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Old September 12, 2017, 20:45   #1
rowjimmy
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Economic Warfare

... with China. So, we lock them out of SWIFT, they dump their Treasuries and replace the dollar. Trouble is a brewing, as always.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...orea-sanctions

"In an unexpectedly strong diplomatic escalation, one day after China agreed to vote alongside the US (and Russia) during Monday's United National Security Council vote in passing the watered down North Korea sanctions, the US warned that if China were to violate or fail to comply with the newly imposed sanctions against Kim's regime, it could cut off Beijing’s access to both the US financial system as well as the "international dollar system.""

Keep thinking NK is about Korea and not China...
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Old September 12, 2017, 22:06   #2
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Use the existing financial system as a weapon against other countries long enough and maybe they will get tired of it and set up a competing system outside of your control.

This is why a war will start, if it does.

Just ask Saddam Hussien and Muamar Quadafi. Oh yeah, you can't ask them anything anymore.

But China is not Iraq and Russia is not Libya.

Interesting times we live in.
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Old September 12, 2017, 23:10   #3
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Anything in this thread past these two posts is unnecessary.


Including this post.
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:51   #4
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What about this post?

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Old September 13, 2017, 23:00   #5
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China is a paper tiger, sorry to break that to y'all.

The USA can financially drop them into the toilet inside a week.

Every time someone says bring jobs back to America, make things in America, China pukes, then shit their little pants.

Whole cities built, huge ones, no one lives in them, can't afford the rent, all paid for by the government there.

People outside their cities are not eating well, the Chinese have even stepped up their plans to destroy the Christian underground churches, because they, the oh so all powerful Chinese, can't handle even a few drops of competition for the hearts and minds of their own people, who are aware of western freedoms and want them.

Economic warfare has been waged against us for over past 40 years, every time a made in china sticker shows up here in this country stuck to something, and each one represents another American out of work.

We're in a war of survival, going to get really wild, but at least now, we are inching back into the war.

Can the USA survive the upcoming economic war with China, oh hell yes, can they beat us at this war, oh hell no.

Why do you think they are doing anything positive, as little as it is with NK, because they understand they can't win.
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Old September 14, 2017, 07:06   #6
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China is a paper tiger, sorry to break that to y'all.

The USA can financially drop them into the toilet inside a week.

Every time someone says bring jobs back to America, make things in America, China pukes, then shit their little pants.

Whole cities built, huge ones, no one lives in them, can't afford the rent, all paid for by the government there.

People outside their cities are not eating well, the Chinese have even stepped up their plans to destroy the Christian underground churches, because they, the oh so all powerful Chinese, can't handle even a few drops of competition for the hearts and minds of their own people, who are aware of western freedoms and want them.

Economic warfare has been waged against us for over past 40 years, every time a made in china sticker shows up here in this country stuck to something, and each one represents another American out of work.

We're in a war of survival, going to get really wild, but at least now, we are inching back into the war.

Can the USA survive the upcoming economic war with China, oh hell yes, can they beat us at this war, oh hell no.

Why do you think they are doing anything positive, as little as it is with NK, because they understand they can't win.
China right now is in it up to their eyeballs, pedaling as fast as they can to win the race/war/conflict with the US. The US on the other hand is only now even waking up to the notion that there's a contest on. If by some chance we ever get started China is toast. And they know it.
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Old September 14, 2017, 11:06   #7
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China right now is in it up to their eyeballs, pedaling as fast as they can to win the race/war/conflict with the US. The US on the other hand is only now even waking up to the notion that there's a contest on. If by some chance we ever get started China is toast. And they know it.
Yep!
Many people in this country really have no idea just how powerful this country really is, how it drives the worlds economy, and how damned weak the rest of the world combined compared to the USA.
We might catch a cold, but the rest of the world will die from TB.
We FEED about half the world, without us, about half does not eat.
Doom and gloom about the next "big thing" which will drop the USA to its knees is ever present.
If we wish to drop China into the toilet, simply don;t allow their container ships to dock in US ports for seven days.
Their lines of credit will dry up overnight.
Their only option, nuke us, ain't going to happen.
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Old September 14, 2017, 13:39   #8
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Yep!
Many people in this country really have no idea just how powerful this country really is, how it drives the worlds economy,....
You mean by printing money out of thin air and creating more debt?

Many people in this country really have no idea of the historical consequences of loose fiscal policy.
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Old September 14, 2017, 15:13   #9
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That one is necessary.
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Old September 14, 2017, 15:38   #10
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You mean by printing money out of thin air and creating more debt?

