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Old April 17, 2017, 21:33   #1
madmax_fal
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AR 10 as an MBR?

First off, my early doctrinal grounding was heavily based on Boston's Gun Bible, which gave the AR a less than flattering review.

But I`m sure that alot has changed since 2002 when my edition was written. FALs, HKs, M1As, they are all the same today as they were then. But ARs (I`m guessing) have probably gotten better in terms of reliability and overall use as a battle rifle. I don't know much about them, but have shot friends ARs a few times.

I wouldn't choose an AR for a first rifle and don't own one right now, but now that I have an HK91 I'm beginning to think about it.

I am not trying to start a "versus" thread here. All I am trying to learn is if a lower priced AR10 could function as an MBR for, say, short patrols and home defense.

Thanks for the input.
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Old April 17, 2017, 22:27   #2
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I thought the AR308 ws developed as an MBR ? My gripe about about the AR308 is the lack of a standardized design, especially w/ the differing magazines.
I think that by 2002 the AR had been proven a reliable design. Maintenance and parts availability receive high marks. Parts availability for the 308 iteration perhaps not so much.

This guy does simple comparison between the FAL & AR308;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQz88Zs4H1o
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Old April 18, 2017, 07:10   #3
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Screw up an AR in 6.8 spc II with good receiver set, barrel squared and White Oak or ARP barrel and bolt. Your MBR just lost three pounds, ammo load out 30% less weight and to 400 yards hits 80% as hard. Every hardcore battle rifle guy have handed a little poodle shooter loaded with 90 grain bonded to 110 grain tipped bullets were freaking amazed and asked for a parts list then borrowed some tools. Watched three people so far replace bolt and barrel on their 300 BO's and carry a 6.8 now. Look at some of the elk taken with a 14.7" carbine then shoot some mid size game animal and will drink the kool-aid. 400 and jumping over 308 to 338. Am finding myself looking at HK91's, AR 10's, CETME's, FAL's, M1a's and putting all in the nostalgia pile. 6.8 and tack driver 5.56 Wylde AR's fill all my under 400 yard issues and past that go to 338 or 6XC in an AR 10 as don't want to lob rounds but drill precise holes. My next AR 10 projects are going to be Kreiger barrels in 7mm-08 to see if it shoots enough flatter and hits hard enough to retire the 338's except for big zombies. There is a reason seeing 30 different AR 15 cartridges now, it's a versitle animal and dead solid reliable. AR 10's are the same if know how to match your parts but don't expect your buddies parts or another brands to swap over as spares. Why I am hesitant on AR 10 as a primary due to lack of interchangeable parts.
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Old April 18, 2017, 07:48   #4
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AR10 for short patrols and home defense?

Sure, why not?

As to spare parts and magazines...choose ArmaLite or DPMS pattern and go to town building (assembling) one.

If one wished to use Pmags, then stick to DPMS or the ArmaLite AR10-A lower receiver.

The AR10-B lower takes ArmaLite GEN2 steel mags which are excellent.
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Old April 18, 2017, 13:04   #5
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Huey,
As usual, you make some interesting even valid points.
On thing you may have missed ; in a 'grid down' situation (of any description), 6.8 availability will be questionable, at best. I'm sure you may be well stocked in your bunker, but should you have to evacuate you'll have only what can be carried(Capt. Obvious).
The upside, should you meet the one guy in 10,000 shooting 6.8, I'm sure you'll have the advantageous barter position. I'd loathe being over run while frantically fidgeting at my reloading bench.

At the ranges where I do or have scavenged in the last ten years, I can pick up 223, 308, 30/06, 30/30, 45acp, 40s&w, 9mm. A smattering of other stuff, but not much. I will add, in this state, due to anti 2AM laws being passed in the last five years, shooting (except perhaps trap shooting ) has dropped off markedly. Admittedly my perspective is somewhat jaundiced.
Granted, people shooting 6.5Cred, 6.8, 338, 25/45 Sharps are probably retaining their brass, but they'll probably leave one behind from time to time.
I'll have to ask around to see if other guys are shooting any of the newer cartridges. Newer cartridges to include the short, and ultra magnums are relatively rare.

For many years, my thinking has been governed by an admonition given to me by 'Uncle Wilie' when I was a stripling ; 'some ammo is better than no ammo'.

