The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The AR Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 23, 2018, 08:33   #1
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Lightest handguard ?

I'm needing the lightest weight, free float handguard for a 24" HB hunting/varmint type AR build..Full rifle length,,and cheaper is better.
Ive already got key lock, aluminum tube and hogue type handguards on different rifles, wanting something I can differentiate from those at a glance..
Options ?
TIA
Cheers, yv
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 08:42   #2
Invictus77
The Colonel 1C16:13
Bronze Contributor
 
Invictus77's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74205
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Western, KY
Posts: 6,945
I have a short (7"?) free float handguard you can have for the asking if it works for your purpose bro. We are about to head to church, but I will text you a picture when I get home.
__________________
A 9mm might expand
A 45 will never shrink
Invictus77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 09:09   #3
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
I have a short (7"?) free float handguard you can have for the asking if it works for your purpose bro. We are about to head to church, but I will text you a picture when I get home.
Appreciate the thought Mike, but Im needing something full rifle length.
Been looking and thinking of those carbon fiber ones, but Ive no experience with them and the 'glued together' nature gives me pause....
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 10:23   #4
tac-40
Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon
 
tac-40's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 12090
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 8,043
Just picked up a Seekins Precision NOX handguard for my latest 18" build. Very light and uniquely shaped with a flat bottom. Comes in 12 and 15 inch length and as a KeyMod or MLoc variants. A little spendy but worth it IMHO. I got the KeyMod, shown below is the MLoc. The top rail interfaces perfectly with my AeroPrecision upper with no gaps.

__________________
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Schools uses to start with the "three R's". Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Now they start with the "three D's". Dipshitery, Dumbassery, and Douchebaggery-Retired Bum

If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.

Last edited by tac-40; September 23, 2018 at 10:31.
tac-40 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 10:26   #5
1911Ron
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17513
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ft Mudge Az
Posts: 1,437
Have you looked at Midwest Industries? I bought a 15" free float hg for my gen II Recon, it weighs about 11ounces.
__________________
FAL convert.
"Too old to fight, too slow to run, but I can still shoot pretty good!"
1911Ron is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 12:21   #6
Invictus77
The Colonel 1C16:13
Bronze Contributor
 
Invictus77's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74205
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Western, KY
Posts: 6,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Appreciate the thought Mike, but Im needing something full rifle length.
No worries.....

BTW - I have two South African customers and two South African employees in town who are coming here this afternoon for BBQ and shooting. The Thompson and several other "toys" will be be deployed. Come on up if you are free. You know the way bro
__________________
A 9mm might expand
A 45 will never shrink
Invictus77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 14:19   #7
jugrunner
Registered
Contributor
 
jugrunner's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 19911
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 5,672
I have 2 or 3 in various lengths .. alum/magnesium .. keymod .. can't remember the manuf. but they almost float .. shocking ..
__________________
___________________________________________
"Remember man as you pass by, as you are now, so once was I. As I am now, so you shall be. Prepare for death and follow me."
jugrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 19:00   #8
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 6,963
I bought 2 of these off eBay, one really cheap and the other was right about $50 I think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lightweight....c100037.m2107

They are extremely lightweight but the barrel nut is less than stellar. I'm getting back into the gunsmithing class at the local college so I'm gonna make up a couple of barrel nuts out of 2" aluminum then lighten them up on the mill. I'll see how they turn out.

Alternatively, Clark Custom Guns have their screw on models with no glue these days. A 16" model is $210 + shipping.

https://clarkcustomguns.com/product/...ber-handguard/
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 19:15   #9
FriendBesto
Registered
Contributor
 
FriendBesto's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 77523
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 228
I have a couple MI rails and I think they are the best rails for the money out there.
FriendBesto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 23, 2018, 21:22   #10
fly2.0
Senior Member
Gold Contributor
 
fly2.0's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 79608
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Under fire in Kentucky
Posts: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
I'm needing the lightest weight, free float handguard for a 24" HB hunting/varmint type AR build..Full rifle length,,and cheaper is better.
Ive already got key lock, aluminum tube and hogue type handguards on different rifles, wanting something I can differentiate from those at a glance..
Options ?
TIA
Cheers, yv
Key Mod or MLOC
__________________
* * * * *
*
********************************************
** Colt / FN All the way **
********************************************
fly2.0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 24, 2018, 05:39   #11
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
I'll spend some time and check out everything, but sofar, Im really kind of liking the thought of the flat bottom on the seekins precision extrusion...
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 24, 2018, 07:33   #12
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Faxon*Carbon Fiber.....................................7.9 oz....$300.00
Midwest Industries*Lightweight*M-LOK....8.2 oz.....$190.00
Bravo Company KMR Alpha.......................8.8 oz.....$190.00
Brigand Arms*Carbon Fiber*Braid..............4.3 oz....$230-350

How light and how much you want to pay are often directly correlated. But not always. Been using the Gorilla Machine Super Light Free Float at $49 and like them a lot.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24, 2018, 08:26   #13
jhend170
Registered
Contributor
 
jhend170's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 76477
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,851
Carbon fiber is your friend. It can be quite thin, and when stepped on or dropped has a better chance of flexing and not breaking, unlike thin aluminum or magnesium will.

