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Old April 14, 2019, 09:08   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Carpentieri View Post
Their are four that I know of that are transferable that were in private possession. They are listed as Transferable machine guns. This one on GB is also listed as a NFA weapon, But if the Gun shop that is in possession of it Doesn't have a FFL/Sot-3 license with the Transfer form on a Form 3 to transfer to a Form 4 to the buyer,Then they will be in for a shit storm with BATFE. Just because they have a R marked semi-auto selector, That doesn't mean shit, There still Full-auto receivers with full-auto trigger plungers. The only thing there missing is the safety sear and spring and a full-auto selector lever.If you blow the picture up on the one on GB, You'll see a dark space just behind the hinge pin on the left side of the upper receiver and that's were the safety sear and spring goes and if the spring isn't installed correctly, The weapon won't engage the safety sear correctly.
To me it appears obvious that the selector switch has left a mark on the pistol grip and that would have had to happen while the pin preventing full auto was not present.
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Old April 14, 2019, 09:10   #52
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Added to the description this morning:


"The model below is SEMI-AUTOMATIC rifle"

Sorry 4markk, didn't see your post (50) in time.
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Old April 14, 2019, 09:19   #53
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According to Stevens' book The Metric Fal, pg 162,

"... of the total 1954 US order of 3,303 rifles, fully 2,270 were the FAL 'Canada' light rifle type. Only 833 were made in the bona fide T48 configuration: the final 200 were heavy-barrel T48E1s."

I could not corroborate the Cruffler quote above about semi only rifles. The book does talk about the first 100, 70 being T48 config, the remaining 30 the E1s.

This is a rare beyond rare beast. An original FN made rifle, one of 833, not a later US made version. I will not speculate on how any gov't entity may rate, react, feel, or rule over this rifle as it seems there's no precedence for this particular animal. I will say that if I had money to burn, I'd own that rifle until the day I die, at which point it would be donated to a museum.
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Old April 14, 2019, 09:20   #54
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Originally Posted by auggiedoggie View Post
To me it appears obvious that the selector switch has left a mark on the pistol grip and that would have had to happen while the pin preventing full auto was not present.
Or the selector was swapped.
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Old April 14, 2019, 09:29   #55
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Or the selector was swapped.
If that's the case, wouldn't it be an illegal firearm?
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Old April 14, 2019, 10:52   #56
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No it is not. It is listed as Semi-automatic, which is the original designation.

I can't tell whether is a semi-only trigger plunger. Which would be irrelevant if it was designated by DoD to be semi-only in that configuration (that would be an "Official" designation).

As for the designation of the actual receiver, it is "undefined" unless you can find case law or ruling on the T48 receiver itself. There may be T48's that are registered, but that applies only to those specific T48's in their defined configurations.
I believe the devil is in the details here. Specifically, if those 3,103 T48's which were previously referenced were considered to be in a semi-auto configuration by virtue of the installation of only the semi-automatic change lever and the rifle was manufactured with full-automatic capability I could see that being a potential problem. As previously stated, a potential buyer would be wise to request more specific details from the seller to validate that the rifle is classified as a title 1 firearm or excluded from the NFA rather than simply accepting a broad unsupported statement that is is a semi-automatic before spending the kind of coin being asked here.

By way of comparison, a naďve and unknowledgeable, but well intended, seller could theoretically post a M16A1 for sale as a semi-auto firearm after simply replacing the full-auto selector with a semi-auto one. That, however, would not alter the attributes of the weapon or the fact that it was originally manufactured to be capable of full-automatic fire and so subject to the provisions of the NFA.

Then there is also the fact that the T48 was previously identified by he BATFE by name as being subject to the NFA. As stated before by myself and others the documented provenance for this rifle would be extremely helpful in clearing up any ambiguity.

Perhaps a member here more knowledgeable of navigating the NFA could offer further additional insight.

