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Old August 12, 2018, 20:26   #101
Bawana jim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit308 View Post
Brother Wayne, do they drink from blue Solo cups or do you just spray them in the face with the garden hose?

Don't they have water troughs with auto fill valves where you are at?

Or, because they are sheep, and are not known for their brains, will they jump in the trough and drown?

That last one is probably too true to be funny.
You sure know alot about sheep.
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:29   #102
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BaaaaaaaaaaaWaaaaaaaaaaaNaaaaaaaaa.

You should notice the question marks, Jim.
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:32   #103
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I thought about growing a substantial crop of tomatoes for resale before I found out there were over 240 diseases and other reasons that make a tomato crop sick
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:43   #104
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Perhaps you have never heard of 'Ferreting'.

For your consideration.
If they come after me with a pack of fido's, my secondary plan is to die with gusto!!!!!
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:49   #105
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BaaaaaaaaaaaWaaaaaaaaaaaNaaaaaaaaa.

You should notice the question marks, Jim.
I thought you were asking BW the questions and you had all the answers.
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:49   #106
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Well ladies and gentlemen, the farmers are still winning and reinforcements have appeared, now all settled nicely into camp!



And for the record, I've learned more from the farmers on this thread than I ever have in the past about chemical use on food stuffs and such.
Thanks
No green thumb on this old boy.
I buy my veggies from a farmer!
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:57   #107
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If they come after me with a pack of fido's, my secondary plan is to die with gusto!!!!!
The Little terriers are just in that photo as part of the hunt. If you watch the old vid they get to the part where they send Ferrets down the rabbit holes to chase the rabbits into a net, for later consumption.

There must be a tactical lesson there, somewhere.
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Old August 12, 2018, 20:58   #108
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I thought you were asking BW the questions and you had all the answers.
I do have an answer for most questions, Jim, sometimes I am even correct.
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Old August 12, 2018, 21:05   #109
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Something that I found to be completely absent in this thread was the fact that farming is a business, with balance sheets, profit and loss statements, and cash flow statements.

Farming is NOT gardening.
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Old August 12, 2018, 21:10   #110
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Something that I found to be completely absent in this thread was the fact that farming is a business, with balance sheets, profit and loss statements, and cash flow statements.

Farming is NOT gardening.
Very true.
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Old August 12, 2018, 21:19   #111
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I do have an answer for most questions, Jim, sometimes I am even correct.
People ask me questions it's just for my opinionl, they allready have their own answers.
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Old August 12, 2018, 21:32   #112
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Oregon State University has a good program that helps people grow things, if I wanted info I would look there. If I just wanted to troll Oakie I would be like j. Oakie has pride in his work and you can see he would help his fellow man if he could but j puts oakie in a position he has to defend big chemical. It's a troll and I hate to see Oakie go through it. If j really wanted knowledge the net is full of it.

Oh well, it's just my opinion and ymmv.
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Old August 12, 2018, 21:57   #113
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The Little terriers are just in that photo as part of the hunt. If you watch the old vid they get to the part where they send Ferrets down the rabbit holes to chase the rabbits into a net, for later consumption.

There must be a tactical lesson there, somewhere.
I watched the entire video, I really used to hate ferrets. Maybe not now. Those are some good sized rabbits they caught. We don't have burrowing rabbits here, just little cottontails and an occasional Jack rabbit.
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Old August 12, 2018, 22:14   #114
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Answers on sheep production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit308 View Post
Brother Wayne, do they drink from blue Solo cups or do you just spray them in the face with the garden hose?

Don't they have water troughs with auto fill valves where you are at?

Or, because they are sheep, and are not known for their brains, will they jump in the trough and drown?

That last one is probably too true to be funny.
No Blue solo cups. A yellow 1950 GMC ton and half truck. But the yearlings are on a float ( progressive huh)

Answer to question referring to Ovine intellect. There are no sheep belonging to Mensa.

I have heard more sheep jokes than most but my Brother with his nose wet with Scotch can tell you one that is just plain funny. Ask at the fall shoot.