That being said, I'm seeing it as a bit of an oxymoron to need an ultralight FF HG to go with a 24" varmint barrel. At some point the partial ounces mean little to the pounds that barrel will weigh. I get that you're probably trying to offset one with the other, but the biggest weight savings you can have would be with a shorter barrel.

You didn't mention what caliber you're shooting. If you're going with 5.56/.223 then just north of 18" of barrel length gets you a full powder burn, and well over 95% of possible velocity. If you look at a velocity chart beyond that point the rate of acceleration starts dropping dramatically, and 20" will get you 99" of what 24" will. If you're using a different caliber, well I'd start with looking at what 4-6 additional inches gains you in velocity, because a groundhog will splatter about the same at 1500fps as it will at 1600.
jhend170 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 24, 2018, 09:10   #14
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
In 5.56 20" is long as I go with barrels normally but recently built a pair of 24" heavy barrel 1:12 twist for launching 50 to 53 grain bullets at varmints. Usually 18" is all the bareel I need if buy a quality tube to start with. I was more interested in protecting the gas block and tube than weight of handguard along with length since both tubes have rifle +2" length gas systems. When start a build on four pound barrels and heavy matched billet receiver sets a lightweight handguard is not going to make or break a ten plus pound build with optics. I was more worried about handguards being rock solid and rigid for attaching a bipod when shooting prone.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24, 2018, 11:48   #15
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Its .223 1:12...
Yes, barrel makes it front heavy enough already.
I like velocity...I dont like stiubby barrels, or having to wear plugs inside my ear muffs...
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 25, 2018, 07:00   #16
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Finished Cerakote on a 24" White Oak Armament heavy varmint tube yesterday and pulled parts to build it. This thread reminded me had some more heavy tubes. Finished it in O.D. Green as have a Magpul O.D. Green pistol grip, FAB Defense magwell funnel and some other parts in the dark green. Pulled a SIG carbon fiber A2 stock and should have upper built before the end of the day if get time to work on it. For the free float handguard pulled a Gorilla Machining AR-15 - 17" Super Lite Free Float Handguard M-LOK Rail. Even at 17" it's very light and at $55 retail it's hard to beat. Soon as get it done will post pictures to give OP an idea of the look and design of the Gorilla on a similar barrel.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25, 2018, 08:09   #17
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Looked up the specs on the Gorilla M-Lok. It's a whopping 17.2" at 10.582 ounces with accessory mounts. For $55 have been buying these in all sizes. They come with a barrel nut that uses a standard wrench but looks like it's mounted backwards till get handguard on.

__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25, 2018, 15:14   #18
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
I killed a couple of hours to show a $55 lightweight handguard on a 24" heavy barrel upper. Will build the lower tomorrow and another toy is done.



Edit: Used a DPMS Lo Pro slick side upper to support the weight of the heavy barrel (no forward assist or extra metal machined away for dust cover door) which I like for this type of build. Squared it as is habit to get a clean front and square front end but as usual the DPMS was pretty much dead on square out of the box. Found a Vortex 6.5-24x, Leupold 4-12x and Leupold 6-18x scopes in the glass pile and have to decide which will top this puppy off.



Mocked up a lower with a SIG carbon fiber A2 stock and when joined the two rifle seemed like it was a mile long. This will be an extra prairie dog rifle for the front range of the Rockies more than anything but never can tell when might get pressed into a defensive role so the 24" barrel and long SIG A2 stock would take one of the few long cases generally use for transporting my turn bolts. Did some digging and found a Magpul MOE OD Green collapsible stock along with OD Green MOE grip along with a FAB Defense OD Green magazine funnel as put on most of my builds so the rifle plan changed with a couple lowers mocked up and will be all OD Green and black with a Geissele two stage trigger tuned up this afternoon to get a head start on the lower build.