For some years now , when asked by someone interested in acquiring a Garand my advice has been to get one in 308, as surplus is still available.
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Old April 18, 2017, 18:14   #6
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For every 6.8 own three 5.56 rifles for moment. If went on long walkabout a 5.56 would go instead. Now have enough 5.56 AR's for a reinforced squad, more than enough 6.8's for a fire team and when finish barrels in stack can do a squad in 6.8. Also can do a squad in combloc and squad in 308 battle rifles. So if an unarmed platoon or two wanders by the house can hook them up and feed them. Building out a pile of 6.8 is easy as the popularity drops. Lots of folks jumped thinking military was going to start using enough to have surplus ammo trickle down. They can't roll their own so just sell their barrels and swap back to 5.56. Lucked out and scored 15,000 unfired primed cases at stupidly silly cheap price and 30,000 pull down 90 grain Gold Dots. With deal on loaded ammo here and there, once fired here and there now have over 20,000 rounds of 6.8. That's a lifetime if world doesn't get flush lever pulled. Because of retail ammo issues buying a low mileage, usually under 200 or under 100 round barrel and bolt once a week. Also finding a couple hundred rounds or so with each. Found a deal on loaded S&B in plain green boxes for 30 cents a round and was able to add a 1,000. Palmetto put the white box 90 grain milsurp ammo on sale one time and ended up with 1,500 rounds of that. Plan to eventually own all the 6.8 ammo. Pinky said we needed it to take over the world. Besides, was just plain tired of piling up rimfire, 5.56, 7.62◊39 and 7.62◊51. Had an empty locker that deserved it's own cartridge.

Find it hilarious when news reports arrest of a suspect with an arsenal in his home "suspect had a pair of AR's, half dozen handguns and over 1,000 rounds of ammo". OMG!!! There have been days where sent over 2,000 rounds down range between sunrise and sunset. Loaded 10,000 IMI M855 projectiles in Lake City brass over the winter in one project. It's a consumable product, volume is necessary. When Wallyworld was clearancing the ZQI could not believe I was going in multiple stores every day and buying more 7.62. Actually ran out of storage room for it at home and had to start stacking at work. It's messed up when have more ammo than space to put it. Wife never complains except when was selling rimfire and 7.62◊39 during Sandy Hook she was worried I was selling too much but at $100 per brick for $9.95 per brick Thunderbolts could not help myself. Anyone willing to pay a c-note per brick of Thunderbolts deserved the crappy stuff. Gave me more room for 6.8. I really need a truck payment or house payment. Once got all of those out of my way just spend the same money on guns and ammo. A monthly house payment buys a lot of bullets. Wife again says better than crack cocaine and whores or gambling in Vegas. Never bought a lottery ticket in my life and every trip to Vegas have a $20 gambling budget. Ten rolls of nickle lasts a long time in the nickle slots and they have high payout odds. Could play every evening for a couple weeks with my nickles. Every nickle lost lamented it as cost of round of reloading a round of ammo with cast bullets.
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Old April 18, 2017, 18:30   #7
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If it throws .30 projectiles downrange at around 2650-2850 fps reliably, then it should fit the role of MBR just fine. Every other feature else will be a VS. argument, and dependent on primary mission requirements. Lots of good choices out there, lots of opinions too.

An entry level AR10-type rifle from a reputable company should fit a regular guy's role in a defensive situation just fine. Better choices? Maybe, but if it's the gun you shoot better and more often than whatever battle-hardened super MBR is the all the rage on whatever website then it is the better choice for you.

As always, YMMV
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Old April 18, 2017, 19:31   #8
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Huey said it in Post #3, The lack of Standard Parts for AR10.

Same with Illurian, the lack of replacement parts really messes up the Large caliber AR, Maybe the Manufacturers should go to making different Length mag well openings, tapered for speed reloading and EVERY other Trick in the book??

Long ago I thought that the Makers would have Outstanding lines for the AR Market By Now, Not so, why? GREED my friends and F@cking Liberals.....
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Old April 18, 2017, 21:40   #9
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Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
Every other feature else will be a VS. argument, and dependent on primary mission requirements. Lots of good choices out there, lots of opinions too.

Better choices? Maybe, but if it's the gun you shoot better and more often than whatever battle-hardened super MBR is the all the rage on whatever website then it is the better choice for you. As always, YMMV
You said a lot. Always see people following the current rage or cool trick toy. My wife shoots one of my massaged SKS's better than any rifle at 100 yards and under. If cross the fence line at our house and she has her "commie gun" don't care if your in a Bradley APC. She will pour 7.62◊39 steel core into a 2" circle till punches a hole and then fills it with ricocheting spall until all people and systems inside are swiss cheese. Are we better off with her putting one or two on the nose of every aggressor with her SKS or cringing and spraying with a big battle rifle? Learned a long time ago a hit with a 22 rimfire beats a miss with a belted magnum.

There are people in robotic lock step that will swear the M1a is best battle rifle ever built. I agree it has exceptional accuracy potential and is reliable but tack driving accuracy falls off without regular rebedding and other maintenance. We have the venerable FN FAL. Will see some guy in Africa with an FAL looks like not had any maintenance or care in 40 years, wrapped with tape and still shoots the three inch group as when rolled off the line. Now we have the SCAR happy folks. Nice weapon if can afford to shoot after buying it along with magazines, replacing trigger and spare parts kit. AR 10, can have six on the firing line and no two share same parts if have to build four out of six. What is biggest rifle a person can shoot effectively, accurately after carrying to the battlefield with ammo load out and kit?

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Originally Posted by ALL FAL View Post
Same with Illurian, the lack of replacement parts really messes up the Large caliber AR, Maybe the Manufacturers should go to making different Length mag well openings, tapered for speed reloading and EVERY other Trick in the book??

