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Old October 13, 2017, 07:14   #51
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According to YH, we're the most powerful nation on the Earth and can shoot down anything fired at us. Why you guys so scared?
Not scared, just a bit resigned to it. As for 'the most powerful nation on earth', i'm a bit more sanguine than that and my take on YH is he is too. We'd just rather burn the cancer off the skin before we need to amputate the limb.
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:55   #52
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Not scared, just a bit resigned to it. As for 'the most powerful nation on earth', i'm a bit more sanguine than that and my take on YH is he is too. We'd just rather burn the cancer off the skin before we need to amputate the limb.
Funny, you think it is that simple an outcome.

Like most of you thought, the 1st Korean war would have got China involved, end up a multi year slug fest, stalemate back to the border and 75 years of US taxpayer welfare propping up SK.

Wars have a way of not working out as planned, and we have more proof of that in MENA.



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Old October 13, 2017, 12:03   #53
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Originally Posted by bubbagump View Post
Not scared, just a bit resigned to it. As for 'the most powerful nation on earth', i'm a bit more sanguine than that and my take on YH is he is too. We'd just rather burn the cancer off the skin before we need to amputate the limb.
Yep!

Appeasement has been proven not to work, time and again.

Trump is now giving a history lesson on Iran, I'm sure that many will see this as more American saber rattling, etc, looking to go to war with Iran, bla, bla, bla.
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:15   #54
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Yep!

Appeasement has been proven not to work, time and again.

Trump is now giving a history lesson on Iran, I'm sure that many will see this as more American saber rattling, etc, looking to go to war with Iran, bla, bla, bla.
Trump is giving a history lesson on Iran? Will he cover the period from 1941-1980?

It would be F^&NG AWESOME to have a president understand and explain the events over there, and present the facts. It will no doubt lead to a reconciliation between our two countries.
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:24   #55
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Trump is giving a history lesson on Iran? Will he cover the period from 1941-1980?

It would be F^&NG AWESOME to have a president understand and explain the events over there, and present the facts. It will no doubt lead to a reconciliation between our two countries.
Do ya really think that anything could lead to a reconciliation between our two countries?????
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:29   #56
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Yes, I certainly do. I believe that we have zero interest in promoting that, however. The money to be made from getting along with Iran was made from the 50 through about 1978.

The oil companies made hay when the sun was shining, now:

The MIC benefits from the constant threat of war.

Our leaders have lied so many times, for so long, they won't own up to anything for fear of losing face.

It's easier to keep the Iranians as a threat, and label the leader (pick one) as "crazy".
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:54   #57
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Yes, I certainly do. I believe that we have zero interest in promoting that, however. The money to be made from getting along with Iran was made from the 50 through about 1978.

The oil companies made hay when the sun was shining, now:

The MIC benefits from the constant threat of war.

Our leaders have lied so many times, for so long, they won't own up to anything for fear of losing face.

It's easier to keep the Iranians as a threat, and label the leader (pick one) as "crazy".
Past mistakes I'm sure were made, that is what countries do, they make mistakes, or, past actions are viewed by future generations as mistakes when looking back with 20/20 hindsight.

The IRAN of today, is a threat to many countries, it is spending money to foster terror attacks, develops shit to kill innocents, and then gives it to people who will kill innocents without hesitation.

I spent a month in Iran in the mid 70's, very nice folks, pretty ladies, friendly, peaceful, no death to America, not exporting terror nor making and sending 200,000 rockets around the area to rain down on innocents, and sure as hell not funding people to kill others based upon religion.

The people there took to the streets and were begging for help to get rid of the crazies and our government at that time left them to be slaughtered, gone missing, locked away in prisons never to be seen again, which I SEE as a huge ass mistake of the past.

If someone walks up to you and yours with a gun in hand, to do you and yours harm, do you stop and decry, blatter on and on, on how that person got the way they are TODAY, or do you put them down and insure you and yours safety?
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:02   #58
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Past mistakes I'm sure were made, that is what countries do, they make mistakes, or, past actions are viewed by future generations as mistakes when looking back with 20/20 hindsight.

