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Old September 23, 2017, 10:20   #1
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musta been a 9mm
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:39   #2
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I had watched that video earlier and wasn't sure why the cop shot the guy. He obviously was having trouble subduing him when they were both on the ground, he did the right thing when he stood up by backing away and creating distance, but why he was drawing his weapon and not a taser or baton I am not sure. It is unclear what the perp has in his hand, something he took from the cop? 6 shots to go down? I'm not bashing the cops, they only have seconds to make life and death decisions. Looking at this though makes you wonder...
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:51   #3
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The guy pulled something out of the cops belt, baton, mace, knife?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbCEjhqTX8
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:53   #4
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Originally Posted by SAFN49 View Post
The guy pulled something out of the cops belt, baton, mace, knife?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbCEjhqTX8
I'm not signing in to watch
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Old September 23, 2017, 11:08   #5
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Cop executed him. I watched enough times to determine the victim had no weapon in hand, just what looked like a sock, and the 7th round fired was into his back. After the first couple shots, he was no longer a threat, and if any one of us had done this, we'd go to prison.
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Old September 23, 2017, 11:57   #6
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Thumbs down

That kid could have easily been tackled, punched, batoned, tazed, - hell, bitch slapped.

Very BAD shoot
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Old September 23, 2017, 11:57   #7
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Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
Cop executed him. I watched enough times to determine the victim had no weapon in hand, just what looked like a sock, and the 7th round fired was into his back. After the first couple shots, he was no longer a threat, and if any one of us had done this, we'd go to prison.
So the hard black object in his right hand, that looks like a baton or knife, that he took from the officers belt was a sock????

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Old September 23, 2017, 12:00   #8
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Probably watched too many antifa confrontations and that thought he was immune
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Old September 23, 2017, 12:58   #9
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So the hard black object in his right hand, that looks like a baton or knife, that he took from the officers belt was a sock????

Guess your screen is better than mine, I/m using a ASUS netbook. I still think the shot in the back was un-warrented, regardless.
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Old September 23, 2017, 13:09   #10
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Am I seeing this correctly man gets shot 7 times for having a knife or a baton ?

Cop must have been majorly in fear for his life!!!

I suspect if one of us did what he did we would be in jail for murder.
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Old September 23, 2017, 14:36   #11
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Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
Cop executed him. I watched enough times to determine the victim had no weapon in hand, just what looked like a sock, and the 7th round fired was into his back. After the first couple shots, he was no longer a threat, and if any one of us had done this, we'd go to prison.
Sigh.

Read this before talking shit about something you know absolutely NOTHING about:

http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/260.html

Quote:
"It is always expected that officers perform at expert levels of shooting," Lewinski says. "If they fire excess rounds or make any mistakes, they are highly criticized and held accountable. Yet this study suggests, among other things, that many officers may be unable to cease firing instantaneously when the suspect is no longer a threat.

"Everything an officer does takes time. It takes time to perceive that a threat level has changed and it takes time to decide to stop shooting and to mechanically activate that decision. When officers are engaged in continuous rapid fire, as their training requires for defending their lives, the stopping process is more complex and generally takes longer."
If the officer perceived the guy was a deadly threat (which he obviously did as he shot him) he is entitled to continue to engage the threat until the threat has stopped. At this point, what exactly the suspect took from the cop's belt is unknown. I have read it was a magazine, pepper spray, a folding knife, a Taser or possibly a TDI backup knife. I will wait for the report but hey, nothing like jumping to conclusions based on your expert opinion after reviewing 10 seconds of video on a shitty screen...
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Old September 23, 2017, 14:37   #12
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Am I seeing this correctly man gets shot 7 times for having a knife or a baton ?
They didn't say he was shot 7 times, the cop shot seven times. I wonder how many hit the guy, and was the cop using a .22 short pistol? You hit a guy 6 times point blank and he doesn't go down??? The first 6 didn't even look like they fazed the guy. He was probably high on PCP or something.

I don't know what he grabbed from the cops belt in the struggle, but what ever it was it escalated the situation very quickly.

I would also like to see the whole video from the beginning and see how this started and how long they were rolling around on the ground before the guy took whatever it was off the cops belt. You can see toward the end where the cop has to go pick up his radio, so he lost that as well.
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Old September 23, 2017, 15:59   #13
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Sigh.

