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Old July 19, 2019, 20:15   #51
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OES i truly hate you & your countrymen are going thru this.
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Old July 19, 2019, 20:18   #52
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Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ View Post
So what if the rifle is registered? I wouldn't turn over anything.
I guess that's the position many have taken here in N.Z most think the Gun-Ban wont work only getting 60% compliance
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Old July 19, 2019, 20:19   #53
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as far as im aware all semi-auto Centre Fire Rifles and Parts (military & sporting) are now considered PROHIBITED !

only a select few numbering in the hundreds will be allowed to keep their Rifles for Pest Control work i.e Helicopter Hunting (under strict conditions)

Yes a few Arms Officers have allowed a few semi-auto Rifles to be transferred over to C-Category (Collectors endorsement) but must prove the Firearm has real collector value

you can also apply for a Prohibited Endorsement to keep your semi-auto Rifle if your a reenactor i.e. L1A1 for Vietnam Reenactment or as a Collector but again we are talking limited to hundreds not thousands with strict criteria involved, its obviously designed to deter people from applying for exemption
About what I suspected...like an L1A1 is okay if you have a collecting interest in Vietnam etc., but not something like a civvie AR15.

Outrageous situation all the same.
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Old July 19, 2019, 20:21   #54
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according to the New Laws any part that can be used on a now "prohibited" firearm are also prohibited
Reading that, I want to thank you for those SLR furniture parts I bought from you a few Christmases ago, I have put them to good use.
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Old July 19, 2019, 20:48   #55
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No option to weld the gas port and make it a bolt action as in England?
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Old July 19, 2019, 21:27   #56
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Strip the parts and just give them the receiver.
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Old July 19, 2019, 21:58   #57
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Very sad situation in NZ. Makes one revere the Constitution that protects our citizenry from the tyranny of the masses. Pure democracy is a dangerous thing. A constitution slows things down appreciably allowing for hot-headed impulses to cool, and calmer heads to prevail.
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Old July 19, 2019, 22:04   #58
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Very sad situation in NZ. Makes one revere the Constitution that protects our citizenry from the tyranny of the masses. Pure democracy is a dangerous thing. A constitution slows things down appreciably allowing for hot-headed impulses to cool, and calmer heads to prevail.
As I've told people more than once, our government was made inefficient and redundant for a reason.
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Old July 20, 2019, 00:04   #59
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Very sad situation in NZ. Makes one revere the Constitution that protects our citizenry from the tyranny of the masses. Pure democracy is a dangerous thing. A constitution slows things down appreciably allowing for hot-headed impulses to cool, and calmer heads to prevail.


Yep. Exactly.
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Old July 20, 2019, 00:08   #60
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according to the New Laws any part that can be used on a now "prohibited" firearm are also prohibited

you get paid less for the parts better to surrender a complete Rifle where possible, currently they aren't paying for FAL/L1A1 Receivers or gas system ? only Listed Bolt, carrier, Barrel, stock, Trigger
AR15 & AK type Rifles have a slightly more comprehensive parts list ! yet they don't currently list AR15 Lower
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Strip the parts and just give them the receiver.
Denny
.....did you read the rest of the thread ?
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Old July 20, 2019, 02:00   #61
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Originally Posted by def90 View Post
No option to weld the gas port and make it a bolt action as in England?
the Anti-Gun groups say that they are too easily converted back to semi-auto
but things are still up in the Air at the moment, the troy pump action AR looking thing is currently being decided after the NZ Police initially said yes approved for Import (total cluster f**k)
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Old July 20, 2019, 05:15   #62
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Originally Posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle View Post
None. Waco and Ruby Ridge proved to me that Americans no longer possess the determination to live free and the be the masters of their government. Nothing that has happened since has caused me to reconsider my conclusion.

It would seem that New Zealanders are similarity afflicted. I pass no judgement upon anyone facing that decision. Every man must assess for himself what action he will take and he alone will absorb the consequences.
HBR: Those were isolated incidents conducted by BATFE and the FBI which caused little national concern in regards to firearms seizures . A national firearms ban and confisciation would be a much different story among gunowners and powerful lobby's such as the NRA and others whom would likely organize quickly to resist confisciation in the courts.

I understand most of us do not trust politicians in general and there is now one party we do not wish to control the presidency and both houses of congress. That will surely be the tipping point.
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Old July 20, 2019, 05:50   #63
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Respectfully to you OES, they shouldn’t be surrendered or disappear. They should be organized & marched in protest, ready for play, for all the world to see how Free people refuse tyranny. NZers had (have) a chance to shine and change the course of your own futures, marking world history in the name of Liberty as you go. I hope you fine folks reconsider your collective destiny as countrymen.

But you got paid better for turning them in. What is the going rate for freedom down there these days?
This is not directed at you, not looking for a fight. Just feel the guy deserves a little defense from being politely called a coward.

A lot of people here discuss civil war but do nothing. Nobody wants to leave the comforts of their air conditioned room when "surviving" is good enough. Nobody wants to jeopardize everything they've worked for their entire lives for bad odds. But it sure is easy to tell others to do so.

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Originally Posted by Southern 7.62 View Post
Wow. I am unsure of what type of Gun Rights Lobby you guys have in NZ, if any. One would hope that an event such as this would be a serious wake up call to what firearm(s) freedoms that you still have left, and ways to ensure no further confiscations. What a shame. Thanks for sharing your story here.
Must be the NRA..

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I also understand this is the main difference between the US constitution and others: the Amendments are not rights granted by the government, which is why the 2nd stands as a sore thumb to certain groups. Things the .gov grant are things the .gov can take away.

Would you have by any chance the note where they said "don't worry"? It might be useful here.
Our Gov uses the 2A as toilet paper, so we are not such a shining example.
Suppressors, SBRs, Compliance parts and barrel bans, no select fire except for the wealthy due to restrictions they've created. Mag limits, can't open carry some places. You must pay the kings man for a piece of paper to conceal carry. And quite honestly stripping ex cons of their "God given" rights in the constitution to self defense.