The IRAN of today, is a threat to many countries, it is spending money to foster terror attacks, develops shit to kill innocents, and then gives it to people who will kill innocents without hesitation.

I spent a month in Iran in the mid 70's, very nice folks, pretty ladies, friendly, peaceful, no death to America, not exporting terror nor making and sending 200,000 rockets around the area to rain down on innocents, and sure as hell not funding people to kill others based upon religion.

The people there took to the streets and were begging for help to get rid of the crazies and our government at that time left them to be slaughtered, gone missing, locked away in prisons never to be seen again, which I SEE as a huge ass mistake of the past.

If someone walks up to you and yours with a gun in hand, to do you and yours harm, do you stop and decry, blatter on and on, on how that person got the way they are TODAY, or do you put them down and insure you and yours safety?


Well, that's not really an accurate comparison, but yeah, they get lead poisoning.

What if you were dealing with a visitor of your neighbors? Some guy that's loud, and powerful. Maybe encouraged your neighbor to attack you in the past, even gave him weapons to carry out the attack?
How would you deal with that guy in the future? Past actions being the best predictor and all that...
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:09   #59
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Do ya really think that anything could lead to a reconciliation between our two countries?????
Are you talking about the bitter war we had with Great Britain in the latter years of the 18th century or the minor skirmish we had in 1812?
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:13   #60
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Trump is giving a history lesson on Iran? Will he cover the period from 1941-1980?

It would be F^&NG AWESOME to have a president understand and explain the events over there, and present the facts. It will no doubt lead to a reconciliation between our two countries.
The US has a very selective view of history ... everything else goes down a bottomless memory hole. Trump has no recollection of 1941-1980.
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:25   #61
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[/B]

Well, that's not really an accurate comparison, but yeah, they get lead poisoning.

What if you were dealing with a visitor of your neighbors? Some guy that's loud, and powerful. Maybe encouraged your neighbor to attack you in the past, even gave him weapons to carry out the attack?
How would you deal with that guy in the future? Past actions being the best predictor and all that...
I'd be wary of that person, based upon their past actions and then deal with whatever he was up to today.

This is the problem many people have today, and many here, every four years or sometimes 8 years, we change out our government fully, and new people are installed.
Granted, sometimes, one group looks and acts just like the others that came before them, but often as well, they are wholly different people with different ways of behaving.

Roosevelt, Truman, Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, ok, this one is about dead, Reagan, are ALL dead and their policies and actions while in office died with them.

What all of these men did or did not do can't be fairly judged by the light of today, in that none of them set out to cause problems 50 or 70 years later for all of us.
They were doing what they thought was best for their own time frames.

Once upon a time, Vietnam was at war with us, and we with them.
Same for Japan, Germany, etc.
Today, my dentist is from Vietnam, his daddy, about my age, fought on the other side, and is now retired, semi, working the counter at my dentist office, answering the phone, and we speak often about those times and have a smoke together when his boys are not looking.

He learned, as I did, holding onto the past simply kills any chances for a better future. Today, he is a proud grand pa, an American citizen, father to several American citizens, none of which will ever even see a rice paddy nor an RPG.

The past can never be undone, it happened, its why its referred to as history.
You can learn from the past, but one also needs to deal with the present always.

Why someone is a murderous shithead, is for academics to discuss and debate, it is up to us today to deal with them for their behavior today.
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:33   #62
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Are you talking about the bitter war we had with Great Britain in the latter years of the 18th century or the minor skirmish we had in 1812?
No!

The discussion between Ted and I is over Iran.