Long ago I thought that the Makers would have Outstanding lines for the AR Market By Now, Not so, why? GREED my friends and F@cking Liberals.....
Seems to me all needs to be done is take the accepted AR 15 milspec design and exactly copy each and every part upscale in three different chassis. The original AR 15 where all DI parts fit all DI rifles except a few bastard trick parts. Upscale that to a mid chassis where all manufacturers use same hole locations, thread pitches, Bolt Carrier dimensions, etc to fit the 308 and wide variety of mid size cartridges. Then a third chassis that fits the 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag and similar cartridges again where any upper fits on any lower and other than a follower swap and shape of magazine on odd tapered case body most magazines should feed most rounds. Seems butt @$$ easy to take the drawings and code for an AR 15 and say we are up sizing it 25% and 50% across the board and calling it done.

As to mag well openings have found this simple device to be the most versitle and inexpensive upgrades done to almost every AR 15 build I do.





The Israeli FAB Defense magwell. Gives me a big funnel to hit, works as vertical grip with stock collapsed for close quarters, is light, adds strength to fragile area of lower and under twenty bucks. Also finding the Lancer L5 magazines work with 5.56, 6.8, 458 and more, just can't stuff full with some of the non standard rounds. There are makers out there making unique receiver sets but then have fitment issues with other parts at times. My pet peeve is how much people spend on triggers when I can get a stock trigger to 3.25 to 3.5 pounds with a $9.99 spring kit and a little lapping compound that breaks clean and consistent. Under three pounds is not a battle rifle but becoming a match rifle.

The above rifle is 22 Nosler and shoots 3/4 MOA at 100 and 5/8" at 200 yards and not worked up a load for it yet. Seems like as range increases the bullet settles down and stabilizes better. At 250 yards which is longest measured range fired it at paper had a 1.85" five shot group with a slight inconsistent breeze. Believe it will stay MOA out to 600 yards with a calm day and higher power, better quality pice of glass. Amazing how much the extra 300 fps gives the 223 bullet in heavier weights. Believe I can get amazing results with it using 69 grain SMK's if run through a bullet pointer to get bullet tips perfect, find right powder, uniform all my brass properly and don't burn throat out. It's not a battle rifle and would benefit from a two pound match trigger. About to order another 22 Nosler barrel and send out for a deep salt bath before assembly as keeping round count on this and want to see if melonite will extend throat life.

I love my M1a National Match as a do all fighting rifle. Can pour fire in a hole or put a single round right where it needs to go with a bit of patience. Can run in a sniper role or for suppressive fire. But bad back and passing 50 it seems to have gotten heavier. When took my very first 14.7" 6.8 build out using 90 grain Gold Dots and 110 grain tipped bullets discovered doubling the weight of a standard 5.56 milspec bullet and putting 25% more powder behind it was hitting objects hard. At 250 yards and less I can't see any animal a 7.62◊51 drops with one round not going down with a 6.8. Then weight difference of the little carbine compared to an FAL or M1a is astounding. Screwed up an ARP 18" 3R barrel that gives about an extra 200 fps and realized had a pocket monster. Shame ammo makers are going to let it die unless Nosler necks up the 22 Nosler case to 0.277 where case uses same bolt face as a 5.56 and horsepowers a 270 bullet from a poodle gun and gets SAAMI certification. All the 6.8 spc I chambers still running around have ammo makers afraid to load cartridge to max potential to avoid having a round KaBooming a spec 1 and potential lawsuit. Have to reload to get full potential but an up sized 22 Nosler with SAAMI specifications from day one and loaded to full potential combined with fact works with standard 5.56 bolt might turn the tide.

Am in too deep and fired less than 100 factory 6.8 rounds to swap over to a 6.8 Nosler if appears. First 500 rounds fired were handloads. Discovered with 90 grain bullet H322 is accurate and can be pushed to 1,700 ft lbs of energy. The extra 400 ft lbs of energy is like hitting a target with a 5.56 and a 45 acp at the same time. First time I shot a solid object with a 6.8 and heard the bullet slap the target it was impressive. Scared me so bad wouldn't pull trigger again till found case to check for pressure signs. Primer was flat but not cratered. Next few kept close look at cases then went to busting logs, stumps and rocks at various ranges. Seemed like was hitting twice as hard as 5.56 though wasn't. Now a 6.8 leaves house with me every day and if go defensive will be rifle of choice. The little 14.7" poodle shooters are so light, easy to maneuver and with bullet hitting targets like a bus it's grown on me to point it's hard not to grab as rifle of choice for most circumstances other than varmint sniping. Currently have night vision on two 5.56 and one 7.62◊51. Have a N.V. scope on lay away and a 16" ARP 5R barrel for the build it will mount to. My guess is will become my out into the night with zombies rifle soon as built and proven reliable. Battle rifle is a term long associated with a relatively heavy 308. To me it meant a rifle was competent first reasonably placed round will drop an aggressor immediately in their tracks. I believe that my six-eights will do that thus to me they are a battle rifle even if wearing poodle shooter clothing.
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Old April 19, 2017, 11:06   #10
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Originally Posted by madmax_fal View Post
First off, my early doctrinal grounding was heavily based on Boston's Gun Bible, which gave the AR a less than flattering review.

