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View Poll Results: Which engine is best suited for a EMP proof / resistant truck engine
454 CI 7.4L Big Block Chevy engine with no electronics 3 12.50%
6.2L Diesel turbo or non turbo mechanical fuel injection no electronics 15 62.50%
Something of my own design or choice will talk about it in the thread 6 25.00%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 06, 2017, 22:32   #1
NFADLR
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For a EMP proof OK (resistant) vehicle engine

Here are two options that come to mind.

Keep in mind I'm thinking of a full sized chevy truck..

#1 7.4L Big Block Chevy engine or less horse power a 5.7L small block Chevy engine, without a computer, for simplicity a single or dual point distributor a simple 12 VDC starter and a simple holley four barrel carb.

#2 A 6.2L diesel engine with or without turbo no electronics only electrical not electronic component is the starter.
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Old May 07, 2017, 00:37   #2
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Whatever you decide on, you'll need to maintain the batteries state of charge with a generator, not a alternator. And as to the carb, I'd use a Rochester Quadrajet or Carter AFB instead of the Holly. Fewer leak potential and the Carter is easy to service on the engine.
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Old May 07, 2017, 08:58   #3
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Most reliable motor have seen beyond a steam traction engine that can run off wood, coal, hay, dried cow manure and any combustible material is the Cummins 3.9L 4BT engine. Mechanical fuel pump, no electronics, over 400 ft lbs of torque, mechanical fuel pump and if park on a hill or able to push will run with zero electricity. The four cylinder version of the venerable all mechanical version of the 5.9L Cummins it proves itself daily as an industrial emgime. Back around 2004 helped an engineering student (amazing how many M.E.'s end up going to work at Cummins after N.A.T.S.) shoehorn a 5.9L H.O. into a 2WD Dodge Dakota. Entailed setting back good portion of firewall and moving radiator, intercooler, batteries and more into the bed, thus was only good as a two passenger high mileage torque making beast. He used an electronic controlled engine giving option of remapping and tuning along with many other modifications to produce over 900 ft lbs of torque. Was a hoot to ride, came off the line like a rocket and the weight combined with tubing rear fender wells for wide tires stayed firmly planted for quarter mile shots then got over 25 mpg on the interstate of feathered the throttle.

That project got me very interested in a similar conversion of something and then saw a Jeep Cherokee with a Cummins 3.9L 4BT and realized it was close to the perfect vehicle. Was so into steam engines, antique tractors and hot rods never moved forward with the project and now seems like too much when have a good Dodge 3/4 ton 4×4 Cummins, a GMC Topkick 6×6 with Caterpillar and two magneto fired 1950's model single cylinder Harley S Series "Hummers". They get 80 mpg on mix fuel and the Cummins or Cat could be fed homebrew biodiesel just keep it clean. Back to the 3.9L 4BT, its used for everything from generators to forklifts, logging equipment (roughest duty know of), marine engines (most corrosive conditions know of) and everything in between. There are some fine older choices from MTW if lived in Europe. Their newer engines are like VW diesels and have lots of electronics. Done a fair amount of service work on VW Tourig with a Bently V10 diesel and love the vehicle but would last about a week on dirty fuel and is a boat anchor without two well charged batteries.

My choice for most reliable post SHTF would be a 4×4 Dakota size truck or Jeep SUV with a well done Cummins 3.9L 4BT. Meanwhile will have to get by with what I have, two small two wheelers and two big diesel trucks. Actually plan to park them end to end in front of the house as an additional barrier between me and the world along with the big 4×4 360 gas burner which would suck way too much fuel to use and likely still keep the little 4×4 Dakota running with protected critical spare electronic parts if had to move about. Has a multihit 9mm rated police cruiser armor package in doors and other features such as run flat tires. The old thing has 300k on its 6 cylinder gas motor and keeps sipping fuel getting me to job site after job site. Speaking of which, have helper about to pick up and need to get moving as still way behind. Otherwise staying put if SHTF.
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Old May 07, 2017, 09:33   #4
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Something with a 4BT as mentioned above, or a 53-Series Detroit (3-53, 3-53T, 4-53, 4-53T) - which are more durable and will run on a wider variety of fuels than the Cummins and don't have sensitive injector pumps.
My personal preference for a vehicle is a WC-52 or M37...

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Old May 07, 2017, 09:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
Here are two options that come to mind.

Keep in mind I'm thinking of a full sized chevy truck..

#1 7.4L Big Block Chevy engine or less horse power a 5.7L small block Chevy engine, without a computer, for simplicity a single or dual point distributor a simple 12 VDC starter and a simple holley four barrel carb.