Iran today, is far from Britain of the 18th,19th and 20th century, not so much different today, sadly, with the influx/invasion of people acting and behaving much as the crazies in Iran are doing today.
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:49   #63
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If our politicians don't know (or won't admit) and our disengaged, somnolent population have no clue as to what we have done to so piss off so many people ... nothing will change for the better but will get only worse. We are happily riding a slow tugboat to hell and when we get there most will say, 'How did this happen?'
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Old October 13, 2017, 13:55   #64
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If our politicians don't know (or won't admit) and our disengaged, somnolent population have no clue as to what we have done to so piss off so many people ... nothing will change for the better but will get only worse. We are happily riding a slow tugboat to hell and when we get there most will say, 'How did this happen?'
I can understand your position, but having traveled and lived outside the country for long periods of time, like 17 total, ugh, the regular people in all these countries do not hate the USA, far from it.

Most Americans never leave our country and only see the politicians, mullahs, crazies leading several of these countries on the TV and internet screaming death to America.

Ask the people in Iran today, would they prefer to live in a country like the USA, or in their Iran of today, most would prefer the USA, but saying that inside Iran today, would get your head cut off.
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Old October 13, 2017, 14:00   #65
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Originally Posted by D P Six View Post
If our politicians don't know (or won't admit) and our disengaged, somnolent population have no clue as to what we have done to so piss off so many people ... nothing will change for the better but will get only worse. We are happily riding a slow tugboat to hell and when we get there most will say, 'How did this happen?'
As true as this is there is nothing new here.

To the earlier question of how would I deal with a visitor to my neighbor, well I would probably ignore him until he reached the breaking point. If and when he did I'd probably tear his head off, shit down his neck, sell his women and children into slavery and use the proceeds to buy concert tickets and a fine bottle of scotch whisky.

Yellowhand is right, history is all well and good but dealing with what is right in front of you is more important. In fact ya have to really question the sanity of those who ignore the things they do have some control over, like for example the present, in favor of things they have not control over. Like for example the past.
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Old October 13, 2017, 14:16   #66
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If our politicians don't know (or won't admit) and our disengaged, somnolent population have no clue as to what we have done to so piss off so many people ... nothing will change for the better but will get only worse. We are happily riding a slow tugboat to hell and when we get there most will say, 'How did this happen?'
I really tire of this "it's all our fault" crap. We don't seem to meddle until we are invited in but on the same line it's like people think nobody but us meddles, every country meddles. We are just the best at it. It's the way the world turns, become involved or get run over
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Old October 13, 2017, 14:18   #67
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If our politicians don't know (or won't admit) and our disengaged, somnolent population have no clue as to what we have done to so piss off so many people ... nothing will change for the better but will get only worse. We are happily riding a slow tugboat to hell and when we get there most will say, 'How did this happen?'
I answered your questions, let me ask one.

Just why should a leader of any country today, like America or say Japan, admit to and apologize for shit that occurred long before they were even born by prior leaders of their countries?

What would that accomplish?

It would be used by our enemies of today, to bash our heads in today, won't change the past at all, and would or could cause people, innocents to die, today.
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Old October 13, 2017, 16:26   #68
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I answered your questions, let me ask one.

Just why should a leader of any country today, like America or say Japan, admit to and apologize for shit that occurred long before they were even born by prior leaders of their countries? ...
I don't believe I said anything about apologizing but rather I believe there is a cause and effect that results from the things we do. Many want to go to war with Russia because they messed with out elections which by all accounts is total bullshit. But our CIA did manipulate the Iranian elections which resulted in the rule of Shah Pahlavi and his Savak. Wonder why the Iranians dislike us? How about destroying Iraq because of WMD's which for some reason couldn't be found. What about Libya, a somewhat progressive nation for the ME .... now is a non state. Even the atom bombing of Japan many feel was a demonstration to the Soviet Union rather that a necessity of war. Doesn't exactly give us the high moral ground. In any case, don't learn from your mistakes ... keep making those same mistakes. I think they call that insanity.
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Old October 13, 2017, 18:14   #69
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I don't believe I said anything about apologizing but rather I believe there is a cause and effect that results from the things we do.
Many want to go to war with Russia because they messed with out elections which by all accounts is total bullshit.
But our CIA did manipulate the Iranian elections which resulted in the rule of Shah Pahlavi and his Savak. Wonder why the Iranians dislike us?
How about destroying Iraq because of WMD's which for some reason couldn't be found.
What about Libya, a somewhat progressive nation for the ME .... now is a non state.
Even the atom bombing of Japan many feel was a demonstration to the Soviet Union rather that a necessity of war.
Doesn't exactly give us the high moral ground.
In any case, don't learn from your mistakes ... keep making those same mistakes. I think they call that insanity.
No, I did.