Don't be foolishly beguiled into thinking we are any more free than NZ. One day they decided select fire was too much, maybe tomorrow they decide semi auto too much. And lets be quite honest, we are domesticated animals now. We are totally depending on the government and therefor willing to give up a little liberty at a time to secure our continued scraps at feeding time.

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Old July 20, 2019, 07:37   #64
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Don't be foolishly beguiled into thinking we are any more free than NZ. One day they decided select fire was too much, maybe tomorrow they decide semi auto too much. And lets be quite honest, we are domesticated animals now. We are totally depending on the government and therefor willing to give up a little liberty at a time to secure our continued scraps at feeding time.
Nonsense and only some self proscribed domesticated gunowner who has loss their will to restist would believe that in its entirety.
Now if you are speaking for perhaps a simple majority of 700 million Americans whom are couch potatoes in regards to the Bill of Rights you may have a point. However, us leftover deplorables which will likely add up to several millions may be something our government and certainly our military will not want to deal with.
Keep in mind we now have many courts packed with conservative appointees.
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Old July 20, 2019, 07:47   #65
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We have a very Vocal and Strong Firearms Advocate Groups here in NZ and we continue to fight, the Government said at the Start they would deliberately not engage us (NZ Firearms Community) and fast track the Gun Ban process in direct violation of our basic democratic & civil rights to have our opinions heard or challenged

the Government made No Secret of this
Honest question and not trying to be confrontational about it, but why do you tolerate a rogue government grab that ignores your voice and violates your God given rights as a human? You personally as well as NZers as a people? Is there any drive to fight this gross overreach?
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Old July 20, 2019, 08:18   #66
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Honest question and not trying to be confrontational about it, but why do you tolerate a rogue government grab that ignores your voice and violates your God given rights as a human? You personally as well as NZers as a people? Is there any drive to fight this gross overreach?
"tolerate a rogue Government" good question, I guess I believe in being Civil ! I can also add that ive done more than my fair share of protesting ive written articles to News Papers who reluctantly printed parts of my letters, ive spoken to several residing members of Parliament on many occasions spoken to local councillors tore strips of particular farming advocate group (in person) for supporting the general idea of Firearm reforms, got stuck into Police from local beat Cops all the way to 2IC in Arms Office having been warned more than once, I gave the Minister for Police's Office more than one rough phone call ive even had about 5-6 heated phone call's to NZ Customs and had countless discussions with friends family and the general public, I submitted letters to Parliament in opposition to rushed Firearm reform and spoken/complained to countless Parliament Officials regarding these violations

so now that ive told you this can I ask what you have done ? the N.Z Government has openly exploited and abused its power violating our most Basic democratic processes why haven't you got onto your State Dept and urge them to condemn our Government for these violations perhaps its not as convenient as post threads on the Files ?
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Old July 20, 2019, 08:31   #67
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https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/polit...cADu8H_gp4QZg0

Watch this Senior member of Parliament (who's meant to be Centre Right) openly advocate circumnavigating our democratic process to rail road shoddy gun laws into Law, apparently the NRA was meant to of tried its influence and she's a big Hero for telling them to f**k off what ever !
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Old July 20, 2019, 08:44   #68
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Nonsense and only some self proscribed domesticated gunowner who has loss their will to restist would believe that in its entirety.
Now if you are speaking for perhaps a simple majority of 700 million Americans whom are couch potatoes in regards to the Bill of Rights you may have a point. However, us leftover deplorables which will likely add up to several millions may be something our government and certainly our military will not want to deal with.
Keep in mind we now have many courts packed with conservative appointees.
Sorry I just don't see it. We've drawn a line in the sand too many times only to say "WELL NEXT TIME" when that line is crossed.
CA gun owners get raped yearly.. silence in response.
Trump bans bump stocks.. Lots of grumbling from some, lots of excuses about "hey if we give them this they'll leave us alone elsewhere" but again silence.

One tiny bite at a time. And while I hope and pray you're right.. Just not seeing it from our community. We're domesticated.(I include myself in that group)

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Old July 20, 2019, 09:52   #69
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That's sad on parts. Are all semi autos that way. You guys have some original AR-10s down your way, in which the furniture etc. would help on this side of the pond. At least in spirit your rifle would live on (at least for a while longer).
yes Sudanese & Portuguese surplus AR-10s where Imported into N.Z in good numbers back in the early 80s, im about one of the few people that might be given permission to Export Parts for a limited time ! but I don't know anyone with a AR10 to strip parts from so what good am I
I do know a guy with a N.O.S G-Series that im looking at swapping out his blue/grey HGs for so I can send them State Side
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Old July 20, 2019, 09:59   #70
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Would it help if you converted your rifles to non-functioning samples by welding the chamber shut or the barrel?
Not a option the Government/Police have certain conditions and that's not one
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Old July 20, 2019, 10:09   #71
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HICKOK 45 From you tube vids

anyone know HICKOCK 45 !? our TVNZ 1 News have used clips of him multiple times shooting AR15s when doing Gun Ban segments for the News !
thought someone might want to inform him in case he objects or wants to share his thoughts with them
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Old July 20, 2019, 10:42   #72
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so now that ive told you this can I ask what you have done ? the N.Z Government has openly exploited and abused its power violating our most Basic democratic processes why haven't you got onto your State Dept and urge them to condemn our Government for these violations perhaps its not as convenient as post threads on the Files ?
Those are all good & civil actions on your part and good on you for choosing the preferred route. Sadly, it didn’t work and most likely will continue to not work since NZ gun enthusiasts seem accepting of the abuse. Show of arms may change your tack, if you can muster the bravery to do so.

What have I done? Nothing for you or your country, and I don’t suppose I will. I don’t post here as any kind of any kind of “convenient” armchair savior to your cause, as it is your burden and not mine. I am saddled well enough in the heavy burdens of social, moral, and political decay of my own country. Our God given Rights are under the same assaults as yours, but as Citizens and not Subjects our levy is a bit higher for the floods of tyranny to breach. But I assure you there are many, many of my countrymen that would cheer for their own rights to be stripped as yours have been, all for the false promises of “security” and the warm embrace of Big Brother’s bread & circuses. I influence my own AO to the best of my abilities, contributing at local, state, and national levels both financially and personally.