#2 A 6.2L diesel engine with or without turbo no electronics only electrical not electronic component is the starter.
Why the 454? Full size chevy will run with a 383 and is lighter & easier to work around under the hood.
Mine is a 1975 3/4 ton GMC 4wd & has a 400 s/b & it hits the scales at 6000 lbs + . No issues with that s/b pulling the truck around. Mine is getting tired so when it comes time to rebuild, I have the parts for a 383 in the garage.
492 or 186 heads are your first choice, they'll give you just under 9:1 C.R. with a std production flat-top piston which was sitting under the 76cc chambers.
Nobody wants the old cast-iron anymore, they can be found very cheap. I paid $200 a pair for a set of 492 & a set of 186 castings. I was given a complete 1978 L-82 corvette 350, nobody wants them anymore. All I had to do was get it out of the shed & it was mine for free.
I use the reproduction ram horn manifolds on mine rather than headers, a bit of blending and they work fine. I've never turned the engine in mine past 4500 rpm, no need for headers & the cast iron will do the job up to about 4500 rpm.
If you plan on dual exhaust? A BALANCE TUBE ON THE EXHAUST < this is mandatory. Don't do it and you just gave away at minimum 30 ft lbs of torque over dual exhaust. I put a balance tube on mine, the difference is beyond words.
If you must have a 454, make sure you use the passenger car heads (oval port). Rectangle port heads intake volume is just too big for most of what you'd be doing with the truck, the late peanut heads are just too restrictive.
Oval port is fortunately the most common & easiest to find, ditto for the intake manifolds. It also means its the lowest cost.
Also remember there's open & closed chamber heads which means it is MANDATORY you use the correct pistons.

I'd stick with the chevy, much easier to deal with, parts are everywhere.
Autozone has points distributors available right now if you wish to change over from HEI. Pull the HEI distributor and drop the points dist in, change the plug wires and that is done. You'll need to tie the points into the key side of the HEI plug but that's easily done. You can find an HEI dist in the boneyard and cut that off & use it as a plug.
I would not worry about attempting to add in the starting side feature from the starter relay, it is not needed.
Std GM alternator has just a couple weak points in front of EMP. The integral regulator & the diode bridge. Spares for those are available just about anywhere, low cost to purchase, & easily stored safe from EMP.

I wouldn't bother with a 4 barrel, if you're bound & determine to have one, 3310 holley is the best bet. Simple, works well and the only reason they have a reputation for leaking is people overtorque the fuel line connection & try to reuse the float bowl gaskets or don't seat them properly.
If memory serves me correctly they come stock with either the blue or yellow spring on the secondary, I forget what color is the first tension down from that, try the stock & if the secondaries don't opencheck the power valve FIRST, then go down one size on the spring tension.
I've had a 4 barrel for 20 years on mine but finally realized I simply don't need it. I use a holley 500 cfm two barrel and it does everything I need & gives better mileage. There is also now the option of the large-base rochester 2 barrel, they're remaking those and they are anvil reliable.
Had I known the large-base was available again I probably would have gone with that, I thought the holley 500 cfm was the only option out there.

Q-jet is still the king for mileage with a 4-bbl, unbeatable. But damned hard to work on, they are complicated creatures. It is why I always ran holley, much easier to deal with and close enough on the mileage. Truth be told mileage on tanks like these isn't the primary concern but it does help given gas prices.

Propane is an option for gas engines, propane speaks for itself as to it's advantages.

Add edit: a 383 s/b with 186 or 492 heads, 9:1 c.r. and 214 duration on the cam. Either a holley 500 cfm 2bbl or the large base rochester will give you close or at 450 ft lbs @ 3000 rpm.
To put that in perspective, the LS-6 made 500 ft lbs.
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Old May 07, 2017, 12:25   #6
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Have a few alternators in reserve in large ammo cans turned into Faraday boxes with copper braid replacing the usual rubber seal and lined with triple thick cardboard on the inside.


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Whatever you decide on, you'll need to maintain the batteries state of charge with a generator, not a alternator. And as to the carb, I'd use a Rochester Quadrajet or Carter AFB instead of the Holly. Fewer leak potential and the Carter is easy to service on the engine.
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Old May 07, 2017, 17:26   #7
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I vote 7.3 Ford (Navistar) non-turb diesel. I just like them.
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Old May 07, 2017, 18:02   #8
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I've got 2 brand new in the box Rochester Q-jets in factory packaging that never had fuel in them.

They are calibrated for a chevy 350 in a 4 x 4 from the late 70's to very early 80's.

PM me and i'll post them iin the vendor section if there is any interest.

