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Old September 13, 2017, 12:54   #51
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[QUOTE=badzero;4477823]
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Originally Posted by chet View Post

So an aluminum tube filled with organic material and liquid punched a big hole in multiple layers of structural steel?
Um yeah.

My FAL can punch holes into steel plate... with LEAD. How can that BEEEEEEEE?????? I mean steel is a LOT harder than lead... right?

1983. Hurricane Alecia hits Houston. Grandparents lived in the same house for 50+ years. Had a little tin-roofed barn behind the house. Tornado touches down REAL close, sucks some of the corrugated tin off the little barn. There was a pecan tree about a foot thick about 20 feet away or so. One of the pieces of tin, about 8ft long and 2ft wide, hit the tree perfectly with it's end edge. Cut half way through the tree. There was no pulling it out, we had to cut the tree down. But tell me, can you cut half way through a tree with a piece of corrugated tin? Of course not, but there it was.
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Old September 13, 2017, 12:58   #52
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^

Did you start this thread with the title:

"I see Stupid People ... on 9/11"? and then, in the same thread, tell the story about a steel roof and a pecan tree - as "evidence" of something? Did you also just compare the hollow structure of a jet liner made of aluminum and traveling ~250 mph to a solid projectile traveling 1850 mph made of lead, which is denser than (solid) aluminum by 400%?

You may not want to use the word "stupid" to talk about other people for a while. HTH



Here's a little snippet on Building 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk
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Old September 13, 2017, 13:21   #53
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^

Did you start this thread with the title:

"I see Stupid People ... on 9/11"? and then, in the same thread, tell the story about a steel roof and a pecan tree - as "evidence" of something?



Here's a little snippet on Building 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk
He asked how aluminum could get through steel. I showed 2 examples of something that doesn't make sense, unless you have a grasp of how softer things can go through things that are harder.

How about this one, if "anecdotal first hand" observations don't do it for you.



Fleck of old paint that hit the windshield of the space shuttle. Are we there yet or do I need to continue to 'spain "energy is mass in motion?"

And you know building 7 had a few thousand gallons of diesel fuel in it that also burned, right?
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Old September 13, 2017, 13:38   #54
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What I love most about this thread is all the laymen calling all the other laymen "idiots" and "ignorant" while there are 2000 or so structural engineers calling for an explanation that is DIFFERENT than the official explanation in the Report on 9/11.
Brother, I can go click on that petition right now, self identify as a post graduate level engineer, and make it 2001 signatures.

Quote:
And for the people that are saying that Building 7 was "heavily damaged" on "one corner" by debris from the building "near" it, and then that it fell straight down on its footprint? Can you make an explanation for that? Because I notice that Building 7 isn't mentioned EVEN ONCE in the official report. Not once.
It wasnt just damaged on "one corner". One corner was missing after the towers collapsed and it had significant damage from top to bottom AND it burned freely for a long time.



Here is the full NIST WTC 7 Report



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But the symmetrical fall from asymmetrical damage seems unlikely, doesn't it? And they went 3 for 3.
Assuming the conspiracy is true, that the govt flew planes into a building and planted charges to ensure that they collapsed afterward killing 1000's of people, WHY WOULD THEY EVEN GO TO THE TROUBLE TO MITIGATE DAMAGE LIKE THAT? Wouldnt they want even more damage across a greater portion of Manhattan? Wouldnt a horizontal collapse serve their purposes better? Wouldnt it hide their plot better if that was indeed the "likely" mechanism?


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I don't know who or what or how. I'm just not convinced that .Gov is telling the whole story. Because, you know, they've been really good about it in the past...
Since when has our govt been able to keep 1000's of co-conspirators quiet about anything? Heck, they couldnt even get Hillary elected.


Quote:
Here's a pro-tip for all of you that think the government couldn't/wouldn't do it:
Bueller?
It's not that I doubt the ability of govt to do nefarious things. Far from it. It's that I doubt the ability of govt to do incredibly complex things requiring thousands of co-conspirators for very specific purposes and then keep it a secret for any amount of time.
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:03   #55
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Of course a jet liner could compromise a building to the point that it fell - even if the building was designed to withstand a larger jet hitting it.
Think of the ramifications of this statement. If the conspiracy existed, then the engineers who planned it understood this better than you and I. How is it possible that they planned a controlled demolition so perfect that even a 767-200 impact and an hour long fire couldnt screw up the 1000's of wires and controls necessary to drop the building PLUS ensure that no evidence of demo was found in the rubble......ever?

Do you know how many people had access to the site that would have to be included in the conspiracy so that they didnt report the existence of demo evidence? Not to mention all the debris being trucked to Staten Island and then re-sifted?