America is at great threat falling into the same trap NZ has, so you are going to have fight your own fight on your island, my friend. My hands are pretty dirty keeping my own Rights intact. My “convenient” posts here are meant only to hopefully serve as some kind of inspirational motivation for you to improve your seriously fucked up situation. That’s worth exactly what you paid for it, just like your Liberty.
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Old July 20, 2019, 11:22   #73
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Those are all good & civil actions on your part and good on you for choosing the preferred route. Sadly, it didn’t work and most likely will continue to not work since NZ gun enthusiasts seem accepting of the abuse. Show of arms may change your tack, if you can muster the bravery to do so.

What have I done? Nothing for you or your country, and I don’t suppose I will. I don’t post here as any kind of any kind of “convenient” armchair savior to your cause, as it is your burden and not mine. I am saddled well enough in the heavy burdens of social, moral, and political decay of my own country. Our God given Rights are under the same assaults as yours, but as Citizens and not Subjects our levy is a bit higher for the floods of tyranny to breach. But I assure you there are many, many of my countrymen that would cheer for their own rights to be stripped as yours have been, all for the false promises of “security” and the warm embrace of Big Brother’s bread & circuses. I influence my own AO to the best of my abilities, contributing at local, state, and national levels both financially and personally.

America is at great threat falling into the same trap NZ has, so you are going to have fight your own fight on your island, my friend. My hands are pretty dirty keeping my own Rights intact. My “convenient” posts here are meant only to hopefully serve as some kind of inspirational motivation for you to improve your seriously fucked up situation. That’s worth exactly what you paid for it, just like your Liberty.
you are not my stereotype of the "ideal" American the type of American known to the World, Trump is not only your President but also the leader of the "Free World" responsible for promoting Freedom America has historically stood up to dictators and the spread of Communism along with inspiring and shaping this modern World

so I challenge you and any other FAL Files members to take a look what has happened here in N.Z regarding our civil rights/democratic processes being violated and perhaps condemn these actions diplomatically through your Government, at the very least it will serve the purpose of showing my Government that these violations of democratic rights will not go un noticed in the World forum

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Old July 20, 2019, 11:43   #74
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Wow! What a wake up call. This sparked a good discussion last night with my teenagers. We had just discussed last week how registration is the 1st step to confiscation.

What are we willing to fight for? Not guns themselves (as much as we enjoy them, they're just tools), but the rights and liberty behind them. Rights and liberty that the preservation of depend on the 2A.

When did our Constitutional Republic become a government of the politicians, for the politicians, by the politicians?
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Old July 20, 2019, 13:25   #75
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Sorry I just don't see it. We've drawn a line in the sand too many times only to say "WELL NEXT TIME" when that line is crossed.
CA gun owners get raped yearly.. silence in response.
Trump bans bump stocks.. Lots of grumbling from some, lots of excuses about "hey if we give them this they'll leave us alone elsewhere" but again silence.

One tiny bite at a time. And while I hope and pray you're right.. Just not seeing it from our community. We're domesticated.(I include myself in that group)
I hear you and let's understand some cities & states liberals attempting to chip away at gun rights in the name of public safety are local. If the voters and elected politicians are persuasive in numbers then anything can possibly get passed.
On a national basis the red line in the sand is who controls the power of the electorate in districts and states and determines who will control the country. Your state may be in jeopardy as the northern liberals continue to relocate there they bring their ideology with them. Virginia, Oregon & Washington States are examples and Georgia and Texas are said to be now in play.

Just by relocating demographics it seems to now be a state by state question of tipping the scale to the favor of the anti-firearms crowd.
I don't see a national ban like OZ and NZ on semi-auto rifles at this time as the congress just does not have the horses to pull it off.
Obama certainly did not pull off his promise of more gun control because he was too pre occupied with Obamacare and then lossed control the congress.
Trump is a safe bet and I do not know what it would take to change his mind or to override his veto.
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Old July 20, 2019, 16:07   #76
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The closest thing I recall regarding a total ban here in the US (other than illicit drugs), was Prohibition.

What did it achieve...the rise of thugs, gangsters and the Mafia.
Kinda like Chicago, which has some of the most strict, if not the strictest gun laws in the US and also the highest crime rate regarding drugs, gangs, shootings and killings.

For Prohibition, all it took was an election & change of Government....Prohibition repealed !!

Hopefully the same happens in NZ ??
Unfortunately, too late for some.
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Old July 21, 2019, 00:54   #77
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Yes you did. You had the choice to resist or submit. You chose to submit.
That’s real easy to say when it’s not you.
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Old July 21, 2019, 01:02   #78
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I hear you and let's understand some cities & states liberals attempting to chip away at gun rights in the name of public safety are local. If the voters and elected politicians are persuasive in numbers then anything can possibly get passed.
On a national basis the red line in the sand is who controls the power of the electorate in districts and states and determines who will control the country. Your state may be in jeopardy as the northern liberals continue to relocate there they bring their ideology with them. Virginia, Oregon & Washington States are examples and Georgia and Texas are said to be now in play.

Just by relocating demographics it seems to now be a state by state question of tipping the scale to the favor of the anti-firearms crowd.
I don't see a national ban like OZ and NZ on semi-auto rifles at this time as the congress just does not have the horses to pull it off.
Obama certainly did not pull off his promise of more gun control because he was too pre occupied with Obamacare and then lossed control the congress.
Trump is a safe bet and I do not know what it would take to change his mind or to override his veto.
You mean trumps a safe bet to approve more gun control correct? Bump stock ban, approves of red flag laws and stated he doesn’t like suppressors. At least under Obama’s time we can now all legally Carry in national parks.

I would rather have a politician who makes all kinds of noise and doesn’t further infringe upon my rights than one who claims to have my back then stabs me in the back.
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Old July 21, 2019, 03:23   #79
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Sorry to hear that, total bullshit.

