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Old July 14, 2018, 19:43   #1
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When did Colt grind off bayo lugs

When did Colt start grinding off bayo lugs on AR-15s? I thought they started this in the early 1990s before the 94 AWB. Are pre 94s considered pre bans or some blue label green label guns?
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Old July 14, 2018, 21:14   #2
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I bought a new match H-bar in 1990 or 91 and the lug was gone by then.
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Old July 14, 2018, 22:16   #3
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Sometime in the mid to late 80s IIRC. They also had a auto sear block which consisted of simply not milliing out the area behind the trigger group. And they made the holes for the trigger and hammer pins bigger so you could not use M16 parts. The standard M16 pins were too small for the holes. The front pivot pin was larger also and was basically a double head screw pin. It had screwdriver slots on both sides. But I think this was done even eariler than the 1980s possibly when they released the gun to the public but I am not sure. We called them transistion guns. There was talk of an assault rifle ban even then.
My circa 1985 preban SP1 Hbar has the larger pivot pin but it also has a bayonet lug, no sear block and the small holes for the hammer and trigger.
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Old July 15, 2018, 09:14   #4
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Originally Posted by gunnut1 View Post
Sometime in the mid to late 80s IIRC. They also had a auto sear block which consisted of simply not milliing out the area behind the trigger group. And they made the holes for the trigger and hammer pins bigger so you could not use M16 parts. The standard M16 pins were too small for the holes. The front pivot pin was larger also and was basically a double head screw pin. It had screwdriver slots on both sides. But I think this was done even eariler than the 1980s possibly when they released the gun to the public but I am not sure. We called them transistion guns. There was talk of an assault rifle ban even then.
My circa 1985 preban SP1 Hbar has the larger pivot pin but it also has a bayonet lug, no sear block and the small holes for the hammer and trigger.
The first auto sear blocks were simply a block inserted into the receiver, held in place with a hardened pin. The receivers were machined like all other receivers. It wasn't until later that they left them un-machined.
I machined out a few of them back in the day. The hardened pin wasn't as hard as they portrayed them to be. I guess it would stop most guys with just garage tools.
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Old July 15, 2018, 09:26   #5
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Originally Posted by gunnut1 View Post
Sometime in the mid to late 80s IIRC. They also had a auto sear block which consisted of simply not milliing out the area behind the trigger group. And they made the holes for the trigger and hammer pins bigger so you could not use M16 parts. The standard M16 pins were too small for the holes. The front pivot pin was larger also and was basically a double head screw pin. It had screwdriver slots on both sides. But I think this was done even eariler than the 1980s possibly when they released the gun to the public but I am not sure. We called them transistion guns. There was talk of an assault rifle ban even then.
My circa 1985 preban SP1 Hbar has the larger pivot pin but it also has a bayonet lug, no sear block and the small holes for the hammer and trigger.
If your SP1 has the threaded pin with retention screw can machine just a fuzz off end of pin then adjust tension on upper and lower receiver fit. (over tightening will cause cracking) Then the bonus of small pin trigger holes and a properly fit Accuwedge you can dial in a perfect upper to lower fit so there is no wobble or play. Those were the desired configuration before collectors value exceeded their value for Service Rifle opposed to other well made receiver groups. I HBAR configuration you have one of the Pony rifles on my list that has thus far eluded me.

I believe that shaving the bayonet lug off was done mid year 1989 and all 1990 year civilian models through the ban were shaved. Have read where all were shaved '89 other references say it was '90 and some that I have found to be usually accurate say it was started in '89 but how far into production year not exactly known if was toward beginning, mid year or end. According to model number and other features and serial I would be leary in nailing it down in an absolute calendar year but would judge each rifle based on features and serial number to decide if had an '89 or '90 and later.

Did a Google search (always check my print books as well and trust them more than net myths) and found this site which mentions a Colt AR15A2 Hbar varients that shipped from 1986 till 1989 and seems to describe gunnut's rifle as a near unicorn model.

https://www.cybershooters.org/?page_id=538

Found other sites that claimed 1989 and some that said not till reintroduction after passing of the assault weapons ban so take your pick. I am going with mid year 1989 for majority of models as my personal official answer based on printed information but who can really be sure as always a chance of someone on assembly line pulling from wrong box or inventory sending a dot mil box to line during a civilian rifle run. Like mistakes at the U.S. Mint that create those small lots of coins that are worth significant money.
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Old July 15, 2018, 09:27   #6
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I guess it would stop most guys with just garage tools.
Unfortunately... in some cases, it didn't. There are some really nice rifles out there with some nasty butcher jobs that are not exposed until you shotgun the rifle. Be careful when buying a sear block era Colt.