But I`m sure that alot has changed since 2002 when my edition was written. FALs, HKs, M1As, they are all the same today as they were then. But ARs (I`m guessing) have probably gotten better in terms of reliability and overall use as a battle rifle. I don't know much about them, but have shot friends ARs a few times.

I wouldn't choose an AR for a first rifle and don't own one right now, but now that I have an HK91 I'm beginning to think about it.

I am not trying to start a "versus" thread here. All I am trying to learn is if a lower priced AR10 could function as an MBR for, say, short patrols and home defense.

Thanks for the input.
I own 5 Armalite AR-10's. ALL are rock solid dependable and very accurate rifles. I just bought my son a Armalite DEF-10, an A model that accepts readily available SR25 mags, replaced the .750 gas block with a J.P. A2 post style adjustable gas block, and an Armalite A2 carry handle. Total investment $1122. Rock solid dependable, and accurate. Check out this link.
http://grabagun.com/armalite-armalit...10-308win.html
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Old April 19, 2017, 20:28   #11
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Thank you all for the information!

Specifically, a special "Thank you!" to Huey. The more I read your posts, the more I in awe of you I become. You have a very pleasant and logical writing style, and a vast repertoire of knowledge that you apply in a very relevant and applicable way.

You've got me thinking about 6.8. Alot of cons but a few very good pros. Like I need another thing to think about
Anyway, thanks again for the thorough answer to my question.
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Old April 20, 2017, 05:11   #12
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I have a selection of .308 rifles zeroed and ready to go, but if the Blue Helmets, zombie hordes, or whomever come en masse over the hills and dales to swarm my little homestead my Armalite AR 10B (the one that uses their proprietary steel mags) with a 1x6 power illuminated reticle scope is the rifle I'm going to grab. From flash suppressor to buttplate it is top quality through and through. It is reliable and accurate enough for me, meaning I can put 100 rounds into a realistically sized silouhette target at 100 yards in a group as big as my fist. I keep it in the bedroom with a couple of loaded mags, not locked up in the gun safe. The mags are readily available, competitively priced, and as reliable as any military magazines. Uses many common AR parts but spares are also readily available from Armalite and not overpriced. It is heavy but an upper with a 16" barrel (mine is 20") would remedy that if that were a concern to me, which it isn't. Fixed green buttstock and furniture (a personal preference) and MidWest Industries back up iron sights (A1 front sight post not A2) round out the package.
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Old April 20, 2017, 05:54   #13
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If zombies are past 500 yards my AR 10's in 6XC will be pressed into service fast. If zombies are big and inside the fence my 338 Federal AR 10's will go to work. The two receivers left am toying with 7mm-08. But all lowers, uppers, bolt carriers, firing pins interchange. If six guys show up with AR 10's from different sources and have to swap parts then issues occur. If buy all matching all is good. My issue is cartridge difference but why build two of each. My plan is an AR with stack of mags, combloc with stack of mags, battle rifle with stack of mags and bolt rifle prestationed at each hide or shooting station in the cave. Use appropriate tool for type and range of zombie and before overheat the AR, run a few mag loads of combloc to keep their heads low. Have a friend with three AR 10's in 308 that other than ammo, stocks, buffer tubes and pistol grips seem to not share much of anything else. Mine even share magazines even using three different cartridges.
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Old April 20, 2017, 07:43   #14
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The best SHTF gun is the one you never have to fire.

One the shooting starts, you won't need an MBR, because you won't be in the "main battle." You will be an ambushed one-off kill, and your ass will be dead.

If you are the one who initiates the events involving killing, you might last for a few kills until the whole world is hunting you, and you will still be a dead duck. If the McDonalds clerk hesitates with your fries order,... run.

Once the rest of the world is shooting at you, do you think it really matters whether, alongside your corpse, they find a 5.56 or a 7.62?

As for practical rifle skills, the only rifle that matters is the one that you can feed, and which you are practiced. Rifle skills accounting for about 0.009% of what is important for survival.
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Old April 20, 2017, 08:11   #15
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Gary nailed it. We should be asking how tall of a mule one should have for SHTF. I'd trade any MBR for a harness and drag plow, then be just fine with 870 and 760 pump guns. WAY more realistic.
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Old April 20, 2017, 09:31   #16
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I'm just an armchair pilot but it seems a blend of 5.56 and 7.62 would increase the depth of the battlefield and still provide close quarters ability. Logistics left aside.
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Old April 20, 2017, 11:03   #17
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The best SHTF gun is the one you never have to fire.

One the shooting starts, you won't need an MBR, because you won't be in the "main battle." You will be an ambushed one-off kill, and your ass will be dead.

If you are the one who initiates the events involving killing, you might last for a few kills until the whole world is hunting you, and you will still be a dead duck. If the McDonalds clerk hesitates with your fries order,... run.

