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Old April 13, 2016, 01:44   #1
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Thoughts on Global Warming.

**************** I'm parking this draft here until I review it tomorrow.. Then maybe I'll post it in politics. Or not,,,,, **************************

I've been following this topic on a scholarly level for about four decades now so I have an opinion. I should write about it before I die lest all that work is for naught. I've written about it here a few times. I don't plan on dying soon but who knows?

This will be long so quit now if you don't have an open mind.

The progressive socialists have laid a nice trap for us conservative rational types and that is what I want to illustrate here.

Climate change is real. Global warming is real. In fact, it has been getting warmer for the last 14,000 years or so. We are currently in an Ice age that started about 2.6 million years ago. We are currently enjoying an interglacial period which normally occur during ice ages. This ice age will continue on for perhaps tens of millions of years into the future. If nothing dramatic happens, and history repeats itself, glaciers will again descend on Europe and North America.

So if you deny climate change, or global warming, you are wrong. When the progressive socialists claim that 98% of climate scientists believe that global warming is real, this is why most climate scientists believe as they do, and why that claim carries what little merit it deserves. But scientists don't necessarily believe that humans are causing it, or that we can or should do anything about it. Unless their source for funding or personal ideology demand that assertion.

The fact, if there is such a thing, that the earth hasn't warmed in the last 20 years is irrelevant. The temperature naturally varies in starts and fits. The temperature signal, or the graph of the earths temperature, is noisy. Whatever humans contribute to that signal is small and nearly impossible to deduce. That is the key to the argument against the progressive socialists.

And what about that fact? To measure the temperature of a glass of water is difficult. Sure, you can stick a thermometer in it and get a number. But a glass of water is a dynamic system. It is trading hot molecules of water for cold molecules in the atmosphere. It radiates heat and absorbs radiated heat from its surroundings. Within the glass, there are currents caused by the convection of cool and warm regions of water within it. A glass of water has more than one temperature and it changes constantly. If you reach out and touch the glass, you will raise its temperature enough that with the right instruments, I could measure the change. But I still couldn't tell you what the temperature of the glass of water is.

The fanatic climate scientists would have you believe they can measure the temperature of a planet. This is simply not true. So when you insist that the earth hasn't warmed in the last 20 years, I say bullshit. No one can possibly know.

There are ways to very accurately measure temperature - in a laboratory with carefully controlled conditions. And it is easier to detect change than make an absolute measurement. But when you are comparing data taken with different instruments over decades over an entire planet, not so much.

If there were a satellite orbiting at the L2 Lagrangian Point in space measuring the radiant heat given off by Earth for the last 300 years, that would help answer the question. The L2 point is on the opposite side of the earth from the sun, so it is perpetually in the earth's shadow. The James Web Telescope will orbit the sun at L2, in Earth's shadow. The average temperature of the Earth can be measured by the radiant heat it gives off. This radiant heat exchange is proportional to the 4th power of the absolute temperature of the Earth minus the 4th power of the absolute temperature of the sensor measuring the radiance. The James Web Telescope can see this radiation. That would do it. Call me in 300 years.

I wrote that bit to demonstrate how ridiculously hard it is to measure the temperature of a planet which you must do to tell if it is or isn't getting warmer. But we already know it is getting warmer at the surface or there would be mile thick glaciers right where I'm sitting. It is all a straw argument. I also wrote that as a primer to discussing green house effects, which will follow.

By the way, you need to be at the L2 point to do this because the sun is a trillion times more thermally radiant than the earth. You can't do it at the earths surface at night because daily and seasonal variations in temperature are a million times greater than the changes you are trying to measure (8 degrees C over 100 years compared to 20 degrees C in 12 hours).

I also need to mention models. Computer models. I'll get there.

Carbon Dioxide (CO2), the enemy of statist oligarchs and progressive socialists, is a green house gas. It is a weak one - much weaker than methane or water vapor. Humans are almost certainly increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Again, if you deny that, you are wrong. But what if CO2 is increasing? Before the industrial revolution, the Earth was suffering a nearly all time low in the concentration of CO2. Plants were basically on a starvation diet as they "breath" CO2. Plants are not complaining about us burning fossil fuels, the source of the CO2 we add to the atmosphere.