Built the upper mainly to highlight the $55 Gorilla Machining M-Lok free float forearm for this thread. (It's crazy when have enough parts in the locker to follow a build being discussed) Could spend approximately $50 per ounce to save 1.5 ounces on some of the lighter and more expensive aluminum handguards at almost two bills each or pop $390 for these 5.5 ounce handguards that won't accept any accessories. Below rifle has so much meat machined off the metal and polymer parts I don't think I could trust it in a heavy use defensive/offensive role. Afraid might leap in a doth or my clumsy @$$ might fall on it and snap the thing in two pieces. Have a sub four pound rifle but attained the weight reduction by reducing size, not material strength.



I don't see paying an extra $120 to $140 to save under two ounces or an extra $335 to save five ounces on a build with a 4.5 pound upper. Once get backup sights, scope and lower it's going to be a nine pound rifle and ounces just don't matter laying prone zapping prairie dogs off a bipod. This will be big long 24" 5.56 build number three but needed to get this barrelease out of the pile and a thread on 24" heavy barrel poodle shooters seemed like enough of a reason. Also found an ARP 20" 22 Nosler barrel in the pile and will be picking up a matched SWAT Firearms billet receiver set by end of the week to build it on as like my burly and bulky receivers on 20" and longer tubes.

Even worse is found a twin 24" 5.56 barrel and DPMS Lo Pro receiver right next to this one pulled yesterday and squirted with O.D. Cerakote but could not choose a color. Today found three Magpul MOE furniture sets in FDE along with half a dozen FDE FAB Defense magwells so guess I will squirt the barrel FDE tomorrow. Read an article in Defense Review where the military has discovered rifle painted FDE are not as visible through thermal vision devices and why so many rattle cans of flat FDE paint are finding their way to the middle east and black rifles are getting hosed down with a rattle can FDE finish. For my area of operations green and black blend into foliage better but building enough FDE for use out west or from any place they might blend in well enough to warrant the lower thermal profile.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat

Last edited by hueyville; September 25, 2018 at 17:55.
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26, 2018, 15:23   #19
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Finished with collapsible stock and Geissele two stage trigger. 39" collapsed and 44" extended. The extra 5" makes it much easier to get behind seat of truck. At 10 pounds unloaded don't see where a few ounces on forearm would help much in long run.

__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27, 2018, 08:42   #20
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Till go out west to shoot prairie dogs or till crow planting season didn't see much use for the big 5.56 Wylde boom stick till got home. Sighted it in at 75 yards using 36 grain frangibles in back yard and then ran that through the point blank software and on a 2.5" target had a point blank from muzzle to 200 yards. At 75 yards five rounds nested into a simgle small ragged hole and its nice to have side focus for short shots. Neighbors and wife have been complaining about the gazillion chipmunks around the Ponderosa. Digging holes in lawns, if poison them then their dogs eat the dead ones and get sick or die, get in engine bays of cars and chew wires. Went on back porch and set up a rifle rest and started watching for squirrel and chipmunk.

Not quiet compared to rimfire or 5.56 turn bolt with suppressor or the 22 Hornets but farthest shot I have is 150 yards into corner of neighbors yard (house unoccupied again) and 25 feet in my yard. Wasn't long saw my first chipmunk held dead center without worrying about range squeezed and the 36 grain varmint grenade at 3,800 fps made him dissappear like a majician. Ended up shooting five chipmunks and two squirrel and the 24" barrel with the varmint grenades works perfectly without any doping any of the shots. Just hold dead center and when the frangible makes contact it either blows front half, rear half or varmint in half. Can't wait to zap a ground hog with it. Its currently living at back door next to the 10/22 and 22 Hornet.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27, 2018, 09:47   #21
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,114
Its not light enough until it vibrates like a spring-doorstop on every shot.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27, 2018, 11:34   #22
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Its not light enough until it vibrates like a spring-doorstop on every shot.
Ohhhh,,,you mean like a glock frame ??,,,
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27, 2018, 12:47   #23
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,114
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27, 2018, 13:28   #24
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Have built one sub four pound AR but it was an accident as used a 5.5" barrel & carbon fiber pistol brace. Still totally barreled with the entire lightweight poodle shooter concept. Let's take a 5.5 to 7 pound average rifle and shave it till nothing left but the required parts to fire. Try shooting it offhand at 250 yards and will be ordering some lead weights to add and steady it up. Can only imagine how much muzzle wobbles with each heartbeat on a sub four pound rifle. Seven to nine pounds with optics and it's lightweight to me. I sold two Glocks this week without any snide comments as LGS owner has some family health issues and doesn't need me trashing Clocks needing regular winding when have a ready to buy customer at counter but still haven't had one follow me home.