Once the rest of the world is shooting at you, do you think it really matters whether, alongside your corpse, they find a 5.56 or a 7.62?

As for practical rifle skills, the only rifle that matters is the one that you can feed, and which you are practiced. Rifle skills accounting for about 0.009% of what is important for survival.
This is the crux of the issue, staying out of the fight long as possible, if starts ending it quickly and having the 99.9% of other things necessary above and beyond guns. People make fun or me having ballistic polycarbonate liners on windows along with closing and locking real shutters. Also have a bunch of scape pieces of steel and 1/4" plywood have spray painted gang graffiti on. Close shutters screw scrap steel and plywood over all ground floor windows and doors. Two doors will look hastily screwed down but can open from inside. While install will tag house to make look like local Hispanic gang bangers already been here. Over a years food for wife and I in house, two years meds for her, I am at four years then life starts to suck if still alive. Four generators, battery stacks and alternative energy. Plan to disable the bridge and vehicle access from main road and surrounding families on the same plan and team. Odds of surviving to use all this more than 30 days. About 10%. Will not keep listing preps but an extended gun battle around your "hide" and hiding has lost its advantage. Another reason own suppressors, less noise made ending a hostile situation the smaller the radius will draw in the next wave. Unless we drop the bridge, block access from main road, all families but three plan to burn out first day and others play well together it won't last once the survivors come out of the city. Got a good lesson in planning after the homeless guy dropped I-75/I-85 through Atlanta. Hope others paid attention.

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Gary nailed it. We should be asking how tall of a mule one should have for SHTF. I'd trade any MBR for a harness and drag plow, then be just fine with 870 and 760 pump guns. WAY more realistic.
Neighbor has two nice tractors, small bulldozer, multiple tillers and between him and I a couple thousand gallons of diesel. Of course can't eat them like a mule if get hungry enough. Meanwhile if our community bands together manufacture of biodiesel needs to start fast.

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I'm just an armchair pilot but it seems a blend of 5.56 and 7.62 would increase the depth of the battlefield and still provide close quarters ability. Logistics left aside.
I collect guns as toys, am not a survivalist. But the rifle a man can feed and shoot is the one he needs. Get free steel cases of 7.62◊39 from local range. Learned to reload them and have to keep my "commie guns" around due to huge pile of 160 grain cast bullets pushed by AA2230 or Reloader 7. Anyone inside our fence are inside "commie gun" range. Would save our other ammo and lob cast bullets from least favorite rifle at most zombies in fence.

This type thread could Segway into mush. So many variables to survival post SHTF. Had three calls today from people thinking it starts the 29th of this month. Bottom line is what WEG says, the rifle you own and can shoot if able to survive the other 99.9% of stuff that's going to kill you. I do ponder the issue and have made my home safe as I can with supplies for more to be done on property. 0dds are a pile of ◊39 and whatever lobs it then AR 15's for next layer and AR 10's/FAL's/M1a's/HK's/etc then the big rifles. Gets to point pick up second and third rifle can measure your long term lifespan in minutes to maybe a few hours. Can't make that much of a splash without drawing flies from miles around. I do it because have nothing else to spend money on and can't take either to my grave. Enjoy having electricity in an ice storm and guns to shoot for fun more than wallet size green pictures on paper. Simple as that, don't believe will survive the onslaught but plan is to send more ahead of me before go down. SHTF it will be more location and lifestyle that ensures survival and I don't live off the grid in Alaska nor do I want to. We all die in the end.
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Old April 20, 2017, 21:20   #18
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Considering the design was adopted by the US, (just a smaller version) i could not imagine why it would not be an MBR.
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Old April 20, 2017, 21:26   #19
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Once the rest of the world is shooting at you, do you think it really matters whether, alongside your corpse, they find a 5.56 or a 7.62?
It certainly does! I don't want my children to be embarrassed to read in my obituary that I died in a pile of 5.56 brass
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Old April 20, 2017, 21:48   #20
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The best SHTF gun is the one you never have to fire.

One the shooting starts, you won't need an MBR, because you won't be in the "main battle." You will be an ambushed one-off kill, and your ass will be dead.

If you are the one who initiates the events involving killing, you might last for a few kills until the whole world is hunting you, and you will still be a dead duck. If the McDonalds clerk hesitates with your fries order,... run.

Once the rest of the world is shooting at you, do you think it really matters whether, alongside your corpse, they find a 5.56 or a 7.62?

As for practical rifle skills, the only rifle that matters is the one that you can feed, and which you are practiced. Rifle skills accounting for about 0.009% of what is important for survival.

You take the fun out of everything.
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Old April 20, 2017, 21:55   #21
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Most large frame ARs appear to be precision, DMR or spotter pieces. M110, LMT MWS, OBR.

