The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The AR Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 06, 2019, 17:18   #1
Tuhlmann
THAT guy
Contributor
 
Tuhlmann's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 69411
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here & There, WI
Posts: 2,378
14.5” expectations

I know everyone on the internet shoots sub MOA “all day long”, but what kind of accuracy is generally considered acceptable by military standards? I thought it was 4 MOA, but that was for the M1 if I recall. Is there substantial differences between 20”, 16”, & 14.5” ARs?
__________________
Future Crotchety Ol' Bastard

I’m saying: Think about your contribution to society. Be careful when you get into a business that extracts value. Broaden your idea about what’s enough. And for God’s sake, think about who you are.” - J. Bogle
Tuhlmann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 17:39   #2
John Crusher
Veteran Member
Gold Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 18663
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,830
Bullet weight,rate of twist and distance shooting all come into play. I have 3 14.5" ARs and they all have different rates of twist so with the right bullet they are pretty even @ 100 with -2" groups. Change ammo and the formula goes out the window. I don't have any longer barreled ARs to compare.
__________________
Vigilance in Living Counteracts Stupidity in Dying.
John Crusher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:10   #3
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 5,054
All results dependent on barrel quality.
A good barrel will shoot tight groups with most ammoes.
POI is ammo dependant as groups will shift with changes in ammoes but still be good.
I define AR *good* as ~moa or so.
That is my experience with 14.5's & 16's anyhow.
__________________
The trick is in what one emphasizes.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy.
The amount of work is the same.


Carlos Castenada
TenTea is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:25   #4
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
I've got a couple of SS 18" HB ARs that shoot 69s and 75s at 1MOA or better. I took a brand new shooter to Thunder Ranch for the "Mid-Range AR" class (100 to 700 yards), and that SOB shot multiple 5/8ths and 3/4ths groups while we were sighting in. But he's got great hand-eye coordination, slow heart rate, and is naturally athletic. I'm happy enough if I'm at 1MOA with those guns. Jonathan shoots those guns at 1MOA or better - but he's got great eyes and hands. Less focus and reps - but that's coming.

I've got multiple ARs with 16" barrels - mostly Daniel Defense and Noveske. I thought they'd shoot AMAZING. Nope. Chrome-lined and plenty good = sub-1.5 MOA or so with expensive ammo (Hornady Match 75 gr. Whatever), and 2.0 - 2.5 with Federal ball and Federal Green Tip.

I've got a couple ARs with 14.5" barrels - both are CHF Noveske that I bought on sale a couple of Decembers ago. Same-same as the other CHF / non-target barrels: ~1.5MOA with 75 gr. BTHP, and 2.0 - 2.25 with ball and 62 gr. green-tip.

That's all I've got.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:25   #5
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Been shooting, a LOT, with the 10.5 inch barrel on one of the so called "AR pistols" and its about 3 inches with 55 FMJ surplus ammo.

I would expect the 14.5 to do same or a hair better.

Minute of a LARGE man at 300 plus though.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:33   #6
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Hey, YH -

Have you shot that 10.5" over a chrono so you know (real world) what you're getting for MV out of the ammo you're using?

Just curious. I know that I can do the math on "40fps / per inch lost", but I'm wondering if that is true in this caliber at this barrel length.

Thanks!
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:43   #7
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
Hey, YH -

Have you shot that 10.5" over a chrono so you know (real world) what you're getting for MV out of the ammo you're using?

Just curious. I know that I can do the math on "40fps / per inch lost", but I'm wondering if that is true in this caliber at this barrel length.

Thanks!
No Sir I have not, been a very long time since I even set up my Chrono.

With the immense flash/fireball and such, it for sure ain't burning all the powder.

The ammo was some of the Malaysian military I have on hand from many, many, decades ago.

AS I get older, my rifles are getting smaller, go figure.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:46   #8
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
You're probably tougher than me, as I've been reducing the weight of my rifles for a few years, and I ain't even hit 50 yet. To me, the greatest improvement in the entire history of the AR-15 is the Daniel Defense 16" pencil barrel. I think fully-built ARs are coming in under 7 lbs. I keep buying them DD barrels because I fear they'll go the way of the Steyr CHF FAL barrels...
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 19:54   #9
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
You're probably tougher than me, as I've been reducing the weight of my rifles for a few years, and I ain't even hit 50 yet. To me, the greatest improvement in the entire history of the AR-15 is the Daniel Defense 16" pencil barrel. I think fully-built ARs are coming in under 7 lbs. I keep buying them DD barrels because I fear they'll go the way of the Steyr CHF FAL barrels...
When the Army went to the heavier barrels, friend of mine "gifted" me five brand new colt mp marked pencil ones one morning after PT.

Built my very first AR off one of them.

Then a couple more.

Still got two left, in the brown wrappers.

My favorite ARs, are still those old A1 models, triangle hand guards and all.