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Old May 07, 2017, 18:07   #9
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Years ago I knew a US Army LTC (that had good reason to be aware of EMP problems) that mentioned some "informal" EMP testing had been done to US manufactured cars & trucks.
His advice at the time was to buy a Ford diesel pick-up.
He also mentioned that the only US Helicopter to have been EMP tested was the UH-1 Huey (early models, before all the electronics were added to the flight controls).
So I did a little digging and I think this article covers the testing done to auto's and trucks, plus gives a bit more insight into the question of EMP and your ride..

EMP Effects on Vehicles

by Jerry Emanuelson, B.S.E.E.

Futurescience, LLC

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html

Richard
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Old May 07, 2017, 19:01   #10
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Whatever you choose make sure you add armor. If your vehicle operates when others don't, you will be an immediate "interest" of everyone.
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Old May 07, 2017, 19:15   #11
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Would need a recalibrate for a 454 if they are even the correct cfm but EM me what pics info and specs you have.

EM me thru the forum here at the drop down to the left of my posts.

Thanks

Thanks AGP for that info.

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I've got 2 brand new in the box Rochester Q-jets in factory packaging that never had fuel in them.

They are calibrated for a chevy 350 in a 4 x 4 from the late 70's to very early 80's.

PM me and i'll post them iin the vendor section if there is any interest.

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Old May 07, 2017, 19:25   #12
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Sorry brother NFADLR~ss

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Old May 07, 2017, 19:55   #13
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Sorry brother SS but from this angle you can't see the digital dash of Freds car.

It would get totally smoked in the event of an EMP!!


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Old May 07, 2017, 21:44   #14
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Something with a 4BT as mentioned above, or a 53-Series Detroit (3-53, 3-53T, 4-53, 4-53T) - which are more durable and will run on a wider variety of fuels than the Cummins and don't have sensitive injector pumps.


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Old May 08, 2017, 03:46   #15
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Carburetors are a funny thing as everyone has a favorite. Have had many Holley's and the only units that gave me good service were two barrel heavy truck units. Have watched 100's of people put Holley's on and chase leaks, and tuning issues till got running correctly then suffer from low fuel milage (very important). As mentioned above a Carter AFB is easy to set up and generally gives few issues and parts are abundant in junk yards, garages and should be in your kit. My preferred carburetor on a small or medium gas burner is an Edelbrok 4 barrel with its small primaries if grandma it around gets great fuel mileage and then secondaries will dump enugh fuel/air to get you gone quickly. Most run out of the box just fine and occasionally require a two screw adjustment to get tuned. Prefer the electronic choke version just have some extas put back in event an EMP were to damage but seem to believe that would be your last issue with most any gas burner as the distributor, whether points or electronic, alternator (agree a generator would be better) and other electronics would be bigger issues but clean, non oxidized gasoline will become a huge issue in a few months.

If going with gasoline would look at a Toyota with 20R or 22R engine. Can keep them running with paperclips, bubble gum and duct tape. Parts are still everywhere for the old four bangers. Still sticking with a 4 cylinder mechanical diesel due to the ability to make fuel easily. Can be done for a gas burner but better have already replaced every seal, gasket and o-ring to run on high alchohol content moonshine. For many making corn liquor to run a vehicle on may be much easier if live in the corn belt. I am thinking unless live in rural Kansas or similar not going to be clear roads left to navigate so a small magneto fired motorcycle would give easiest maneuverability through abandoned cars in road system.
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Old May 08, 2017, 08:41   #16
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Here in the Midwest cash for clunkers, high scrap prices and meth eliminated most of the older vehicles from the parts pool. Personally I have an m1009 sitting in the drive that I just got done restoring and a spare electrical system for it in an emp proof box in the basement. Creek beds, bike trails and railroad lines, will you can get about anywhere in my state.
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Old May 08, 2017, 14:36   #17
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Here in the Midwest cash for clunkers, high scrap prices and meth eliminated most of the older vehicles from the parts pool.
Cash for clunkers was a con to prop up the auto industry, drive up cost of good used vehicles and remove majority of used parts sources from circulation.
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Old May 08, 2017, 17:55   #18
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Old May 08, 2017, 18:50   #19
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i have a 1976 ex-military M880 3/4 ton 4x4 Dodge Power Wagon that i keep as a back-up vehicle. 318 motor, ( they run forever ) 727A transmission that was beefed up, no emission control crap, early electronic distributor which is easily replaced with points and condenser set-up if needed. Carter BBD carb, mechanical fuel pump and you can change alternator or starter in 20 minutes.

i also keep a lot of common spare parts on hand. so far in the 26 years i've had it only had it towed one time, can't bitch about that.
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Old May 18, 2017, 19:02   #20
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I like the 454 idea but our modern gas is only good for a few months and the ethanol is hard on vintage engines. So I voted for some kind of old mechanical diesel. Nobody mentioned a rabbit diesel. You could build a rally type rabbit diesel that would go places a bigger rig wouldn't. You could import an older Defender 110. Hmmvs are also hitting the auction blocks.