The FN SCAR-H has more going for it, IMO.
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Old April 20, 2017, 22:34   #22
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I sold both of my scar 17s, the ambi mag release would have gotten me if I ever got in a hurry, the second time I accidentally dropped a mag at the range was the end of them. I have a 16 in armalite lightweight that isn't heavy enough to tell the difference, however you can tell the difference in recoil. My 11yr old can control a mag dump and the controls are what my hands remember. The VA fucked my memory but not my hands.
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Old April 20, 2017, 22:36   #23
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multi-use rifle is a bettermoniker than mbr. civvies are not going to battle. for a walk around / car / general purpose rifle the ar15 carbine goes. there is nothing in north america i cannot kill with it.
sometimes the fal goes. the fal fills the big game hunting niche well and i still like extra punch of the 7.62 thru cover.
otherwise i prefer lever rifles. the savage 99 is really growing on me.
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Old April 21, 2017, 06:34   #24
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I sold both of my scar 17s, the ambi mag release would have gotten me if I ever got in a hurry, the second time I accidentally dropped a mag at the range was the end of them. I have a 16 in armalite lightweight that isn't heavy enough to tell the difference, however you can tell the difference in recoil. My 11yr old can control a mag dump and the controls are what my hands remember. The VA fucked my memory but not my hands.
My issue is that for price of two SCAR's with battle optics, mandatory spare parts and pile of 7.62 ammo to feed them I can put back four nicely equipped AR 15's and 20,000 rounds of 5.56 ammo. Unlimited budget and then can make whatever decision you want. My thinking is if enough of my neighbors survive and form a cohesive cooperative someone will have to arm the hive and feed the rifles. Majority will be better able to operate a lower recoil rifle and if have the people four houses in each direction equipped they are likely to make first contact before zombies reach my house. Can't pass out AR 10's, FAL's, HK's or SCAR's and expect most to use them efficiently.

Family next door two sons did military service with one having two tours in Afganistan. The father shot four deer in back yard with a Remington 700 bolt action this season. Had to track all and one he shot at sunrise before I left for first church service and was still walking lake shore trying to find it when got home after third service. He eventually found it bled out half mile away in a creek. The sons each shot a deer which was DRT. They have the 700 turn bolt, a lever action 30-30 and a pair of 22 rimfire between them all. Do I give the father an MBR? They will cooperate long as I can keep water to the houses and some electricity. They will be really confused if kill me and try to make my Frankenstein equipment run. Making myself useful to the community is best defense. Kill me and will reach in somewhere, short a capacitor and be dead. I like capacitors without bleed off resistors. Army son, maybe an MBR but most likely hand Army son an AR and rest of family combloc's with which can keep fed for some time.

MBR, poodle shooter or GE Chain Gun... Any of us that live in a reasonably urban area will have to form alliances with neighbors or fight them 24/7 as they get hungry. Since hurt my back without asking, my neighbors take turns keeping my grass cut. Four years since I tried to push a lawn mower. Those three families can likely work with, one family farms and runs heavy equipment, other gardens and shoots squirrels out of pecan trees and third hunts deer entire season. Brothers two doors down are both Iraq War veterans, have night vision, suppressors and some toys I would not want due to potential legal issues. Have some big fun with them July 4th and New Years, believe they will be cooperative if my water pumps bring water to their house. Which rifle is your personal primary is decision number 1,578 in order of important decisions to make surviving a post apocalyptic event.

My battle rifle will be the smallest possible to do the task at hand. Sniping a squirrel or two for stew with a 308 won't make much stew, a 22 rimfire with a can and nobody knows we have fresh squirrel and dumplings on the stove. If zombies engage two houses down the big 7mm or AR 10's in 6XC will bark occasionally to help keep the fight two doors down. Most people over simplify and confuse the logistics of surviving long term of a short fight with a single group of aggressors. Surviving one fight is day two...
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Old April 21, 2017, 21:12   #25
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for a walk around / car / general purpose rifle the ar15 carbine goes. there is nothing in north america i cannot kill with it.
Except an enemy at long range in thick cover. That's sort of the point of an MBR, because you are right that an Ar15 will do almost everything else.
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Old April 22, 2017, 08:04   #26
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Two is one and one is none and Mr Murphy is a motherfucker so prepare accordingly. In today's world, I think if things go sideways we will be surprised how much body armor is around as well as how quickly societies civilivilized vernier will disappear. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime, but if it does I pray that I am prepared enough, and that I have taught my sons the skills they need.

While a 5.56 may handle anything in North America in theory, take a look around at your daily surroundings and ask your self if it will penetrate what can be used for cover everytime and still do enough damage to immediately stop the threat. Or better yet buy yourself some tracers and try shooting through some bushes at a target. You will be shocked how little it takes to deflect the round off target. I'm not saying the round isn't useful and effective, just be familiar with its limitations.

Professionally mechanics have huge toolboxes full of specialized tools for a reason, don't fool yourself into thinking you can rebuild an engine with a socket set from Walmart. For disassembling something when tools aren't readily available the biggest hammer you can swing is usually the best choice.

As far as taking game, making noise with a firearm isn't nessecary unless you're inept. Man fed his tribe for thousands of years without them. Food source animals are by no means smart, most have a brain the size of a walnut or marble and are very predictable in their behavior, of course so are men. Take the time to learn how to make and set traps,there are tons of videos on YouTube. Go buy a wrist rocket and a bag of marbles and practice with it. It's very quiet and as a kid I took more squirrels and rabbits with one than I could count.