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Old April 14, 2019, 11:57   #57
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Posting the link below for reference. The most excellent photo-study of the Quantico T48 rifles courtesy of members Pat Jones (deceased) and Ben Grant (Legendary KC-130 Driver)


https://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254976
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:05   #58
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Posting the link below for reference. The most excellent photo-study of the Quantico T48 rifles courtesy of members Pat Jones (deceased) and Ben Grant (Legendary KC-130 Driver)


https://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254976
Hmmmm....


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Old April 14, 2019, 12:30   #59
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Hmmmm....


Interesting. "R" selector, with no tracks on the pistol grip and a cutout in the "A" stock for the takedown lever. Oops that may be a "B" stock.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:30   #60
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Additional link for reference. This one is from a 2014 James A. Julia auction for an H&R T48 (SN: 4478). From the auction listing: ''PROVENANCE: The class III weapons formerly on loan to Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum. The winning bid was at $32,200 excluding the Buyers Premium.

https://www.morphyauctions.com/james...item/1070-369/
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:39   #61
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Interesting. "R" selector, with no tracks on the pistol grip and a cutout in the "A" stock for the takedown lever. Oops that may be a "B" stock.
The lower receiver has a slightly different patina than the T48 upper receiver. Slight mark on the pistol grip from a full auto selector switch (number 5 photo on GB) but no telltale mark by the letter A detent. Gotta pick it to death to make sure

Last edited by JM; April 14, 2019 at 12:44.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:41   #62
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Interesting. "R" selector, with no tracks on the pistol grip and a cutout in the "A" stock for the takedown lever. Oops that may be a "B" stock.
Its a type A stock.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:48   #63
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To me it appears obvious that the selector switch has left a mark on the pistol grip and that would have had to happen while the pin preventing full auto was not present.
That pin is always there. If you take it out the trigger falls out.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:52   #64
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Been sitting at $10,050 since yesterday- wonder how high it will get. Watching this one closely.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:52   #65
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That pin is always there. If you take it out the trigger falls out.
The stop pin for the selector beak? That pin has nothing to do with the trigger pin.
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Old April 14, 2019, 12:55   #66
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From page 39 of the CAL Rifle by Blake Stevens:

"As a result of the successful Fort Benning test, in the fall of 1953, the U SDepartment of the Army purchased 3,303 FN FAL Rifles"

"These FN Rifles were supplied in two forms. The basic T48's, 3,103 in number, were capable of semi-automatic fire only."
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Old April 14, 2019, 13:01   #67
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Different left side magwell on the Quantico gun. The GB one is more like the heavy barrel next to it.
The Morphys gun is a later harington and richardson made rifle....200 or so made for production / troop trials. The gun in the auction at hand is a very early FN made trials rifle made, I think, for a board of officers evaluation. Its a bit rarer to see one of these come up.

scroll further down in the Quantico link....past the HB...looks to me like the color diferential between upper and lower is there too. Different heat treat?

LV or Reed Knight will snag this one.
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Old April 14, 2019, 13:05   #68
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The stop pin for the selector beak? That pin has nothing to do with the trigger pin.
I should just go back to the inch rifle forums.
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Old April 14, 2019, 13:50   #69
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in reference to KIT the bureau once raided the NRA museum in DC. One of a number of guns seized was a deactivated HR T48 back in the 70s
major stink fest at the time but it was an unregistered dewat MG

Status on this one ?
If it shipped semi fair chance it could become exempt. That should have been done while prior to auction

I would not put money on it, well maybe if I was a Senator.

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Just a mess of losers online ferreting questionable things out online these days Dry Snitching on web forums
ATFE don't really need to search auctions, etc
Guys here do it all for them
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Old April 14, 2019, 14:25   #70
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Wow, what an interesting rifle and thread...will be watching both

Last edited by rarecat; April 14, 2019 at 14:34.
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Old April 14, 2019, 16:02   #71
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I wonder if paco has one of these?
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Old April 14, 2019, 16:13   #72
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I wonder if paco has one of these?
as rare as they are in America they are mostly unknown in Europe as an American contract.
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Old April 14, 2019, 19:52   #73
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MAYBE it could be saved, were any FN T48s shipped stateside in semi configuration ?.
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I don't think this is a Class 1 firearm, and I don't think the selector switch on this example is original to the rifle.
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There were several versions out there at the time. You can search the Springfield Armory Museum archives online and see them all. The army/government would have ordered several different configurations, I think they ordered hundreds of them on top of the hundreds.or thousands that were made.stateside. The question is the provenance behind this one that it ended up in private hands. Who knows.. an importer, a government official, a ranking military member? It was probably the wild west at the time.
T48 rifles were ordered from FN for trials in 1954, for this contract, the light barreled versions were fitted with selectors that only went between safe and semi, only the heavy barreled T48E1s were full auto capable.