Many people in this country really have no idea of the historical consequences of loose fiscal policy.
In a word, yes. And that's exactly how it's been for the last 100+ years. And it's worth noting that this went on off and on for 130 years prior to that. United States Notes were issued by the treasury for around a hundred years or so starting, I believe around 1860 give or take and only ending during the Johnson administration. Just like FedRes notes, backed by exactly nothing other than the 'full faith and credit' blah blah blah.

I still find it fascinating that this actually works but there it is ... just like treason I suppose, if it prosper none dare call it bankruptcy ...
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Old September 14, 2017, 16:50   #11
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In a word, yes. And that's exactly how it's been for the last 100+ years. And it's worth noting that this went on off and on for 130 years prior to that. United States Notes were issued by the treasury for around a hundred years or so starting, I believe around 1860 give or take and only ending during the Johnson administration. Just like FedRes notes, backed by exactly nothing other than the 'full faith and credit' blah blah blah.

I still find it fascinating that this actually works but there it is ... just like treason I suppose, if it prosper none dare call it bankruptcy ...
While I concur with this being a fairly accurate description of a Nation's currency, when script was redeemable for metals it had more of a tangibleness to it IMO.

Regardless, to imply the debt-fueled expansion we've had since 1971 made us some kind of economic powerhouse misses the mark IMO.

The US won't be "destroyed," but the standard of living we are accustomed to and which has been borrowed on the backs of the young and spread via debauchment of the currency and abuse of our reserve status will come to an end.

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Old September 14, 2017, 17:04   #12
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While I concur with this being a fairly accurate description of a Nation's currency, when script was redeemable for metals it had more of a tangibleness to it IMO.

Regardless, to imply the debt-fueled expansion we've had since 1971 made us some kind of economic powerhouse misses the mark IMO.

The US won't be "destroyed," but the standard of living we are accustomed too and which has been borrowed on the backs of the young and spread via debauchment of the currency and abuse of our reserve status will come to an end.
Script was redeemable in name perhaps but there was never enough PMs to cover the script issued, in fact the whole reason US notes were issued in the first place was the US Government was out of money and needed funds to gun up for a war against the southern states. The thing is any government that has the PMs to fully back script currency doesn't need to issue it in the first place, at least not for fundraising purposes.

As to missing the mark, well there are more than one bull on this target it seems and again, while cognitive assessment argues for a truth built on factual reality the other bull, or 'mark' as it were indicates that you can in fact build an economy based on debt provided certain factors are met. At least for the practical lifetime of most folks.

As to your statement about standard of living, well you'll get no argument from me there in fact we've been seeing it since the '70s. And probably for quite some time prior to that.
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Old September 14, 2017, 18:35   #13
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Script was redeemable in name perhaps but there was never enough PMs to cover the script issued, ...
They should have some lending reserve requirement, like maybe 10%


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As to missing the mark, well there are more than one bull on this target it seems and again, while cognitive assessment argues for a truth built on factual reality the other bull, or 'mark' as it were indicates that you can in fact build an economy based on debt provided certain factors are met. At least for the practical lifetime of most folks.
As long as they believe in the magic, it works. And if you steal the wealth slowly enough, you can keep the charade up for along time. I think the bankers perfected this in the 20th century. Historically, we're at the end of most reserve currency cycles, but they didn't have nukes back in the day to argue the point either.

Quote:
As to your statement about standard of living, well you'll get no argument from me there in fact we've been seeing it since the '70s. And probably for quite some time prior to that.
When Nixon took us off the gold standard, inflation took off for sure.
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Old September 14, 2017, 18:49   #14
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Well, ain't much we can do about any of it, if system falls apart, we pick up and rebuild everything again, until it falls apart, then we repeat.

Not like humans are getting any smarter and sure as hell, politicians ain't going to do shit except care for themselves.

Note to self, if I'm wrong:

More ammo!

Shit, I'm actually ready for a little Mad Max action, been a rough week here!
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Old September 14, 2017, 18:58   #15
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They should have some lending reserve requirement, like maybe 10%




As long as they believe in the magic, it works. And if you steal the wealth slowly enough, you can keep the charade up for along time. I think the bankers perfected this in the 20th century. Historically, we're at the end of most reserve currency cycles, but they didn't have nukes back in the day to argue the point either.



When Nixon took us off the gold standard, inflation took off for sure.
We were not on the gold standard when Nixon was elected. The price of gold was fixed at $35 an ounce but this really cannot be considered a gold standard when it was not legal to actually own gold bullion. FRNs to the best of my knowledge were never redeemable in gold and remain so to this day.