Read this before talking shit about something you know absolutely NOTHING about:

http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/260.html



If the officer perceived the guy was a deadly threat (which he obviously did as he shot him) he is entitled to continue to engage the threat until the threat has stopped. At this point, what exactly the suspect took from the cop's belt is unknown. I have read it was a magazine, pepper spray, a folding knife, a Taser or possibly a TDI backup knife. I will wait for the report but hey, nothing like jumping to conclusions based on your expert opinion after reviewing 10 seconds of video on a shitty screen...
I watched the vid while at max zoom after my initial post, in slow motion going back and forth, and I couldn't tell what was in his hand. If it was a knife it would have to be a damn large folder. My next question is, would the artical you linked to be admissable as a defenseive argument at my homicde trial, had I been a civilian shooter in the exact same scenario?
I ask as I'm quite certain that after the first 6 shots, had I put a 7th in the guys back, I'd be in a world of shit from the DA's office. And really, at that range I find it hard to believe the shooter missed with any one of the rounds he fired.
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Old September 23, 2017, 17:59   #14
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New video, different angle. Good shoot!!!!

https://www.facebook.com/EnoughLODD/...3238664965601/


I'm surprised the officer waited as long as he did to shoot him.
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Old September 23, 2017, 18:32   #15
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New video, different angle. Good shoot!!!!

https://www.facebook.com/EnoughLODD/...3238664965601/


I'm surprised the officer waited as long as he did to shoot him.
The different angle sheds a whole new perspective on the incident. As the kid approaches the cop it almost appears as if he pulls a knife? from his pocket and then flicks his wrist to extend the blade...he is holding something at an arms length when he closes with the officer. Cops are taught to shoot until the threat is down, took more than 1 or 2 shots for sure.
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Old September 23, 2017, 19:14   #16
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The cop hits him with a Taser right at the beginning of the video, with no effect. This was also reported in the LA Times. This shooting was only bad for the dead guy.
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Old September 23, 2017, 19:37   #17
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Maybe the guy was on drugs.

There are a lot of cases when a taser on a drugged up person did not work.
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Old September 23, 2017, 20:01   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
I watched the vid while at max zoom after my initial post, in slow motion going back and forth, and I couldn't tell what was in his hand. If it was a knife it would have to be a damn large folder. My next question is, would the artical you linked to be admissable as a defenseive argument at my homicde trial, had I been a civilian shooter in the exact same scenario?
I ask as I'm quite certain that after the first 6 shots, had I put a 7th in the guys back, I'd be in a world of shit from the DA's office. And really, at that range I find it hard to believe the shooter missed with any one of the rounds he fired.
For starters, you wouldn't be in the "exact same scenario" because you as a citizen are under no obligation to take anyone into custody. In addition, you don't routinely carry a belt full of shit that can be used to kill you if someone over powers you.

I'm not saying it was a folding knife, I'm saying it *could* have been one of these:

https://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/76

You might think that it is impossible to miss at that distance but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Police and citizens miss at conversational distances all the time. There is an apocryphal account of a detective who gets into an elevator to go arrest a bad guy but the bad guy gets into the elevator on a different floor. The story goes that they each realize who the other is and go to guns, both emptying snub nose .38's at each other within the confines of the elevator and failing to hit with a single round. I haven't been able to confirm the veracity of the tale but it is credible under stress. Cops aren't superheroes nor do they receive a fraction of the firearms training many of you think they do and most are pretty crappy shots.

FYI, I teach all of my students that they should shoot until the threat is over and all my classes are audio/video recorded with approval from the DA's office that the advice I am giving my students is current with State law. If ever one of my students gets into a gunfight or defensive shooting, they will know exactly what they can and cannot do. They will also know what to say, to whom and when. They should be insured by CCW Safe which is one of the best CCW insurers in the nation and will be defended by excellent attorneys with expert witnesses called in their defense. Given what I know about my DA's and their level of ability, they won't be going anywhere near a jail cell...

But to answer your question, yes, applicable parts of that article can certainly be used to justify a self defense shooting by a citizen. Its in the articulation of the threat posed by the aggressor (because as we have seen from the second video, the dude who was smoked was definitely the aggressor) and the perception of the person doing the shooting. Now we've seen the second video, wanna revisit your "execution" theory??
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Old September 23, 2017, 20:11   #19
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Originally Posted by the gman View Post
For starters, you wouldn't be in the "exact same scenario" because you as a citizen are under no obligation to take anyone into custody. In addition, you don't routinely carry a belt full of shit that can be used to kill you if someone over powers you.
In MO in the CCW class it is strongly recommended that you also carry less than lethal weapons along with your pistol, taser, baton among other things. The tasers are covered pretty well in the class, and the actual shooting requirement also covers what happens when 2 to the chest and he doesn't go down because he is wearing a vest. Third shot to the head.