No jumping into troughs and drowning but we had a new replacement ewe lamb out of bunch that we just brought home from California try to jump a panel while we were de-worming early this morning and break it's leg. $200 that we haven't even got lambs from. That was a disappointment.
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Old August 12, 2018, 22:21   #115
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No Blue solo cups. A yellow 1950 GMC ton and half truck. But the yearlings are on a float ( progressive huh)

Answer to question referring to Ovine intellect. There are no sheep belonging to Mensa.

I have heard more sheep jokes than most but my Brother with his nose wet with Scotch can tell you one that is just plain funny. Ask at the fall shoot.

No jumping into troughs and drowning but we had a new replacement ewe lamb out of bunch that we just brought home from California try to jump a panel while we were de-worming early this morning and break it's leg. $200 that we haven't even got lambs from. That was a disappointment.
I do remember the first time we met years back and Dave said you were a sheepherder. I grinned and you wagged your finger in my face and said "Don't even think about it,I have heard every sheep joke there is".
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Old August 12, 2018, 22:49   #116
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That makes sense. "they grow good and fast, then this happens" If it was a herbicide, likely the plants would be dead from the get go.
The tomatoes are starter plants grown commercially in pots with potting soil.
I am guessing it takes 3-4 weeks for the roots to grow out and absorb the needed amount of herbicide out of the soil before the leaf curl shows up.

Additionally 2 of my closest neighbors grow tomatoes too and none of theirs have the issue. One of those neighbors was the one who suggested herbicides and he was the one that had the Ag professor contact.

Kind of hard to believe I and only I get a tomato virus 5 years running and the neighbors don't.



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Old August 13, 2018, 09:11   #117
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Well ladies and gentlemen, the farmers are still winning and reinforcements have appeared, now all settled nicely into camp!
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the straw.
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the grass (crop fodder).
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the manure.
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the soil for years from that straw/fodder/manure.
^All of which I have been telling him for 3 pages with links from universities and DOW.
But suddenly when told by Brother Wayne he finally gets it.

You don't even know what winning looks like, no wonder you can't win a war.






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Old August 13, 2018, 10:01   #118
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Try starting your tomatoes as seeds in your soil and transplanting it may be Ph shock
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Old August 13, 2018, 22:25   #119
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OK, this thread has taken off and I've bene away for a few days so i'll just address these replies and try to catch up on the rest of the thread.

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RJ, have you ever visited a large organic farm operation? I have... Three of them, growing everything from sweet corn to potatoes. The sweet corn is stunted producing only 2 ears per stalk vs 4-5 in non organic fields, half that is eaten up by various bugs. Same thing with potatoes. Dry beans and peas seem to do a little better, but not much. I guess organic crops are great for feeding the bugs mostly.

It's really strange how a few properly applied chemicals can double or triple yields of foodstuffs.
I agree that chemical based fertilizers, especially combined with GMO crops can generate higher yields. The trade off is, what are the health consequences of said fertilizers, and especially pesticides. I know this is Cali, but Europe won't touch this stuff either IIRC.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...cancer-lawsuit

And, even more importantly, what ALTERNATIVES exist to Glyphosate and RU that don't have the detrimental health impact? We may never know..

Hemp is an enormously successful crop with a ton of applications, form paper and rope to hemp based "plastics." You know why hemp is illegal? (It has a negligible THC content, you can't get high from it.) It's illegal because the paper pulp producers and folks like DuPont (rayon) lobbied hard to make it so to crush competition to their inferior and more environmentally harmful products. It is always the way of crony capitalists, use the force of government to advance your monopoly. This was the main problem of the "Guilded Age"...there was no free market capitalism, it was monopoly through government coercion.

I'm not against corporations, I'm against them corrupting the government instead of letting market forces work. Bayer/Monsanto will put out whatever they can that is the most effective for the least cost, but that doesn't mean it is without unacceptable health repercussions. In a free market, this stuff wouldn't be na issue and it would sort itself out.