Yes to the 'I believe in magic' but to be honest there's a certain amount of magical belief in any sort of money, be it golden tokens or printed paper. It's all about faith, confidence and where the great unwashed tend to place these things. Recent development with respect to education, general awareness and knowledge of things monetary would argue that the magic isn't gonna change direction any time soon. I could always be wrong though, predicting what the herd is gonna do is a dicey prospect on even a good day.
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Old September 14, 2017, 19:03   #16
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Well, ain't much we can do about any of it, if system falls apart, we pick up and rebuild everything again, until it falls apart, then we repeat.

Not like humans are getting any smarter and sure as hell, politicians ain't going to do shit except care for themselves.

Note to self, if I'm wrong:

More ammo!

Shit, I'm actually ready for a little Mad Max action, been a rough week here!
There have been exceptional deals on M193 and 7.62 lately. I've been tempted to pull the trigger.

I looked around the other day and thought, "I think I have enough ammo."

What does that say about me?

But, in fairness, seeing the warning signs for when it starts to unravel by keeping an eye on such things can keep you a tad ahead of the curve. I think that is why we discuss current events.
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Old September 14, 2017, 19:06   #17
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We were not on the gold standard when Nixon was elected. The price of gold was fixed at $35 an ounce but this really cannot be considered a gold standard when it was not legal to actually own gold bullion. FRNs to the best of my knowledge were never redeemable in gold and remain so to this day.
....
I think you're mistaken Bubba. While citizens could not convert dollars for gold, foreign governments could, and the French were trading their dollars for our gold when Nixon said, '"No more." Ending that convertability was the final nail in the dollar's coffin IMO. But, on the bright side, we were able to finance the Vietnam war, so that was a big win for us.

The Petrodollar replaced Bretton Woods at that juncture IIRC. Was it just my use of the term "gold standard" you took issue with?
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Old September 14, 2017, 19:22   #18
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I think you're mistaken Bubba. While citizens could not convert dollars for gold, foreign governments could, and the French were trading their dollars for our gold when Nixon said, '"No more." Ending that convertability was the final nail in the dollar's coffin IMO. But, on the bright side, we were able to finance the Vietnam war, so that was a big win for us.

The Petrodollar replaced Bretton Woods at that juncture IIRC. Was it just my use of the term "gold standard" you took issue with?
Well obviously it wasn't the final nail, the coffin's remained open for 45 years since Nixon did that and if the corpse was gonna rot solely on account of it it probably would have done so by now. And as far as financing the VN war Nixon made that change in, as I recall 1973. The halcyon days of the VN war were a good five years before that, the runup to the war predated even this by another five.

Nope, Johnson financed the buildup by raiding what was even at the time laughably called the 'social security trust fund' and using it to fund the war. And in classic LBJ style this funding incidentally included an awful lot of concrete poured by none other than a well known construction company owned by his wife's family.

Didn't really take issue with 'gold standard' per se but the implication of the phrase is that a gold standard script is freely convertible on demand for a fixed amount of gold, which was hardly the case even with foreign governments (operative word 'freely'). And in fact illegal for US Citizens.
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Old September 14, 2017, 19:51   #19
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There have been exceptional deals on M193 and 7.62 lately. I've been tempted to pull the trigger.

I looked around the other day and thought, "I think I have enough ammo."

What does that say about me?

But, in fairness, seeing the warning signs for when it starts to unravel by keeping an eye on such things can keep you a tad ahead of the curve. I think that is why we discuss current events.
Agree fully, had a really fugged up day.

I stopped counting at 25,000 center fire rifle rounds, 5,56 and 308.
No idea on handgun, 45 and 9mm
No idea on all the odd stuff, 38/357, 30/30, 30.06 etc.
Got six fresh cases of 7.62x39, and a couple cases of Chinese steel core in spam cans, and two cases, big ones, 1400 rounds???? of 7.62x54R for feeding the druganov's, they eat a lot of that silver tip stuff, but been shooting the Romanian copies last few years, them other two have turned into collector items and my eyes can't tell the difference any more anyway.

Any warning is a good warning.
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Old September 14, 2017, 19:55   #20
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Well obviously it wasn't the final nail, the coffin's remained open for 45 years since Nixon did that and if the corpse was gonna rot solely on account of it it probably would have done so by now. And as far as financing the VN war Nixon made that change in, as I recall 1973. The halcyon days of the VN war were a good five years before that, the runup to the war predated even this by another five.

Nope, Johnson financed the buildup by raiding what was even at the time laughably called the 'social security trust fund' and using it to fund the war. And in classic LBJ style this funding incidentally included an awful lot of concrete poured by none other than a well known construction company owned by his wife's family.

