Thanks, let me know and I will bring out some toys
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