The best way to win a fight is to not get in one.


I'm sorry for the hung over ramble, carry on.
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Old April 22, 2017, 17:23   #27
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Two is one and one is none and Mr Murphy is a motherfucker so prepare accordingly. In today's world, I think if things go sideways we will be surprised how much body armor is around as well as how quickly societies civilized vernier will disappear. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime, but if it does I pray that I am prepared enough, and that I have taught my sons the skills they need.

While a 5.56 may handle anything in North America in theory, take a look around at your daily surroundings and ask your self if it will penetrate what can be used for cover every time and still do enough damage to immediately stop the threat. Or better yet buy yourself some tracers and try shooting through some bushes at a target. You will be shocked how little it takes to deflect the round off target. I'm not saying the round isn't useful and effective, just be familiar with its limitations.

Professionally mechanics have huge toolboxes full of specialized tools for a reason, don't fool yourself into thinking you can rebuild an engine with a socket set from Walmart. For disassembling something when tools aren't readily available the biggest hammer you can swing is usually the best choice.

As far as taking game, making noise with a firearm isn't necessary unless you're inept. Man fed his tribe for thousands of years without them. Food source animals are by no means smart, most have a brain the size of a walnut or marble and are very predictable in their behavior, of course so are men. Take the time to learn how to make and set traps,there are tons of videos on YouTube. Go buy a wrist rocket and a bag of marbles and practice with it. It's very quiet and as a kid I took more squirrels and rabbits with one than I could count.

The best way to win a fight is to not get in one.

I'm sorry for the hung over ramble, carry on.
I went looking for one simple picture of some traps then mentioned a full tool box and look what Pandora's Box you opened... I am not hung over, don't drink and not taking pain pills today so I have zero excuse other than mad as a hatter. At least I only posted about 1% of it or the internet would break forever.....

Lets say Walter Mitty's daughter had a bastard son with Forrest Gump's son the genetic mutation could quite possibly cause something like this to happen. I am not a prepper, survivalist or paranoid. My grandmother called it plain ol fashioned CRAZY. That was my grandmother who is supposed to say nice things about her genetic heritage. Bring on the flames, I opened it up for the full on napalm run from you boys.

These are so anything that moves through the bush, zombies or food at most lets out a yelp to let us know to check the trap line.



These are some MBR's so post doesn't totally Segway the thread though that was toast a while back.



CETME may be the penultimate zombie smasher.



Stick a can on it and this is a zombie muncher too. I want to see brains!



Zombie killing MBR SCAR is invited to the party. He has other flavors as well.



Unsure if zombies deserve execution via the grace and elegance of a pristine L1a1.



These are for the folk that an MBR is too big so that they have a selection of appropriate size tool for the job.







Flaming Pig wants to BBQ some zombies.



Bronze, green, bronze. The pig likes to spew zombie death even if they have hard shells.



22 Nosler for cracking zombie heads open long before we waste MBR ammo.



For night zombies.



These say zombies will have to earn crossing my fence line.



This and four others say my fence will keep its power up.



Lots of these say can run in silent mode for extended periods of time without generators, sunlight or wind.



A couple of these say the voltage doesn't sag.



A dozen of these in NIJ Level III++ say if my homies show up zombies will have to shoot us with something bigger than an AR 15 to get us totally out of the fight quickly. My really hate to wear version says you better have a 338 Lapua. Thats if you draw us out of our hides...





Lots of this and other items thus tested means zombies will have to work hard before vests are even an issue.





If outer layer is compromised and vests become important this ensures our nads are protected as well.



The more I think about it, I like my nads, doubling then triple down on some nad protection.



Many stacks of these with rifles and ammo to match mean you will have to work to pass any of my neighbors who cooperate before even getting into range on my hide.



Lots of this say we will be well clothed and pictures of food just look like sealed steel cans.



Clothing is even fire proof. Not being on fire is important. Would have you ask the folks in Waco but they all turned into crispy critters.



Lots of these in every size means fire gets smothered fast.



Lots of this means we don't get cabin fever after months of being quiet in a hide. And the other meds and kits means we can try to stay healthy.



Lots of these mean if zombies get to close to fence or cross we can be as quiet as possible in eradication.









If these are the storm doors and storm windows just imagine prying open the primary entry points.





We know how to lock a door.



Cab of the zombie stomping truck to get me home if at work when the party starts.



Another option is grab the kit(s) and go for a walkabout.





Even our little girls can shoot stuff, drive tractors and gut zombies and such.



Of course situational awareness might aid in mitigation of zombies sneaking up on a hide.



And here are where the normal people talk trash on radar hacking for fun and profit.



We need to know what our Uncle Sam is doing about the zombies...



And yes, we do live in a cave.



Many boxes of these mean we won't have to stop and push bullets into magazines very often.



In case we do have to load magazines, much ammo is loaded on strippers ready to shed rounds.



And yes, we can keep them fed.