Didn't really take issue with 'gold standard' per se but the implication of the phrase is that a gold standard script is freely convertible on demand for a fixed amount of gold, which was hardly the case even with foreign governments (operative word 'freely'). And in fact illegal for US Citizens.
It's been a process for sure. But I think the biggest hindrance to excessive monetary printing was the convertibility of the dollar to gold. I trust your judgement and recollection in most matters, but I'm usually good with some dates, and this source says 1971, if you can believe the horse's mouth (but perhaps that is the wrong end)

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...rtibility_ends

Clearly the demise of the gold standard was a two pronged attack, first FDR for US citizens in 1934, then Nixon for foreign governments in 1971.

As far as the nail in the coffin analogy, the fact that you are stuck in the coffin with the decaying body and the overwhelming stench seems to cloud your assessment. The biggest factor affecting a consumer (aside from government sanctioned and coercive monopolies on goods and services) is a government sanctioned monopoly on the currency and the subsequent fleecing of said consumer via inflation caused by reckless monetary policy.

I've quoted it before, but it bears repeating:

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

Ludwig von Mises
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Old September 14, 2017, 20:05   #21
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It's been a process for sure. But I think the biggest hindrance to excessive monetary printing was the convertibility of the dollar to gold. I trust your judgement and recollection in most matters, but I'm usually good with some dates, and this source says 1971, if you can believe the horse's mouth (but perhaps that is the wrong end)

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...rtibility_ends

Clearly the demise of the gold standard was a two pronged attack, first FDR for US citizens in 1934, then Nixon for foreign governments in 1971.

As far as the nail in the coffin analogy, the fact that you are stuck in the coffin with the decaying body and the overwhelming stench seems to cloud your assessment. The biggest factor affecting a consumer (aside from government sanctioned and coercive monopolies on goods and services) is a government sanctioned monopoly on the currency and the subsequent fleecing of said consumer via inflation caused by reckless monetary policy.

I've quoted it before, but it bears repeating:

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

Ludwig von Mises
All good reasons for a paid off house, one years worth of food, ability to grow more, clean water supply under your sole control, a septic tank, wood stove, lots of ammo.

Things get really bad, home values go to near zero, no one has money, and taxes go near zero, so got something to eat, nothing no one can take back bought on credit, just ride out the storm at home.
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Old September 14, 2017, 21:33   #22
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We live inside a contrived insane asylum, combating the crazy which are controlled by the administrators and we are kept in a state of fighting the crazy while the administrators abscond with all of our wealth and efforts while they pay the crazy out of those profits to keep it up.

There is no way out of this place.
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Old September 14, 2017, 21:37   #23
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We live inside a contrived insane asylum, combating the crazy which are controlled by the administrators and we are kept in a state of fighting the crazy while the administrators abscond with all of our wealth and efforts while they pay the crazy out of those profits to keep it up.

There is no way out of this place.
I think they keep us fighting each other.

There is a way out. But it is not palatable to most and to those it is, many simply choose to remain "civilized."

Nice to see you chime in.
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Old September 14, 2017, 21:49   #24
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I think they keep us fighting each other.

There is a way out. But it is not palatable to most and to those it is, many simply choose to remain "civilized."

Nice to see you chime in.
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Old September 14, 2017, 22:27   #25
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I think they keep us fighting each other.

There is a way out. But it is not palatable to most and to those it is, many simply choose to remain "civilized."

Nice to see you chime in.
Everything in its proper time and place.
When its time to set things straight, just don;t ever allow it to ever take root again.
Civilization is often a boat anchor around folks necks keeping them from doing what they know needs to be done.
However, all chains do break one day.
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Old September 14, 2017, 22:46   #26
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When they try to steal more sane peoples contrived chains than they can swim with . . .
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Old September 15, 2017, 08:59   #27
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Not to steer back toward the original topic, but to think China is a paper tiger dependent on US dollars today is a fools errand.
They have taken those US dollars for decades and invested them all over the world. From Africa to Australia to S. America to the USA, they own or have interests just about everywhere.
To my simple mind, the most troubling is the fact they own tremendous interests in shipping ports and distribution points everywhere. From the port of Sydney to the Panama Canal to Port Los Angeles, they own or aim to own it all.
The Panama Canal I find very interesting, as they own ports at each end and have security forces there than any accounts I've read refer to as a Canal Protection "Army".
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Old September 15, 2017, 11:03   #28
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Not to steer back toward the original topic, but to think China is a paper tiger dependent on US dollars today is a fools errand.
They have taken those US dollars for decades and invested them all over the world. From Africa to Australia to S. America to the USA, they own or have interests just about everywhere.
To my simple mind, the most troubling is the fact they own tremendous interests in shipping ports and distribution points everywhere. From the port of Sydney to the Panama Canal to Port Los Angeles, they own or aim to own it all.
The Panama Canal I find very interesting, as they own ports at each end and have security forces there than any accounts I've read refer to as a Canal Protection "Army".
In an economic war, like real warfare, enemy assets, are all fair game.