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Old September 23, 2017, 20:23   #20
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Originally Posted by the gman View Post
For starters, you wouldn't be in the "exact same scenario" because you as a citizen are under no obligation to take anyone into custody. In addition, you don't routinely carry a belt full of shit that can be used to kill you if someone over powers you.

I'm not saying it was a folding knife, I'm saying it *could* have been one of these:

https://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/76

You might think that it is impossible to miss at that distance but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Police and citizens miss at conversational distances all the time. There is an apocryphal account of a detective who gets into an elevator to go arrest a bad guy but the bad guy gets into the elevator on a different floor. The story goes that they each realize who the other is and go to guns, both emptying snub nose .38's at each other within the confines of the elevator and failing to hit with a single round. I haven't been able to confirm the veracity of the tale but it is credible under stress. Cops aren't superheroes nor do they receive a fraction of the firearms training many of you think they do and most are pretty crappy shots.

FYI, I teach all of my students that they should shoot until the threat is over and all my classes are audio/video recorded with approval from the DA's office that the advice I am giving my students is current with State law. If ever one of my students gets into a gunfight or defensive shooting, they will know exactly what they can and cannot do. They will also know what to say, to whom and when. They should be insured by CCW Safe which is one of the best CCW insurers in the nation and will be defended by excellent attorneys with expert witnesses called in their defense. Given what I know about my DA's and their level of ability, they won't be going anywhere near a jail cell...

But to answer your question, yes, applicable parts of that article can certainly be used to justify a self defense shooting by a citizen. Its in the articulation of the threat posed by the aggressor (because as we have seen from the second video, the dude who was smoked was definitely the aggressor) and the perception of the person doing the shooting. Now we've seen the second video, wanna revisit your "execution" theory??
Another suicide by cop. That's about it. Those antifas are being thinned like Georgia. Tough shit.
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Old September 23, 2017, 22:00   #21
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For starters, you wouldn't be in the "exact same scenario" because you as a citizen are under no obligation to take anyone into custody. In addition, you don't routinely carry a belt full of shit that can be used to kill you if someone over powers you.

I'm not saying it was a folding knife, I'm saying it *could* have been one of these:

https://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/76

You might think that it is impossible to miss at that distance but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Police and citizens miss at conversational distances all the time. There is an apocryphal account of a detective who gets into an elevator to go arrest a bad guy but the bad guy gets into the elevator on a different floor. The story goes that they each realize who the other is and go to guns, both emptying snub nose .38's at each other within the confines of the elevator and failing to hit with a single round. I haven't been able to confirm the veracity of the tale but it is credible under stress. Cops aren't superheroes nor do they receive a fraction of the firearms training many of you think they do and most are pretty crappy shots.

FYI, I teach all of my students that they should shoot until the threat is over and all my classes are audio/video recorded with approval from the DA's office that the advice I am giving my students is current with State law. If ever one of my students gets into a gunfight or defensive shooting, they will know exactly what they can and cannot do. They will also know what to say, to whom and when. They should be insured by CCW Safe which is one of the best CCW insurers in the nation and will be defended by excellent attorneys with expert witnesses called in their defense. Given what I know about my DA's and their level of ability, they won't be going anywhere near a jail cell...

But to answer your question, yes, applicable parts of that article can certainly be used to justify a self defense shooting by a citizen. Its in the articulation of the threat posed by the aggressor (because as we have seen from the second video, the dude who was smoked was definitely the aggressor) and the perception of the person doing the shooting. Now we've seen the second video, wanna revisit your "execution" theory??
After watching the second video, sure, I'll retract my statement regarding the execution part. Here in the Great Soggy Northwest, you shoot someone in the back, for any reason, you'll likely be charged. Same with shooting someone forcing their way into your home. You have to wait till they're inside before using deadly force, even though I've been told by not a few LEOs that I should drag the body into the house, after I shoot someone outside.
Personally, I think that'd be a good way to ensure I go to prison. At any rate, I've taken your advice and printed it, along with the CCW safe advice. I'll be sure to look into them as well.
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Old September 23, 2017, 23:00   #22
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The different angle sheds a whole new perspective on the incident. As the kid approaches the cop it almost appears as if he pulls a knife? from his pocket and then flicks his wrist to extend the blade...he is holding something at an arms length when he closes with the officer. Cops are taught to shoot until the threat is down, took more than 1 or 2 shots for sure.
Nope, just watched another video with better sound. The cop tasered the guy and the flicking of the wrist was the guy pulling the taser probes out of himself.