In any case, the mechanical diesels are amenable to bio diesel or grease car conversions.
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Old May 18, 2017, 20:44   #21
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Just a question but will a battery kill switch that disconects the battery from the motor stop the effects of emp? If it takes a nuke blast to induce a power surge to fry your electronics then what if there is no battery to surge?
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:14   #22
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BJ, no and no.

No in that the battery does not induce a emp event, From what I have read the emp works on Electronics like a radio signal on an antenna to a certain degree, as the emp travels thru the air and does damage where it finds any electronics.

If there are no electronics and or it cannot find any electronic devices in that they are shielded and or grounded well enough that would mean inside any Faraday box / cage, meaning the Faraday cage is insulated from any device inside it insulated well with a space around the inside read cardboard and a rubber / epoxy coating to insulate from a direct electrical contact and a distance electrical contact as well I figure at least 1/2 inch.

I use a huge ammo can (chest) with triple thick cardboard glued to the inside of the box.

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Just a question but will a battery kill switch that disconects the battery from the motor stop the effects of emp? If it takes a nuke blast to induce a power surge to fry your electronics then what if there is no battery to surge?

To those that wonder why I would desire to use a mark IV Big Block Chevrolet engine, I have a sh¡t ton of parts for that series engine that I would require duplicating if I went with any other series engine.

Although I so have some small block 350 Chevy etc parts I have to move, valve covers cast aluminum MT, harmonic balancer etc.
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:32   #23
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It's just me, I just don't understand a radio spike that can produce more than three volts it takes to operate electronics. I can see a spike comming from the battery where the power is and even while your vehicle is charging while moving but it doesn't make sense that something with no power is fried.

In the past they said electronics that had tube in their system were not fried by emp which to me means the spike is in the circuit boards.

Yet this Faraday cage doesn't make sense either because your vehicle is metal and surrounds your electronics.

What does make sense is the old cars don't have power on all the time like today's rigs, today's rigs never shut down unless it has no battery. Think how powerful a radio signal would have to be to fry the boards in electronics. Now I can see a pulse that is magnified by the power in the vehicle but a vehicle or electronic with no power would seem extremely difficult to pulse.

I guess I am just too dumb to get it...
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:34   #24
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Just a question but will a battery kill switch that disconects the battery from the motor stop the effects of emp? If it takes a nuke blast to induce a power surge to fry your electronics then what if there is no battery to surge?
The paper listed in post #9 above addresses your question a little.

Short answer, motor off, not connected to power reduces chances of having issues from EMP.

Also which direction your vehicle is pointed when the thing goes off, head on not good, ass end better???

In public, in a city, would not wish to have the only vehicle running.
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:39   #25
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The paper listed in post #9 above addresses your question a little.

Short answer, motor off, not connected to power reduces chances of having issues from EMP.

Also which direction your vehicle is pointed when the thing goes off, head on not good, ass end better???

In public, in a city, would not wish to have the only vehicle running.
Electronics are on all the time in most things we have and the makers say protect your computor or tv with a spike protector bar to stop a voltage surge. It would seem to me that would protect a vehicle too if you hand a surge protector between the battery and the electronics like a fuse.
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:46   #26
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Electronics are on all the time in most things we have and the makers say protect your computor or tv with a spike protector bar to stop a voltage surge. It would seem to me that would protect a vehicle too if you hand a surge protector between the battery and the electronics like a fuse.
I don't know and suspect that the folks that should know don't know either.

I've kept my old 91 GMC pick up with a 350 that does not have a ton of wires on it and most of the electronics other than the radio, sometimes, does not work now.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won;t.

Good boots in each vehicle, they always works.
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:47   #27
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BJ, The Faraday cage at least the ones I have built are to store electronic components that are not in use at the time.

It's not something that is in use in the car or truck at least in my case.