That nationalization thingy comes to mind quickly for Chinese assets worldwide, if things ever get to that point.

No one owns anything, if they can't hang onto it.

Last time I checked, China has one small carrier and no where near the air transport to haul even a tiny fraction of their vaulted armed forces. Transport by ship, the ocean bottom is littered with wrecks.

China has a land locked conventional force, they can't feed, if all are in the field for any length of time.

Those logistics, or lack there of, simply kill armies.
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Old September 15, 2017, 11:57   #29
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Not to steer back toward the original topic, but to think China is a paper tiger dependent on US dollars today is a fools errand.
They have taken those US dollars for decades and invested them all over the world. From Africa to Australia to S. America to the USA, they own or have interests just about everywhere.
To my simple mind, the most troubling is the fact they own tremendous interests in shipping ports and distribution points everywhere. From the port of Sydney to the Panama Canal to Port Los Angeles, they own or aim to own it all.
The Panama Canal I find very interesting, as they own ports at each end and have security forces there than any accounts I've read refer to as a Canal Protection "Army".
I dunno if anyone's quite called 'em a paper tiger and your points are well taken. The thing is that China is hell bent on conquest and is making flank speed towards world economic domination. In short they are doing all they can do and while they're gaining, we haven't even recognized that it's game day yet. When we do things are gonna change, and probably quickly.
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Old September 15, 2017, 12:53   #30
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I dunno if anyone's quite called 'em a paper tiger and your points are well taken. The thing is that China is hell bent on conquest and is making flank speed towards world economic domination. In short they are doing all they can do and while they're gaining, we haven't even recognized that it's game day yet. When we do things are gonna change, and probably quickly.
Other than their nukes, which they have, and like us, can hit anything world wide, I'm kinda in tha paper tiger camp.

With conventional forces, its all about getting what ya got to where its needed.

There is a very good reason, when anything happens worldwide, it's tha USA that plays the Calvary and comes to the rescue, we're about it for force projection large scale worldwide.

Ever seen Chinese or Russian air transports aiding Earthquake victims, nope, they simply don;t the numbers of heavy lift capacity to project their forces.

And they would if they could, good PR.
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Old September 16, 2017, 07:57   #31
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Points taken...
But, finding out it's game day late, after you've outsourced most if not all of your manufacturing capabilities and find yourself eye balls deep in debt, dosent exactly lend to recovery...
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Old September 16, 2017, 11:47   #32
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Dammit, keep this thread on track!!!


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Old September 16, 2017, 13:19   #33
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Points taken...
But, finding out it's game day late, after you've outsourced most if not all of your manufacturing capabilities and find yourself eye balls deep in debt, dosent exactly lend to recovery...
Trumpster already did what I wanted with the SC justice.
That pretty much takes care of my domestic concerns.
Guns!

IF, big if, he can reverse the loss of "Made in America" he'll have done something.

Economic warfare breaks out for real, we'll win.

The world was stupid enough to take our paper money not backed by anything, like taking a check from a man without a checking account and no identification, hell, just print a 20 trillion bank note, and pay off the national debt!

IF, another big ass IF, we simply declared bankruptcy, paid off pennies on the dollar to our creditors, they would stop sending goods into this country.

If they stop sending in goods, great, we go back to making our own goods, a real win for the people here.

Give it 3 years, and we'd be shipping goods worldwide again, as the actions above would destroy the worlds economies.

Everyone keeps looking at this from a global perspective.
What's our actions going to do to all the other countries.

In warfare, for survival, you don;t give a shit about any but yours.

The USA can destroy the whole worlds economies overnight.
The world working together, which would never happen, but even if they tried, can't destroy the USA's.

We print money, the world has accepted our worthless money, all of their economies is based upon our worthless paper money, shit, declare all of our current currencies insolvent, no longer accepted as money by us, print new money for internal use, set the value at some level, pay off the old debt with new money,,,,,,

Economic warfare can take many forms.
But one thing is always real, we can survive without the world, the world cannot survive without us.

And if they do get crazy, and they would, we still have a military larger than the worlds whole combined forces, as for destructive power and projection.

I'm not advocating any of this shit, but off the top of my head, ain;t real worried about it either.