So the taser didn't work, neither did the punches or the first 6 shots. The guy was a zombie.
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Old September 23, 2017, 23:25   #23
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Definitely on something then. I still feel the shooting was unnecessary.

At least at that stage.
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Old September 24, 2017, 01:50   #24
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a real cop wouldda used some wing-chung & kang fu and knocked that fool out.

but really, i vote "righteous shoot".
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Old September 24, 2017, 06:48   #25
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I guess snowflakes with no balls to counter an unarmed emo runt are accepted as LEO's these days.

Sad state of affairs.

Any run of the mill Bouncer from a corner bar encounters much worse situations (against MUCH LARGER) opponents on the regular, and without body armor or backup.

Last edited by LYCAN; September 24, 2017 at 07:00.
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Old September 24, 2017, 07:08   #26
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btw, if there is no massive OUTRAGE over this ... then I don't want to EVER hear a single word about Trayvon Martin ever again.

What's good for the Goose...

Just say'n

this kid is 1/2 Trayvon's size & wasn't on top of anybody

and was within spitting distance of a 2nd Officer
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Old September 24, 2017, 09:44   #27
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After watching the second video, sure, I'll retract my statement regarding the execution part. Here in the Great Soggy Northwest, you shoot someone in the back, for any reason, you'll likely be charged. Same with shooting someone forcing their way into your home. You have to wait till they're inside before using deadly force, even though I've been told by not a few LEOs that I should drag the body into the house, after I shoot someone outside.
Personally, I think that'd be a good way to ensure I go to prison. At any rate, I've taken your advice and printed it, along with the CCW safe advice. I'll be sure to look into them as well.
You are correct. Do NOT move, touch, tamper or otherwise handle any evidence at the scene of a self defense shooting unless it is needed for your safety or to render aid to the injured party. I could talk for hours on this but if you tamper with evidence, anything and everything you say can and will be treated as if you are a murderer who is attempting to frame the murder as self defense.

If the agency investigating a self defense shooting is of the mindset that shots in the back automatically merits charges, they are behind the times. Think of it this way:

You are walking down the street, bad guy jumps out with a knife and threatens you, demanding your wallet. You determine a deadly force response is needed so you step back, sweep your cover garment out of the way, draw your gun and present your piece to the threat. Bad guy advances, you now determine you need to shoot and begin to press the trigger. In the time it takes for you to make the decision to shoot and your finger to start pressing the trigger, the bad guy can realize you are serious and begin to turn away from you. Your brain sees the bad guy turn away but simply cannot tell your finger to stop pressing the trigger fast enough so as to avoid putting rounds into the bad guy's back.

Being shot in the back is not, in and of itself, indicative of malicious intent; it may be the simple physiological effect of the bad guy's reactions to your presentation and implementation of lawful deadly force. The human instinct, presuming it isn't clouded by drugs, alcohol or malicious, murderous intent, is to turn away from potential harm once it is presented. Look at the second video: the cop is turning away from the assault by the bad guy because he's HUMAN.

Doesn't matter if you are a cop or not, we're ALL human and have the same physiological responses and 'lag time' between making a decision and the body's ability to carry out that decision. This can be directly related to driver's ed: total stopping distance is the reaction time plus the actual braking distance based on the speed you were driving at. The time it takes you to realize you have to apply the brakes and actually applying the brakes can carry you a pretty long way, even at reasonable speeds. Most people, when it is explained this way, can understand the concept and it is a logical, reasonable explanation of how someone can be shot in the back during a self defense shooting.