To me and many others, the cause and effect thingy you mentioned is the same as apologizing, or nearly the same thing, as in, changing current actions based upon what some folks see as improper actions on out part in the past.

Today is today, what went on in the past, we, like all that came before us, can't do anything about, as in, we play the cards we got, not the ones we wish we had.

Its like this, the first time I went to war, I went to war in a T-shirt, the last time, felt like Robo cop!
Was it wrong to send me to war in a T-shirt, nope, its what we had at that time.
We would not do it today to our troops, but the past is what it is, just the past and the way things were done, WAY back then.

You did not answer my question, but I'll still answer and comment on one of yours above, there was a lot there.

Japan and the two bombs.
Those two bombs were dropped for one main reason only, 300,000 dead American soldiers and another 2,000,000 estimated wounded had we had to invade the Jap home islands.
A secondary reason, it is estimated those two bombs saved about 12 to 14,000,000 Japs that would have been killed by our full scale invasion of the Jap home islands.
A wounded account for the Japs escapes me at the moment, but figure about 5 to 1, five wounded and 1 dead.

The military are experts at figuring out our and our enemies dead and wounded numbers, it is a requirement for providing medical care to our wounded, and returning our dead back to their families.

Btw. WE needed this data on the enemy and civilians members of our enemy, because we always provide medical care to our enemy, captives, and non combative's, unlike most of the other countries you mention that simply torture and then kill our folks.

And, I did not learn this above from the internet.

And once again, having met and still being contact with many of my Iranian friends, the Iranian people do not hate nor dislike us, they, many or most, want to be us!

Is our country all Trump supporters, hell no, at least half hate his ass, so why do people, when they like to say, Iranians hate the USA, when bashing the USA, do that?

Iran's current leaders hate us, hell they even hate 50% or better of other muzzies,

The only country where everyone seems to wish to relocate, is the good old'e USA, wonder why????
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Old October 13, 2017, 19:43   #70
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Clearly we are talking pass each other on this matter. While we disagree, I appreciate your opinion as differences make for interesting conversation.
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Old October 13, 2017, 19:59   #71
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It's interesting, just like man caused global warming America is always guilty. No other country has done anything to deserve the attention they got from us, we are guilty and it's a settled science. I think it's the lefts creation of victims, we are powerful so everyone else is a victim. Doesn't matter that Japan murdered people in an unjust declaration of war and had their troops fight to the death, the cynical says we nuked them to show the Russians we have the bomb.

Oddly enough the Ruskies had it shortly after because their spies got it for them. No way we nuked Japan just to save American lives
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Old October 13, 2017, 22:01   #72
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I really tire of this "it's all our fault" crap. We don't seem to meddle until we are invited in but on the same line it's like people think nobody but us meddles, every country meddles. We are just the best at it. It's the way the world turns, become involved or get run over
Oh? Just who invited us in to meddle in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc??

That best at it is why we are hated all over the world and why our embassies, planes, etc,, are targeted.

The world is turning ever closer to nuclear holocaust, hopefully you are just as cheerful if that becomes the outcome.




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Old October 14, 2017, 00:51   #73
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Clearly we are talking pass each other on this matter. While we disagree, I appreciate your opinion as differences make for interesting conversation.
Fair enough.
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