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Originally Posted by okiefarmer View Post
RJ,

OK, we strayed, I'll admit that, but the j-man deserves every dick slap and face palm he gets. He can dish them out, but he "apparently" (this term only seems to have meaning if he uses it) can't take it. This is the guy that plays Mr. Wizard on anything political, and advises everyone else they don't know shit. But, I digress.

If you go back and re-read this thread, you were the first to mention anything about RU or Monsanto.

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These are valid points, perhaps we need to eat lower on the food chain to successfully support global population.

From your post, am I to gather you are pro Monsanto and big-agra business? Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined? An advocate of the conditions animals are kept in in CAFO's?

Previous to this, it was only an argument on the ridiculous rules and regs placed on Ag, putting unneeded costs on the smaller producers.
Fair point, but I think they are connected. The very same corporations that bring you RU and CAFo's are the very same ones that create the barriers to the market for small farmers. I'm sorry I didn't explicitly state that connection.

And you know what, I love to eat meat. I love to hunt, and I've butchered my share of Deer and assorted small game, but I think the conditions animals are kept in in CAFO's is immoral and I try to avoid it as much as possible.

As for Juanni, he can fight his own battles, but I just don't see how he causes such a stir here. Maybe it's because I agree with him on a lot of things.


Quote:
...And, no, I don't put much credibility in snopes. There may be controversy about RU, hell gun owners are controversial to the liberals of this country. But it does seem that them that know so little pretend to know so much. Years ago, the pink packets of sugar substitute (saccharin) was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to cause cancer. Oops. they made a mistake. Now that Monsanto came along with Aspartame, they go after them. If we believed everything we hear on da innerwebs, we wouldn't be eating anything, and the only safe thing to drink is Maker's Mark. I'd always heard that for every beer ya drink, a brain cell dies. I shouldn't have any left after my high school and college life, so I guess the two I have left is allowing me to make semi lucid comments in a public forum.
Between the notion of, "meh, it wont' hurt ya", and "OMG, it will kill you" lies a prudent middle ground. The notion that EVERYTHING is a carcinogen is foolhardy (ala California), and a proper cost/benefit, risk analysis should be conducted. Some folks are just more prone to cancerous mutations than others.


Quote:
.. I'll make a bold statement here; I know damn little about Ag chemicals - - - - - - - anymore. There is so much new chemistry being brought into use each year, it almost takes a PhD to keep up. RU has been and remains one of THE MOST popular non-selective herbicides ever developed. Had it been developed by a mom and pop chemical lab, little would be talked about dangers, because deep pockets cause controversy.

RU has become almost worthless on about any broadleaf plant. It was never developed for them. I was developed as a grass herbicide, but discovered in the lab to kill everything - - - - -at least then it did. Many broadleaves have developed resistance to RU, and at the rates we can afford to pay, even at $10/gal, it is basically worthless. And again I'll ask, what is the difference in weeds doing their own genetic modification vs. man doing it a little faster? Syngenta was the first to come out with soybeans that one can spray dicamba over the top to kill these RU resistant broadleaves. Killing broadleaf weeds in a broadleaf crop(soybeans) has heretofor been impossible. This new chemistry has created many bitter enemies of neighboring farmers. Those that chose not to "feed BIGCHEM" and planted RU only beans got millions of acres drifted on by neighbors miles away spraying dicamba. To add fuel to the fire, if you plant dicamba resistant soys, and spray over the top with dicamba, you must follow the label and use the special formulation the chem companies make for low volatility/low drift, costing the farmer about 3 times as much per acre as standard formulation dicamba. Trust me, it it still drifts. The reason the force this use is the liability costs if drift damages any susceptible crops. Spray off label, go to jail, or pay a huge fine. Or just pay triple the cost so the chem company can build up a war chest in case it is needed.
This sounds more like coercive monopolistic business practices than sound farming to me.



Quote:
..And it still happens, they have developed 2-4D resistant cotton, dicamba and 2-4D resistant soybeans, Liberty resistant corn and soybeans, etc. Problems is, 2-4d drift will kill dicamba resistant anything, the same is true reversing the two, RU kills Liberty resistant corn/beans, and Liberty will kill RU corn/beans. It's really fun out there.