Seriously, if you get nothing else from this thread, buy the coverage from CCW Safe. I don't get a kick back from you buying (but in the interests of full disclosure, I do if my students buy it with my code I give them but they also get a small discount too) their coverage but having reviewed all the CCW insurance out there, theirs is the best in terms of amounts covered, the work they will do to help you and the protection they provide. Expert witnesses, accredited in explaining concepts such as the one I just described will be on your side from the start and just having such resources may discourage the DA from pursuing charges at all.
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Old September 24, 2017, 10:38   #28
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Originally Posted by SAFN49 View Post
In MO in the CCW class it is strongly recommended that you also carry less than lethal weapons along with your pistol, taser, baton among other things. The tasers are covered pretty well in the class, and the actual shooting requirement also covers what happens when 2 to the chest and he doesn't go down because he is wearing a vest. Third shot to the head.

Train for real life even if you are an average citizen.
I agree with carrying less than lethal tools to a certain degree. I recommend pepper gel because it is simple to carry, relatively easy to deploy, often results in rapid incapacitation, is inexpensive, may have a dye added to it to aid in identification of the assailant and most importantly, is eminently defensible in court. Pepper spray sucks balls with cross contamination issues, wind drift and indiscriminate application being just a few reasons I hate the stuff.

Carrying an expandable baton and/or Taser may color a jury's thought process in categorizing you as a wanna be copper who was out looking for trouble, especially the baton. What your subjective intent may have been is neither here nor there when the jury decides your fate. In addition, Taser's often fail (ex the video being discussed here) and the baton requires extensive training to be effective. Hell, most cops can't effectively wield a baton, fixed or expandable so I have little hope for a citizen...

I sure as hell NEVER advise my students to carry more than one type of less lethal; that will never play well in front of a jury, an investigator or a DA. I also advise my students to get some basic physical self defense training too. Just a few simple moves to allow you to escape or defend yourself from an attack is all that is needed.

Of course, the thing I stress most in my classes is awareness and threat identification. Teaching people to shoot is easy; teaching them to get their heads out of their phones and pay attention to their surroundings is the hard part. The Cooper color code and the book "The Gift of Fear" are an integral part of my classes. Even though Gavin DeBecker is a liberal douche canoe, his book contains some really good information. If only he could have brought himself to admit firearms are the ultimate in self defense tools...

Two to the body and one to the head sounds good but in reality, people continue to shoot at the center mass unless extensively trained to do otherwise. I use Action Targets balloon reactive targets to privately train advanced students but my agency previously refused to buy them as they were "too expensive." A good friend was just promoted into the training supervisor position and is now going to buy some because the training value is massive. Take a look at the video and see how often cops keep shooting center mass, missing the damn balloon and NEVER transition to head shots...

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Old September 24, 2017, 12:13   #29
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I guess snowflakes with no balls to counter an unarmed emo runt are accepted as LEO's these days.

Sad state of affairs.

Any run of the mill Bouncer from a corner bar encounters much worse situations (against MUCH LARGER) opponents on the regular, and without body armor or backup.
Must be nice to be omniscient.
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Old September 24, 2017, 15:53   #30
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I guess snowflakes with no balls to counter an unarmed emo runt are accepted as LEO's these days.

Sad state of affairs.

Any run of the mill Bouncer from a corner bar encounters much worse situations (against MUCH LARGER) opponents on the regular, and without body armor or backup.
Funny, I've found most bouncers to be nothing more than bullies who get off on sucker punching drunks and who regularly call the police to help them in fights when they can't finish what their bravado has gotten them into. I repeatedly warned a local bar owner that his bouncers were out of hand and would get him into trouble if he didn't rein them in. He didn't listen and lo and behold, not 2 months later, one of his thugs sucker punches a drunk and busts up his orbital socket.

Fast forward to 2 years later and the guy who got beaten now owns a lien on the bar until they pay the $500K in damages they were awarded in the civil suit. The bar owner was so arrogant, he didn't even have liability insurance so now he's trying to sell his bar to settle the suit...

But yeah, carry on telling me about how awesome most bouncers are cuz from what I've seen of them on several continents, most can't hold down a decent paying job and they get off on physical violence.
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Old September 24, 2017, 17:13   #31
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Funny, I've found most bouncers to be nothing more than bullies who get off on sucker punching drunks and who regularly call the police to help them in fights when they can't finish what their bravado has gotten them into. I repeatedly warned a local bar owner that his bouncers were out of hand and would get him into trouble if he didn't rein them in. He didn't listen and lo and behold, not 2 months later, one of his thugs sucker punches a drunk and busts up his orbital socket.

Fast forward to 2 years later and the guy who got beaten now owns a lien on the bar until they pay the $500K in damages they were awarded in the civil suit. The bar owner was so arrogant, he didn't even have liability insurance so now he's trying to sell his bar to settle the suit...