There are other sources, like volcanoes. One big volcano can put more CO2 into the atmosphere in a year than all human activity combined. But again, that is a straw argument in defense of human activity.

CO2 really is a green house gas, and increasing the amount in the atmosphere could increase the equilibrium temperature of the Earth. This is a solid scientific hypothesis. Denying this out of hand is foolish. The core of the Earth is about 10,000 degrees F, and the corona of the sun is also 10,000 degrees. We are sitting on the Earth's crust at about 50 degrees F. How is that possible? Why isn't the surface made out of lava?

The answer is because the earth, while dim, shines vast amounts of thermal energy into space. The rate is proportional to the 4th power temperature difference like before. And space is about 2.3 K, just a few degrees above absolute zero. We are at about 273 K. Heat radiates up from below, and upon us from the sun, while we shine into cold space everywhere else. A balance is reached and depends on the average temperature of the Earth. CO2 could change the balance by dimming the Earth's ability to radiate into space. That's the hypothesis. It is valid. So don't deny, pursue the real arguments.

The first real argument is "yes but how much can CO2 change the equilibrium temperature?" To answer this question, climate scientists use computer models. But predictive computer models are not tools of science, they are engineering tools. In science, you make a prediction based on your hypothesis, then take measurements of real events to support or disprove your hypothesis. The outcome of a computer model is not a real event, and can't support or disprove anything. That is the climate scientist's fatal flaw.

In engineering, you might create a predictive mathematical model to help suggest how to improve a design. Then you build and test the real thing, getting real data about a real event. If your model is good and your test method is sound, your results will match the model. Frequently they don't. In that case, you admit that you missed something in the model, or you didn't do the test you thought you were doing, and you go back and figure out was wrong. The model is a tool, a guide, and is useless without confirmation by experiment. Climate models will be confirmed in 50 to 100 years. Until then, they are engineering suggestions, not science.

Sometimes the model is wrong and the test is wrong, and just by dumb luck they agree. That pretty much sums up the theory of airfoils for 100 years. 98% of scientists agree that airfoils work because air traveling over the top of a wing must go farther, and therefore move faster, than air flowing over the bottom of the wing. Faster moving air must be at lower pressure than the slower moving air below, and hence lift is generated, says almost everyone. Except that is not how it works at all. You have all heard this explanation and it is still being taught today. Experimental evidence proves this model is false. Engineers are still working to improve the mathematical model for airfoils. Likewise, planetary climate modelers are working to improve theirs. In a hundred years, maybe they will get there. And a hundred years after that we'll have the data to confirm the models.

Climate guys are modeling chaotic systems. Airfoil guys will tell you that when their systems get chaotic (stall), all bets are off and you crash. The climate guys have it tough.

You might have read that no warming occurred recently, according to the climate fanatics, because the additional energy was stored in the oceans. What they are really saying is that their models were flawed because they failed to take this factor into account. There is nothing wrong with failing to account for things in models. You learn, you improve, and try again. Only in climate science do you blame that sneaky ocean for hiding your energy. Use this argument.

The second argument is that, assuming they are correct, and they could be, what of it? Can we do anything about it? If we stopped using all fossil fuels tomorrow, would the global temperature rise anyway? There is already 50% more CO2 in the atmosphere than there was 500 years ago. And 7 billion people are going to burn stuff. Our species will never be CO2 neutral.

It can be phrased like this: I accept the fact that if we don't reduce our carbon footprint, polar bears will be extinct in 20 years. So if we reduce our carbon footprint, how long will it be before polar bears are extinct? No one can answer this question scientifically and it leads to the next question.

Assuming there is some benefit to climate and therefore humans if we reduce our CO2 footprint, what are the costs for doing so? This is the real question. The driving force behind the whole church of climate change is a hatred of consumption, consumerism, capitalism, and ultimately over population. The oligarchs don't want the masses and their ghettos encroaching on their palatial estates. The progressive socialists don't like sharing the planet with others either. I don't blame them. But their solution is to reduce your standard of living. Make no mistake. Your standard of living, like everyone else on the planet. is dependent on fossil fuels.

The impact is nonlinear. By that I mean a small increase in fossil fuel consumption multiplies your standard of ling tremendously. 500 years ago a man with a few horses could plow his little field. Give a man a few gallons of fuel and today he can use a 300 hp engine to plow a kingdom. Give a man a few megawatts of electricity and he can mill as much grain as all the people on earth could 500 years ago. This why there are 7 billion humans on Earth today. And if you take those fuels away, the reverse is true.