Also, for long term investment, the removal of the block hurts value. If you are not concerned about resale value, regardless of how nicely the block was modified/removed.
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Old July 15, 2018, 09:45   #7
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post

Did a Google search (always check my print books as well and trust them more than net myths) and found this site which mentions a Colt AR15A2 Hbar varients that shipped from 1986 till 1989 and seems to describe gunnut's rifle as a near unicorn model.

https://www.cybershooters.org/?page_id=538
gunnut1's example is not a unicorn.

I'm not sure how you are interpreting your reading, but the bayonet lug was not shaved on the HBARS until the post SP1 rifles were introduced (a2 type lower, still retaining the oversize front take down pin)... and even the earliest examples of post SP1 HBAR rifles may have retained bayonet lugs.

Colt was notorious for exhausting previous inventories on parts before transitioning to the "updated" parts.

The issue that we see is that even printed publications seem to copy each other.
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Old July 15, 2018, 10:10   #8
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My hbar has a slickside lower, A2 upper, bayonet lug, double screw pivot pin ( replaced with a KNS pivot pun), small trigger and hammer pin holes and no sear block (but I think that the area where the auto seat would be would have to be wided).

I think it is a police trade in built in 1985.
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Old July 15, 2018, 10:14   #9
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Originally Posted by idsubgun View Post
The first auto sear blocks were simply a block inserted into the receiver, held in place with a hardened pin. The receivers were machined like all other receivers. It wasn'tiuntil later that they left them un-machined.
I machined out a few of them back in the day. The hardened pin wasn't as hard as they portrayed them to be. I guess it would stop most guys with just garage tools.
What's sad is many of us did things that made practical sense but took the originality out of low production number varients. Several years ago scored a box with over a dozen original Colt 2 position CAR stocks. Had a couple friends who needed stocks for builds but wanted more adjustability and set up a jig and machined them all out to four position buffer tubes and now have four left in builds and know the value of an original Colt two position stock is significantly more than a four position. Almost pulled them, welded up the holes I milled and had refinished but would be a lot of labor and still a modified original.

Took a convertable Hemi Plymouth Cuda to crusher. Still good friends with guy worked as team in high school scrapping cars and selling firewood. Anytime we saw an old Chrysler or several behind a house would stop and see if owners wanted them hauled off as scrapped for more than average GM or Ford due to weight. He still drives a truck with a 440 we pulled from a Dodge Challenger with six pack, slapstick tranny and shaker hood before scrapping rest of car including the six pack manifold and carburetors we threw in trunk with the other stuff to make up for lost weight of engine. Bet we took over five million dollars current value of cars to crusher in late 70's and early 80's.

Hindsight is a b!tch looking back on stuff have done to make a few dollars one year that could have made real money if played same hand a little differently. Bought 2,000 shares of a tech stock at $2 per share that was over $250 per share when left for Peru on a six week mountaineering trip. Got back home to discover another company did hostile takeover buying enough of their stock, short selling, driving price down to point was devalued enough to buy controlling interest. Absored them and reissued their stock to people like me at value of five cents per share. Rode a $4k investment to a half million bucks and rather than cash out left for vacation without setting a sell number losing entire investment. Can dig in vaults and pull countless vintage Colt 1911's (pre WW2) that used to build race guns or custom carries and other abortions of the times. Have chopped barrels on Pythons and other now unreplaceable guns and see all sorts of guns come through LGS or Gunbroker someone did similar back in 70's and 80's.

Wonder what percentage of classic SP1's have suffered the fate of parts swappers, barrel choppers and the like.
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Old July 15, 2018, 10:42   #10
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Originally Posted by lockjaw View Post
gunnut1's example is not a unicorn.

I'm not sure how you are interpreting your reading, but the bayonet lug was not shaved on the HBARS until the post SP1 rifles were introduced (a2 type lower, still retaining the oversize front take down pin)... and even the earliest examples of post SP1 HBAR rifles may have retained bayonet lugs.

Colt was notorious for exhausting previous inventories on parts before transitioning to the "updated" parts.

The issue that we see is that even printed publications seem to copy each other.
What is a unicorn model?
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Old July 15, 2018, 10:57   #11
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Just checked the serial number against the list in Bighammer and it tells me that the gun was built in 1978, not 1985.
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Old July 15, 2018, 11:25   #12
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post

...