Its always nice to be the biggest meanest dog in the dog pound.
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Old September 17, 2017, 15:28   #34
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Points taken...
But, finding out it's game day late, after you've outsourced most if not all of your manufacturing capabilities and find yourself eye balls deep in debt, dosent exactly lend to recovery...
This is not the first time we've found ourselves here. I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the American psyche that insist on giving our adversaries every advantage and only rallying ourselves at the last possible minute, just to see if we can. Almost like it's some kinda big game.

Whether we can actually pull it off this time remains to be seen. Last time it was a very near run thing.

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Old September 17, 2017, 15:46   #35
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This is not the first time we've found ourselves here. I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the American psyche that insist on giving our adversaries every advantage and only rallying ourselves at the last possible minute, just to see if we can. Almost like it's some kinda big game.

Whether we can actually pull it off this time remains to be seen. Last time it was a very near run thing.

b.
Relevant to this discussion is this article:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...rization-thing

I would bet dollars to donuts that this whole DPRK debacle is simply a stand off between us and China regarding the very issue of our reserve currency status. all the yapping about nuclear weapons is just a side show, as always the story the MSM is promoting is a distraction. Fake news, if you will.

We are an economic paper tiger, with phony "wealth" fabricated by exporting our inflation to other countries by debauching our currency. The time when we do that may fast be coming to an end. We do not drive the world economy, debt does, and we're just piling it up, there has been little organic growth since the 70's.

While we clearly spend more on our military than other nations, a rationale, thinking man would ask how much of that money is just fraud and waste, because we all know that exists in spades. And anyone who underestimates China, or especially Russia, and thinks we have them by the short hairs is a fool.

Of course, in the epoch of central banking, do nation states and countries still exist, or is it all a dog and pony show put on by the globalist bankers? Has the New world Order been implemented right under our noses and we've been living it the whole time?
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Old September 17, 2017, 17:01   #36
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Always an element of truth in the doom and gloom:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...hina-dumping-d
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Old September 17, 2017, 19:14   #37
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Always an element of truth in the doom and gloom:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...hina-dumping-d
The comments on ZH are always fun, not really, but this one sums all this crap for me.

""If you had been listening to Chris Martenson since 2010 you'd be living under a bridge by now!"

RJ, questions for ya and any others.

I'm not a financial guy, and it shows, I know.

What is the worst thing about any of this that could happen?

And how long would it take for us to climb/fight/claw our way out of it, and back up on top of this dog pound world of ours?

What would the worst thing that could happen, look like to us normal people?

I really don;t know and am curious about what exactly has got some folks so spooked.
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Old September 17, 2017, 19:24   #38
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...

What would the worst thing that could happen, look like to us normal people?

I really don;t know and am curious about what exactly has got some folks so spooked.
Something akin to Weimar Germany, but compounded with all of the social problems we have in our big cities. If the CDS's go boom ,and all the credit markets lock up, and many of the goods stop moving not only will you need wheelbarrows full of money to buy stuff, there won't be much stuff around to buy. Nobody is going to want to give up their goods if they don't get paid.

If foreign holdings of dollars are quickly repatriated, we see hyperinflation quite quickly.

At the very worst, people eating babies, it's happened before as you know.

You might well be fully prepared for all of this, but think of the the hundreds of millions who aren't. Contending with them might prove a challenge for some.

Of course, none of this may happen, but the fragility of the system makes it a distinct possibility. And nobody really knows what the transition will look like for us.
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Old September 17, 2017, 20:57   #39
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[QUOTE=yellowhand;447901
The world was stupid enough to take our paper money not backed by anything, like taking a check from a man without a checking account and no identification, hell, just print a 20 trillion bank note, and pay off the national debt!

IF, another big ass IF, we simply declared bankruptcy, paid off pennies on the dollar to our creditors, they would stop sending goods into this country.

[/QUOTE]

Who would get boofed the worst in your scenario, China, who as Yovinny said has bought assets with a lot of it, or us, who own the biggest chunk of our own debt?

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

Probably won't work out like you think.
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Old September 17, 2017, 23:36   #40
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^

Uh, yeah. So there's that...


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Old September 18, 2017, 00:03   #41
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Who would get boofed the worst in your scenario, China, who as Yovinny said has bought assets with a lot of it, or us, who own the biggest chunk of our own debt?

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

Probably won't work out like you think.
Someone is going to be harmed for the inaction/actions of the past 40 or 50 years concerning the financial mess we all find ourselves in today when it falls apart on it's own, or action is taken to correct it somehow.

I'm not advocating any type action, freely admit, I'm not a worldwide financial type guy.

I balance my check book, pay off my loans, own my home, don;t over extend myself with credit, and live within my means, actually somewhat below my means, so that I can bail myself out of any problems that might arise.