Without those fuels, most of us will be in desperate poverty. If we destroy the environment, we will also be in desperate poverty. It looks to me like a race. One path has a certain, immediate result, because it demands a reduction in our standard of living. The other, continued consumption with a large carbon footprint, is a valid but unproven hypothesis of poverty in the future. Perhaps we will find another solution. In either case, the real problem is that our population has more than doubled in my lifetime. That is the "hockey stick" graph from which all others are but symptoms.
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Old April 13, 2016, 20:46   #2
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For those who do not understand science or scientific research, the only thing that needs to be understood in this case is AlGore and the powermad democommie party. If that isn't a big enough dead giveaway for a scam, I don't know what is. Just look at those who advocate for these kinds of ideas and you'll know they're crap. Good writeup, by the way.
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Old April 16, 2016, 02:59   #3
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Thank you.

I like to point out that the proposed solutions to global warming always involve giving control of the Earth's most critical resources and vast sums of tax dollars to those making the proposal.
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Old April 16, 2016, 07:30   #4
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You have been studying on this. Good for you. Couple of people here that I know have that habit of finding out how some things actually work. The internet makes it easier to find data. The challenge is determining if it is VALID data. That takes even more effort.

I liked the part about airfoils and a stall being a chaotic break in the theory. When I was flying small planes I became perhaps too interested in this 'edge' of the flight envelope. So when I was in a different airframe I'd get it up high and make it do that. Power on and power off stalls. Climbing and turning stalls. And the most thrilling, accelerated stalls.

Every aircraft is different. Some give you a lot of warning you're about at that point with the shakes and shudders of the structure. Some kept it to themselves until the wing just quit flying.

I'll never get the chance but I'd really like to do that again with high performance military iron. Just to see, you know?
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Old April 16, 2016, 08:21   #5
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the proposed solutions to global warming always involve giving control of the Earth's most critical resources and vast sums of tax dollars to those making the proposal.
FTW!
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Old April 16, 2016, 10:46   #6
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Global cooling would concern me more than warming. Actually how about we just keep things the way they are?
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Old April 16, 2016, 11:48   #7
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I have only so far found one issue with your essay, see below. In your essay you state the Corona is only 10,00 degrees. I didn't do any real research just took the first web page that I found regarding Corona's.

"The extended outer atmosphere of the Sun is called the corona. It has a temperature of millions of degrees, but it is 10 billion times less dense than the atmosphere of the Earth at sea level."

As a Geologist I can accept what you have written without much issue. In that we don't know what we don't know and the only way to know it will take time to learn. Which the Climate Changers don't want to accept because it defeats their real purpose which is control of the people.
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Old April 16, 2016, 16:06   #8
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You have been studying on this. Good for you. Couple of people here that I know have that habit of finding out how some things actually work. The internet makes it easier to find data. The challenge is determining if it is VALID data. That takes even more effort.

I liked the part about airfoils and a stall being a chaotic break in the theory. When I was flying small planes I became perhaps too interested in this 'edge' of the flight envelope. So when I was in a different airframe I'd get it up high and make it do that. Power on and power off stalls. Climbing and turning stalls. And the most thrilling, accelerated stalls.

Every aircraft is different. Some give you a lot of warning you're about at that point with the shakes and shudders of the structure. Some kept it to themselves until the wing just quit flying.

I'll never get the chance but I'd really like to do that again with high performance military iron. Just to see, you know?
Yes. I'd like to know more about your flight experiences for a project I'm working on.

Quote:
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I have only so far found one issue with your essay, see below. In your essay you state the Corona is only 10,00 degrees. I didn't do any real research just took the first web page that I found regarding Corona's.

"The extended outer atmosphere of the Sun is called the corona. It has a temperature of millions of degrees, but it is 10 billion times less dense than the atmosphere of the Earth at sea level."