Edit:
Like to add perspective from time to time. Below is an 18" 6.8 spc II in A2 fixed stock trim with Nikon Monarch 7 2.5-10x side focus scope and 1x red dot with ten rounds loaded and weighs 6.5 pounds. How much lighter does a full size AR 15 chassis fighting rifle need to be?



Next picture is a 26" heavy profile 6XC barrel. It is 6.25 pounds without gas lock or gas tube which removed to get actual weight on barrel but as shipped with gas block and tube installed it weighs same as the above finished rifle does with dual optics and loaded. Almost it is an AR 10 barrel but have a 26" AR 15 in vault bet if removed the barrel it would easily top six pounds as well. One thing I will admit holding a 26" 6.5 pound barrel and shooting off hand will wear me out in just a little bit. Makes for man sized poodle shooters and much prefer to ultralight builds people are often chasing.



__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat

Last edited by hueyville; September 27, 2018 at 14:13.
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29, 2018, 17:12   #25
mikeuniform
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 46505
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: FL panhandle
Posts: 61
Carbon fiber and flat bottom???? Think L1A1 feel.

https://www.precisionreflex.com/Deta...86737&CAT=9647

Mine, rifle length with a 20" barrel.

[IMG][/IMG]


However, "The receiver and the rail on forearm are not at the same elevation."
They can machine down a rail for you if needed. The mounted pieces will come off.
mikeuniform is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29, 2018, 18:37   #26
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Realizing had grabbed the Foliage Green Cerakote rather than O.D. Green was getting on my nerves very quickly so yesterday tore the front end off rifle before it forced me to suicide and squirted it with the correct shade of green for my accessories. Reassembled it today, bore sighted at work then resigned it at 75 yards when got home so right back where I was when originally finished it Wednesday but today it's making way more happy plus am a lower parts kit install away from finishing a 12.5" ARP 6.8 build started today. Will finish it tomorrow and have built a jumbo rifle in tiny cartridge and tiny rifle in more jumbo cartridge in a single calendar week. Feeling a build binge coming on.





Have to admit it looks better color matched. Also pulled rear sight back to farthest rear pic slot and nudged scope forward a tad allowing use of iron sights withour removing scope. While trying to focus on front on rear sight plus target with scope cranked to lowest power of 6x is goofy would be better than looking for a wrench to remove scope or even taking time with Leatherman tool to remove if say reticle fell apart and zombies were attacking could either center up in scope and pray or try to use irons through scope and pray. Good thing the Burris scope mounts have a slot added so in a pinch can wrench them off with almost anything from your knife to anything can fit in the slot.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29, 2018, 18:42   #27
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuniform View Post
Carbon fiber and flat bottom???? Think L1A1 feel.

https://www.precisionreflex.com/Deta...86737&CAT=9647

Mine, rifle length with a 20" barrel.

[IMG][/IMG]
What scope is that your running? Looks like one of the Nikon 223 BDC they churn out at bargain prices. Finally found two Nikon scopes I didn't have to throw in a junk box after a few heavy sessions.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30, 2018, 09:28   #28
lockjaw
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 64904
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuniform View Post
Carbon fiber and flat bottom???? Think L1A1 feel.

https://www.precisionreflex.com/Deta...86737&CAT=9647

Mine, rifle length with a 20" barrel.

[IMG][/IMG]


However, "The receiver and the rail on forearm are not at the same elevation."
They can machine down a rail for you if needed. The mounted pieces will come off.
Huge PRI handguard fan here. I have not used the triangular handguard, but I have multiple rifles built on the round handguards. I like the way they handle and handle heat (which is a plus, as I gravitate toward pencil profile barrels).
__________________
“Do right. Do your best. Treat others as you want to be treated.” ― Lou Holtz
lockjaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30, 2018, 10:51   #29
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeuniform View Post
Carbon fiber and flat bottom???? Think L1A1 feel.

https://www.precisionreflex.com/Deta...86737&CAT=9647
$350. AR handguards ??
More power to ya',,,but that would be a big No for me.
Thats almost double what I've got in the barrel,,,lmao
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30, 2018, 12:12   #30
mikeuniform
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 46505
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: FL panhandle
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
$350. AR handguards ??
More power to ya',,,but that would be a big No for me.
Thats almost double what I've got in the barrel,,,lmao
It's mounted on a old PSA "special sale" upper. Had to spend the alloted $$$ somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hueyville View Post
What scope is that your running? Looks like one of the Nikon 223 BDC they churn out at bargain prices. Finally found two Nikon scopes I didn't have to throw in a junk box after a few heavy sessions.
Yep, that's the one, 4X12X40. Still holding up far as I can tell.
Have a cataract in shooting eye so won't make a difference what I put on it till it gets cut out. Still might not make a difference after removal either.