Bone fragments were found on rooftops around WTC for nearly a decade. How is it that not one cap, not one demo rigging, not one piece of UXO was found?
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:42   #56
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The only maybe probable "conspiracy" was that proto Teaparty folks fought back and the Tangos drove the jet into Pensyvania farmland.
I'll always believe the Air Force smoked them
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:48   #57
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You guys feel free to continue to believe the fairytale govt. horseshit story.
Biggest crimescene in United States history,and they destroy it so damned fast,it makes your head spin.
But hey..keep thinking along the path of least resistance. There's a food pellet at the end..
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:48   #58
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One thing to consider is that there are forges that use Kerosene and air to soften steel to the point it can be easily hammered to a new shape. Just sayin'.
And the WTC towers were steel construction, but IIRC the building fašade was rather flimsy. Lots of glass and thin stainless steel. Definitely no armor plate.
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:58   #59
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The only maybe probable "conspiracy" was that proto Teaparty folks fought back and the Tangos drove the jet into Pensyvania farmland.
I'll always believe the Air Force smoked them
It was the single greatest act of heroism by American citizens in the history of the country and that's what you got?


I dont have words to describe how much I pity you.
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Old September 13, 2017, 14:59   #60
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The only maybe probable "conspiracy" was that proto Teaparty folks fought back and the Tangos drove the jet into Pensyvania farmland.
I'll always believe the Air Force smoked them
And while still unlikely, it's the ONLY one of the planes hijacked that day that could have more of a story to it. Sad if that's the way it went down (double entendre intended) but in either case lives were saved with it in a field rather than into the White House or Capitol.
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Old September 13, 2017, 15:07   #61
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It was the single greatest act of heroism by American citizens in the history of the country and that's what you got?


I dont have words to describe how much I pity you.
Did you ever see the pictures of the debris field?
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Old September 13, 2017, 15:07   #62
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The fact of the matter is, the doubt lingers because of a healthy dose of mistrust of the government.

That is a good thing.

Do I believe all of this controlled demolition stuff? Naw, not really. But I could whole heartedly believe that some sinister group within the government would ALLOW it to happen.
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Old September 13, 2017, 15:13   #63
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I guess they just manufactured all those phone calls in real time, the vote, the cockpit recording with the fight, and the recorded data that verified it all, then managed to get a pilot, a ground crew, a JSTAR (or some other control entity) and their ground crew, and dozens and dozens of air traffic controllers to go along with this (for 16 years apparently) oh, and fired a missile with evaporating components so it could never be found in the debris field (including the pieces that would be buried inside the jet after detonation).

Idiots.
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Old September 13, 2017, 15:15   #64
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Did you ever see the pictures of the debris field?
And what? It was too big, too small, too what for you to believe in your extensive debris field management history?
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Old September 13, 2017, 15:33   #65
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And while still unlikely, it's the ONLY one of the planes hijacked that day that could have more of a story to it. Sad if that's the way it went down (double entendre intended) but in either case lives were saved with it in a field rather than into the White House or Capitol.
Think of how bizarre this is. One the one hand, nefarious govt forces are trying to kill a couple thousand New Yorkers and 125 people in the Pentagon but not TOO MANY (which is why they needed to drop the buildings a "certain way") but, for reasons no one can elucidate, Flight 93 has to be stopped by shooting it down. Mmmmmm, no.

OK, the other hand, a benevolent but politically sensitive govt is somehow able to vector unknown fighters (because the 7 NORAD standby pairs are all accounted for that day and their flights recorded) and arent even relying on the FAA or NORAD at all to do this (because the FAA didnt even notify NEADS that Flt 93 was possibly hijacked until 4 minutes after it impacted in Shanksville) and they apparently somehow do this to save American lives using an air defense network that NORAD and the FAA is entirely ignorant to........even though the post Cold War military was basically being drawn down to skin and bones for all things strategic.

The Pentagon cant be in charge of this complex aerial operation because they are actually a target. So, who does that leave? Must have been the Civil Air Patrol because, you know Lee Harvey Oswald was in CAP.....oh it all makes sense now.
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Old September 13, 2017, 16:31   #66
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I guess they just manufactured all those phone calls in real time, the vote, the cockpit recording with the fight, and the recorded data that verified it all, then managed to get a pilot, a ground crew, a JSTAR (or some other control entity) and their ground crew, and dozens and dozens of air traffic controllers to go along with this (for 16 years apparently) oh, and fired a missile with evaporating components so it could never be found in the debris field (including the pieces that would be buried inside the jet after detonation).

Idiots.
No need for name calling, it only makes you look as if you aren't able to formulate a valid argument.