There is a report on the the test of two of these rifles which can be found under AD111246 "A Test of Rifles, Caliber .30, T48 and T48E1 Manufactured by FN (October 1955), which specifically notes that the T48 versions were semi-auto only by changes to the selector lever an trigger spring plunger.

The two T48s tested were Serial Numbers 24 and 905.

Pity he blocked out the serial number, we could have have providence right there.

And, the pictures in the report match the GB listing, except the one on GB is missing the forward sling swivel, which would be in the hole at the diameter reduction in the forewood.

Last edited by lysanderxiii; April 14, 2019 at 20:10.
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Old April 14, 2019, 20:19   #74
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T48 rifles were ordered from FN for trials in 1954, for this contract, the light barreled versions were fitted with selectors that only went between safe and semi, only the heavy barreled T48E1s were full auto capable.

There is a report on the the test of two of these rifles which can be found under AD111246 "A Test of Rifles, Caliber .30, T48 and T48E1 Manufactured by FN (October 1955), which specifically notes that the T48 versions were semi-auto only by changes to the selector lever an trigger spring plunger.
Interesting additional data-points. There is a very significant distinction between what the US military considered a full-auto capable T48 and what the BATFE would consider full-auto capable rifle relative to the NFA. In many instances the full-auto changer lever would simply be replaced by the ‘R’ marked semi-auto change lever to satisfy semi-automatic only capability from a military perspective. The FAL could easily be restored to full-auto capability by reinstalling the full-auto change lever. However I would question if that single distinction would not be enough to satisfy the BATFE definition of semi-automatic only capability.
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Old April 14, 2019, 21:09   #75
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However I would question if that single distinction would not be enough to satisfy the BATFE definition of semi-automatic only capability.
When one looks at the butchery the ATF mandated on the HK types to be considered "not a machine gun", I highly doubt it.
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Old April 14, 2019, 21:29   #76
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Interesting additional data-points. There is a very significant distinction between what the US military considered a full-auto capable T48 and what the BATFE would consider full-auto capable rifle relative to the NFA. In many instances the full-auto changer lever would simply be replaced by the ‘R’ marked semi-auto change lever to satisfy semi-automatic only capability from a military perspective. The FAL could easily be restored to full-auto capability by reinstalling the full-auto change lever. However I would question if that single distinction would not be enough to satisfy the BATFE definition of semi-automatic only capability.
It is a very interesting case. If a Federal Government Agency/Department officially designated it as semi-only would hold great weight in court. The official test results would support that.

Then it falls to readily convertible, there is case law regarding FALs that are very favorable to the rifle. Its status as a very rare firearm further helps.

This is not a slamdunk case. But it is not for the faint of heart.
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Old April 14, 2019, 22:00   #77
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Old April 14, 2019, 23:43   #78
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Interesting additional data-points. There is a very significant distinction between what the US military considered a full-auto capable T48 and what the BATFE would consider full-auto capable rifle relative to the NFA. In many instances the full-auto changer lever would simply be replaced by the ‘R’ marked semi-auto change lever to satisfy semi-automatic only capability from a military perspective. The FAL could easily be restored to full-auto capability by reinstalling the full-auto change lever. However I would question if that single distinction would not be enough to satisfy the BATFE definition of semi-automatic only capability.
Verging outside FAL faggotry [Sorry Arby you Poofter] you have the HK series of 41's ? imported in the 60s with full swing down lowers. Basically MG recievers.