As a Geologist I can accept what you have written without much issue. In that we don't know what we don't know and the only way to know it will take time to learn. Which the Climate Changers don't want to accept because it defeats their real purpose which is control of the people.
You are correct. It should read photosphere is 10,000 degrees, not corona.
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Old April 16, 2016, 16:42   #9
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As an earth scientist some of my research over the years has encompassed paleoclimatology (particularly in the range from the Eocene to Holocene and understanding of the paleo record in North America utilizing flora and fauna evidence in the geologic record).

Well I guess I am a heretic as far as this "new age religion" of global climate change is concerned. No one disputes Global Climate change. The dispute is what the causes are. That I and many other scientists see natural processes as the main driving force rather than man as some perceived culprit in some conspiracy to warm up the earth. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but we have been here many times before.

We are currently in the midst of an interglacial period since the end of the last glacial period near the end of the Pleistocene (roughly 10,000-13,000 years ago). There have been three major continental glacial advances and interglacials (aka "Global Warmings") during the last 70,000 years. We are in the midst of the third "interglacial" which now is termed "global warming" or "global climate change".

Those who are familiar with short (i.e. coronal mass ejections, el Nino/la Nina, volcanic/bollide ejecta, etc.) and long term cycles (i.e. earth's orbital variations such as the 23,000 year Milankovich cycle) that affect global climate change are quite familiar with the reasons for the current warming period. Meteorologists on the IPCC panel and in the current debate are not geologists nor are they necessarily familiar with paleo-climatology so many of us in the scientific community will excuse them of their ignorance.


In North America:

Wisconsin glaciation, in North America

The Wisconsin or Wisconsinian was the last major advance of continental glaciers in North America. This glaciation is made of three glacial maximums (commonly called ice ages) separated by interglacial periods (such as the one we are living in). These ice ages are called (from oldest to youngest); Tahoe, Tenaya and Tioga. The Tahoe reached its maximum extent perhaps about 70,000 years ago while little is known about the Tenaya. The Tioga was the least severe and last of the Wisconsinan group and reached its greatest advance 20,000 years ago and ended about 10,000 years before present (it started 30,000 years ago). At the height of glaciation the Bering land bridge permitted migration of mammals and humans to North America from Siberia.

It radically altered the geography of North America north of the Ohio River. At the height of the Wisconsin glaciation, ice covered most of Canada, the Upper Midwest, and New England, as well as parts of Montana and Washington. On Kelleys Island in Lake Erie or in New York's Central Park, the grooves left by these glaciers can be easily observed. In southwestern Saskatchewan and southeastern Alberta a suture zone between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets formed the Cypress Hills, which is the northernmost point in North America that remained south of the continental ice sheets.

The Great Lakes are the result of glacial scour and pooling of meltwater at the rim of the receding ice. When the enormous mass of the continental ice sheet retreated, the Great Lakes began gradually moving south due to isostatic rebound of the north shore. Niagara Falls is also a product of the glaciation, as is the course of the Ohio River, which largely supplanted the prior Teays River.

In its retreat, the Wisconsin glaciation left terminal moraines that form Long Island, Nantucket and Cape Cod, and the Oak Ridges Moraine in south central Ontario, Canada. The drumlins and eskers formed at its melting edge are landmarks of the Lower Connecticut River Valley.


Pinedale glaciation

The Pinedale glaciation was the last of the major ice ages to appear in the Rocky Mountains in the United States. The Pinedale lasted from approximately 30,000 to 10,000 years ago and was at its greatest extent between 23,500 and 21,000 years ago. This glaciation was somewhat distinct from the main Wisconsin glaciation as it was unrelated to the giant ice sheets and was instead composed of mountain glaciers. The Pinedale and the main ice sheets of the Wisconsin produced features such as glacial Lake Missoula, which would break free from its ice dam causing the massive Missoula floods. Geologists estimate that the cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted on average of 55 years and that the floods occurred approximately 40 times over the 2,000 year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. Glacial lake outburst floods such as these are not uncommon today in Iceland and other places.


Time equivalent Glaciations:

Other time equivalent glaciations (ice ages) and interglacials (global warmings) were in force at the same time around the world. The Wisconsin (in North America), Weichsel (in Scandinavia), Devensian (in the British Isles), Midlandian (in Ireland) and Würm glaciation (in the Alps) are the most recent glaciations of the Pleistocene epoch, which ended around 10,000 BCE. The general glacial advance began about 70,000 BCE, and reached its maximum extent about 18,000 BCE. In Europe, the ice sheet reached northern Germany.