So you're going to sit here and tell me an aluminum tube with aluminum tabs sticking out of the sides and the top traveling at 781fps punched through 14 inches of structural steel, completely no pieces sheared off, and then dumped 14,000 gallons of jet fuel which was all contained within the building where it burned hot enough to melt the steel and cause the building to collapse, but not melt the theoretical evidence inside the aircraft?

Do you think before you post this stuff?
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Old September 13, 2017, 16:54   #67
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[QUOTE=jhend170;4477832]
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Um yeah.

My FAL can punch holes into steel plate... with LEAD. How can that BEEEEEEEE?????? I mean steel is a LOT harder than lead... right?

1983. Hurricane Alecia hits Houston. Grandparents lived in the same house for 50+ years. Had a little tin-roofed barn behind the house. Tornado touches down REAL close, sucks some of the corrugated tin off the little barn. There was a pecan tree about a foot thick about 20 feet away or so. One of the pieces of tin, about 8ft long and 2ft wide, hit the tree perfectly with it's end edge. Cut half way through the tree. There was no pulling it out, we had to cut the tree down. But tell me, can you cut half way through a tree with a piece of corrugated tin? Of course not, but there it was.

I'm not sure how to explain this one. Your 7.62 is 7.62 mm wide traveling at 2750fps, the aircraft in question is 16 feet wide and was traveling at 781fps. I'll bet you can't figure a way to launch a beer can full, or empty and get it to penetrate a steel security door.

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He asked how aluminum could get through steel. I showed 2 examples of something that doesn't make sense, unless you have a grasp of how softer things can go through things that are harder.

How about this one, if "anecdotal first hand" observations don't do it for you.



Fleck of old paint that hit the windshield of the space shuttle. Are we there yet or do I need to continue to 'spain "energy is mass in motion?"

And you know building 7 had a few thousand gallons of diesel fuel in it that also burned, right?
Velocity is the key to penetration, how fast was the shuttle traveling when it was hit by the paint chip?
FYI polycarbonate has different characteristics than steel, just like pecan wood.
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Old September 13, 2017, 16:57   #68
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I've had numerous people insist steel wool won't burn, because it's "steel". All it takes is a match and thirty seconds to prove them wrong.
A 9 volt battery is instant....
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Old September 13, 2017, 17:02   #69
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Of course a jet liner could compromise a building to the point that it fell - even if the building was designed to withstand a larger jet hitting it.
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Originally Posted by chet View Post
Think of the ramifications of this statement. If the conspiracy existed, then the engineers who planned it understood this better than you and I. How is it possible that they planned a controlled demolition so perfect that even a 767-200 impact and an hour long fire couldnt screw up the 1000's of wires and controls necessary to drop the building PLUS ensure that no evidence of demo was found in the rubble......ever?

Do you know how many people had access to the site that would have to be included in the conspiracy so that they didnt report the existence of demo evidence? Not to mention all the debris being trucked to Staten Island and then re-sifted?

Bone fragments were found on rooftops around WTC for nearly a decade. How is it that not one cap, not one demo rigging, not one piece of UXO was found?
I think you misread my statement here? I'm agreeing that a jet can (or could) damage a building to the point of failure - even if the building were designed to withstand that (or a larger) impact.

Chet - I notice that most or all of your responses to me are focused on the discrediting of the Architects & Engineers for 911 Truth (you could sign in...), or on the "why would they do it that way" line of investigation. Maybe it was a two-fer? I don't know.

But you skipped completely the question about asymmetrical damage and perfectly symmetrical falling - which is highly suspicious - not once, but THREE times in one day. With different damage patterns. I notice that your point about building 7 is that one corner was completely missing. Still fell straight down, right?

Can you tell me about L. Silverstein saying that they (he and the FDNY) decided to "pull it" (building 7)? What is that? Can you tell me about the BBC reporter that reported that Building 7 had just fallen - twenty minutes before it (Surprisingly!) fell? Those are weird coincidences, aren't they?

What about the FDNY guys who were interviewed and heard all the explosions at ground level before the buildings came down? Their Chiefs were telling them to write it in their journals BEFORE they got interviewed or watched television and got their stories mixed up. Isn't that weird?

And you know the FBI gave the explosives to the Mullah that tried to blow up the WTC earlier, right? Omar Abdel-Rahman - you do or don't remember that guy? How hard is it to see that funny stuff has been going on here for a while?


Finally, your argument seems to hinge on "Parts of the government are bad enough to do it, but they couldn't pull it off without getting caught."

Did you notice that when the stakes are high, no one says anything? Want an example or three? All the hit squads for Stalin. The OGPU/NKVD guys that were killing people just to instill fear? They had to sign for the quotas. And it had to go all the way to Stalin, who would NOT sign, until the underlings had signed. That way they all hanged if one of them hanged. Everyone had it ALL on the line. And no one talked. NONE OF THEM. Know why? Because they and their families were going to be hunted like rabid dogs if it came out. The documentation existed, and only came out after the Wall came down.