Last edited by mikeuniform; September 30, 2018 at 12:42.
mikeuniform is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30, 2018, 13:02   #31
lockjaw
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 64904
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
$350. AR handguards ??
More power to ya',,,but that would be a big No for me.
Thats almost double what I've got in the barrel,,,lmao
PRI has occassional sales, in addition to LEO/Military discounts.

Just like anything AR related, used parts are plentiful if you are patient. There are no shortage of armchair commandos who dumping items for the next shiniest object.

It I take the time to build, I build with what I like.

One of my old favorite builds, scrubbed and preparing for a fresh rattle can paint job. Buy once, build right the first time.....

__________________
“Do right. Do your best. Treat others as you want to be treated.” ― Lou Holtz
lockjaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30, 2018, 14:37   #32
Right Side Up
Registered
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,541
I have one from this company on an AR15. Very stiff.


https://www.islercustomgunworks.com/custom-parts/
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 01, 2018, 05:48   #33
yovinny
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,909
Flat bottom or carbon could have been nice,, but Huey's $50. 15" US made Gorilla wins out..
Would have ordered it already, but they only take paypal,,so I'll have to harass the boy for one...
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 02, 2018, 08:52   #34
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
$350. AR handguards ??
More power to ya',,,but that would be a big No for me.
Thats almost double what I've got in the barrel,,
Had to go with PRI on a pair of my Mk 12 Mod H clones and though the price stings, what you get is worth it in the long run. Have done Mk 12 clones in Mod 0, Mod 1 and Mod H and all use some high dollar parts but it's how men with skills are using them in the field for 800 meter hook ups while under fire. Unfortunately on my Mk 12 clones it's been hard to pull deals on all parts and usually end up with an $800+ optic on top to boot. PRI handguard, Douglas or Noveske barrel then quality glass and the reason 75th Rangers, Delta and SEAL's like them becomes obvious at the range.


Have junk box builds with under $100 total invested in a running rifle. Have other builds with $400 just in the barrel not counting other parts that compliment a $400 tube. Most of my rifles try to save money every where I can without sacrificing quality. Went through parts locker last week and out of 26 barrels most were White Oak Armament, ARP and Noveske. As said above just wait for people to have sitting for a year or two when realize their Mk 12 clone or other high dollar build is never going to be finished and sell their parts off cheap or find vendor over stock deals. Thats how some of the Mk 12 clones come to life.

Put a Kreiger 24" heavy varmint profile tube that retails for just over $400 on a build last week from a powerbuy where obtained three for $100 each. Went on a $39 DPMS Lo Pro upper and $19 billet lower with $49 handguard and personally tuned Geissele trigger which cost more than entire top end cost minus bolt. Why I have so many parts, buy deals, pile them up and when able to match enough parts to turn out a build or three know they are less than half price of normal retail but sometimes sit years on some parts before find their mates and often have to Cerakote a used handguard or other part to look right or match my build.

Have over a dozen builds with less than $200 invested but are $600 to $750 rifles on current market just had to sit three years on some parts while waited for what was needed to finish the builds. Still sitting on at least a dozen barrels purchased between Black Friday and Dec 31 of 2015. Bought dozens of barrels at 1/4 to 1/3 street price due to huge parts glut on the market and vendors wanting to reduce end of year inventory taxes. So have rifles with $5 or free take offs, $37 to $49 Gorilla Machining and a few with PRI that cost more than some off the rack rifles.

PRI makes some of the best muzzle brakes have ever used, their magazines are top notch and for off hand shooting would rather have their handguard on rifle than most. From the bench, rest or with a glove on don't care much which free float forearm is in my hand. With 10.5" to 18" mid profile barrels the Gorilla are great handguards for the momey. On latest 5.56 24" heavy profile have to admit the M-LOK handguards are meat grinders on a bare hand if shooting off hand. Rifle is about to get a bipod and will hold onto bipod if have to shoot off hand and not wearing a glove.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 06, 2018, 21:37   #35
nvcdl
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1312
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
I bought 2 of these off eBay, one really cheap and the other was right about $50 I think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lightweight....c100037.m2107

They are extremely lightweight but the barrel nut is less than stellar. I'm getting back into the gunsmithing class at the local college so I'm gonna make up a couple of barrel nuts out of 2" aluminum then lighten them up on the mill. I'll see how they turn out.
I ordered one of these $49 9" handguards off of ebay a couple weeks ago. Ordered the nut from a cheaper vendor for about $6.