Milankovich Cycle:

Milankovitch cycles also known as Wobble, are the collective effect of changes in the Earth's movements upon its climate, named after Serbian civil engineer and mathematician Milutin Milankoviæ. The eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession of the Earth's orbit vary in several patterns, resulting in 100,000 year ice age cycles of the Quaternary glaciation over the last few million years

We are at about the midpoint of the current interglacial ("global warming") period +3,000 years given what we know about the periodicity of ice ages and interglacials and the corresponding Milankovich Cycle. Periodic variations in the earth's position relative to the sun as the earth orbits, affecting the distribution of the solar radiation reaching the earth and causing climatic changes that have profound impacts on the abundance and distribution of organisms, best seen in the fossil record of the Quaternary Period (the last 1.6 million years). Climate patterns are dictated by the orbital path of the earth around the sun (apogee/perigee). During the warmest periods (like now) the earth's orbit is more elliptically exagerated with close passes to the sun during the mid-cycle.

The Earth's axis completes one full cycle of precession approximately every 26,000 years. At the same time, the elliptical orbit rotates, more slowly, leading to a 22,000 year cycle in the equinoxes. In addition, the angle between Earth's rotational axis and the normal to the plane of its orbit changes from 21.5 degrees to 24.5 degrees and back again on a 41,000 year cycle. Presently, this angle is 23.44 degrees. But I digress.


Soooo .... Yes, I am a heretic or a "Denialist":

Before I get too complicated for some and begin to go into a raging description involving astrophysics (another past endevour of research and academia) and really lose the reader, I will end it here. The simple fact is that man has little if any overall impact on the climate of the earth. The processes of "global climate change" are largely natural processes. I am aware that many of the new-age religion will balk and call me a denialist. Be that as it may, I will proudly wear the label of "heretic". Many a great scientist has had that label thrust upon him/her from time to time.

I'll leave the subject at that.

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Old April 16, 2016, 17:47   #10
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The equilibrium of the biosphere is something in itself.
To which, nearly all creatures owe their lives to that miniscule
setting on the temperature scale. To bad nobody can comprehend
the dynamics, let alone predict it by models.

It is now coming to light that planets are highly electrically charged bodies.
They correspond to the tremendous electrical solar output.
So our solar system is like a bowl of electrolytic soup.
And contemporary science don't like the Electric Universe idea very much.
They like to huddle around a dark, bewildering universe where doom lurks
around the corner, instead of maybe realizing the construct is more like
a mathematical fractal that is scaleable, with observations that can
directly correlate to models in the lab.

To me, I think current science is largely in a dark age., and just as bad
as any State sponsored religion.
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Old April 16, 2016, 18:42   #11
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So, if I read all of this correctly, history professor here, the earth, sun, moon are all very large, man is very, very small, and the earth, sun and moon will do as it damn well pleases, as man exerts little to nothing to those naturally recurring processes we refer to as climate and climate change?

Correct?

I have a question(s) for all you scientist types here.

Is there a natural cycle for earthquakes, as in, an earth wide dormant period and an active period?

We seem to be having a whole lot more than normal these past forty or so years.
And really large ones.

And when will Yellowstone blow off its head?
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Old April 16, 2016, 19:42   #12
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Correct?

I have a question(s) for all you scientist types here.

Is there a natural cycle for earthquakes, as in, an earth wide dormant period and an active period?

We seem to be having a whole lot more than normal these past forty or so years.
And really large ones.

And when will Yellowstone blow off its head?
It is a cycle of Stresses building up and being release as the Tectonic Plate move. Once the Plates have exerted enough force to overcome the friction between the Plates you then will have an Earthquake. The problem is we can't predict with any accuracy when that will happen.

While we can use Geophysics to determine that there is magma in the chamber of a volcano we can't predict when an eruption will occur. If you recall Mt. St. Helen we knew that the volcano had magma building up in it chamber but they could not predict the actual eruption. If I recall correctly a geologist on a nearby mountain was killed from the blast while observing the volcano and the bulge that was forming on the side of the volcano from the magma chamber filling with magma. While they knew it was going to blow they just didn't know when and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old April 16, 2016, 19:43   #13
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Here's a well put piece to the UK gov., back in 2013.