Our politicians spend every dollar they take in and then borrow more and more money daily to expand vs contract their obligations to pay off/pay down our existing debt loan.

If I was to do as they do now and have for many decades, I'd be put in jail.

10% of all money that comes in should be used to pay off the existing debt, monthly, like a credit card.
10% of all money that comes in should be placed into a rainy day fund for future problems.
No further deficient spending should be allowed, period. IE, take away their credit card.
Cut all taxes now paid by 20%.
And they can fight over how to spend the rest.
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Old September 18, 2017, 05:54   #42
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....

10% of all money that comes in should be used to pay off the existing debt, monthly, like a credit card.
10% of all money that comes in should be placed into a rainy day fund for future problems.
No further deficient spending should be allowed, period. IE, take away their credit card.
Cut all taxes now paid by 20%.
And they can fight over how to spend the rest.
You can increase revenue, cut spending, or both to reduce a budget deficit. Historically, regardless of income tax rate (from the lows we have now to the 90% brackets of the 50's) we take in 17-22% of GDP in tax revenue. So, the tax rate doesn't matter as much as some think, at least from a historical perspective.

So, you're reducing taxes by 20% and taking another 20% off the table, that's a 40% decrease in the budget monies. We're already spending half a trillion more than we take in annually now (who knows, maybe it's a trillion again, I stopped counting.) Where is that 40% coming from? Social security, medicare, defense? Of these three, defense is the smallest piece of the pie.

Our fiscal situation is not a pretty picture. But, it keeps chugging along, for now.
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Old September 18, 2017, 09:36   #43
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And how long would it take for us to climb/fight/claw our way out of it, and back up on top of this dog pound world of ours?
.

I'm glad you have such faith,,I dont.

The drive, work ethic and determination I see displayed by the 'Entitlement Generation', makes such faith seem the true paper tiger in my book.

And while I know many younger people today that display anything but those 'Entitlement' tendencies, least we not forget they seem in the majority and IMHO would be an insurmountable burden to any generation...

The greatest generation grew up in a depression,,,Raised by parents that lived through a world war....The Entitlement generation ??
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Old September 18, 2017, 10:13   #44
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...

The greatest generation grew up in a depression,,,Raised by parents that lived through a world war....The Entitlement generation ??
They may get the same opportunity the way we're headed.
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Old September 18, 2017, 10:24   #45
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Someone is going to be harmed for the inaction/actions of the past 40 or 50 years concerning the financial mess we all find ourselves in today when it falls apart on it's own, or action is taken to correct it somehow.

I'm not advocating any type action, freely admit, I'm not a worldwide financial type guy.

I balance my check book, pay off my loans, own my home, don;t over extend myself with credit, and live within my means, actually somewhat below my means, so that I can bail myself out of any problems that might arise.

Our politicians spend every dollar they take in and then borrow more and more money daily to expand vs contract their obligations to pay off/pay down our existing debt loan.

If I was to do as they do now and have for many decades, I'd be put in jail.

10% of all money that comes in should be used to pay off the existing debt, monthly, like a credit card.
10% of all money that comes in should be placed into a rainy day fund for future problems.
No further deficient spending should be allowed, period. IE, take away their credit card.
Cut all taxes now paid by 20%.
And they can fight over how to spend the rest.
Mathematically impossible to pay off the debt so long as you/we are using a debt-loaded currency, the fractional reserve lending practices that are much quoted and much misunderstood here and other places notwithstanding. You simply cannot pay back a debt when the act of creating the very money that will be used to pay it back incurs a debt worth more than the money is.

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You can increase revenue, cut spending, or both to reduce a budget deficit. Historically, regardless of income tax rate (from the lows we have now to the 90% brackets of the 50's) we take in 17-22% of GDP in tax revenue. So, the tax rate doesn't matter as much as some think, at least from a historical perspective.

So, you're reducing taxes by 20% and taking another 20% off the table, that's a 40% decrease in the budget monies. We're already spending half a trillion more than we take in annually now (who knows, maybe it's a trillion again, I stopped counting.) Where is that 40% coming from? Social security, medicare, defense? Of these three, defense is the smallest piece of the pie.

Our fiscal situation is not a pretty picture. But, it keeps chugging along, for now.
All true. None of it new, it's been going on uninterruptedly since 1913. And intermittently long before that even. The facts indicate that a scheme such as this can indeed survive, leaving only two related questions which are (1) under what conditions and (2) for how long?
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Old September 18, 2017, 13:46   #46
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I'm glad you have such faith,,I dont.

The drive, work ethic and determination I see displayed by the 'Entitlement Generation', makes such faith seem the true paper tiger in my book.