Plan is to use it on a pistol build with the minimalist S&W upper I got from CDNN. This thing is super light - most of the weight will be in the aluminum barrel nut - handguard itself weighs maybe 2oz.
nvcdl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 08, 2018, 10:54   #36
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Went out the other day with a bunch of Mk 12 Mod 0, Mod 1 and Mod H clone freaks. Was a mix of build the cheapest 18" rifle that resembled a Mk 12 except in the case of 16" Mod H's and hit with a can of flat beigrpe rattle can paint. Others had complete uppers built by companies that repop complete Mk 12's and uppers to the tune of over $2,000 just for the upper but when add up cost of PRI handguard, Gas Buster charging handle, full length picatinny rail, Douglas air gauged barrel and proper muzzle brake/suppressor adapter your in well over a grand in parts not counting bolt carrier group, optics or mounts, much less the suppressor. One shooter had a complete turn-key commercial built Mk 12 Mod H with Nightforce scope, Nodak lower with as proper engraving as possible. Mine are all built on Mag Tactical billet magnesium uppers and lowers which saved me money and weight.

It's amazing how many folks at barfdotcom will bust your chops if do a perfect copy without a properly engraved lower or even one part not correct and say it's not a true clone when once released in the wild operators, field armorers and others made a lot of changes especially when swapping A2 stock versions for collapsible stocks and even forearms based on what base armory had in stock when one comes in for repair. My Mod 0, Mod 1 and Mod H hAve White Oak Armament barrels on two, and Douglas on one and then the backups are even more mixed up but appear correct except for all having AAC 51T Brakeout suppressor adapters instead of the OPP's Inc version because it doesn't work with my can collection.

Was organizing parts locker and found a pair of Noveske 6.8 spc II Lo Pro barrels which one is 18" and realized had not upped my game and done a Mk 12 clone in 6.8. Since I mostly lurk and seldom post at bardotcom have decided to build a Mk 12 Mod H clone in 6.8 spc II and see how many peoples heads spin around all Helter Skelter as in the Exorcist. One thing decided to do is use a correct PRI handguard, charging handle, correct stock, bolt carrier and every part possible except for suppressor adapter and receiver group (SWAT Firearms matched billet set) and do all can to be visually correct, mechanically correct but see how bad the 6.8 cartridge switch freaks out the peanut gallery. Never posted my Mk 12 collection due to zillions of almost copies posted to web already but the 6.8 may be worthy to spark some conversation so popping for a PRI handguard.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 09, 2018, 13:47   #37
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Found another matched set of these SWAT Firearms receivers. This O.D. Green set has a 20" 5.56 HBar barrel with 1:8 twist, Geissele trigger and other good stuff allowing it to easily nest ten rounds of 69 grain SMK's in 1/2" if shooter does his job off the bench.

A lot of people use the big blank flat areas of upper for engraving slogans and sides of lower for logos and artwork. I leave them plain as don't need skulls, flames, etc on my motorcycles or rifles.





The set have set aside is FDE for the 18" Noveske 6.8 spc II Mk 12 Mod H clone but more I look at them more realize they differ enough from milspec M4 will get more whining from the "must be perfect" Mk 12 clone crowd. Found a 20" Bison 0.997 heavy barrel in addition to the 18" Bison heavy that are both made by White Oak Armament and a 20" ARP 3R 22 Nosler barrel could be almost a dead ringer except for color of the 20" HBar built on the green set. These are burly and sturdy receivers that many love and just enough have posted hate that it hurts their value sometimes but this will be my third build on the SWAT Firearms billet and only thing I can find of issue is their goofy name. May as well engraved "Tactical Model" as well on them. The matched sets fit near perfect and have plenty of meat to support a long heavy barrel.

Now am at a quandary as wanted to use these with the Noveske barrel since already FDE and going all FDE on the 6.8 Mk 12 Mod H clone. May have to just pull a set of Aero upper and lowers have in FDE or one of my last two pair of Mag Tactical billet FDE which are real close to milspec in look but some say are fragile though I have built a couple dozen of the sets of which three are my main choices for daily extra truck rifle and on the 10.5" AR pistol in lock behind seat and treated them rough more than a few times and never had any durability issues. So now to decide SWAT, Mag Tactical or Aero for the Mk 12 Mod H clone that will never be perfect as not using correct muzzle device or a Douglas barrel, slumming with a Noveske which is a glorified Pac-Nor.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 09, 2018, 15:58   #38
hagar
Registered
 