Things just feel right in hand.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 20:00   #10
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
I just spent all my gun money and horse-trading funds on a new SAN/Swiss 550.

But the minute I get back to not-negative, I'm building one of those SP-1s or whatever they're called. I've been needing one since GI Joe carried it in the jungle hunting the White Tiger.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 21:01   #11
Mebsuta
Khemi, Stygia
Contributor
 
Mebsuta's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 4143
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Khemi, Stygia
Posts: 10,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
My favorite ARs, are still those old A1 models, triangle hand guards and all.
Tambien.
__________________
Hai
Mebsuta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 06, 2019, 21:13   #12
Tuhlmann
THAT guy
Contributor
 
Tuhlmann's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 69411
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here & There, WI
Posts: 2,378
I know about all of the variables that go into accuracy potential, and I was really interested to know if there is a standard for service acceptability, but I’m glad to hear these numbers from you guys.

I twisted up a Faxon 14.5 1:8 pencil barrel, free-floated onto a Faxon upper. Super light setup, in the same vein as Brunop’s direction. Shoots nice, but I was besting out at about 2.5”. Shooting 62gr American Eagle at 4x. Now there are a lot of things I could change but let’s pretend I can’t, just like an issued rifle. Would that be considered “combat effective” by current standards? That is 20” @ 800 yds, which is way farther than I would attempt with this setup, but I think that is the width of a torso. I’m used to better, but I’m trying to not let perfection get in the way of good enough for a practical rifle. Just want to check with y’all to see if my head is right on this.
__________________
Future Crotchety Ol' Bastard

I’m saying: Think about your contribution to society. Be careful when you get into a business that extracts value. Broaden your idea about what’s enough. And for God’s sake, think about who you are.” - J. Bogle
Tuhlmann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:04   #13
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
I know about all of the variables that go into accuracy potential, and I was really interested to know if there is a standard for service acceptability, but I’m glad to hear these numbers from you guys.

I twisted up a Faxon 14.5 1:8 pencil barrel, free-floated onto a Faxon upper. Super light setup, in the same vein as Brunop’s direction. Shoots nice, but I was besting out at about 2.5”. Shooting 62gr American Eagle at 4x. Now there are a lot of things I could change but let’s pretend I can’t, just like an issued rifle. Would that be considered “combat effective” by current standards? That is 20” @ 800 yds, which is way farther than I would attempt with this setup, but I think that is the width of a torso. I’m used to better, but I’m trying to not let perfection get in the way of good enough for a practical rifle. Just want to check with y’all to see if my head is right on this.
Yes, but I'd back off to less than 600 yds vs 800.

A decent day, can do head shots at 300 all day long, with a decent scope mounted AR, 20 inch barrel.

250 or so with 16 down to 14.5 should be doable.

100 to 150 with my current love, the 10.5 and a red dot.

Practical shooting here, if things ever go really sour, over 300, leave it alone or if ya just must, use a decent bolt gun.

My SSG, Remington 700's, are all zeroed poa for 300 yds.

Long range shooting in times of trouble, best avoided.

Steel plates and paper targets don;t shoot back at a fellow.

"Combat effective" is never running out of loaded magazines, having something ya can hump all day, with enough ammo, and hit whatever ya aiming at out to 300 yds or so.

With our vegetation here, I can't see anyone/anything past say 100 yds most of the time, in most places. Between tall grasses, and mesquite trees.

If I did see something dangerous out at 200 or 300 yds, I'd just lay down and let it pass by.

A combat effective rifle, is one that's geared/set up for the environment you're fighting in.

JMHO
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:12   #14
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
I just spent all my gun money and horse-trading funds on a new SAN/Swiss 550.

But the minute I get back to not-negative, I'm building one of those SP-1s or whatever they're called. I've been needing one since GI Joe carried it in the jungle hunting the White Tiger.
I've been selling off a lot of duplicates I picked up along the way lately.

A Tavor and an AUG are calling my name now for some reason, why, just because.

One of my A1's is set up like, I think its called, a Delta Elite, its got a 3to 9 rubber coated scope on it.
Scope sits real high.
But the thing is accurate, real decent trigger.
Easy to carry.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:12   #15
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
I know about all of the variables that go into accuracy potential, and I was really interested to know if there is a standard for service acceptability, but I’m glad to hear these numbers from you guys.

I twisted up a Faxon 14.5 1:8 pencil barrel, free-floated onto a Faxon upper. Super light setup, in the same vein as Brunop’s direction. Shoots nice, but I was besting out at about 2.5”. Shooting 62gr American Eagle at 4x...
Yeah, my answer was wordy, but I was saying ^ this: 2.0 to 2.5 with Federal ball (55 or 62 gr.) is as good as I can get out of expensive rifle components. It's "good enough" because there's no way to do better with that ammo.