Our food supply is not in jeopardy by the producer. I honestly feel the bigger concern over food safety is the processors who handle, process, and package the food after it leaves the farm. It's a general concensus that about 2% of this country's population are in the job of agricultural production, that's about 6 million people. The list narrows exponentially in those involved in the processing and packaging of same. A mistake by just one can make tens of thousands of people ill, and I think you have been witness to this fact in the past, and it will continue to happen.
As an interesting side not here, it was Upton Sinclair's book "The Jungle" about the "horrific" conditions in america's food packing and processing plants that ushered in an era of heavy FDA regulation and oversight. The back story though, Upton was an AVOWED socialist and the changes the government enacted via legislation only put the small packers out of business and centralized the oligopoly of the bigger plants. See a pattern here?

Quote:
...Coincidentally, I'll guess 95% or more of the RU sprayed is not sprayed on the food that humans consume. There is not that much wheat dessicated with RU, it dries down quite well on it's own. Are there a few cases where it is done, hell yes. Some farmers will do whatever it takes to save the crop. But it is not done on a widespread scale, despite what snopes says.
OK. you didn't read the article I linked..Snopes doesn't claim it's done on a wide scale. I was told by another poster I was "perpetuating a lie" when I made that claim, I simply offered the Snopes reference as evidence I wasn't lying and you admit the same, it IS done by some, albeit few.



Quote:
...Almost all field corn is fed to livestock, over 70% actually goes to the chicken industry, most of the rest to swine and beef. The soybean stream is predominantly used as a protein source for the lower protein corn/sorghum grains based feed rations for livestock. As far as I know THERE IS NO RU Jolly Green Giant anything. That market doesn't justify the research, they still use the old chemistries of the Atrazines, sulfonylurea, and other "harmless" chemicals. Harmless because the MSM and the Sierra club have given up fighting it, because the new bogey-company Monsanto gained notoriety. By the way, it's no longer Monsanto, it's now Bayer. Yeah, the old aspirin people, the good guys because the have something good for humans. They now own and control a huge block of seed genomes in agriculture (yeah, they own the technology in the seed, thus the seed itself. Ya can't even legally save back seed for planting for yourself). And Bayer is second only to Syngenta.
Good points. The fact you can not use seed as heirlooms and must buy, new GM seed form the company sends shivers down my spine. First, it is reminiscent of the old "company store" where miners were indebted to and compelled to buy their tools from the mine owner's store. Second, WTF? you're essentially saying you can't eat without their permission.


Quote:
...Yes, I agree a big culprit in our health in this country is processed food. But whether that same food is grown with manmade fertilizer or something we are told is organic is immaterial. A plant's roots cannot tell the difference. "Nitrogen" is "Nitrogen" to them, regardless of the source. And I don't want to make this post any longer than I need to, but manmade "N" is not the dangerous thing most people are led to believe. It is manufactured using the Haber-Bosch process, yeah, some more Germans invented it, actually invented to make bombs in WWII. Nonetheless, natural gas is only used as a heat source, it is the N1(that should be a little 1) from the same air you breathe every day. The air you breathe is made up of about 78% N1, plants can only metabolize N2. Through the above process, the Nitrogen you breathe is converted to N2, usable by a plant. This "N" and "N" from cow pee, and whatever other source organic people use is all the same underground to a plant.

Yes, I am aware of the Ogallala aquifer and it's issues. I was an irrigation engineer in western Kansas in the late 70's. Most were pumping from static water depths of about 60-80' then. I don't know for sure, I've been out of it for eons, but I know static depth is likely much lower now. This just adds costs pulling it out of the ground, but they will continue to do so until diminishing returns mandates it discontinuance. When that happens, much of western Kansas and big parts of Nebraska will become a desert if n ot returned to native grasses.