hagar's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 228
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 9,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhend170 View Post
You didn't mention what caliber you're shooting. If you're going with 5.56/.223 then just north of 18" of barrel length gets you a full powder burn, and well over 95% of possible velocity. If you look at a velocity chart beyond that point the rate of acceleration starts dropping dramatically, and 20" will get you 99" of what 24" will. If you're using a different caliber, well I'd start with looking at what 4-6 additional inches gains you in velocity, because a groundhog will splatter about the same at 1500fps as it will at 1600.
Not always. I chronoed a 75 grain Amax at 2850 feet/sec out of my 20 inch Douglas NM barrel. That was with 24.7 grains of RL15. My 24 inch Harris varmint upper launched the same bullet with same load at about 3030 feet/sec. I surprised a few people at 1000 yards with that upper, it had better ballistics than the 155 grain Palma bullet..
hagar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 10, 2018, 08:47   #39
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhend170 View Post
You didn't mention what caliber you're shooting. If you're going with 5.56/.223 then just north of 18" of barrel length gets you a full powder burn, and well over 95% of possible velocity. If you look at a velocity chart beyond that point the rate of acceleration starts dropping dramatically, and 20" will get you 99" of what 24" will. If you're using a different caliber, well I'd start with looking at what 4-6 additional inches gains you in velocity, because a groundhog will splatter about the same at 1500fps as it will at 1600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hagar View Post
Not always. I chronoed a 75 grain Amax at 2850 feet/sec out of my 20 inch Douglas NM barrel. That was with 24.7 grains of RL15. My 24 inch Harris varmint upper launched the same bullet with same load at about 3030 feet/sec. I surprised a few people at 1000 yards with that upper, it had better ballistics than the 155 grain Palma bullet.
There are more factors than length at play these days. I have a mix of barrels in same length and cartridge with 6 groove air gauged hand lapped rifling, 5 groove machine button rifling, 5R polygonal rifling and 3R polygonal rifling. The air gauged hand lapped is going to shoot fast but not as fast as 3R in most cases. Have purchased mid grade barrels that shot o.k. and a tad slow which after minimal throat lapping and some careful fire lapping the same tube will shoot 10% faster and more accurately. Sometimes lapping can go the other way on accuracy if overdo it. My overbore cartridges require regular throat lapping or loose accuracy in a matter of a few hundred rounds some times.

Many people don't believe in break in procedures and lapping and to a degree just shooting enough rounds down bore will do the same thing. Only issue is a rough bore will pull off jacket material and foul then if have a rough area in throat then the rounds will actually pull up pieces of steel and wear barrel before it's time. Can't always compare inch for inch and expect it to always be linear when comparing different types of rifling and preperation of bore.

I own 5.56 rifles with Wylde chamber in 12.5", 14.7", 16", 18, 20", 22" and 24". One thing a longer tube also allows is a slightly lazier twist which will still stabilize a heavier bullet and give increased velociry. Have 20" 1:12 barrels that won't stabilize a 62 grain bullet and some that will. Can run 62 grain bullets through my 24" 1:12 tubes and always run true but won't stabilize a 69 or heavier. Can be totally loopy difference in velocity of a 16" 1:8 and 1:9 5R tubes with particular loads. Unless buy same brand barrels chambered with same reamer on same machine the amount of freebore can vary which influences velocity significantly.

In general a longer barrel will shoot faster, will soak up more heat with more steel and if heavier profile even more. If overheat the tube then the longer/fatter bare will take longer to cool. Hot days at the range used to be only place I experienced this till my first prairie dog shoot over an active town. Bareel would heat up to point would have to start passing on shots to not smoke the throat in an expensive custom turn bolt so began carrying two rifles when went out west during summer as always scheduled a day or three to shoot prairie dogs between climbing and bicycling days as made for good rest days on the front range.

Learned as time went on to carry a 24" heavy barrel varmint AR 15 build in addition to my 22-250 turn bolt varmint rifle as the 22-250 overheated quickly. If used the fast lazy 1:12 twist AR 15 223/5.56 with 36 to 50 grain bullets could mop up a large majority of the vermin and swap to the 22-250 bolt rifle for the longer shots and save a lot of throat wear in a super expensive barrel hand lapped in a blueprinted action that had to go to a smith for replace rather than a few minutes with a torque wrench. Actually kill more having the two rifle option and the real velocity change comes when swap to the 22-250.

Another thing to consider is increased velocity does not mean increased accuracy. Long as know your muzzle velocity and 100 yard velocity if have equipment to do that can adjust your bullet drop charts and if you are meticulous in ranging target the inch or two or even ten inch difference in drop won't matter if dope the shot correctly. It is totally odd but often you get more than what you pay for when go with a high dollar barrel and sometimes not so much. Have some Noveske/Pac-Nor barrels that shoot as accurately as many well respected 18" tubes and 18" Novezke/Pac-Nor that out shoot some of my 24" tubes with particular loads but not all loads.

