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Old May 13, 2018, 00:16   #1
Bawana jim
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Military wants new subgun

Full circle again.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...n-in-75-years/
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Old May 13, 2018, 02:24   #2
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Old May 13, 2018, 06:41   #3
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Why not a modern version of the M3 "Grease Gun"? Chambered in 9mm NATO of course. Use polymer for the frame and stamped out steel for the upper receiver.

But then the techno geeks will want to hang all kinds of electronic gizmo's on it and turn it into some kind of Star Wars looking thing. What ever happened to the idea of keeping military weapons simple and "soldier proof" anyway....

And so it goes.


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Old May 13, 2018, 08:19   #4
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Lots of good 9mm subguns out there. There is a lot of advantages of 9mm subguns for certain things as long as you stay within their operational limits. weight, suppression, oal, etc.
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Old May 13, 2018, 08:54   #5
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I think the military is bored.
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Old May 13, 2018, 08:56   #6
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I have a number of 9mm carbines...but I've never played with the SIG MPX. I would think that something like that might fit the bill given the similar ergonomics of the M4. Something like the size of the Rattler MCX in 9mm would be handy.
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Old May 13, 2018, 10:12   #7
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Join the rest of the world, issue mp5s for subgun use, save billions in development and procurement, be done.
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Old May 13, 2018, 10:26   #8
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Join the rest of the world, issue mp5s for subgun use, save billions in development and procurement, be done.
That is NOT the basis of this exercise, Citizen !







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Old May 13, 2018, 10:32   #9
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CZ Scorpion Evo 3.
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Old May 13, 2018, 11:22   #10
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In 9mm I am a big fan of the Swedish K, damn fine subgun with so many feed options. They handle better than most but shoot from the open bolt so I doubt they would go for it. I bet they use an AR platform and build a subgun on it. Guys at the club have done that and they run just awesome. Mag changes are super quick and you can mount any optics you want on them. 80% of the gun is about the magazine, hope they pick a good magazine to build around.
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Old May 13, 2018, 11:41   #11
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In 9mm I am a big fan of the Swedish K, damn fine subgun with so many feed options. They handle better than most but shoot from the open bolt so I doubt they would go for it. I bet they use an AR platform and build a subgun on it. Guys at the club have done that and they run just awesome. Mag changes are super quick and you can mount any optics you want on them. 80% of the gun is about the magazine, hope they pick a good magazine to build around.
Been saying for years,,Somebody needs to build an AR lower for Sterling mags,,,
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:00   #12
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I have several 9mm carbines anything from an AR to MPX and as bizarre as the Calico. The MPX is by far my favorite. accurate, easy to use and reliable.
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:04   #13
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Been saying for years,,Somebody needs to build an AR lower for Sterling mags,,,
The gents at the club use converted Uzi mags and the double feed design works real good. Every AR lower the military has could be converted easily to a gun that runs great. One fellow had mag changes down to a science. His empty mag bag was held open by framework and strapped to his body to catch the falling empty mag. He dropped the mag with the shooting hand while his other hand grabbed a fresh one. Fastest mag change I ever saw in 25 years of subguns.
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:25   #14
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Anything the military wants will be overpriced. Just reading on the marines H&K M27. Looks to me to be a modified M4 with 16.5" barrel and piston ... $3000. Ouch!
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:34   #15
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Seems odd to go for a subgun now, after all the change to plastic ammo. I suspect the subguns will be for handling civilians while the plastic ammo guns will be for war. Once the ammo change comes it's going to get interesting.
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Old May 14, 2018, 03:15   #16
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I have a dedicated lower in 9mm it’s a 16” and 10” pistol with a VM Hytec adapter that takes unmodified Uzi Mags. I like both of them but since they don’t require gas...the pistol fits nicely in a brief case for concealed transport.
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Old May 14, 2018, 04:20   #17
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Well,

Its definitely not a big deal as they pulled the Army's best small arms evaluators in the Next Gen Squad Automatic Weapon requirements development. Gonna be the genesis of new rds and new small arms for the whole squad.

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Old May 14, 2018, 04:30   #18
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That is NOT the basis of this exercise, Citizen !