Wonder what percentage of classic SP1's have suffered the fate of parts swappers, barrel choppers and the like.
I know that mine (purchased NIB in 1974) now sports an A2 handguard and an A2 buttstock, both of which I much prefer over the originals. It also has a KNS push-button front pivot pin.

It is mine, after all... (but, not being completely stupid, I kept the original parts to swap back on if I decide to... Just in case, you know... )

Forrest
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Old July 15, 2018, 11:37   #13
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What is a unicorn model?
Rare to extremely rare. Like when a few rifles get through line and Q.C. with improper parts mix or manufacturer accidentally let's a couple of prototypes out in the wild. Same can be said of say a 99% 1886 Winchester in 50-100 or 50-110. Some Randall 1911's they only made one gun as released and some in series of as small as four units. They even sold prototypes with T before the serial number and a grand total of two left hand 38 Supers. Five were sold to Australian police for evaluation, accepted, proof marks stamped and when discovered Randall was in bankruptcy they sent them back to factory which promptly sold them on open market. I bought a significant number of Randalls while they were in business and while able to find after closed their doors. Have one factory set keep in safety deposit box as don't trust myself to not play with them if were at home as may be worth what I paid for my house if listed them on gunbroker. There are a group of 1911 freaks that will pay big for the rarer Randalls and are called investment grade firearms rather than collectable. Unicorn is a term used on all sorts of rare items from guns to cars like a survivor Dodge Daytona Charger.
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Old July 15, 2018, 11:56   #14
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OK, that makes sense. Mine in no where clost to being rare.
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Old July 15, 2018, 16:03   #15
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Ok so this is what I've learned. Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong. The 89 import ban did not affect Colt US made AR-15s. Colt decided to make the rifle "less evil" by removing the bayo lug and inserting a auto sear block. This was done sometime around 89-90. They produced rifles like this until the 94 AWB became law. After 94 they had to produce rifles without certain evil features until 2004 when the law sunset.
So there is no such thing as a preban AR-15. They were never banned just modified by Colt (89-90) or for compliance to the 94 AWB.
Also found by searching AR-15.com (yeah I know) prior to 1990 the rifles were shipped with a green shipping label on the box. 90 to 94 shipped with a blue label.
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Old July 15, 2018, 16:58   #16
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Ok so this is what I've learned. Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong. The 89 import ban did not affect Colt US made AR-15s. Colt decided to make the rifle "less evil" by removing the bayo lug and inserting a auto sear block. This was done sometime around 89-90. They produced rifles like this until the 94 AWB became law. After 94 they had to produce rifles without certain evil features until 2004 when the law sunset.
So there is no such thing as a preban AR-15. They were never banned just modified by Colt (89-90) or for compliance to the 94 AWB.
Also found by searching AR-15.com (yeah I know) prior to 1990 the rifles were shipped with a green shipping label on the box. 90 to 94 shipped with a blue label.
The term "PREBAN" can mean several different things. A time period before 1994 assault rilfe ban took place. This is the way a lot of us use it. The configuration of a rifle that was built before the ban took place.

And I suppose that if you really want to get down to it, the AR15 has always been in a sort of a assault rifle ban configuration. Before the ATF would allow them to be releasned to the public in the 60s in a semi auto configuration the bolt carrier, bolt, disconnect, safety, both receivers and trigger had to be modified to disallow the use of M16 parts.

So I tell people that I have a preban Colt Hbar meaning that it has all of the evil parts and was built before the 1994 ban.
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Old July 15, 2018, 19:37   #17
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I have a Colt AR15A2 HBAR Sporter I bought new in 1988ish.
(I have the receipt around somewhere, but haven't looked at it to get rhe exact date of the sale)


It has the bayonet lug.


I distinctly remember that the day after I bought this rifle, Colt announced they were ending sales of this rifle to civilians.


If memory serves, a few years later Colt came out with another version minus the bayonet lug (and maybe other changes)
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Old July 15, 2018, 20:47   #18
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I have a Colt AR15A2 HBAR Sporter I bought new in 1988ish.
(I have the receipt around somewhere, but haven't looked at it to get rhe exact date of the sale)


It has the bayonet lug.


I distinctly remember that the day after I bought this rifle, Colt announced they were ending sales of this rifle to civilians.


If memory serves, a few years later Colt came out with another version minus the bayonet lug (and maybe other changes)
Yes, I have one minus the lug
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Old July 17, 2018, 13:45   #19
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I bought a new match H-bar in 1990 or 91 and the lug was gone by then.
My 91' R6530 LW Carbine was missing it's lug also .
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