And while I know many younger people today that display anything but those 'Entitlement' tendencies, least we not forget they seem in the majority and IMHO would be an insurmountable burden to any generation...

The greatest generation grew up in a depression,,,Raised by parents that lived through a world war....The Entitlement generation ??
I sometimes remind people, that what we call the "Greatest Generation" began life during the "Roaring 20's" A "Decantant Group of lazy worthless near do wells" that then faced off on the depression, with joblessness, hunger, many cases of starvation, a period of time of no hope, Okies, world war, etc.

They rose to become the Greatest Generation though overcoming hardships, which put a solid foundation under them of what was truly important and moved this country into prosperity for the next 40 or 50 years?

For mankind to rise to its full potential, it needs a little fear, hunger, hopelessness!

Every new generation is looked upon as "snowflakes" by the one before it.
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Old September 18, 2017, 14:03   #47
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Mathematically impossible to pay off the debt so long as you/we are using a debt-loaded currency, the fractional reserve lending practices that are much quoted and much misunderstood here and other places notwithstanding. You simply cannot pay back a debt when the act of creating the very money that will be used to pay it back incurs a debt worth more than the money is.



All true. None of it new, it's been going on uninterruptedly since 1913. And intermittently long before that even. The facts indicate that a scheme such as this can indeed survive, leaving only two related questions which are (1) under what conditions and (2) for how long?
Ya got to start somewhere!
Goes back to how does one eat an elephant, one small bite at a time until the elephant is simply a memory.

Might be time to sell off Yellowstone, that should raise a few trillion, a gold only sell, and a gold only auction for a couple of states, say California and Washington state before the "big one" hits them all, and it cost all of us a fortune to pay for the repairs.

Whoever buys California gets NY thrown in as a freebie, but the new owners would need to wall off both properties as part of the deal.

Sell advertising space on the sides of all our warships, ok, not so much our subs, but all the surface ships, allow company logos on military uniforms, turn the Marines into a pay for play mercenary force, charges for action based upon population of countries, which anyone wants toppled.

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Old September 18, 2017, 14:16   #48
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Ya got to start somewhere!
Goes back to how does one eat an elephant, one small bite at a time until the elephant is simply a memory.

Might be time to sell off Yellowstone, that should raise a few trillion, a gold only sell, and a gold only auction for a couple of states, say California and Washington state before the "big one" hits them all, and it cost all of us a fortune to pay for the repairs.

Whoever buys California gets NY thrown in as a freebie, but the new owners would need to wall off both properties as part of the deal.

Sell advertising space on the sides of all our warships, ok, not so much our subs, but all the surface ships, allow company logos on military uniforms, turn the Marines into a pay for play mercenary force, charges for action based upon population of countries, which anyone wants toppled.

Well instead of selling off assets I'm kinda thinking repudiation. Who knows, it might actually teach folks to not go down that road again. And we get to keep what we still have. As long as we can defend it of course, then again that isn't exactly news either. Attempting to pay it off is enabling behavior and in my little mind anyway concedes the real issue. And will fail in any case.
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Old September 18, 2017, 15:21   #49
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Well instead of selling off assets I'm kinda thinking repudiation. Who knows, it might actually teach folks to not go down that road again. And we get to keep what we still have. As long as we can defend it of course, then again that isn't exactly news either. Attempting to pay it off is enabling behavior and in my little mind anyway concedes the real issue. And will fail in any case.
I could handle that as well, just write it off and let the shit fall where it falls.
Folks keep calling it economic warfare, is it time to actually treat it as real warfare?
If it truly is economic warfare, lets then treat it as a real war, destroy our enemies, then just be done with it.
Doing this would solve a host of problems, among them this so called globalist boggy man, everyone keeps talking about.
Ain't never met me no globalist, but I am sure, I don;t like the sob much!
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Old September 18, 2017, 15:32   #50
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Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
I could handle that as well, just write it off and let the shit fall where it falls.
Folks keep calling it economic warfare, is it time to actually treat it as real warfare?
If it truly is economic warfare, lets then treat it as a real war, destroy our enemies, then just be done with it.
Doing this would solve a host of problems, among them this so called globalist boggy man, everyone keeps talking about.
Ain't never met me no globalist, but I am sure, I don;t like the sob much!
Truthfully is there really any other kind? Or when we say 'economic war' do we really mean just 'economic shenanigans'? I'm kinda thinking if they're calling it a war, maybe it is. And if so we ought to treat it like one rather than just surrendering at the outset.

To letting stuff fall where it well, yep its gonna do that anyway only difference being that to my thinking anyway we will be better off when the real crap starts if we go earlier rather than later. Because we sure as shooting aren't getting anywhere the way we're going.
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