I suppose it could be a secondary set of components that could be switched over as a backup set of components that were at the time of the emp event isolated in their Faraday cage and hence after the employee event be put into service to be used after the components that were in use were fried by the employee event.
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Old May 18, 2017, 22:59   #28
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I forgot a great deal of info in my electrical classes but the paper in post 9 said as much as 7,000 volts of electromagnetic force can be produced in an emp blast. Anyone know what the amps production of such a blast creates. I believe it was 60 volts and 48 amps that was the lowest ever to kill a human. Point being if you get an emp strike could the 7,000 volts create enough amps to kill you.
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Old May 18, 2017, 23:18   #29
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Plus spice it is an electromagnetic shock wave couldn't you protect your home with a big antenna deeply grounded to catch the pulse? Or does the pulse use the entire electrical grid in which case would you be better off with no grid and antenna protection? Seems the goal by the paper is to stay away from electrical.
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Old May 18, 2017, 23:59   #30
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Yes that is my thought on the matter since the EMP tends to use any grid you are connected to as a pathway in and the same of any antenna it would be best to not be connected to any electrical grid and any antenna system used would be a very good idea to have a way to isolate the antenna if possible when not in direct use.

That would make it hard to monitor the radio however if the antenna isn't connected to the two way radio.

But this is where a sacrificial receiver would be wise to have in use and have the radio with the transmitter to be put in its own Faraday box.


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Plus spice it is an electromagnetic shock wave couldn't you protect your home with a big antenna deeply grounded to catch the pulse? Or does the pulse use the entire electrical grid in which case would you be better off with no grid and antenna protection? Seems the goal by the paper is to stay away from electrical.
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Old May 19, 2017, 05:48   #31
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Have two diesel trucks with mechanical fuel pumps and don't use glow plugs. Compression starts the combustion. Have spare critical electronics packed at home, work and in vehicles. Ever count the fuses, both in panel and under hood? How about fuseable links, lot of items look like wires are a fuse too. Then there are your relays and solenoids. It's a pile to store. Have two small magneto fired kick start single cylinder motorcycles. As mentioned one of the trucks is a 6×6 power line maintenance truck designed to drive power line cuts. As to protecting things in home about to make a quick post in other thread. Unfortunately for OP a 454 fuel hog is last thing I want post EMP as want a fuel sipper not guzzler. Even my 4×4 3/4 ton truck gets 22 mpg. But if don't have at least 100 different spare fuses and relays packed away, most will be stuck.
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Old May 19, 2017, 07:23   #32
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Old May 19, 2017, 09:30   #33
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Had three steam engines which were first items sold when back went out. The traction engine took a special permit to move on highway due to width and weight. If let run low on water or governor fails you have a bomb. So many people were getting killed at fairs many states require a license to operate in public. Went to a one week class to get that license then a second class to get trained and certified for governor repair. Only part of a steam engine that would be hard for me to build from scrap metal is the governor and why have three of the more popular sizes still. Could cobble an engine together to run a generator off wood just need to keep it running a constant rate. Suggest anyone that wants.to survive post apocalypse get a lot of varied expensive hobbies. Also take the $99 introductory VFR flying class or enough to learn landing a single engine. If more than a few hours drive or weeks walk from home will TAKE a small plane from closest small airfield with all the payload will carry moved out of truck. Can put a Cessna 172/182 or Piper Dakota in church lawn within site of house. Will likely destroy the landing gear but will be home. If it's an EMP will pray for a Super Cub or a standard Cub at least, off runway gear would be a bonus. Know where several are in North GA and scattered about Western NC and all SC. They have a club and are not bashful of posing pics of home runways with metadata intact.
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Old May 19, 2017, 10:22   #34
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Years ago I knew a US Army LTC (that had good reason to be aware of EMP problems) that mentioned some "informal" EMP testing had been done to US manufactured cars & trucks.
His advice at the time was to buy a Ford diesel pick-up.
He also mentioned that the only US Helicopter to have been EMP tested was the UH-1 Huey (early models, before all the electronics were added to the flight controls).
So I did a little digging and I think this article covers the testing done to auto's and trucks, plus gives a bit more insight into the question of EMP and your ride..

EMP Effects on Vehicles

by Jerry Emanuelson, B.S.E.E.

Futurescience, LLC

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html

Richard
Sharing the above link again as it will help you understand what you are dealing with.
Now, here is the component that gets added to automotive circuits to protect against EMP.
It is called an MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor).
Here is a link that does explain the basics of how they need to be used:
http://sciencing.com/size-mov-surge-...n-8708803.html

They don't look like much, and a protected system will have enough sets to deal with more than one EMP event.
Where it gets tricky is knowing WHERE to place them in your vehicle electrical system.
They are used in diesel vehicles too.
The DoD does have systems that need to run post EMP.
You may be able to find some published sources that explain the use of MOV's in vehicle and generator electrical systems.