This is what 'common sense' they want here in the United States as well, the majority of them are too afraid to come out and say it.
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Old July 21, 2019, 06:59   #80
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You mean trumps a safe bet to approve more gun control correct? Bump stock ban, approves of red flag laws and stated he doesn’t like suppressors. At least under Obama’s time we can now all legally Carry in national parks.

I would rather have a politician who makes all kinds of noise and doesn’t further infringe upon my rights than one who claims to have my back then stabs me in the back.
My comments on Trump speaks for itself and the banning of bumpstock and similar trigger jerking devices are certainly not acceptable for target shooting or hunting nor a mainstream concern of most firearms owners. Those devices are just attemps to skirt NFA law and we saw they are a menace to public safety documented in the event at Las Vagas.
Supressors are covered under the NFA the 1968 Gun Control Act or both and Trump is entitled to his opinion. To amend the law for supressors the issue would have to go through the congress and we know how that would end.

By virtue of open ear shooter's original #1 post would losing a few unsuitable bells & whistles be a major concern versus the total loss of our firearms?
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Old July 21, 2019, 07:26   #81
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My comments on Trump speaks for itself and the banning of bumpstock and similar trigger jerking devices are certainly not acceptable for target shooting or hunting nor a mainstream concern of most firearms owners. Those devices are just attemps to skirt NFA law and we saw they are a menace to public safety documented in the event at Las Vagas.
Supressors are covered under the NFA the 1968 Gun Control Act or both and Trump is entitled to his opinion. To amend the law for supressors the issue would have to go through the congress and we know how that would end.

By virtue of open ear shooter's original #1 post would losing a few unsuitable bells & whistles be a major concern versus the total loss of our firearms?
The NFA is unconstitutional.

The 2A is not meant to be controlled by the government as it's very purpose is to keep government foreign and at home in check if our rights are in peril.

Your path is a slippery slope.. You're bargaining small things you don't care about for things you do.. What happens when its something you care about and you're expecting support from people you did not defend?


This quote comes to mind.(I am not at all comparing WW2 to this situation, but the principle of abandoning others in the quote fits perfectly to gun owners today.)

Quote:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
You can very easily change the people mentioned to "hi cap mags" "suppressors" "bump stocks".


Never owned a bump stock, don't believe I've ever even shot a rifle with one on it.. I think they are ugly, stupid and inaccurate. But I do own a binary trigger that I paid $500 for and know if bump stocks go, they are next.. maybe standard capacity magazines after that. So I stood with and defended bump stock owners rights to own them under the second amendment(SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.. It doesn't say "Shall not be infringed unless it's something silly trying to skirt a law").

Selling fellow gun owners out because they have things you don't care about is how we will become the next NZ I'm afraid.

You frankly confuse me because you talk about patriots standing up and fighting in one post, then in another easily give our God given rights away because it's something stupid you don't care about?

Not wanting a fight Dakto, just hoping to open your eyes that our 2A is not to be haggled. "He who would give away a little liberty for temporary security deserves neither."
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Old July 21, 2019, 07:49   #82
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Move to the states under “ asylum”. It works for everyone else
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Old July 21, 2019, 08:55   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncreptile View Post
The NFA is unconstitutional.

The 2A is not meant to be controlled by the government as it's very purpose is to keep government foreign and at home in check if our rights are in peril.

Your path is a slippery slope.. You're bargaining small things you don't care about for things you do.. What happens when its something you care about and you're expecting support from people you did not defend?


This quote comes to mind.(I am not at all comparing WW2 to this situation, but the principle of abandoning others in the quote fits perfectly to gun owners today.)



You can very easily change the people mentioned to "hi cap mags" "suppressors" "bump stocks".


Never owned a bump stock, don't believe I've ever even shot a rifle with one on it.. I think they are ugly, stupid and inaccurate. But I do own a binary trigger that I paid $500 for and know if bump stocks go, they are next.. maybe standard capacity magazines after that. So I stood with and defended bump stock owners rights to own them under the second amendment(SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.. It doesn't say "Shall not be infringed unless it's something silly trying to skirt a law").

Selling fellow gun owners out because they have things you don't care about is how we will become the next NZ I'm afraid.

You frankly confuse me because you talk about patriots standing up and fighting in one post, then in another easily give our God given rights away because it's something stupid you don't care about?

Not wanting a fight Dakto, just hoping to open your eyes that our 2A is not to be haggled. "He who would give away a little liberty for temporary security deserves neither."
I have to agree with this. The Second Amendment is being nibbled away bit by bit.

The first step in resistance is for each of us to resolve that under no circumstances whatsoever will any of our arms ever be registered. Unconstitutional laws be damned.
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Old July 21, 2019, 10:37   #84
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Originally Posted by TNAndy View Post
I have to agree with this. The Second Amendment is being nibbled away bit by bit.

The first step in resistance is for each of us to resolve that under no circumstances whatsoever will any of our arms ever be registered. Unconstitutional laws be damned.
I'm going to skip multi quoting the posts that led up to this one that kind of makes the point I'm seeing.

I see the point people are trying to make about "slippery slope" and "nibbling away" the 2nd. But I share Dakto's opinion that gadgets, triggers, bump stocks, all these attempts to skirt NFA are NOT what the 2nd is all about.

The 2nd is about the "Arms", not the superfluous BS. There needs to be a clear definition of what an "arm" is and that could be where the details of the matter lay and where the line in the sand is.
Personally I can give no less shits than I do about binary triggers and arm braces, they aren't "arms" or "firearms". They won't help me defend myself, family, or rights. But the "arm" will.

The right to keep and bear arms.... shall not be infringed says **** all about accessories and accessories don't make the arm.

922, NFA, 1968 and 1989 bans, all unconstitutional. Trigger pullers, "arm brace" stocks, and funky springy stocks, not called out in the 2nd.
I bet someone is already huffing and puffing, trying to pound out "well, what about scopes and rails and electric sights, yadayadayada....
All stuff that can be argued out in courts. The arms themselves should be untouchable.

I'm willing to listen to counter points, go ahead and see if you can change my mind for me.