How about the NAZIs and the Final Solution? Who talked about this? No one. Know why? Because the stakes were so high, and people that were involved were at risk. This isn't a case of getting "immunity". This is not that.

Are they capable of pulling this off without getting caught? I don't think so - which is why there are all these real life engineers and demo experts (not you) saying that the official story sucks.


I'm not saying I know what happened. I'm saying that the Official Story doesn't pass the smell test.
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Old September 13, 2017, 17:28   #70
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He asked how aluminum could get through steel. I showed 2 examples of something that doesn't make sense, unless you have a grasp of how softer things can go through things that are harder.

How about this one, if "anecdotal first hand" observations don't do it for you.



Fleck of old paint that hit the windshield of the space shuttle. Are we there yet or do I need to continue to 'spain "energy is mass in motion?"

And you know building 7 had a few thousand gallons of diesel fuel in it that also burned, right?

Yeah, I know there was diesel. that's why FDNY said they couldn't put it out. So what did they do about that? Did you see what the building owner said they did? They got that one on video.

My point to you is that you should hardly be the one calling people stupid given your misunderstanding of what is "normal" and what is "hard to explain". Here's some help:

"Soft" and "Hard" are not the issues here. Your "lead" and "steel" example is silly. It would have been sorta in the ball park if you were telling everyone here that you can shoot holes in steel plate with your aluminum bullets at .38SPL velocities. But you weren't.

Your story about sheet steel cutting a tree is hardly "something that doesn't make sense", since the steel is hard, has good tensile strength, and is rigid in the direction of the sheet goods that hit the tree. It's also moving very fast, so the inertia (or 'moment' iirc) has a high value.

You should stay away from making comparisons or analogies with physics. And calling people stupid.
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Old September 13, 2017, 17:59   #71
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So you're going to sit here and tell me an aluminum tube with aluminum tabs sticking out of the sides and the top traveling at 781fps punched through 14 inches of structural steel, completely no pieces sheared off, and then dumped 14,000 gallons of jet fuel which was all contained within the building where it burned hot enough to melt the steel and cause the building to collapse, but not melt the theoretical evidence inside the aircraft?

Do you think before you post this stuff?
So this is where we find out who understands E=MC2 on a cognitive level and who doesnt.

Myth 1: 767-200 are simply "aluminum tubes". No. insert fuselage discussion here with pressure bulkheads and whatnot
Myth 2: Aluminum cant penetrate steel. No. insert photo of water cutting steel. Discuss mass times velocity in detail. Show distance between girders.
Myth 3: All the fuel was contained in building. No insert fireball pics again for people who must have small screens. Explain that any fuel that went out the fare side of the building was aerosolized, and therefore combusted instantly
Myth 4: Melt steel? No. insert discussion on structural steel and the temp it loses its strength. Show temp of room and contents and Class B fires. Wait for that to sink in.
Myth 5: The evidence melted! No. insert list of recovered plane parts in the rubble. insert list of plane parts that passed completely through buildings and were recovered on roofs and streets.
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Old September 13, 2017, 18:03   #72
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I guess they just manufactured all those phone calls in real time, the vote, the cockpit recording with the fight, and the recorded data that verified it all, then managed to get a pilot, a ground crew, a JSTAR (or some other control entity) and their ground crew, and dozens and dozens of air traffic controllers to go along with this (for 16 years apparently) oh, and fired a missile with evaporating components so it could never be found in the debris field (including the pieces that would be buried inside the jet after detonation).

Idiots.
none of it was real time silly
audio wasn't released for a number of days

Debris field was huge

Only thing we could do was to smoke it.
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Old September 13, 2017, 18:23   #73
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So this is where we find out who understands E=MC2 on a cognitive level and who doesnt.

Myth 1: 767-200 are simply "aluminum tubes". No.
Myth 2: Aluminum cant penetrate steel. No.
Myth 3: All the fuel was contained in building. No Myth 4: Melt steel? No.
Myth 5: The evidence melted! No.
Copper, launched with sufficient speed, reliably penetrates steel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:07   #74
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Are you comparing H.E. and +20,000 fps detonation speeds with the plane hitting the buildings (WTC or Pentagon)?

Because this isn't helping any argument - in either direction.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:09   #75
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But you skipped completely the question about asymmetrical damage and perfectly symmetrical falling - which is highly suspicious - not once, but THREE times in one day. With different damage patterns. I notice that your point about building 7 is that one corner was completely missing. Still fell straight down, right?
What are you basing your suspicion on? What you saw in a movie, controlled demo videos, what? As I (and many others) have patiently explained over the years, the "damage patterns" of the initial impacts didnt have much to do with how the two towers dropped. A fire started by any cause that generated as much or more BTUs that compromised the strength of both truss systems in that time would have done it. The damage merely accelerated the fall.