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Old May 19, 2017, 13:31   #35
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Touched on MOV's (metal oxide varistor, basically a diode that allows voltage to travel each direction instead of only one inside of a specific range, can see some fluctuation in rating based on temperature) versus gas discharge tube surge suppressors in other EMP thread. MOV's can take dozens, hundreds even a thousand small spikes and surges but eventually stop their last impulse and die forever. Overall they are much tougher than a gas discharge tube but beter have spare MOV's and most are a de-solder and re-solder part buried in an enclosure attached to a circuit board. Have replaced the MOV's in expensive UPS's and other devices but when installing a dedicated surge suppressor if its possible I prefer to use a gas discharge tube type that either has a thumb screw you can undo with bare hands to replace the tube or open enclosure and will be sitting between two spring clips like a battery so pop the old one out and new one in.

Usually see MOV's in automotive applications but my big H.F. antenna has a gas discharge tube between it and the cab of truck as 12.5 foot tall antenna will grab an impulse rubber tires or not and the LMR 400 wire will bring it on in with you. As to a Ford diesel for post EMP don't most have glow plugs and electric fuel pumps? That's two huge pieces of the puzzle the EMP will eat. Of course with EPA and their rules including ultra low sulpur fuel and some form of waste gas scrubbing system urea (piss) in a Ford and why I think they smell so odd and proven catalytic converter in Dodge either way a late model has so many sensors attached to a computer ALL late model diesels are going to die with a real EMP.

1998 though 2001 Dodge 2500 with 5.9L 24 valve engine is most reliable late model but still has a lot more electronics than want post EMP. Will NEVER sell my 2001 4x4 2500 Dodge. interior is still showroom fresh and exterior is decent. Ford owns Cummins but does not offer them in lighter duty pickups, F550 and above if am up to date on my Ford knowledge which is usually wrong. If wanted a specific survival truck would go find a good 1992 or 1993 Dodge Cummins 4x4 with a 5.9L 12v all mechanical Cummins, put a shell on it, armor package, big fuel cell in bed along with dual tanks underneath.
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Old May 19, 2017, 15:02   #36
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It's just me, I just don't understand a radio spike that can produce more than three volts it takes to operate electronics. I can see a spike comming from the battery where the power is and even while your vehicle is charging while moving but it doesn't make sense that something with no power is fried.

In the past they said electronics that had tube in their system were not fried by emp which to me means the spike is in the circuit boards.

Yet this Faraday cage doesn't make sense either because your vehicle is metal and surrounds your electronics.

What does make sense is the old cars don't have power on all the time like today's rigs, today's rigs never shut down unless it has no battery. Think how powerful a radio signal would have to be to fry the boards in electronics. Now I can see a pulse that is magnified by the power in the vehicle but a vehicle or electronic with no power would seem extremely difficult to pulse.

I guess I am just too dumb to get it...
It is not wholly complicated. The computer chips take the place of wiring, lots of circuits are put on the chips in a very small space. What that means is the circuits or conductors within those circuits are very tiny. Therefore they cannot handle a load over & above what they were designed for.
An anology would be your average stranded wire, multiple strands wound together make a given size wire with a given load capacity.
Now take the same piece of wire, remove all the strands except for one single strand, and make that single strand hold the same load, not going to happen.
The single strand of wire represents the circuits on a computer chip vrs the old style of electrical where regular wire had to be used as computer chips were not available to eliminate a lot of the wiring.
The older wiring, while rated at a given load, can for a short duration take a shot of much higher voltage and survive it. A 10 gauge wire which normally operates at 12V would be able to take a shot at 75 volts if its a momentary thing. The conductors on the chips cannot do that given how tiny they are & what happens with the computer chips and the conductors is the conductors immediately burn through, wiping out the circuit.
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Old May 22, 2017, 10:19   #37
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This thread got me thinking about Cummins 4BT project again. Doing a Google searches found literally over a dozen Dodge 1500 4×4 trucks with a 4BT shoehorned under the hood. Have a 1997 1500 4×4 with heavy duty towing package and 360 gas burner. Purchased it configured like is because it's basically same tow rating as a 2500 but cheaper insurance, better fuel milage and cheaper parts than 3/4 ton. Have both plus the Dak and the Top Kick with Caterpillar. While it still runs fine, seldom drive as has 338,000+ miles and fuel mileage is crap now. Haven't traded because trucks have become cool thus expensive for decent truck and two weeks of work to remove stereo, ham radios, antennas plus a month to install all those in new truck and A/C still blows cold. Why keep driving the little 4×4 Dakota most days.