NZ is facked. If they don't pick up the arms they have left and gather enmasse RIGHT NOW and march on the gov't, demanding rights to their property and freedom they will forever be subjects of the queen. It would seem that they've chosen that path already, however. As freedom loving Americans this makes our blood boil but culturally, for them it's just another day. Their seemingly collective attitude to simply do whatever is demanded of them is foreign to us and our way of thinking. Most of us have a generation or two in our past who payed the price for the freedom we enjoy today, NZr's not so much. They are, after all, an island population formed as an extension of the Empire, not a fought for independent nation. They simply don't have the same attitude about being free that Americans do. Or once did have. The next chapter is still unwritten for us.
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:17   #85
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Quote:
There needs to be a clear definition of what an "arm" is and that could be where the details of the matter lay and where the line in the sand is.
Personally I can give no less shits than I do about binary triggers and arm braces, they aren't "arms" or "firearms". They won't help me defend myself, family, or rights. But the "arm" will.
I suggest that "arms" are any weapon that would aid the people in overthrowing the government and all accessories and ancillary items.

I am willing to consider a difference between direct fire and indirect fire. The argument being "kill that guy" versus "kill anybody". I think it is weak argument, but I also think that a 500 pound Mk84 bomb may not be covered by the intent of the 2A.

Quote:
The right to keep and bear arms.... shall not be infringed says **** all about accessories and accessories don't make the arm.
Are bullets "arms?"


Quote:
NZ is facked. If they don't pick up the arms they have left and gather enmasse RIGHT NOW and march on the gov't, demanding rights to their property and freedom they will forever be subjects of the queen.
Does AUS and NZ benefit from subservience to the QofE? I wondered why they never declared their independence. And maybe it is time for the people to do so, and establish a their own constitutional government.
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:20   #86
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The courts are not our friends nor is the Government. A definition of what "Arms" is can be construed to mean what ever you want it to mean, single shot? sure, bolt action? yep and the list goes on, it could mean all or just one, all depends on who is interpreting it.

Where do you "draw the line" or compromise to what degree?
We have compromised on storing home defense guns to appease some group of no nothings, we have compromised on magazine limits in some states all in the name of common sense and safety, you say that accessories (not arms) can be argued in court and yet we have had no court rule in favor of removing any bans on magazines as of yet nor will they.

Even here on the Files we diss on someone (fudds) because they shoot Black Powder rifles and that they are not even relevent as they are outdated, when in fact we should be backing ANY gun owner regardless of what they own or what their color of skin or sexual orientation is.
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:21   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncreptile View Post
The NFA is unconstitutional.

The 2A is not meant to be controlled by the government as it's very purpose is to keep government foreign and at home in check if our rights are in peril.

Your path is a slippery slope.. You're bargaining small things you don't care about for things you do.. What happens when its something you care about and you're expecting support from people you did not defend?







Never owned a bump stock, don't believe I've ever even shot a rifle with one on it.. I think they are ugly, stupid and inaccurate. But I do own a binary trigger that I paid $500 for and know if bump stocks go, they are next.. maybe standard capacity magazines after that. So I stood with and defended bump stock owners rights to own them under the second amendment(SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.. It doesn't say "Shall not be infringed unless it's something silly trying to skirt a law").

Selling fellow gun owners out because they have things you don't care about is how we will become the next NZ I'm afraid.

You frankly confuse me because you talk about patriots standing up and fighting in one post, then in another easily give our God given rights away because it's something stupid you don't care about?

Not wanting a fight Dakto, just hoping to open your eyes that our 2A is not to be haggled. "He who would give away a little liberty for temporary security deserves neither."
I believe we must be prudent in what we support and what we should not be supporting.

Okay let's face the facts on the NFA being constitutional.
Prior to 1934 the 1918 BAR, and 1928 Thompson sub guns were brought over counter along with other automatic weapons and used by criminals to not only rob but to also kill citizens in the process of their crimes. Bonnie & Clyde often used a 1918 BAR and one was in the car when they were killed. Machinegun Kelly got his tag from often using a 1928 Thompson during crime and in killings. Automatic weapons were all over Chicago and often used against the police and the list goes on. Nowadays, Hollywood glorified these murderers. We were not around back then and the fact remains many citizens were killed by collateral damage because of the uncontrolled automatic weapons on the streets.

Let's go back prior to bumpstocks.
Remember the 1980's drop in automatic sears for the Colt AR's and the XM177 noise reducer breaks? Anyone with half a brain knew neither would stand punlic scrutiny.
Colt tried to fix the drop in sear problem by redesigning the lower on the Colt SP1 to negate the drop in sear. Tool shop guys managed to get around that by a redesign. The Feds said that was enough and if you wanted an automatic weapon register the sear as NFA and a ban date was placed on any new sears. Most likely these kind of issues and others lead up to 1986 where new automatic weapons were kaput.
The XM177 noise reducers were sold on the open market and it didn't take the ATF long to reclassify them as silencers. All were recalled since each had a serial number on it and could be tracked by sales and were. Owners had the option of either registering them NFA or to turn them in.
There are also a few other examples and which brings us back to the bumpstocks where the function was not a secret and like the other's before it they were a disaster in waiting in the wrong hands.

I'll go a step farther with all those wonderful new semi assault type rifles being imported betweem 1984-1989. As a dealer I bought up as many as I could afford because I paid attention to the background liberal rumblings and waited for a future tragic event with one of those rifles and knew the glory days of imports would be gone forever.
I used to turn a blind eye towards those devices which fall into a gray area to skirt the law but no more as those devices when involved in each tragedy may be stepping stones towards confiscation of our firearms.
Never underestimate the power of public opinion as the liberal media are good at changing and twisting the narrative.

Enjoy your firearms.
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:37   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
I believe we must be prudent in what we support and what we should not be supporting.

Okay let's face the facts on the NFA being constitutional.
Prior to 1934 the 1918 BAR, and 1928 Thompson sub guns were brought over counter along with other automatic weapons and used by criminals to not only rob but to also kill citizens in the process of their crimes. Bonnie & Clyde often used a 1918 BAR and one was in the car when they were killed. Machinegun Kelly got his tag from often using a 1928 Thompson during crime and in killings. Automatic weapons were all over Chicago and often used against the police and the list goes on. Nowadays, Hollywood glorified these murderers. We were not around back then and the fact remains many citizens were killed by collateral damage because of the uncontrolled automatic weapons on the streets.