But yeah, carry on telling me about how awesome most bouncers are cuz from what I've seen of them on several continents, most can't hold down a decent paying job and they get off on physical violence.
sheesh, that's nearly as bad of a stereotype as some that are applied to Police Gman.

Just sayn' most of the Clubs I either worked in or frequented staff never went looking for conflict with the customers. In fact someone had to do something seriously stupid to get shown the door like grope a waitress.
Folks that were just too drunk had a cab called for them, no they were not allowed to drive.

Some clubs staff will drive a drunk home even.

Yeah sure there are assholes who do club security
just as there are worthless dicks with badges that beat folks down
the difference is the badge usually gets away with it

Don't get me started on off duty LE drunked up at a titty bar
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Old September 24, 2017, 21:21   #32
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Funny, I've found most bouncers to be nothing more than bullies who get off on sucker punching drunks and who regularly call the police to help them in fights when they can't finish what their bravado has gotten them into. I repeatedly warned a local bar owner that his bouncers were out of hand and would get him into trouble if he didn't rein them in. He didn't listen and lo and behold, not 2 months later, one of his thugs sucker punches a drunk and busts up his orbital socket.

Fast forward to 2 years later and the guy who got beaten now owns a lien on the bar until they pay the $500K in damages they were awarded in the civil suit. The bar owner was so arrogant, he didn't even have liability insurance so now he's trying to sell his bar to settle the suit...

But yeah, carry on telling me about how awesome most bouncers are cuz from what I've seen of them on several continents, most can't hold down a decent paying job and they get off on physical violence.

Whoop ti fuking doo! The only difference I see is that citizens pay for police fuk ups!

There is much more video of cops getting off on beating people than bouncers, nice fukin try! NOT!
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Old September 25, 2017, 11:47   #33
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Whoop ti fuking doo! The only difference I see is that citizens pay for police fuk ups!

There is much more video of cops getting off on beating people than bouncers, nice fukin try! NOT!
Well I worked clubs part time in College, a bit off and on since
Ran into some vicious fellow bouncers, thing is those pricks are counterproductive to Club profit.

I mostly worked hardcore strip joints
we maybe had to show a few folks a night the door over stupidity, maybe once or twice a week there was a resistant asshat
it's mostly escalation of force. For example you bite and think you are taking a chunk of my flesh, well expect to be badly hurt. I'm not proud or ashamed, I'm indifferent to your damage.

Cops generally loathed us as they expected special indulgencies
Groping the girls, Soliciting, even carrying firearms off duty in the Clubs
Yeah, no issues with titty bars being gun free zones and mostly due to drunked up off duty cops.
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Old September 25, 2017, 17:29   #34
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Well I worked clubs part time in College, a bit off and on since
Ran into some vicious fellow bouncers, thing is those pricks are counterproductive to Club profit.

I mostly worked hardcore strip joints
we maybe had to show a few folks a night the door over stupidity, maybe once or twice a week there was a resistant asshat
it's mostly escalation of force. For example you bite and think you are taking a chunk of my flesh, well expect to be badly hurt. I'm not proud or ashamed, I'm indifferent to your damage.

Cops generally loathed us as they expected special indulgencies
Groping the girls, Soliciting, even carrying firearms off duty in the Clubs
Yeah, no issues with titty bars being gun free zones and mostly due to drunked up off duty cops.
Yes, When i worked as a Bouncer no firearms inside the club. And some Cops though no firearms did not apply to them. Its a simple fact firearms and drinking do not mix together. Any guy that goes in a titty bar thinking he will find some young love will run out of money before he will get some. Also guys that hang out weekly in titty bars have mental problem. Working as a bouncer wake you up to the DARK side of life. The trick of a good bouncer is to your head instead of your fist. Never drink on the JOB keep your mind sober.
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Old September 25, 2017, 22:31   #35
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Yes, When i worked as a Bouncer no firearms inside the club. And some Cops though no firearms did not apply to them. Its a simple fact firearms and drinking do not mix together. Any guy that goes in a titty bar thinking he will find some young love will run out of money before he will get some. Also guys that hang out weekly in titty bars have mental problem. Working as a bouncer wake you up to the DARK side of life. The trick of a good bouncer is to your head instead of your fist. Never drink on the JOB keep your mind sober.
thing was it was easy to CCW, cops brandished shit in defiance of our rules and State law. Some guys told removed the piece from the club, others became combative.

just a simple truth.