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Can you tell me about L. Silverstein saying that they (he and the FDNY) decided to "pull it" (building 7)? What is that?
Yeah, it's a property owner talking to a documentary camera about his recollection of the day's events. Specifically, being told by a fire chief that, after the deaths of hundreds of firefighters and massive loss of equipment, that they were unable to put out the fire in WTC 7 and would therefore be abandoning efforts to do so. In response, the property recollects that he agreed the best course of action was to pull all firefighters back from the building.

What? You dont actually believe a real estate mogul was giving orders using quasi demo industry jargon to an FDNY commander who, instead trying to save lives that day, was actually moonlighting as a paid demo man and was simply waiting on Silverstein's order.........to which he inadvertently admitted ON CAMERA a year later? Spend a few posts explaining that one to me.



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Can you tell me about the BBC reporter that reported that Building 7 had just fallen - twenty minutes before it (Surprisingly!) fell? Those are weird coincidences, aren't they?
Yes, I can. As BBC has publicly stated, FDNY was telling media on scene that they expected WTC7 to collapse (see response above. This is what happens to steel superstructures with unchecked fires). Through the typical media mishmash, Reuters eventually released a blurb stating the building had actually collapsed not that it was expected to collapse. BBC and CNN used the blurb and then corrected themselves later.

What? You arent actually asserting that BBC and CNN were part of a conspiracy? Spend a few pages telling me what purpose this would serve, why conspirators would let media (of all entities) in on their nefarious plot at all, how they managed to control all these media entities 16 years since, and how this seemingly obvious error proves anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditor...acies_iii.html



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What about the FDNY guys who were interviewed and heard all the explosions at ground level before the buildings came down? Their Chiefs were telling them to write it in their journals BEFORE they got interviewed or watched television and got their stories mixed up. Isn't that weird?
Weird? Yes. I have heard many explosions during structure fires. Some explainable, some not. What does it sound like when a 40,000 square foot floor smacks into another 40,000 square foot floor a few dozen times in the space of a few seconds?

What? You arent pinning your theory on the first comments from firefighters, who bloodied and dust covered, just escaped with their lives and are being hammered with questions and repeatedly use the word "explosion" interchangeably with "collapse" are you? You arent claiming that these few words, despite the utter lack of video or physical evidence, somehow prove anything.

Again, show me evidence of explosives. If bone and plane parts are still being picked up, certainly a single piece of demo evidence will have turned up. No?



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Finally, your argument seems to hinge on "Parts of the government are bad enough to do it, but they couldn't pull it off without getting caught."
Yes, run the stakes up high enough, and a percentage of the conspirators will always confess.


Russia/Stalin/Death Squad: Stalin's campaigns were directed internally (Great Purge) and externally ( war crimes) and it was no secret to Russians, Poles, the Germans or anyone else. He wanted it that way. It didnt become a secret until MUCH LATER when those deaths embarrassed the state versus protected it. See how that works? Even then, Russians knew what was up and Stalin's men paid for it during the de-Stalinization of Khruschev's administration (to some extent). Gorbachev HANDED THE FILES ON KATYN TO THE POLES giving the names of all the men involved. Multiple confessions.


NAZIs and the Final Solution? Not a secret. People talked and wrote about it from the get go. Not to you and not to the sources of the history books you were taught but it wasnt a secret in any meaningful sense. Americans were largely IGNORANT to it at the time which is entirely different than something being secret or a conspiracy.1000's of people went along with it and lived an unabashed open life as executioners and SS men. Nobody tried to cover anything up until they started hanging guys with totenkopf runes on their hats.


I dont get it. You are smarter than this.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:26   #76
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none of it was real time silly
audio wasn't released for a number of days

Debris field was huge

Only thing we could do was to smoke it.
It was real time for the family members, ground operations people and 911 operators that received the calls, moron.

Dont click on this. You dont deserve to hear widows of heroes mourn their loss a decade later.




Debris field? Again, show me the facts. Show me how the size of this debris field indicates a missile strike. Show me the missile parts. Show me the plane that launched it, the pilot that flew it, the ground crew that loaded it. As stated, there were only 7 pairs of fighters in all of the US ready to fly with weapons that morning. All 7 pairs are accounted for. None of the hundreds of service men and women who would have been keenly interested in one of those planes actually firing a missile has ever put anything on record about such. Show me how an entity other than NORAD would vector these jets to Flight 93 since NORAD didnt even know it was hijacked.