Let's go back prior to bumpstocks.
Remember the 1980's drop in automatic sears for the Colt AR's and the XM177 noise reducer breaks? Anyone with half a brain knew neither would stand punlic scrutiny.
Colt tried to fix the drop in sear problem by redesigning the lower on the Colt SP1 to negate the drop in sear. Tool shop guys managed to get around that by a redesign. The Feds said that was enough and if you wanted an automatic weapon register the sear as NFA and a ban date was placed on any new sears. Most likely these kind of issues and others lead up to 1986 where new automatic weapons were kaput.
The XM177 noise reducers were sold on the open market and it didn't take the ATF long to reclassify them as silencers. All were recalled since each had a serial number on it and could be tracked by sales and were. Owners had the option of either registering them NFA or to turn them in.
There are also a few other examples and which brings us back to the bumpstocks where the function was not a secret and like the other's before it they were a disaster in waiting in the wrong hands.

I'll go a step farther with all those wonderful new semi assault type rifles being imported betweem 1984-1989. As a dealer I bought up as many as I could afford because I paid attention to the background liberal rumblings and waited for a future tragic event with one of those rifles and knew the glory days of imports would be gone forever.
I used to turn a blind eye towards those devices which fall into a gray area to skirt the law but no more as those devices when involved in each tragedy may be stepping stones towards confiscation of our firearms.
Never underestimate the power of public opinion as the liberal media are good at changing and twisting the narrative.

Enjoy your firearms.
More deaths are caused by medical malpractice than guns, more deaths are caused by screwdrivers and baseball bats than guns, more deaths occur by drunk drivers than guns, knives etc etc....
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:48   #89
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Wow, I could write volumes on this subject. I've been heavily involved in all arenas. I:
1) voted in EVERY election since I turned 18.
2) donate to all the major pro-gun organizations.
3) donate to pro-gun candidates that stand a chance.
4) volunteer to assist my local candidates (my Delegate and I are actually range buddies - he only won by 81 votes the last time).
5) talk to anyone who will listen about how important this next election is here in Virginia. I noticed more young Asian guys coming to the range, many with brand new SCARs. Since I know they are a group known to be apolitical I strike up conversations about what is at stake. A couple have become more militant then I to make sure they keep their guns.
6) donate through the Amazon Smile program to the Second Amendment Foundation who is fighting the good fight in the courts.
7) lobby at the state capital. Was proud to see we outnumbered Bloomberg's mommies by over 10 to 1 on July 9th during the gun-control special session. Took a day's leave from work, but it was worth it.
8) help review legislation at the federal and state level to hopefully catch crap from getting through.
9) am also considered an expert on insurgent operations (have the scars and medals to prove it). I know how they succeed and how they fail.

We have powerful forces against us, but we are hanging on. The propaganda has become merciless and is turning the people against the cause and the organizations we need to do the heavy lifting, we are still winning (for now).
If you are doing the majority of 1-8 in some way, you'll never have to pick up a rifle.
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Old July 21, 2019, 13:42   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
I believe we must be prudent in what we support and what we should not be supporting.

Okay let's face the facts on the NFA being constitutional.
Prior to 1934 the 1918 BAR, and 1928 Thompson sub guns were brought over counter along with other automatic weapons and used by criminals to not only rob but to also kill citizens in the process of their crimes. Bonnie & Clyde often used a 1918 BAR and one was in the car when they were killed. Machinegun Kelly got his tag from often using a 1928 Thompson during crime and in killings. Automatic weapons were all over Chicago and often used against the police and the list goes on. Nowadays, Hollywood glorified these murderers. We were not around back then and the fact remains many citizens were killed by collateral damage because of the uncontrolled automatic weapons on the streets.

Let's go back prior to bumpstocks.
Remember the 1980's drop in automatic sears for the Colt AR's and the XM177 noise reducer breaks? Anyone with half a brain knew neither would stand punlic scrutiny.
Colt tried to fix the drop in sear problem by redesigning the lower on the Colt SP1 to negate the drop in sear. Tool shop guys managed to get around that by a redesign. The Feds said that was enough and if you wanted an automatic weapon register the sear as NFA and a ban date was placed on any new sears. Most likely these kind of issues and others lead up to 1986 where new automatic weapons were kaput.
The XM177 noise reducers were sold on the open market and it didn't take the ATF long to reclassify them as silencers. All were recalled since each had a serial number on it and could be tracked by sales and were. Owners had the option of either registering them NFA or to turn them in.
There are also a few other examples and which brings us back to the bumpstocks where the function was not a secret and like the other's before it they were a disaster in waiting in the wrong hands.

I'll go a step farther with all those wonderful new semi assault type rifles being imported betweem 1984-1989. As a dealer I bought up as many as I could afford because I paid attention to the background liberal rumblings and waited for a future tragic event with one of those rifles and knew the glory days of imports would be gone forever.
I used to turn a blind eye towards those devices which fall into a gray area to skirt the law but no more as those devices when involved in each tragedy may be stepping stones towards confiscation of our firearms.
Never underestimate the power of public opinion as the liberal media are good at changing and twisting the narrative.