I'm tired, this old man is going to bed. I hope this helps, and I tried to be civil.
Thank you, it was an excellent exchange of information IMO. Your final comments on the aquifer and the consequences to the plains are a serious concern for me. I'm sure you see it as such too, but perhaps not. They say future wars will be fought over potable water, not oil. Look at which companies and nations are chasing water "rights"...
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Old August 13, 2018, 22:56   #120
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One doesn't put Round Up or any other glyphosate on "Green Wheat" to dry it out. That will kill the "Green Wheat" and there will not be any kernal formation.
To make a pre-harvest application on wheat it must be in the stiff dough stage or past. That means it is no longer green.
Thanks for chiming in and sharing your expertise. I stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the straw.
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the grass (crop fodder).
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the manure.
Okie the farmer was wrong about how herbicides CAN be in the soil for years from that straw/fodder/manure.
^All of which I have been telling him for 3 pages with links from universities and DOW.
But suddenly when told by Brother Wayne he finally gets it.

You don't even know what winning looks like, no wonder you can't win a war.
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And this is how you win friends and influence people.
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Old August 14, 2018, 17:18   #121
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As for Juanni, he can fight his own battles, but I just don't see how he causes such a stir here. Maybe it's because I agree with him on a lot of things.
It is my anti war, anti MIC, anti meddling, anti big govt views.
The usual suspects attack on any and every topic because they are all butt hurt over these views.

YH, BJ and Bubbs are seriously afflicted with jDS, juanni Derangement Syndrome and get triggered whenever I post.


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Originally Posted by rowjimmy View Post
And this is how you win friends and influence people.
Just trying to help YH with his scorekeeping. He seemed to get the homerun and the strikeouts columns all mixed up.



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Old August 14, 2018, 17:25   #122
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Try starting your tomatoes as seeds in your soil and transplanting it may be Ph shock
I have been gardening on and off for 40 years.
I grew great tomatoes for 2 seasons at the present garden, added the 3-4 bales of straw in late Fall and tilled it in in Spring.

That was the beginning of the tomato leaf curl/mutated fruit.
^It was in the straw and the straw didn't change the ph.

I have compounded that by adding local cow and horse manure that I now suspect was also tainted.

I let 2 of the current tomatoes plants grow, they are now about 3-4 ft tall still with leaf curl and odd fruit. If it was ph shock they would have recovered after 3 months of growing.





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Old August 14, 2018, 19:30   #123
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Whatever it is is a damn shame
All that work and effort and waiting all year for that one basket of garden ripe tomatoes with that taste the grocery store can't match
A damn shame
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Old August 14, 2018, 19:54   #124
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Thanks for chiming in and sharing your expertise. I stand corrected.



And this is how you win friends and influence people.
Thanks again RJ for quoting the shifferbrains, I have to see his pablum in print one more time.

Mr J, I never said it didn't persist in soils. Some do persist in soils much longer than others, Grazon for one, and if you care to go back and re-read, and this time try to comprehend at the same time. Some chemicals are designed to stay in the soils, they are called pre-emergent class chems. Normally a 3 month control on the targeted weeds. However, any crops they are not labelled for may be damaged as long as 18 months afterward.

I really feel bad that you are having such issues with your garden. It's just really hard to believe you are having such a trainwreck with what you classify as 5 year carryover, and I am actually spraying these culprit chemicals in my garden on the weeds they are intended to kill.

And WTF did brother wayne explain that I didn't already know. I PMd him off page and he explained what he meant, and it isn't what you think he meant. But, it really doesn't matter, you have your mind made up that you are right, cannot be convinced of anything other than what you want to believe, so it's no use talking about it anymore. You are not unlike any liberal, even faced with facts, still won't change.

Good bye
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Old August 15, 2018, 05:53   #125
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Juanni, have you checked the nitrogen levels in your soil? If you posted it, I may have missed it, with all the other back and forth here. Lack of nitrogen will cause a lot of problems. If you need to bring it up, the organic solution is bloodroot. Sprinkle a bit over the soil. let nature do the rest.
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Old August 15, 2018, 08:19   #126
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Juanni, have you checked the nitrogen levels in your soil? If you posted it, I may have missed it, with all the other back and forth here. Lack of nitrogen will cause a lot of problems. If you need to bring it up, the organic solution is bloodroot. Sprinkle a bit over the soil. let nature do the rest.
That's why I suggested he have his soil tested. Too much or too little nitrogen can both be a problem. It's hard to fix it if you don't have the facts first.
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Old August 15, 2018, 15:19   #127
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That's why I suggested he have his soil tested. Too much or too little nitrogen can both be a problem. It's hard to fix it if you don't have the facts first.
There is no signs on nitrogen deficiency (yellowish leaves etc) in the tomatoes or anything else in the garden.