I don't like firearms around drinkers, I ask you to eliminate the issue and you refuse. Bad News
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Old September 26, 2017, 00:45   #36
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That kid was a mean SOB. It didn't look that was his first rodeo either. Wonder how many honest citizens he's assaulted? The officer did what he had to do.
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Old September 26, 2017, 07:55   #37
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Now they are reporting the perp was a Navy vet with a history of mental illness, drug problem, and parolee:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:13   #38
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sheesh, that's nearly as bad of a stereotype as some that are applied to Police Gman.

Just sayn' most of the Clubs I either worked in or frequented staff never went looking for conflict with the customers. In fact someone had to do something seriously stupid to get shown the door like grope a waitress.
Folks that were just too drunk had a cab called for them, no they were not allowed to drive.

Some clubs staff will drive a drunk home even.

Yeah sure there are assholes who do club security
just as there are worthless dicks with badges that beat folks down
the difference is the badge usually gets away with it

Don't get me started on off duty LE drunked up at a titty bar
I clearly stated in MY experience and that's based on getting shit faced in titty bars, strip joints and night clubs over the last 30 years on 3 continents. I've been denied entry, tossed out of and had good times by and with bouncers all over the world but it doesn't alter my experience or perception that they aren't the most stellar people in the world.

YMMV but as you're a self confessed burglar and enjoyed seeing a man lose his family and commit suicide as well as imported and distributed child porn, anything you have to say means absolutely jack shit to me. Or you're just a lying sack of shit who should have auditioned for the role of "The Most Interesting Man In The World" for Dos Equis...
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Old September 26, 2017, 12:23   #39
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I clearly stated in MY experience and that's based on getting shit faced in titty bars, strip joints and night clubs over the last 30 years on 3 continents. I've been denied entry, tossed out of and had good times by and with bouncers all over the world but it doesn't alter my experience or perception that they aren't the most stellar people in the world.

YMMV but as you're a self confessed burglar and enjoyed seeing a man lose his family and commit suicide as well as imported and distributed child porn, anything you have to say means absolutely jack shit to me. Or you're just a lying sack of shit who should have auditioned for the role of "The Most Interesting Man In The World" for Dos Equis...
Ha...well that particular cop had a history of planting evidence, even rape
trust me he was no great loss to society and his department even knowing his history seemed not inclined to kick him off the force.
It was also some thirty years ago

Yeah folks get denied entry...usually because they are already drunked up. Same reason you get shown the door when you pass out at a table.
Not arguing one bit that Club security can be less than stellar individuals. Then again I have known plenty of LEOs who worked that job part time too
So now what ?

It's similar to the stereotypes of security guards being sorta wannabe coppers
thing is plenty of security guards are actually off duty LE

It's real common for LE to take these kind of jobs during an investigation or lay off. More often than not the investigation goes in favor of the Officer, situations like shootings.

I will add that there are enormous differences between who gets hired at upscale urban clubs and straight dive joints. Titty dives often have the nasty idiots you paint as dead common, heck Ex Cons, Outlaw Bikers, etc.
Upscale clubs do routine background checks, etc.

Years back a buddy's dad retired from Federal LE and moved to Vegas. Guy took a full time job running security at some upscale strip club there.
Casinos employ retired or off duty LE pretty heavily.
Seen this all my life, I don't find one issue with it either.

I just find humor that you single out bouncers as basically scum when quite a number of them happen to be off duty or retired LEOs
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Old September 26, 2017, 14:32   #40
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Was that a 9mm I'm guessing? Whatever it was, it shows how ineffective a handgun can be against someone stoned on drugs.
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Old September 26, 2017, 15:22   #41
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Was that a 9mm I'm guessing? Whatever it was, it shows how ineffective a handgun can be against someone stoned on drugs.
or someone fueled with adrenline...

Cole Younger was shot eleven times at Northfield and still rode away
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Old September 26, 2017, 15:56   #42
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I agree with carrying less than lethal tools to a certain degree. I recommend pepper gel because it is simple to carry, relatively easy to deploy, often results in rapid incapacitation, is inexpensive, may have a dye added to it to aid in identification of the assailant and most importantly, is eminently defensible in court. Pepper spray sucks balls with cross contamination issues, wind drift and indiscriminate application being just a few reasons I hate the stuff.