Enjoy your firearms.
at the risk of sounding like our friend the Plumber...you are either ill informed or an idiot Dak

True, prior to the 34' NFA one could buy a TSMg over the counter
thing was they cost well over $200 DOLLARS
to place that in perspective, it was at the peak of the Great Deppression
one could purchase a small farm for that money or indeed a New off the assembly line Car
A new 1911 Colt was Twenty odd bucks

Yeah a few baddies used MGs
Dillingers gang
Johnny was well known for stealing Thompsons from Cop Shops
oh' Clyde Barrows's BARs ?
Everyone stolen from brazen robberies of National Guard Armories
truth is, a very small handful were ever publically sold

Ma Barker's boys used a 1919 Browning belt fed in their escapade in South Minneapolis that was stolen from an Armory

So who else other than cops and military was buying MGs
Mostly corporations to outfit their anti Union forces dummy
don't wanna believe all that Dak
why do you think the NFA had a special exemption built into it for Corps...
Corps didn't need a permission slip from a CLEO to possess NFA weapons
back then, the CLEO was typically the Sheriff who was an elected official who could have prevented Strike bustin' gangs from possessing BARs and Tommy guns

My own grand dad worked awhile in the Texas/Oklahoma panhandle as a corporate enforcer. One of my favorite pix of him was taken by his very young wife in Texas with her Brownie Camera, Jake with his Commercial BAR outside some roadhouse
better one of my youthful granny was her arm in arm with Bonnie Parker
grandma always told me Bonnie was a real Slut though they had only met that one occasion

anyways, the NFA had little to do with criminal activity
it's actual concept was all about using taxation to limit access to any concealable firearm, the initial bulk of it was focused on handguns
yes, a major tax on pistol transfers to prevent Average Joe from even possessing a damn Iver Johnson piece of shit
Congress came to their senses, realized it would likely result in outright insurrection Coast to Coast so handguns were stripped out of the legislation but they left in the concepts of SBRs & SBS as residual matter of the concealable prohibitions of the mid 30s

What was the NFA really about ?
best study that era and open your eyes
the worry was Unions arming up against Corporations Dak
wasn't yet happening but Elites wanted to get in front of that potential

Suppressors had nada to do with any of that
they went after Maxims to prevent hungry folks from poaching on the King's forest.

The NFA was created top to bottom to restrict a certain class of weaponry only to very wealthy elites and their hired henchmen so get off your stool of idiocy

lets touch on your collatrol damage line
4 were slugged up when they assassinated Dillinger
Didja' know two were murdered by the FBI a mile away from the Little Bohemia resort...Purvis's new FBI crew machinegunned a couple fishermen
just sayin' most of that shit was done by enforcers not the perps

From that evolved felony murder rules
coppers do a bad shoot they get to blame the felon
trust me, many folks ended up shot down in the 20s and 30s by law enforcement.
more bystanders were blasted by them then by bad actors robbing banks and this continues today
it's all about liability before the Courts

as to your contentions regarding DIAS and XM series muzzle devices
more bullshit

the XM devices were ALWAYS regulated
some slipped out of military stores as initially the DoD didn't see them as NFA items and sold them as scrap in the 70s

DIAS were grey
you could own one but couldn't use it unless it was registered
yeah I went through that era, as a youngster I had a table covered with that shit Dak
overwhelmingly my customers were Law Enforcement
really seriously in the late 70s/early 80s not that many were doing conversions. Never had any sketchy types buying
mostly LE but I have mostly been rural always
No clue what was going on elsewhere back then Dak

Myself, I always sold the Greys with registration paperwork pre 86'
I'm responsible for creating at least a few dozen SOTs, walking them through the paper jungle so yes I have been around awhile
ATF has been back and forth on the issue
for example now full M16 profile carriers in guns are kosher, in the 80s they were not
pre November 81' DIAS are still kosher unregistered but you better be able to prove that and you can only apply them as an SOT to a post sample anyways

trying hard not to be a complete Dick but just saying you are very much wrong in much of this
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Old July 21, 2019, 14:19   #91
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at the risk of sounding like our friend the Plumber...you are either ill informed or an idiot Dak

My synopsis of past events stands without your story telling, run on sentences, speculation and conjecture.
Your quote above is where I stopped reading as the rest is meaningless to me during your already defeated debate.

You know, I believe you have much potential, but like Mark Graham the first thing out of you mouth is to attack the opposition which may present the rest of your thoughts as suspect. Your posturing in the educated world of discussion is called: Ad Hominem, which directs your argument against the person rather than the position they maintaining. You will not win many arguments that way and need to come up with a better plan of attack like being more pragmatic.
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Old July 21, 2019, 14:33   #92
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M but like Mark Graham the first thing out of you mouth is to attack the opposition

Says the completely discredited pathological liar and fraud.

Yes, my response to your bullshit is to "attack you" - AKA, "point out that you're a lying sack of shit, a slanderer and a fraud."
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Old July 21, 2019, 14:35   #93
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Old July 21, 2019, 14:53   #94
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I have to agree with this. The Second Amendment is being nibbled away bit by bit.

The first step in resistance is for each of us to resolve that under no circumstances whatsoever will any of our arms ever be registered. Unconstitutional laws be damned.
Andy, don't become too shortsighted with the Second Admendment as there is also politics involved.
A point and case is Bill Clinton and both Houses of Congress in 1993 maintaining a stranglehold on the Brady Bill soon to being passed as an Act (forever).
The opposition was the Republicians and the NRA. Both realizing they were fighting an uphill battle and in a no win situation believed their best strategy was to compromise.
Bill Clinton needed a spending bill to pass the Senate with 60 votes and he only had 57.
The end results was Clinton got his spending bill passed along with the Brady Act and the Republicians and the NRA got a sunset provision for the Brady Act which gutted most of the assault rifle provisions in the Act.

If we are willing to be pragmatic with the threat of realistic gun issues than the loss of less important administrative issues is a win. Especially in a no-win scenario.
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Old July 21, 2019, 15:08   #95
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My own grand dad worked awhile in the Texas/Oklahoma panhandle as a corporate enforcer. One of my favorite pix of him was taken by his very young wife in Texas with her Brownie Camera, Jake with his Commercial BAR outside some roadhouse
better one of my youthful granny was her arm in arm with Bonnie Parker
grandma always told me Bonnie was a real Slut though they had only met that one occasion
I digress, but I have a family story. My grandmother had a newspaper clip of the frontpage of a nearby city's newspaper back in the 1930's. The photo covered nearly half of the frontpage and it was of my great-grandmother's brother standing in the middle of about 200 strikers and he's one-arming a Thompson with drum magazine.

He died a couple years before I was born, so I never met the man. But in my teenage years I'd ask about the story and the gun. She'd always just reply, "aw, he probably got rid of it". Never did go into the story.