As researching all the 1500 4BT and 4BTA swaps looked to see what may be available locally in a motor. Guy has a fresh rebuilt 130 HP/360 Ft Lbs torque 4BTA with mechanical fuel pump and 90 day warranty for $3,500 and not seen anything but pictures yet nor tried haggling or trading. If guy is a Mopar freak the three Hemis have left, three NOS 727 automatic transmissions with long tail shafts for trucks and other sundry truck, antique tractor and Harley parts might do some trading. Already done a rough budget for project. $3k for engine, 2k for new transmission and transfer case, $1k in gears/axle work has $6k into an almost all new driveline in a truck I like.

Paying for labor is the killer as can't wrestle truck motors, transmissioms, etc myself anymore though have all the tools and place. Gotta talk to some friends and see how bad can twist their arms to help a brother out. Money saved from the 6k would be new radios as would find excuse to not move the Kenwood H.F. rig to a new truck nor several others. Once stereo is out when install in new head unit would have to be swapped with other parts as just the way I am. Subwoofers are relatively new the all of the amps are the old handmade Rockford Fosgate that will put up,against anything along with a new set of infinity tweets and JL Audio 4"×6" plates. Yes, I need big booming stereo in truck. New truck would need new dual or triple battery system with battery isolators and charge controllers so converting the '97 gas burner to 4BTA with manual fuel pump is sounding good when know can easily get 170 h.p. and over 400 ft lbs of torque plus reading where people are getting 24 to 28 mpg out of a full size 4×4.

Subtract 2k from deal on new electronic gear and six weeks of flipping stereo/ham gear it's sounding better as was considering a combo 360 crate motor/transmission swap anyway. Just pray that someone talks me out of it as sure will become a money pit before complete but would be great truck thus configured. Just getting from A to B in elegant manner including mounting the A/C may be easy or the mother of all stupid ideas.
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Old May 26, 2017, 10:26   #38
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I just ordered a replacement ignition control unit for my 1984 Ford F-250 and as far as I know this unit is the only thing an EMP would whack, maybe.
If I put it in a .50 cal ammo box inside a metal building on a wood shelf would that work? The thing is a sealed unit and about 5x5 and 1.5 inches thick. Would I need to ground the box?
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Old May 26, 2017, 10:46   #39
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With a tweak or two yeas , imo.

I would suggest the rubber gasket be pulled and a copper braid gasket be applied in its place after the paint was removed with a wite brush or maybe sand blasted as to make good electrical bond between the body and lid of the ammo can and I'm also of the opinion that grounding is a good idea.

Line the can with a good thick dry cardboard layer before putting anything into it.

And a hard drive type milar bag is also a good insulator.

If you like I'll show you my Faraday box when I head back up to Kalispell in a few months.

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I just ordered a replacement ignition control unit for my 1984 Ford F-250 and as far as I know this unit is the only thing an EMP would whack, maybe.
If I put it in a .50 cal ammo box inside a metal building on a wood shelf would that work? The thing is a sealed unit and about 5x5 and 1.5 inches thick. Would I need to ground the box?
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Old May 26, 2017, 11:31   #40
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Yeah I would very much like to see the real deal. I know squat about this stuff.
One big problem is fuel for a 10 mpg 460 gas hog. After an EMP attack pumping fuel would be a bit of an issue I would think.
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Old May 26, 2017, 16:09   #41
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All of my trucks engines have mechanical fuel pumps and magnetos or HEI ignition.

The starters are without any electronic components so nothing should affect the starters when / if there is an emp event.

Batteries in the trucks are a concern and or question as they are a spiral grid and could act as a antenna to the emp energy and hence be damaged so they will be stored in a box as well.

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Yeah I would very much like to see the real deal. I know squat about this stuff.
One big problem is fuel for a 10 mpg 460 gas hog. After an EMP attack pumping fuel would be a bit of an issue I would think.
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Old May 26, 2017, 17:23   #42
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Yeah I would very much like to see the real deal. I know squat about this stuff.
One big problem is fuel for a 10 mpg 460 gas hog. After an EMP attack pumping fuel would be a bit of an issue I would think.
1. what type of exhaust do you have on it?

2. How handy are you with a dremel or electric grinder?

3. Do you have enough mechanical knowledge to pull the heads off that 460?
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Old May 26, 2017, 17:32   #43
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How would you protect an automotive battery from EMP - particularly in ready use storage?
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Old May 26, 2017, 18:12   #44
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If carrying spare electrical components in a vehicle for the hopes of getting it running in event of EMP your metal box must have metal seal if the impulse is strong in your area. Most vehicle bodies are floating off ground due to rubber tires but something learned in ham radio and using antennas that need a strong ground plane to operate at maximum efficiency just like a house, bringing all major metal/steel components to the same potential will simulate of approximate an earth ground.