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lol, exactly
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Old May 14, 2018, 10:08   #19
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One of my favorite subgun moments:



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Old May 14, 2018, 10:15   #20
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I thought you were going to link this movie scene. It's even better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zG_jt_CG3c
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Old May 14, 2018, 10:46   #21
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One of my favorite subgun moments:



Movies like to make the subguns run fast, grease gun fires 450 rnds per min. Sound was dubbed over.
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Old May 14, 2018, 13:20   #22
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There was a time that a "full-sized vehicle was the Crown Vic, or the Chevy Caprice. Now it's the Taurus and Malibu. I think the same applies to the pussification of those using firearms in combat. How the fug is a 5.56 major enough of a caliber that it falls outside "subgun" status? The M4 really isn't much bigger than an MP5. They already have the ammo. If they want it to be shorter still the Mk18 is already a thing, on a platform (yes it's a F'ing PLATFORM) that's already a thing, but somehow a 9mm will be more functional. WT actual F?

From Wiki (whatever that's worth). about the Mk18..

"The purpose of the CQBR remains to provide operators with a weapon of submachine gun size, but firing a rifle cartridge, for scenarios such as VIP protection, urban warfare, and other close quarters battle (CQB) situations. The CQBR is designed to provide improvement over previous AR-15/M16-type weapons in this category. The CQBR is usually issued as a complete weapon system, and not just an upper receiver."

But we need to pay for something else to be developed, apparently.
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Old May 14, 2018, 17:41   #23
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How the fug is a 5.56 major enough of a caliber that it falls outside "subgun" status? The M4 really isn't much bigger than an MP5. They already have the ammo. If they want it to be shorter still the Mk18 is already a thing, on a platform (yes it's a F'ing PLATFORM) that's already a thing, but somehow a 9mm will be more functional. WT actual F?
Chopping the barrel on the 5.56 diminishes its effectiveness. When it gets down to a concealable size, the bullets only poke simple holes....little ones.
They also don't transfer much momentum.
Short barreled rifle cartridges are also very flashy and, well.....abrupt.

So it becomes practical to change cartridges when the barrel length has to be less than 12 inches. There is some overlap but the strong argument for keeping the rifle cartridge is to simplify supply. It does not have much else going for it.

Of course if they want to simplify supply, they would continue to expand the AR-s capabilities to fill this role, which it could do very capably.
Don't assume that it would have to be a blowback upper. There are several designs for delayed blowback uppers that look very promising. Should run cleaner and softer.

Also staying with the AR would simplify training.....gee this sounds like the Soviet/AK doctrine.

No harm in asking if there is something better but when the requirements seem to be conflicting, one has to ask if the people requesting this stuff have any real experience....like at all.
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Old May 14, 2018, 18:14   #24
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Why dont they just do a 9in bbl version of the M4 in 300 AAC blackout? Far more effective than an mp5, and all parts are common to the standard issue rifle except the barrel.
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Old May 14, 2018, 18:39   #25
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Pistol calibers are effective against unarmored targets at close range, i.e. insurgents in urban environments.
However, the new weapon should be either Semi or Burst, not Full Auto.
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Old May 14, 2018, 19:31   #26
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Old May 14, 2018, 20:04   #27
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Too much plastic. It won't ass the drop test and grunts will break it too easy.
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Old May 15, 2018, 00:29   #28
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H&K doesn't make or support the MP-5 any longer.
The H&K UMP has a problem with the barrel support getting soft when the gun gets hot.
Most SMG's are of foreign make or design, the DoD prefers USA sourced weapons.
But their is the little know Ruger MP-9.
Maybe Ruger will take a look at that again, submit that gun for testing.

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Old May 15, 2018, 01:16   #29
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How about resurrecting the Clot DOE subgun? That should work, and could keep Clot in bidness for a few more years.
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Old May 15, 2018, 08:43   #30
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PPSh in 9mm with plastic stock.
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Old May 15, 2018, 08:55   #31
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No wait, teh TOmmy Gun.

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Old May 15, 2018, 11:58   #32
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subgun

I just do not see the need for subguns in the sandbox.
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Old May 15, 2018, 14:10   #33
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H&K doesn't make or support the MP-5 any longer.
The H&K UMP has a problem with the barrel support getting soft when the gun gets hot.
Most SMG's are of foreign make or design, the DoD prefers USA sourced weapons.
But their is the little know Ruger MP-9.
Maybe Ruger will take a look at that again, submit that gun for testing.