Maybe says it all - whereas the opposition, the climate proponents - just want another tax!
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Old April 16, 2016, 20:25   #14
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I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's they were telling everyone to buy a good sleeping bag, for the coming ice age.
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Old April 16, 2016, 20:45   #15
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Originally Posted by STG_58_guy View Post
Thank you.

I like to point out that the proposed solutions to global warming always involve giving control of the Earth's most critical resources and vast sums of tax dollars to those making the proposal.
I predict we will soon see the end of the petro dollar, and will usher in the use of the Carbon-dollar, to be used for the same purposes as the petro dollar once was. There has been more money made by the mega banksters in the currency conversions involving oil than the actual sales of oil, and we will now see it utilized with the global warming scare. That's how they control things. Hell, they designed it that way.
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Old April 16, 2016, 21:00   #16
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In the UK it was snowing, in summer 1963 - by 1976/7 there were 250 yr record high's in the summers, such that people were dying from the heat!
I see your point Okiefarmer, as opening up opportunities for global taxing the smog right out of the newly developing nations, China being one - perhaps, to combat the rising Yuan attack, that threaten bretton woods.
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Old April 16, 2016, 21:21   #17
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Estimated age of Earth,,4.3 million years. With an estimated 5 ice ages.
So mother Gea/Earth will survive. Humankind may not.
So is the theroectical global warming ia preclude to another ice age?
Or even a minor ice age that brought on the Dark Ages?

History seems to repeat itself.
Just my humble thoughts.
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Old April 16, 2016, 21:37   #18
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I think you meant billion, not million!
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Old April 18, 2016, 01:36   #19
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I must have been reading Black Blade's research all these years. This is how I understand things anyway. You are not a denier sir.

But I wouldn't say the earth and sun are large and man is small so don't worry about it.

We have pumped a bunch of CO2 into the atmosphere. Bad or good? Hard to say. Living things absolutely impact climate. Every molecule of oxygen gas (O2, yes, it forms molecules) in the atmosphere was liberated by a living organism. O2 is 21% of the atmosphere and impacts climate. Plants dump vast amounts of water vapor into the atmosphere and that impacts climate as well. We can impact climate too.

So we shouldn't be careless.

How big of an impact do we have compared to other natural cycles? I'd say small compared to events over geologic time scales but some impact on human time scales. It is actually the rate of change that is concerning.

Somebody asked about Yellow Stone. It blows up every 600,000 years or so. It's over due. Sometimes it blows up big. Sometimes it blows up really big. An event like that would dwarf whatever impact humans have had. Of that there is no doubt.

As far as I know, there has been no increase in the frequency or severity of earthquakes or volcanoes recently. Every year there is maybe a 1/10,000 chance a super volcano like Yellow Stone will go off.

Black Blade, you really should go on about passing through the galactic plane and major arms. I know you want to
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Old April 18, 2016, 01:38   #20
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I hid this thread here and nobody was supposed to find it. How did this happen?
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Old April 18, 2016, 01:56   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E5c03 View Post
Estimated age of Earth,,4.3 million years. With an estimated 5 ice ages.
So mother Gea/Earth will survive. Humankind may not.
So is the theroectical global warming ia preclude to another ice age?
Or even a minor ice age that brought on the Dark Ages?

History seems to repeat itself.
Just my humble thoughts.
Black Blade could explain this better, but it is likely that the earth has been completely frozen over a few times in its history. Google Snowball Earth.

It is also true that palm trees grew on land masses near what we call the antarctic and arctic circle today. The surface of the earth has been a lot warmer than it is now.

Regional changes can be dramatic. If it weren't for ocean currents, Scandinavia would be covered in glaciers like Greenland. The British Isles would be more like the Bearing Sea. Stop the Gulf Stream and it would suck to be them.

I love this stuff.

Have you ever seen the little dunes of sand that form in the surf on the beach, or on the bottom of a flowing stream? The Missoula floods Black Blade was talking about left the exact same features. Except you can see them from space.



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Old April 18, 2016, 13:50   #22
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Sometimes Darwin is left conveniently out of the discussion - survival of the fittest. It can be argued that the Planet absorbs it's parasitic forces, as it has an indomitable immune system! Though I do think that cleanliness is next to dogliness, and we shouldn't shit in the bed!
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