Learning a barrel, its limitations and strong suits in a scientific manner can really improve your shooting. At range when working up loads, measuring velocity and shooting groups often have a temperature probe attached to the barrel to discover what temperature it shoots best at so can determine if need to shoot a few extra fouling shots before shooting groups. Also have learned that some bullet coatings make a huge difference in how consistently a rifle shoots cold bore compared to warmed up. It's not uncommon for heavy bench rest shooters to notice first round will fall six inches low at 1,000 yards than subsequent rounds killing a group. Moly coated bullets were one of the first and still commonly used coatings to reduce erratic groups but dont do much for first cold bore round hitting low..

David Tubbs/Superior Shooting Systems has a proprietary coating that he started using back in 2011 and blew fields away in multiple disciplines till offered his boron nitride bullet coating kits to shooters.

Quote:
Why should you use our Boron Nitride Bullet Coating Kit? Boron Nitride coated bullets offer several distinct advantages over bare or moly coated bullets:

Unlike Moly coating, does not need a wax coating to hold it in place;

Unlike Moly, Boron Nitride has no humidity issues;

Moly out-gasses at around 600 degrees, Boron Nitride out-gasses above 2500 degrees;

Boron Nitride has a lower coefficient of friction than Moly, so it is slicker than Moly;

But the biggest reason to use Boron Nitride on your bullets, the most important advantage Boron Nitride coated bullets have over bare and Moly coated bullets, is that the first shot from a cold, "dirty" barrel will go into the group (of all the subsequent shots). You can't say this about Moly coated bullets, and in David's experience, the first shots using Moly coatings usually go low, and bare bullets are unpredictable.
Until I can toe the line and out shoot David not going to argue and use a lot of his products. My varmint projectiles after being sorted by weight and tips trued in a pointing die get coated using a Tubbs boron nitride coating kit. Between using the coating, good bench habits and learning muzzle, 100 yard and 200 yard velocity on some to refine my shooting apps along with keeping decent range finders and carrying an annenometer if roll up on a group of crows pulling up freshly sprouting corn, ground hog or coyote at longer ranges my first shot cold bore kill ratio is up a solid 60% from before coated bullets, good range finders and quick easy to use apps. Much easier than referring to charts then dialing up the shot when can press a button and get a firing solution like this in seconds so able to launch shot before varmint moves.



Increased hits on long range game or varmints is much bigger than adding a few inches of bore length. Have been making majority of my best shots of a lifetime using 18" tubes from White Oak Armament, Noveske and ARP in AR 15's. With bolt rifle will take all the length practical along a more expensive tube from folks lime Bartlein, Benchmark, Krieger, Hart, Douglas, Shilen and others. Have spent enough money on barrels over a lifetime to support a methamphetamine habit or buy a fancy house. Like my house, don't want a meth habit so guess I will keep buying barrels.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12, 2018, 10:54   #40
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Back to handguards/forearms. Have been gathering parts and had the PRI forearm in cart when began thinking. Am using a big fat billet receiver that is not milspec correct for my 6.8 Mk 12 Mod Huey clone. Using an 18" Noveske barrel which is right length and used a lot under SOPMOD but not in Mk 12's and want this rifle to be a door smashing mini MBR or fat poodle shooter.

Does anyone know of a more burly aluminum forearm that approximates the look of the PRI? Considered machining one from some aluminum tube have laying around and TIG welding the picatinny rail down top but want to be a little less labor and more elegant in the solution. Price is less of an issue than worry about strength. Have worked with a lot of bent aluminum parts in my day but if carbon fiber breaks have a bunch of razor sharp splinters and even a crack takes majority of strength away.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12, 2018, 12:32   #41
the gman
Registered
 
the gman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5179
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NM
Posts: 6,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvcdl View Post
I ordered one of these $49 9" handguards off of ebay a couple weeks ago. Ordered the nut from a cheaper vendor for about $6.

Plan is to use it on a pistol build with the minimalist S&W upper I got from CDNN. This thing is super light - most of the weight will be in the aluminum barrel nut - handguard itself weighs maybe 2oz.
Do you have a link to the barrel nut you bought? TIA
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
the gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12, 2018, 21:41   #42
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
Do you have a link to the barrel nut you bought? TIA
This style?



Or this?



Or something completely different. Can find both under $10 for fine China.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files