In the 50s/60s the bureau had a very different view of many things and thus retarded to debate what treasury vs DoD viewed things at time of introduction

H&R Reising M50 vs the semi only M60 for example
just swap out parts

Johnson 41's were similarly converted to LMGs with little work

I won't even get into M1 Carbines vs M2s

bureau started getting foolish years ago over the Colt 1927 but that was over barrel length making it a SBR. It was later decided it was a MG
see how stupid this gets KIT ?
it's quite arbitrary really...

If I was Senator Schumer or Bernie' I might buy this
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Old April 15, 2019, 00:31   #79
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It has been on the fun setting a few times. You can just see a score line on the grip
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Old April 15, 2019, 03:45   #80
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Looks like it's been shot some from the bolt face, yet I don't really see any brass kisses, so I think somebody must have done the Ghillie mod.
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Old April 15, 2019, 03:52   #81
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as rare as they are in America they are mostly unknown in Europe as an American contract.
Correct, never seen one here for sale as they were made only for trials&Export.

But, on the other hand, we got plenty (and more as i can pay) selective firing, unaltered original FAL's around here so no stress

I have to admit, it looks great those T48's.


one day...

I got 4 more FAL's to go in the next 3 months. I need to win the lottery or so.

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Old April 15, 2019, 04:00   #82
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Also, i spotted this one some time ago, interesting since it has Belgian Army stamps...











Don't mind the picture quality but it took'm on the rush and inside...

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Old April 15, 2019, 07:31   #83
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Fly Guy has a far more cost effective solution for you DREAMers

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/809031408
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Old April 15, 2019, 11:15   #84
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My noting the report was not to address anything other than that the pictured configuration agrees with the configuration as tested in 1954-55, nothing more, and most certainly not what the ATF does or does not consider a "machine gun".

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Fly Guy has a far more cost effective solution for you DREAMers

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/809031408
That unfortunately does not address the distinctive T48 receiver with the two cartridge guide pins, the forward assist charging handle (H&R and HS only), the mid-fore wood sling swivel, or the milled stripper clip guide cover . . .

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Old April 15, 2019, 11:45   #85
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My noting the report was not to address anything other than that the pictured configuration agrees with the configuration as tested in 1954-55, nothing more, and most certainly not what the ATF does or does not consider a "machine gun".


That unfortunately does not address the distinctive T48 receiver with the two cartridge guide pins, the forward assist charging handle (H&R and HS only), the mid-fore wood sling swivel, or the milled stripper clip guide cover . . .

I have Dr. Shock doing the mod to my receiver.... and mountain man did some nice charging handle repos.

Here's some pictures of one that somebody else did a few years ago , they did a beautiful job on it.













https://www.gunbroker.com/item/809192147
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Old April 16, 2019, 14:15   #86
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I have Dr. Shock doing the mod to my receiver.... and mountain man did some nice charging handle repos.

Here's some pictures of one that somebody else did a few years ago , they did a beautiful job on it.













https://www.gunbroker.com/item/809192147
Dr. Shock can do the nipple mod? I know who is going to build my clone!
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Old April 16, 2019, 16:15   #87
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My noting the report was not to address anything other than that the pictured configuration agrees with the configuration as tested in 1954-55, nothing more, and most certainly not what the ATF does or does not consider a "machine gun".

Exactly true and so

I accept I am brutal when commenting on these things
truth is though nobody knows until they ask the bureau
almost always devolves into a crap fest
most recently I was called out as an ATFE informant for simply suggesting folks try to work within the laws to have rare arms exempted.
I frankly don't get the insanity this often seems to bring up.

Selector marks are meaningless really
bunch of ways guns can get them
heck even the bureau don't generally use them as sole evidence of past misdeeds

Myself ?
I'd like these things saved for posterity.
not cut up or sitting in the bureau's reference collection
20K+ rifles are about zero problem
Honestly neither are 1K+ pistols unless stolen
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Old April 16, 2019, 17:40   #88
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Verging outside FAL faggotry [Sorry Arby you Poofter] you have the HK series of 41's ? imported in the 60s with full swing down lowers. Basically MG recievers.