Richard
I got to shoot a Ruger subgun and it was like a modified Uzi, here is a picture of it..

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...gun&ajaxhist=0


The club had a Spring full auto shoot and a dealer let folks test it out. It wasn't any better than my Vector Uzi but was a bit lighter. I owned an H&K MP 5, like most of the guns it was converted to full auto. Tried it in the matches and it didn't work well for me, too much activity needed to change a mag and no bolt hold open sucked.

The M16 converted to a subgun was really easy to operate, run well, used great mags and you could dress it anyway you wanted with sights,suppressors and lights. They have a good platform to go from so I hope they pick something that runs good.
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Old May 15, 2018, 14:21   #34
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I just do not see the need for subguns in the sandbox.
My opinion is they originally designed subguns for trench fighting, close in work along with hand to hand. The guns were too big and heavy. The next generation was lighter but trench warfare was no longer in play and they put subguns in the wrong battle. They are a mission specific weapon but they used them out of their range.

At best they are crowd control weapons for herding unarmed folks. Something with lots of firepower but sub caliber.
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Old May 15, 2018, 16:03   #35
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Too bad FN's P90 didn't quite make the splash here in the US. It's a handy little PDW. It would have been easy for FN to add it to their orders to the US Military.
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Old May 16, 2018, 01:12   #36
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H&K doesn't make or support the MP-5 any longer.
.....last I checked they were still offering the MP5...

https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/prod.../overview.html

..
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Old May 16, 2018, 08:43   #37
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SMGs are used for house-to-house gun confiscation. Finicky ARs and shower guns can be overwhelmed with firepower at the point of contact.
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Old May 16, 2018, 16:10   #38
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Too bad FN's P90 didn't quite make the splash here in the US. It's a handy little PDW. It would have been easy for FN to add it to their orders to the US Military.
Secret Service bought a bunch couple decades ago. Last I heard (which was about 10 years ago) they were reduced to using one out of 3 as the other 2 were cannibalized for spares to keep the 3rd one running. Don't buy into the Stargate bullshit; they aren't military grade hardware.
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Old May 18, 2018, 08:23   #39
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How about an AR in 5.7x28 then? They are out there.
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Old May 18, 2018, 18:46   #40
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How about an AR in 5.7x28 then? They are out there.
The bullpup configuration and the reliable fifty round mags made the PS 90 a good vehicle but the round didn't fit it. It may have sold better in 9mm because the guys that used it in 5.7 really didn't understand it in my opinion. They seemed to think the round was an assault rifle round but it lacked the pent ration of one so once again they had something they could not put in the right role.

Nothing wrong with the gun and nothing wrong with the round but they didn't fit a mission together in my opinion.

I don't think the 5.7 in an AR platform really fits either. If I were to pick a good subgun platform for the 5.7 it would be converting FNs pistol into a full auto. It wouldn't take much and it would fit the subgun catagory real well.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...F4&FORM=IQFRBA



Gun would fit in a holster so easy to carry, add a little flip down front grip and maybe a wire folding stock that unfolds. You could mount anything on it and with a fire rate reducer to 600rpm it would be very interesting. Napoleon Solo would love to have this set up.
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Old May 21, 2018, 13:52   #41
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My opinion is they originally designed subguns for trench fighting, close in work along with hand to hand. The guns were too big and heavy. The next generation was lighter but trench warfare was no longer in play and they put subguns in the wrong battle. They are a mission specific weapon but they used them out of their range.

At best they are crowd control weapons for herding unarmed folks. Something with lots of firepower but sub caliber.
Israel did OK in the Six Day War and a great many of their infantry were equipped with Uzi's. Yes, they also had that other rifle, what was it called...oh yeah FAL's but a lot of their guys carried just Uzi's. Specifically the battles for Mount Scopus and Ammunition Hill appears to show the Israeli units all using Uzi's in the footage and photographs that I have seen.
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Old May 21, 2018, 14:20   #42
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Israel did OK in the Six Day War and a great many of their infantry were equipped with Uzi's. Yes, they also had that other rifle, what was it called...oh yeah FAL's but a lot of their guys carried just Uzi's. Specifically the battles for Mount Scopus and Ammunition Hill appears to show the Israeli units all using Uzi's in the footage and photographs that I have seen.
Subguns were built for trench warfare to begin with but they shine in close up fights before body armour. The Uzi is a fine second generation gun and fits well into unarmoured door to door conflict. Pistol rounds have less muzzle blast, in Israel you don't need penetrate on because even the big guns don't make it through walls of stone. Full size Uzi is way too heavy for the power it has in 9mm and later generations of the Uzi corrected that