Carrying an expandable baton and/or Taser may color a jury's thought process in categorizing you as a wanna be copper who was out looking for trouble, especially the baton. What your subjective intent may have been is neither here nor there when the jury decides your fate. In addition, Taser's often fail (ex the video being discussed here) and the baton requires extensive training to be effective. Hell, most cops can't effectively wield a baton, fixed or expandable so I have little hope for a citizen...

I sure as hell NEVER advise my students to carry more than one type of less lethal; that will never play well in front of a jury, an investigator or a DA. I also advise my students to get some basic physical self defense training too. Just a few simple moves to allow you to escape or defend yourself from an attack is all that is needed.

Of course, the thing I stress most in my classes is awareness and threat identification. Teaching people to shoot is easy; teaching them to get their heads out of their phones and pay attention to their surroundings is the hard part. The Cooper color code and the book "The Gift of Fear" are an integral part of my classes. Even though Gavin DeBecker is a liberal douche canoe, his book contains some really good information. If only he could have brought himself to admit firearms are the ultimate in self defense tools...

Two to the body and one to the head sounds good but in reality, people continue to shoot at the center mass unless extensively trained to do otherwise. I use Action Targets balloon reactive targets to privately train advanced students but my agency previously refused to buy them as they were "too expensive." A good friend was just promoted into the training supervisor position and is now going to buy some because the training value is massive. Take a look at the video and see how often cops keep shooting center mass, missing the damn balloon and NEVER transition to head shots...

This a far better system than we were trained on back in the day.
We used a simple stick man made of wood with red balloons for head and blue for heart on 12 inch strings, with 2 yellow ones for hands on 2 foot strings.
Sometimes, they would add a couple attached where lungs were located.

Add a little wind, damn things were hard to hit, and we even used this system with rifles out to fifty yards or so.

Ain't easy to hit a small moving target, takes a shit load of practice.

Stay safe.
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Old September 26, 2017, 21:28   #43
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Sorry about the music on the vid...The poster thought it was a shotgun...looks like a 37mm at close range can get the job down without the fatality as well:

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Old September 26, 2017, 23:21   #44
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Sorry about the music on the vid...The poster thought it was a shotgun...looks like a 37mm at close range can get the job down without the fatality as well:
Sh1t, if only the police could do that here in the U.S.
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Old September 28, 2017, 10:50   #45
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Anybody who has shot regularly, in any action type of shooting game, like CAS, 3 gun, or IDPA, has missed at very close range.

Tactical movement games, are the only method of training for the real thing.

That cop was moved upon, retreated and retreated some more, was attacked physically and went down fighting; and only barely survived being overpowered or killed.

No jury would convict him, except OJ's jury.

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Old September 28, 2017, 22:22   #46
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It was a good shoot. What brought the LEO into contact with the deceased in the first place?
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Old September 29, 2017, 17:42   #47
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One of the top 10 beatings I have taken was from a guy about that size all cranked up. I hover around 100kgs depending on how lazy I have been and he picked me up several times and banged me against a wall, with one arm, he had a guy about the same size as me (but 25yrs older) attached to his other arm and he alternated hitting the walls with us. If CNS stimulants are involved there is a really good chance that the scrawney little EMO kid can beat the snot out of a much larger person and then go on their merry way.
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Old September 29, 2017, 22:36   #48
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One of the top 10 beatings I have taken was from a guy about that size all cranked up. I hover around 100kgs depending on how lazy I have been and he picked me up several times and banged me against a wall, with one arm, he had a guy about the same size as me (but 25yrs older) attached to his other arm and he alternated hitting the walls with us. If CNS stimulants are involved there is a really good chance that the scrawney little EMO kid can beat the snot out of a much larger person and then go on their merry way.
Yes very true
if you allow them inside your swing, you can be toast
lil asshats can take down a much larger Man, been there, had that happen
we best them once we both are on the ground, nothing pretty.

A larger Man has leverage against manlets
think dislocation even bone breakage

add in certain drugs ?
or groups...
no go...unless you are armed or look and smell like a complete bum.
preferably both.
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Old September 30, 2017, 09:20   #49
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the fist foot way is the answer

https://youtu.be/ZgYyuoP2a5s
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Old September 30, 2017, 21:45   #50
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The little tough guys....you gotta windmill, it's the only way to survive , WINDMILL!
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