A couple years ago the picture resurfaced and the local historical society filled in the story on the picture. Apparently, the story isn't as exciting as the picture. My great-great-uncle was a truck driver and he was trying to drive through a picket-line during what turned out to be a very violent strike in my hometown. When the picket wouldn't open and they started pounding on the truck he stepped out with the Tommy Gun and threatened to shoot a few.

Well, one of the bigger guys in the crowd walked up to him and took the gun away. Pulled out the mag and handed them back to him. He just got back in the truck and drove away, never to try driving through again. A reporter asked the big guy why he just walked up and took the gun. He replied that he'd been in the Great War and could tell my great-great-uncle was not the type to shoot unarmed men. So, this is what my grandmother probably meant by, "he got rid of it". How I wish I had that Tommy Gun.
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Old July 21, 2019, 15:18   #96
Riversidesports
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I won't condemn Open Ear Shooter one bit
nope not at all

just depends on how lawless one is open to being

Okay, some examples to suck up...

Up here we have tons of border communities with gun shows
for example Grand Forks ND/East Grand Forks MN
Morehead MN/Fargo ND
Duluth MN/Superior WI
all of those have shows and you just cross a bridge and you have gone interstate
as such I always figured there were at least a couple hundred felonies done a show over prohibited interstate private sales a weekend

So lets say you stop at an out of state garage sale in some small town and there sits a G43 or Garand for two or three bills
Well it is unlawful to buy it
How many here will walk away from that ?
truthfully, about none of you will on some none 4473 purchase and don't be lying to this peer group
I suspect many of us have willfully violated the GCA and are guilty of federal Felonies

thing is, we are Americans and as a general rule we don't abide by the King's wishes

Canucks are kind of like that too
just not nearly as outspoken as us Yanks are

OZ and NZ ?
different situation somewhat
just a fraction of prohibited arms were ever turned in to the slaggers in OZ, I'm sure Andy can attest to that
same will happen in NZ
it will be mostly domesticated urbans who comply
rural folks will be fuk of you bloody sod

Open Eared had registered arms
folks joke about boating accidents and shit but that's garbage talk from the gutters of reality

Here's the point folks
You either see weapons as a RIGHT or you don't
in many former colonies it's not a right

Further while what is going on there sucks major Cock they are at least COMPENSATING quite unlike so called FREE Amerika
had dummy Sessions offered even $100 a bumpstock they would have dragged in tens of thousands

When prohibition went into law does anyone think folks poured out the booze at home ?
America scoffed at Congress and drank more

lets talk Canada...
most Yanks don't understand Canada was an experiment under Clinton
we financed the Gun Registry scheme up north
Clinton gave them super computers, sent ATF there
it was a test balloon
well it failed badly, the registry has been mostly disbanded
it wasn't saving lives, even Canuck progressives voted it down
with no Clinton $$$s it was unworkable

Kiwis are a bit like Canadians
they do try to follow law to a point until it's burdensome
then they do what folks everywhere always do, ignore the government

if I had registered arms yeah I'd turn them in for cash too there.

Open Eared is bad for contrasting his situation to our NFA
once a MG is registered to an owner here nobody follows that up
had a situation in the 90s where a Mp40 with DoD paperwork went through two unregistered hands before we tracked it back to family who sold it at grand dads farm auction
registered gun in the 50s

my feel is over 30% of NFA since 34' is now off the books having been sold by widows and kiddos to second parties
just a ton of crap has been walked out of cop shops too
America isn't NZ

on this forum I figure just over 50% compliance if FALs were outright banned so yeah many guys here would do the same without being even paid or a registration trace

some have even bald faced admitted it on the Files
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Old July 21, 2019, 15:28   #97
CG&L
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In 1921, the Thompson sold for $200. Depending on how you calculate inflation, that $200 is like 3,000 to $6,000 in today's money

No one could afford the Thompson and the company was on the brink of bankruptcy. It was Prohibition that made criminals wealth enough to afford a Thompson. Even then, it wasn't a common firearm.

The Dillinger with his BARs is a weak argument as he stole those from the National Guard

And Dakto thinks by giving the devil something, the devil will leave us alone.
Maybe Dakto should change his handle to Dummyto
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Old July 21, 2019, 15:32   #98
Riversidesports
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
My synopsis of past events stands without your story telling, run on sentences, speculation and conjecture.
Your quote above is where I stopped reading as the rest is meaningless to me during your already defeated debate.

You know, I believe you have much potential, but like Mark Graham the first thing out of you mouth is to attack the opposition which may present the rest of your thoughts as suspect. Your posturing in the educated world of discussion is called: Ad Hominem, which directs your argument against the person rather than the position they maintaining. You will not win many arguments that way and need to come up with a better plan of attack like being more pragmatic.
You are a riot Dak

I'm not debating you, I want other folks to really look at this history and do their own conclusions for better or maybe worse

yeah you visualize it all as attacks on your character
that's weak kneed shit friend
your position in my opinion is bullshit, I can easily provide links on where those MGs came from, period cost, cost of a model A, working wages in the 30s, etc versus your fantasy world as I see it

so you want to pull up your big boy pants and really play with me on all this ?
Again, I am trying hard not to be the Dick to you as you are being to me

Shit, convince me otherwise...
give evidence your position is more accurate Dak
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Old July 21, 2019, 15:46   #99
Riversidesports
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CG&L View Post
In 1921, the Thompson sold for $200. Depending on how you calculate inflation, that $200 is like 3,000 to $6,000 in today's money

No one could afford the Thompson and the company was on the brink of bankruptcy. It was Prohibition that made criminals wealth enough to afford a Thompson. Even then, it wasn't a common firearm.

The Dillinger with his BARs is a weak argument as he stole those from the National Guard

And Dakto thinks by giving the devil something, the devil will leave us alone.
Maybe Dakto should change his handle to Dummyto
John used Tommys
Clyde Barrow BARs
both assholes stole not bought guns

but yes expensive and really not in the realm of the public
about no hardware stores had a Thompson in the gun display
you ordered that shit with money up front
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Old July 21, 2019, 16:12   #100
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I pity ewe.
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