Nor signs of too much nitrogen, like excess vine and leaf growth.

Nutrient deficiencies aren't that common in organic gardens that had loads of manure added over the years.




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Old Yesterday, 06:07   #128
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The problem is that if you use compost that is not all the way broken down, it uses nitrogen as it finishes it's break down. I have run into this problem. The bloodroot fixed it. My leaves were not showing any signs of nitrogen deficiency either, but it was there. It's a simple thing to test the soil, just to be sure.
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Old Yesterday, 19:13   #129
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Not that anyone really gives a rat's a$$ about this, but wife unit and I just went to check things at farm last few days. Two or three weeks ago, I planted pearl millet around the shed, mostly to keep weeds down, and maybe attract the deer for a friend that put up a stand in the tree row last spring. Friend called a couple days before we left to go there, and asked what I planted, it looked great, perfect stand, pretty color of green. I get out there, and I have yellow dying patches everywhere. My first thought was to sue some evil chemical company for my millet dying. Ooops, I would be wrong.

Does anyone want to guess what the culprit was?
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Old Yesterday, 19:16   #130
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Originally Posted by okiefarmer View Post
Not that anyone really gives a rat's a$$ about this, but wife unit and I just went to check things at farm last few days. Two or three weeks ago, I planted pearl millet around the shed, mostly to keep weeds down, and maybe attract the deer for a friend that put up a stand in the tree row last spring. Friend called a couple days before we left to go there, and asked what I planted, it looked great, perfect stand, pretty color of green. I get out there, and I have yellow dying patches everywhere. My first thought was to sue some evil chemical company for my millet dying. Ooops, I would be wrong.

Does anyone want to guess what the culprit was?
Heat and lack of water?
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Old Yesterday, 19:46   #131
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Heat and lack of water?
We are greener than we have been in our area than is normal, west of I-35. Water is plentfiful this year, third summer in a row, go figger. Winter moisture sucked, as did the winter wheat.

It was chinch bugs. Damn hard to see. They are hitting any of the sorghums (and in my case, millet) hard this year. We have had terrible issues with the sugar cane aphid in the past, but they didn't cause much damage this year. A few years back, entire fields of grain sorghum just laid down, they cannabilized the plant so bad, and their "spit" they left behind completely gummed up combines to the point they had to be power washed internally from front to back, and only a few of us realize what that involves.
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Old Yesterday, 20:57   #132
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Originally Posted by okiefarmer View Post
We are greener than we have been in our area than is normal, west of I-35. Water is plentfiful this year, third summer in a row, go figger. Winter moisture sucked, as did the winter wheat.

It was chinch bugs. Damn hard to see. They are hitting any of the sorghums (and in my case, millet) hard this year. We have had terrible issues with the sugar cane aphid in the past, but they didn't cause much damage this year. A few years back, entire fields of grain sorghum just laid down, they cannabilized the plant so bad, and their "spit" they left behind completely gummed up combines to the point they had to be power washed internally from front to back, and only a few of us realize what that involves.
I would have never guessed that one, we have bugs but not on that scale. Aphids in the alfalfa, that's about it. Power washing combines I do know about, one of the organic farmers I used to work with grew a few beans with his nightshade crop, the goo from the nightshade berries would break auger shafts and gearboxes when it built up in the tubes. Taught them to run a fire hose through the machine once a day to clean it out.

Funny story about beans and nightshade... In high school I worked for a seed farmer, nightshade was a big no no. I found one of the fields had big patches of the stuff (which meant manuel labor to rogue it out). The neighbor had a field of potatoes that got sprayed the next day for potato beetles, the beetles moved out and ate our nightshade down to the stem in 24 hours. One man's pest...
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