In the 50s/60s the bureau had a very different view of many things and thus retarded to debate what treasury vs DoD viewed things at time of introduction

H&R Reising M50 vs the semi only M60 for example
just swap out parts

Johnson 41's were similarly converted to LMGs with little work

I won't even get into M1 Carbines vs M2s

bureau started getting foolish years ago over the Colt 1927 but that was over barrel length making it a SBR. It was later decided it was a MG
see how stupid this gets KIT ?
it's quite arbitrary really...
Not sure what all the above has to do with this case. Other than the media propaganda of demonizing guns is working.

As far as precedence, it sure as hell matters. Especially precedence on point. So, I'm not sure what law school that you went to think that it is "retarded to debate".

Although DoD has no authority over the DoJ, an official finding by the federal government has great bearing on a case against the federal government. And the courts do have authority over the DoJ.

What is "retarded to debate" is any other platform or ruling that has no association with the rifle at hand.

Also, I attempted to find information on the case you mentioned about the NRA Museum being raided in the 70's and couldn't find anything. Please cite your source. You aren't thinking about the Kenyon Ballew raid, are you????
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:16   #89
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Not sure what all the above has to do with this case. Other than the media propaganda of demonizing guns is working.

As far as precedence, it sure as hell matters. Especially precedence on point. So, I'm not sure what law school that you went to think that it is "retarded to debate".

Although DoD has no authority over the DoJ, an official finding by the federal government has great bearing on a case against the federal government. And the courts do have authority over the DoJ.

What is "retarded to debate" is any other platform or ruling that has no association with the rifle at hand.

Also, I attempted to find information on the case you mentioned about the NRA Museum being raided in the 70's and couldn't find anything. Please cite your source. You aren't thinking about the Kenyon Ballew raid, are you????
unless you achieve a SCOTUS verdict it only applies within that Federal jurisdiction
so yeah a 2nd Circuit ruling don't apply to the 7th Circuit.
this is real basic Constitutional law

Nope not Keyon, way different deal
BMore piggies pressed that one over a couple dummy hand grenades somebody saw on a shelf
total shit show

This one was over couple DEWATs in the NRA museum
treasury made a huge stink in the early 70s
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:24   #90
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unless you achieve a SCOTUS verdict it only applies within that Federal jurisdiction
so yeah a 2nd Circuit ruling don't apply to the 7th Circuit.
this is real basic Constitutional law
Not sure what you are referring to here. Are you referring to binding precedence? Then yes a SCOTUS ruling is binding on all courts in the land. But has nothing to do with using precedence on point from other courts (including foreign) in deciding a case. A ruling against the federal government in a federal court is binding on the federal government. It doesn't have to go to SCOTUS. That is just basic LAW.

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This one was over couple DEWATs in the NRA museum
treasury made a huge stink in the early 70s
Again I cannot find anything referring to a raid on the NRA. Was it the Nixon or Ford administration?
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:39   #91
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Not sure what you are referring to here. Are you referring to binding precedence? Then yes a SCOTUS ruling is binding on all courts in the land. But has nothing to do with using precedence on point from other courts (including foreign) in deciding a case. A ruling against the federal government in a federal court is binding on the federal government. It doesn't have to go to SCOTUS. That is just basic LAW.



Again I cannot find anything referring to a raid on the NRA. Was it the Nixon or Ford administration?
Certain it was good ole' law and odor Nixon.
It was written up in the American Rifleman during the period.
I can't find a thing online either.

as far as your legal arguments
well no, that isn't how it works friend

The opinion of a 9th circuit court for example has nada binding elsewhere outside their jurisdiction territory.
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Old April 16, 2019, 18:47   #92
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as far as your legal arguments
well no, that isn't how it works friend

The opinion of a 9th circuit court for example has nada binding elsewhere outside their jurisdiction territory.
That's exactly what I said, "friend"
The key word being "binding". Precedence doesn't have to be "binding" to be used. That my "friend" is exactly how it works. You deserve a refund from your law school.