Primers are the key to ignition. Must have more....



If all else fails and zombies get in the house, meet Old Ugly



Please don't tell me this isn't normal.



So its as simple as pondering which rifle to pick up? I am putting on three layers of armor and piling two dozen rifles and twice as many pistols up around me.
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Old April 22, 2017, 19:24   #28
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The average dude on the internet would last about 15 minutes in boots and armor, and carrying 30 pounds of additional equipment at a quick pace on a hot summer day before he got light headed.
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:03   #29
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yanno, long range shooting generally does'nt happen in thick cover, just sayyin. new mexico has a huge range of terrain / veggies, from bare desert to thick forests. long range shots are possible but you better have a damn good reason to shoot someone at long range cause that ain't self defense.
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:05   #30
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The average dude on the internet would last about 15 minutes in boots and armor, and carrying 30 pounds of additional equipment at a quick pace on a hot summer day before he got light headed.
This. If they last that long.

Me? I'm screwed as I can rarely even stand up without getting dizzy enough to feel like I'm falling down. Wars are fought by young'uns. Park this old guy on a hill over looking the town and when the zombies stop falling over and the bullet's crack silences, send up another old guy to pick up where I left off.
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:27   #31
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It was raining today at the range.

While I was stowing gear from the firing line to my car, I was moving quick-pace when I tried to jump the puddle in front of the porta-John. I got a sharp pain in my side mid-leap. That sure slowed me down. Mighty proud though that nobody noticed at the time, an I didn't go down in the piss-puddle. It was close though.

Will try again tomorrow if I can get my legs under me.
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:42   #32
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This. If they last that long.

Me? I'm screwed as I can rarely even stand up without getting dizzy enough to feel like I'm falling down. Wars are fought by young'uns. Park this old guy on a hill over looking the town and when the zombies stop falling over and the bullet's crack silences, send up another old guy to pick up where I left off.
You know the quote us old guys use... "Experience and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance" Or something like that,
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:50   #33
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Climbed a 200 foot water tower in level IIa armor and Dyneema special threat plates with harness on, stainless steel cable ascender self-arrest device along with a dry dummy load, new 17 foot omnidirectional metal dipole, new hard line connector, intallation kit in case existing was damaged, new 20 foot 1/2" Heliax jumper along with mastic compound, tape and basic set of hand tools all totalling 45 to 60 pounds first really warm week recently. Thunderstorm sprung up and zapped the antenna. Decade ago 10 minutes once unlocked ladder guard to top but now it's 25 minutes knowing to stop and rest before heart rate has gotten out of target zone. Use a heart rate monitor to set pace, not a clock or how I felt. Suggest all buy a watch with heart rate function and learn your limit before hit point of lactic acid poisoning your muscles faster than body can purge it.

Anytime I do anything extremely physical put it on and when alarm chips immediately slow down or stop and rest. Once body hits point of overdosing on lactic acid it's too late and you will totally shut down. Would rather slow down and increase risk than not and five minutes later become a totally immovable and "proverbial" sitting duck. Also as heart runs away, somdoesmability to place accurate shots. Stimpy knows most of us that live on Lake Lanier have very steep back yards to Army Corp of Engineers lakefront. Don't always get chance every week but at least two to three weeks a month put daypack on filled with water bottles. Walk from house to lake and back at steady pace, not fast or slow and when monitor says am breaking my threshold stop long enough to pour out one bottle of water and continue. My multifunction altimeter/watch/heartrate monitor keeps me honest on rate of ascent and decent as going downhill too fast is worse than uphill. When last bottle of water is empty keep moving till chirps again and go into cool down phase. My half speed of ten years ago is still faster than most men 15 years younger than me but nothing like when humped my ruck and often a sick clients ruck on the Inca Trail in the Andes usually at 12,000 to 16,000 feet before turning toward base camps, high camps and summits.

Planned to guide till age 60 but car accident shut that part of life down in 2007. Doesn't mean I don't try to stay semi active. Also why tell most people their idiots to buy a kit with steel plates or older military SAPI plates. Switching to Dyneema knocked 18 to 22 pounds off per kit. One five minute period of fast moving the extra 20 pounds of armor will kick most people's @$$. Why do you think so many troops pull plates out of kits. Weight slows you down and a slow target is a dead one. My plan is to work from a chair with rifle on a table. Not go for a walkabout with my kit. Let electronics and devices fill role of patrolling by letting interlopers walk into hell. Not meeting them half way. Know your limitations. If not run in your kit with rifle and ammo loadout with water, IFAK and other essentials recently or ever, do it tomorrow and see if can make it out of rifle range before have to sit down.
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Old April 22, 2017, 20:53   #34
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This. If they last that long.

Me? I'm screwed as I can rarely even stand up without getting dizzy enough to feel like I'm falling down. Wars are fought by young'uns. Park this old guy on a hill over looking the town and when the zombies stop falling over and the bullet's crack silences, send up another old guy to pick up where I left off.
Yep, when my moat is breached, it is over and I know it. Why my moat continues to get deeper with more alligators.
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