Combat in the USA with stick built houses the gun needs good penetration in my opinion. Should be small and handy enough to wear on your belt, about 650 rpm and reliable as can be. Odds are its for control of unarmoured civilians so with that in mind accuracy should be better than an open bolt produces.
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Old May 21, 2018, 14:30   #43
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650 rpm in full auto is chuggish. Which is about what the uzi ROF is.

800 fps is a lot smoother and easy to handle and more similar to the MP5 ROF.

The video below is about 800 rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnNKeCCTh0
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Old May 21, 2018, 15:17   #44
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650 rpm in full auto is chuggish. Which is about what the uzi ROF is.

800 fps is a lot smoother and easy to handle and more similar to the MP5 ROF.

The video below is about 800 rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnNKeCCTh0
I formed my opinion shooting subgun matches for about twenty years. 800 is good for a talented operator but Joe average can't think that fast. Given it will be a military gun and the amount of ammo they will have to carry plus the time it takes to get on target I just opined the 650 would be best.

I am not a skilled operator but have seen guys do amazing shooting with faster guns. About 750rpm used to be my skill level and I didn't win a lot of matches. The other guys were just too good to beat even when I cleaned the course of fire. Thinking next target with a bullet hose in your hand pumps the adrenaline fast, some of those stone cold shooters never had the feeling. They beat you every time.

Edited to add, if I was training the guys in the military they would shoot matches with no practice. They would learn by hardship and the instruction would leave a lasting impression. I am evil like that with subguns, no spray and pray here just hit it and move on.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:26   #45
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Before there was the FN P90, there was the Hill SMG in 9mm. Always thought the concept was an interesting idea for a very compact SMG:



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Old May 23, 2018, 10:00   #46
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I was thinking more on the lines of a machine pistol. Beretta made one.


https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...stol&FORM=IGRE


So did Glock

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ol&FORM=IRIBEP

I am thinking gun should only allow full auto when the stock is extended.
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Old May 23, 2018, 13:06   #47
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bring back the Mac-10
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Old June 12, 2018, 05:42   #48
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Looks like the have the contestants lined up:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...eapon-program/

It seems the RFI garnered plenty of interest and the US Army is set to evaluate no less than 10 potential SCWs. The US Army’s Contracting Command intends to award sole source contracts to the following:

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0034
Awardee: Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC for CM9MM-9H-M5A, Colt Modular 9mm Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $22,000.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0037
Awardee: Beretta USA Corporation for Beretta PMX Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $16,000.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0038
Awardee: CMMG, Inc. for CMMG Ultra PDW Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $8,500.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0039
Awardee: CZ-USA for CZ Scorpion EVO 3 A1 Submachine gun
Amount: $14,490.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0040
Awardee: Lewis Machine & Tool Company for MARS-L9 Compact Suppressed Weapon
Amount: $21,900.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0041
Awardee: PTR Industries, Inc. for PTR 9CS Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $12,060.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0042
Awardee: Quarter Circle 10 LLC 5.5 CLT and 5.5 QV5 Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $24,070.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0043
Awardee: SIG SAUER, Inc. for SIG SAUER MPX Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $20,160.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0044
Awardee: Trident Rifles, LLC for B&T MP9 Machine Guns
Amount: $36,000.00

Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0045
Awardee: Zenith Firearms for Z-5RS, Z-5P and Z-5K Sub Compact Weapons
Amount: $39,060.00
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Old June 12, 2018, 12:25   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D P Six View Post
Anything the military wants will be overpriced. Just reading on the marines H&K M27. Looks to me to be a modified M4 with 16.5" barrel and piston ... $3000. Ouch!
You ain't kidding.

Right before I got out, we gave up our M239 SAW's with it's 200 round drum for a full-auto M16 with a ton of extra magazines to keep track of... and pass around as needed.

I never understood the logic.
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