Seriously, this discussion makes me ill. This is like trying to reason with ANTIFA
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:35   #77
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I'm coming back; it's gonna take a while.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Meanwhile, I'll say again that I don't know what happened. I just don't believe the story of 19 guys setting up multiple plane hijackings on a day that happened to be a NORAD/something-or-other drill, and knocked the Towers to the ground on their own footprint.

Maybe that's how it was, and maybe the Tangos just got luckier than one-in-a-billion.

I just don't believe it. The fact that it served as the kick-off to a multi-Trillion-dollar fiasco called Operation Whatever's Next only heightens my bias.

People telling me I'm stupid for not believing that 3 buildings *would* fall perfectly straight down with asymmetrical damage also makes me curious about the They Wouldn't Possibly Do That To Us bias that I see all the time.

But hey, maybe I'm stupid. Meanwhile, my corp taxes are due tomorrow morning, and I'm leaving at 10AM for the Washington FAL Shoot, so I'll be back later.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:39   #78
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Are you comparing H.E. and +20,000 fps detonation speeds with the plane hitting the buildings (WTC or Pentagon)?

Because this isn't helping any argument - in either direction.
The hell it isnt. E=MC2 is a numeric calculation dude, not a jumble of letters. Plug in the values.

Geez, what is your point? That we didnt see planes hit the buildings? That dozens of independent people filming that day are in on it? That these pieces of plane and people that are still being found in Manhattan over a decade later are planted? What?

How about you take a turn and explain the entire conspiracy thing in infinite detail so I dont have to assume you are as obtuse and superficial as these questions make you sound. Tell me how far the "smell test" has brought your investigation.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:47   #79
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Basically a 400k cruise missile loaded with 110k worth of slow burning napalm. A building that was turned into 10 or so stories of rubble out of 90 or so. The fact that it happened is not beyond the realm of design. The fact that bin ladens were ferried out of the country and the house of Saud was protected is where the real conspiracy lies.




Squirrel. Enter the MIC and petrodollar
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:07   #80
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For the edification of all who read: I did not become a firefighter until just after 9/11. It had no bearing on my decision to become one. In fact, I really didnt think much about until I fell into a discussion with a bonafide CT nut one day. And like these threads, claim after claim was easily refuted.

Since then, CTs usually fall into one of two stinking piles:

Pile A: Ignores copious factual information incessantly but offers no alternate theory. Has no concept of the ramifications of their questions.

Pile B: Ignores copious factual information incessantly but has an actual theory (in whole or part) but cant defend past the weakest of attacks.

There is no real difference between the two. One is just more enthusiastic than the other. In fact, the efficacy of a CT is strictly based on the speed and volume of questions they can raise, not the facts they build their theory on.

Since 9/11, I have met dozens, maybe hundreds, of people who were connected to the event in some way. I have trained with firefighters who were there, listened to their instruction, listened to their accounts. I have sat and talked with the pilot who was bumped from Flight 11. I sat and read the reports in working groups with fire marshals and chiefs to try and understand the event from a tactical and strategic level so I could better serve citizens in my community. In not one of those instances has any one of those people said "You know, this XXXX right here leads me to believe there was a conspiracy afoot beyond OBL and AQ." Not one. So when people post these anonymous and semi anonymous conspiracy tidbits or parrot the exact same lines that Rosie Odonnell and Kylie Jenner ooze, I just dont get it.

Are you stupid? Why would you piss on hero's graves on a guess? A hunch? A "sniff test"? Do you not have the time and wherewithal to challenge the voices in your head before you speak or type? What the heck? This "research" takes minutes.

Truly, I am embarrassed and ashamed of some of you.
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:17   #81
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Are you stupid? Why would you piss on hero's graves on a guess? A hunch? A "sniff test"? Do you not have the time and wherewithal to challenge the voices in your head before you speak or type? What the heck? This "research" takes minutes.

Truly, I am embarrassed and ashamed of some of you.
They were heroes, but I could see on many of their faces heading towards the shit that they knew they were walking into sure death and had to comply with orders and hold the line so to speak.
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:22   #82
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Thanks for the well reasoned input, chet.

For what it's worth, here are some videos of the twin towers, including the only known video of the first strike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3shmfKOZ9g
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:34   #83
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The fact that bin ladens were ferried out of the country and the house of Saud was protected is where the real conspiracy lies.
Squirrel. Enter the MIC and petrodollar
Foreign policy is good debate material. We can have valid, copious discussion about the actions of our govt before and after 9/11 and whether or not those actions helped or hurt OBL and AQ. But none of that has any bearing on whether or not the events of 9/11 occurred as reported. The events after 9/11 do not NEED a conspiracy to explain them.
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:37   #84
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It was real time for the family members, ground operations people and 911 operators that received the calls, moron.

Dont click on this. You dont deserve to hear widow's of heroes mourn their loss a decade later.