Your vehicle body is isolated from frame by rubber bushings to keep vibrations from making the ride uncomfortable. The motor mounts often have a huge amount of rubber or polymer to isolate its vibrations from frame and passenger compartment. Owning a megger and a Fluke Earth Ground tester have played with this using junk vehicle because a Megger introduces a 10,000 volt low amperage charge to see if ground rods are properly bonded to earth. They are not designed to be used on a vehicle but a little work with how its attached you can see if measurements change as each step is done and they do. Also range increases based on distance of contacts can make with your radio and signal reports. I repeat, never use a megger or ground rod tester on working vehicle unless your planning to scrap it.

First find an area of the body near the frame that will not matter if drill a hole. Bed of a truck, behind the seat of the cab. Remember on a truck the bed and the cab are separate so have to ground both. Drill a hole, chuck a small round wire brush in a cordless drill and remove about a half inch of paint and undercoating from around hole. Do same with frame then using bolt with a fender washer (bigger washer than normal for size of hole, I use 3/8" shank bolt with a 1" to 1 1/4" diameter fender washer) coat all surfaces with some dielectric grease and use a ground braid with crimped loop on each end. the shorter and wider the braid is the better. After I make my bonds wipe them down well to remove excess dialetric grease then spray some rattle can bed liner on frame locations or at least some touch up paint anywhere drilled a new hole. You may be tempted to use stainless fasteners but then you get into dissimilar metals and when nix metals that conduct electricity, even if just bonding for grounds different metals can do some odd erosion and reactions.

I have seen people pull ground from rails to body then body to hood, body to trunk, body to doors, etc. Many of the panels were primed or components painted before assembly and some may have bushings or spacers that diminish or totally isolates all panels. Even seen bonds going to every fender according to vehicle construction as a lot of panels are glued together now and while the glue is strong and holds then together, it is keeps the two panels from having an electrical bond. But the must do is body to frame, engine to frame, transmission to frame and exhaust to frame. I have my beds bonded and hood bonded as well as the other "must haves" previous. Verified contacts repeatedly into Europe, Australia, New Zealand. and Asia using a 20 meter Ham Stick (glorified C.B. antenna) with 100 watts mobile seems to bear out that it helps.

If put your spare brain in an ammo can its no good without one of every fuse in fuse panel and under hood plus relays. Pulled the rubber gasket out of mine, replaced with tin foil, coated with dialectic grease and sits in bottom of toolbox which is grounded to frame. The bottom of the ammo can rubbing on the inside of the toolbox has them as well bonded electrically as any wire could. Google "ham radio mobile antenna install chassis ground" or similar and press he image tab for pictures and then follow the interesting ones. Recently found a company making flexible and well fitting Faraday suits for people. They say they more than double your ability to approach marine life and wild animals. Will be posting to the Not a Topic thread on this odd idea as about to Faraday cage another room at home and been researching not only wavelength but amplitude and other components of an EMP quite a bit lately.
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Old May 26, 2017, 18:12   #45
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Same as any other component, just store it in a properly prepared Faraday box charge it every so often.

I keep a battery charger in the box ready to charge it once every two weeks or so.


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How would you protect an automotive battery from EMP - particularly in ready use storage?
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Old May 26, 2017, 18:48   #46
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Pay the $500 for a lithium automotive battery in your box. Will store a decade without charging though I would put it on a float charger once a year.
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Old May 26, 2017, 20:16   #47
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Touched on MOV's.............
The problem with MOVs and Nuclear EMP is the very fast rise time of the voltage transient. It is so fast that the MOV can not begin to react before the voltage transient has already passed and done it's damage.
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Old May 27, 2017, 05:18   #48
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Why I prefer gas discharge tubes. They tend to snap as quick as anything and user serviceable. The units I use are exact same as found on Patriot Missiles and other important military systems.
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Old May 28, 2017, 09:44   #49
FALuvr
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Magneto vs EMP?

Glad I ran across this thread. Often wonder what effect an EMP would have on a magneto ignition? Second choice would be points/coil ignition. Not hard to store away extra points, condensers, coils, etc. Any imput here?
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Old May 28, 2017, 12:37   #50
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Have two magneto fired motorcycles for post EMP/SHTF scenario. Think they will survive, bikes are grounded while stored, and no battery required to run. Kick or roll start. Magnetos rock.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...e-an-emp-pulse

https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/emp.htm

Have read lots of material by people a lot smarter than me and most seem to think magnetos will survive as an EMP would have to demagnitize them. The EMP that neutralizes magnets happens and we have bigger issues than transportation.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
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