I have access to a lot of information and cannot find anything about a raid at the NRA. I might not be searching on the correct terms. You say it was dealing with unregistered DEWATs?
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Old April 16, 2019, 19:20   #93
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That's exactly what I said, "friend"
The key word being "binding". Precedence doesn't have to be "binding" to be used. That my "friend" is exactly how it works. You deserve a refund from your law school.

I have access to a lot of information and cannot find anything about a raid at the NRA. I might not be searching on the correct terms. You say it was dealing with unregistered DEWATs?
Sarcasm noted

Yeah DEWATS
some items were donated by DoD
one was a H&R Trials T48, my memory is a bit dim but seem to recall that one was donated by Aberdeen in the 60s
I'll dig through period issues when I get a chance. This was prior to the infamous Bellew incident.

Deal was the NRA museum never registered up their guns
DC and BMore piggies were big on this
the raid on Kenyon was supposed to be a big media event, instead LE shit their panties

the legal speak end ?

Few courts in the 8th Circuit adopt 9th Circuit opinions
they have as much authority here as a Tribal Court in Figi
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Old April 16, 2019, 20:30   #94
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Yeah DEWATS
some items were donated by DoD
one was a H&R Trials T48, my memory is a bit dim but seem to recall that one was donated by Aberdeen in the 60s
I'll dig through period issues when I get a chance. This was prior to the infamous Bellew incident.

Deal was the NRA museum never registered up their guns
DC and BMore piggies were big on this
the raid on Kenyon was supposed to be a big media event, instead LE shit their panties
I'll see what I can find out.

Yeah the ATF and the local cops screwed the pooch on the Ballew raid. Ballew's lawsuit was another travesty of justice. By the way it was Montgomery and PG County cops, not Baltimore.

Here is the case ruling:
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bard...allew_v_us.txt

NOTE: You will see precedence from several courts cited.

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Few courts in the 8th Circuit adopt 9th Circuit opinions
they have as much authority here as a Tribal Court in Figi
Again, "authority" isn't the correct term. All the courts review rulings from other courts. It is the lawyers on each side's job to cite such precedence. All on point is relevant whether the judge accepts it or not.
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Old April 16, 2019, 20:43   #95
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I'll see what I can find out.

Yeah the ATF and the local cops screwed the pooch on the Ballew raid. Ballew's lawsuit was another travesty of justice. By the way it was Montgomery and PG County cops, not Baltimore.

Here is the case ruling:
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bard...allew_v_us.txt

NOTE: You will see precedence from several courts cited.



Again, "authority" isn't the correct term. All the courts review rulings from other courts. It is the lawyers on each side's job to cite such precedence. All on point is relevant whether the judge accepts it or not.
Well, that's actually why we have SCOTUS
they are there to settle debates between Federal & State jurisdictions
sure, you can use another Circuits opinion as a cite, you can also try to apply Jungle law in Bora Bora or deepest darkest Afrika too as somehow relevant before the Court
Just as well cite Sharia code well you are at it

look into the NRA museum fiasco
It was real early on. I'll try to get on here on my end.
don't seem to be online at all but that's actually common. Plenty of events simply are not part of this echo chamber.
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Old April 17, 2019, 06:33   #96
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$10,050.00 didn't get it either.

I bet the reserve is $25k.



Nope. $25K is the bid this morning and reserve still not met.
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Old April 17, 2019, 07:18   #97
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$25k and still not acceptable for minimum sale price.....Power Ball drawing tonight......got a ticket in my pocket....c'mon Lady Luck.
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Old April 17, 2019, 07:44   #98
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The high bidder currently is lvickers7. Deep pockets I guess.
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heavily armed, easily pissed.
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Old April 17, 2019, 07:48   #99
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The high bidder currently is lvickers7. Deep pockets I guess.
Yes, $25,000 and reserve still not met
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Old April 17, 2019, 07:51   #100
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The high bidder currently is lvickers7.
Damn bro. Your post at first glance scared the crap out of me!

Thankfully I mis-read it and did not drink that much last night.
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