Debris field? Again, show me the facts. Show me how the size of this debris field indicates a missile strike. Show me the missile parts. Show me the plane that launched it, the pilot that flew it, the ground crew that loaded it. As stated, there were only 7 pairs of fighters in all of the US ready to fly with weapons that morning. All 7 pairs are accounted for. None of the hundreds of service men and women who would have been keenly interested in one of those planes actually firing a missile has ever put anything on record about such. Show me how an entity other than NORAD would vector these jets to Flight 93 since NORAD didnt even know it was hijacked.

Seriously, this discussion makes me ill. This is like trying to reason with ANTIFA
I don't give a single turd about made up heros
yeah all to justify a new narrative post Clinton

No, I don't think other people did 911
Not our government, da' JEWS, this was all Osama
Fighter in the air that day

To get your head around this, again there was no choice
thing was and remains if DC admitted smoking a passenger Jet it would be airline implosion

And of course Dumbya was able to weep & rally our people to cause
for the First Time in years America mostly stood as one
I was damn proud
He wasted that Capital on a two theater war on both sides of Iran

but that's all cool if you have a bubblenutz view of rather recent history.
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:53   #85
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Foreign policy is good debate material. We can have valid, copious discussion about the actions of our govt before and after 9/11 and whether or not those actions helped or hurt OBL and AQ. But none of that has any bearing on whether or not the events of 9/11 occurred as reported. The events after 9/11 do not NEED a conspiracy to explain them.
You're missing the point. It happened and I'm not structural engineer but have an afro engineering degree to realize that a plane slices through 1/2 or so the structure of a building it's not going to stand. My comments are based on the coverup and subsequent invasion of Iraq when they should have dropped the big one on SA. But no. Too much money from the Saudis, Haliburton et al.
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:07   #86
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I'm coming back; it's gonna take a while.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Meanwhile, I'll say again that I don't know what happened. I just don't believe the story of 19 guys setting up multiple plane hijackings on a day that happened to be a NORAD/something-or-other drill, and knocked the Towers to the ground on their own footprint.

Maybe that's how it was, and maybe the Tangos just got luckier than one-in-a-billion.

I just don't believe it. The fact that it served as the kick-off to a multi-Trillion-dollar fiasco called Operation Whatever's Next only heightens my bias.
Not to mention the Patriot Act waiting to be implemented.

It takes decades for the truth to come out on many incidents.
Gulf of Tonkin comes to mind.
No doubt fired on by the NVN!!! ........ until 30 years later or so, well we don't know what happened.

Simply put our govt lies too much about everything to ever believe the official line WITHOUT independent proof.




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Old September 13, 2017, 21:14   #87
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I don't give a single turd about made up heros
yeah all to justify a new narrative post Clinton
You are in interesting company. 51% of liberals agree with you. http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-sm...sh-knew-035224

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No, I don't think other people did 911
Not our government, da' JEWS, this was all Osama
Fighter in the air that day

To get your head around this, again there was no choice
thing was and remains if DC admitted smoking a passenger Jet it would be airline implosion blah blah blah .
Yeah, I have read your repeated drivel. You are making an assertion but you arent basing it on facts that prove your assertion. You havent even considered the ramifications of the assertion you have made. I have shared multiple facts and their sources with you but you ignore them. It's much like Bruce Jenner's claim to be a female-it's just an emotional appeal to confirmation bias. You and Bruce dont have any physical, demonstrative, digital, documentary or forensic evidence. Prima facie? Ha! Zero. The direct evidence you claim to have is hearsay only and, like Bruce's friends that claim he is a brand new woman, easily refuted by anyone with a passing understanding of the facts.

Seriously, I dont know how you function with this level of critical thinking. The semitic remark gives us vast insight into exactly what that level is.
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:15   #88
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You're missing the point. It happened and I'm not structural engineer but have an afro engineering degree to realize that a plane slices through 1/2 or so the structure of a building it's not going to stand. My comments are based on the coverup and subsequent invasion of Iraq when they should have dropped the big one on SA. But no. Too much money from the Saudis, Haliburton et al.

Oh dang. Another one.
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:50   #89
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Ok let's stop putting the cart before the horse, anyone ever get who filmed the first plane hitting and how it was on every news station that same morning in movie quality?

And Chet, you aren't the guy that got all pissy when the Sandyhook narrative got questioned are you?
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:53   #90
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I'm thinking we've gone about far enough with the serious stuff. It's obvious that people think what they think and none of us cantankerous old bastards will be swayed one way or the other. Meanwhile I found this to be a borderline silly, yet highly effective modeling of what impacts looked like. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdaetY_dZ0s
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Old September 13, 2017, 22:20   #91
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You are in interesting company. 51% of liberals agree with you. http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-sm...sh-knew-035224



Yeah, I have read your repeated drivel. You are making an assertion but you arent basing it on facts that prove your assertion. You havent even considered the ramifications of the assertion you have made. I have shared multiple facts and their sources with you but you ignore them. It's much like Bruce Jenner's claim to be a female-it's just an emotional appeal to confirmation bias. You and Bruce dont have any physical, demonstrative, digital, documentary or forensic evidence. Prima facie? Ha! Zero. The direct evidence you claim to have is hearsay only and, like Bruce's friends that claim he is a brand new woman, easily refuted by anyone with a passing understanding of the facts.

Seriously, I dont know how you function with this level of critical thinking. The semitic remark gives us vast insight into exactly what that level is.
you are one serious statist moron

I'm not debating how the Twin Towers came down retard and you have provided NOTHING regarding your "heros"
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Old September 13, 2017, 23:00   #92
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Rabble rabble rabble rabble!!

https://youtu.be/9gSQg1i_q2g
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Old September 13, 2017, 23:13   #93
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Ok let's stop putting the cart before the horse, anyone ever get who filmed the first plane hitting and how it was on every news station that same morning in movie quality?
If I remember correctly there was a documentary crew riding with a FDNY Battalion Chief, they were filming on a false alarm call when the plane flew over head. They were also filming with a 'probie' in one of the firehouses that day. This kind of news story and ALL the networks are going to pay whatever you want for the 'film.'
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Old September 13, 2017, 23:30   #94
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Ok let's stop putting the cart before the horse, anyone ever get who filmed the first plane hitting and how it was on every news station that same morning in movie quality?

And Chet, you aren't the guy that got all pissy when the Sandyhook narrative got questioned are you?
It's 16 years hence. Quit asking inane questions and make a point backed up with facts that answer all the questions your assertions require. Youve had time to develop one. Go.
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Old September 13, 2017, 23:34   #95
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I'm not debating how the Twin Towers came down retard and you have provided NOTHING regarding your "heros"
No, i get it. You are claiming the govt shot down 93 and, even though your baseless accusation would mean, at worst, that the folks on the flight were innocent American civilians, I'm a statist for honoring their memory.

Mkay. Tuck and smile. That will convince them.
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Old September 13, 2017, 23:56   #96
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No, i get it. You are claiming the govt shot down 93 and, even though your baseless accusation would mean, at worst, that the folks on the flight we're innocent American civilians, I'm a statist for honoring their memory.

Mkay. Tuck and smile. That will convince them.
no more baseless than your CNN sucking claim they didn't

you don't need to create fake heros to honor the dead dummy

You probably honestly believe McCain is a war "hero" too
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Old September 14, 2017, 00:30   #97
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Old September 14, 2017, 00:41   #98
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I just got done reading this, in fact, before Monday's anniversary. It goes into great detail about the specifics of the WTC construction, the design and the political shenanigans that the Port Authority pulled to set aside safety codes to allow the towers to be built in the first place.

I'm a layman, but the technicalities are laid out in a very digestible and easy to understand format. It really explains well what happened both from a human perspective (and it's heartbreaking) as well as an engineering perspective. It's well worth a read, I read it in two sittings and couldn't put it down.

https://www.amazon.com/102-Minutes-U...ds=102+minutes
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Old September 14, 2017, 02:05   #99
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Originally Posted by JonnyP View Post
I just got done reading this, in fact, before Monday's anniversary. It goes into great detail about the specifics of the WTC construction, the design and the political shenanigans that the Port Authority pulled to set aside safety codes to allow the towers to be built in the first place.

I'm a layman, but the technicalities are laid out in a very digestible and easy to understand format. It really explains well what happened both from a human perspective (and it's heartbreaking) as well as an engineering perspective. It's well worth a read, I read it in two sittings and couldn't put it down.

https://www.amazon.com/102-Minutes-U...ds=102+minutes
Thanks for the link. I just downloaded it to my Kindle. Gotta love The Files, never a shortage of opinions.
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Old September 14, 2017, 05:59   #100
RG Coburn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanni View Post
Not to mention the Patriot Act waiting to be implemented.

It takes decades for the truth to come out on many incidents.
Gulf of Tonkin comes to mind.
No doubt fired on by the NVN!!! ........ until 30 years later or so, well we don't know what happened.

Simply put our govt lies too much about everything to ever believe the official line WITHOUT independent proof.




................juanni
Yesss....the "Patroit" Act.... A bazillion pages....Congress forbidden from actually reading the damned thing,before it being voted on. Who exactly wrote it? And how long does it take to draft such a huge friggin' act? Years?
Hey Chet...how does an intact airliner with no holes in it,leave a debris trail 5 miles long? The terrorists opened the doors,and unbolted seats overheads,and tossed them out?
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