I have no combat experience. I've shot a LOT of paper plates, steel targets, and IPSC silhouettes with ARs at distances ranging from 10 feet to 800 yards.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:22   #16
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
YH -

If you see Tangos at 300 you'd lay down and let them go under *any* circumstance, or only if:

a. they weren't hunting you specifically / they're just 'passing through'

b. you were at a numerical disadvantage

c. you thought you could do better if they got closer

d. you thought you could do better at a different time?


I'm thinking that if I'm by myself at 300 and they're walking away from me or mine, I'm letting them go.

OTOH my inexperienced mind says that if they're walking *towards* me and mine, I'd rather start shooting at, say, 500 (suppressed) and start with the back-most dude. Kinda 'sneak up' on 'em so-to-speak.

Especially if I were numbers down. Is this wrong?
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:24   #17
Tuhlmann
THAT guy
Contributor
 
Tuhlmann's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 69411
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here & There, WI
Posts: 2,378
I appreciate your honesty, guys. Your responses plus the link below make me feel better. Just wanted to make sure I was being reasonable in my expectations, even if I’ll never shoot as well as all the internet SPECOPS snipers.

Link to discussion at M4carbines for anyone interested:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...rvice-Accuracy
__________________
Future Crotchety Ol' Bastard

I’m saying: Think about your contribution to society. Be careful when you get into a business that extracts value. Broaden your idea about what’s enough. And for God’s sake, think about who you are.” - J. Bogle
Tuhlmann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 00:37   #18
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
YH -

If you see Tangos at 300 you'd lay down and let them go under *any* circumstance, or only if:

a. they weren't hunting you specifically / they're just 'passing through'

b. you were at a numerical disadvantage

c. you thought you could do better if they got closer

d. you thought you could do better at a different time?


I'm thinking that if I'm by myself at 300 and they're walking away from me or mine, I'm letting them go.

OTOH my inexperienced mind says that if they're walking *towards* me and mine, I'd rather start shooting at, say, 500 (suppressed) and start with the back-most dude. Kinda 'sneak up' on 'em so-to-speak.

Especially if I were numbers down. Is this wrong?

I tried to explain this to a friend local here once.

He was having trouble with all the variables and such.

My back pastures have been wild for a few yrs, grown over, gone back to natural, tall grasses, scrub brush, mesquites.

I left him sitting on the patio and told him to come find me in five minutes, I'd be in the pasture, say 600 ft by 600 ft.

He got within 10 or 15 feet of me, while I was laying still, never found me, and gave up after 20 minutes.

The human eye, sees movement, if it ain't moving, its damn hard to spot even a big old fellow like myself unless ya trip right over it.

When he walked straight at me a time or two, his "target" was only about 8 inches wide, head, and say 3 inches by 20 or so for shoulders and the grasses broke up that small profile.

Search teams are always walking right past dead bodies in the wild.

I was wearing a brown T shirt and tan colored short pants.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 01:20   #19
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
""OTOH my inexperienced mind says that if they're walking *towards* me and mine, I'd rather start shooting at, say, 500 (suppressed) and start with the back-most dude. Kinda 'sneak up' on 'em so-to-speak.

Especially if I were numbers down. Is this wrong? ""


Forgot.

You've walked along a path, game trail I'm sure.

If ya in an area, where you can see someone out 3 to 5 hundred yds, and prefer not to engage, wise, and they are coming in your direction, then the old training kicks in.

The bubba's beat it into my head over the course of many yrs, and the variables are too great to cover all of them here, but this might help.

You're in someone else's backyard, snooping around, and see folks heading ya way, ones you'd prefer to not have contact with.

People in familiar areas, one they feel safe in, or believe they "own" follow along roads and trails pretty much. Same for untrained people.

Always have yourself in a position, as a natural state of being, where you can move off quickly into a concealment point, but it has to be one, where the oncoming people, would not naturally be looking at, as they come near you and yours.

If the trail bends to their right as they near you, they will be looking "up the trail" to the right, their intended or natural route of march.

Knowing this, your concealment point, will be in the opposite direction at this point.

Said another way, as my instructors taught me, what will them other people be looking at, naturally, as they come near you, then just make damn sure you ain;t where they be looking!

Again, its really hard to pick up a person, down, still, done properly, even if folks are looking for you.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 01:48   #20
fussbudget
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 81806
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 75
Group size isn't something I care all that much about anymore.
If I can hit the steel out to 300 with my 11.5 SBR AR 15 thats just fine with me.
Minute of steel not minute of angle.
I used to be into target shooting and had a blast doing it so I get the reason guys and girls do it. Just all that much fun anymore.
fussbudget is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 10:03   #21
jhend170
Registered
Contributor
 
jhend170's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 76477
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,938
I know that 3moa is acceptable for ammo, but not sure about the rifles themselves. My assumption would be the combination of the rifle and ammo should be 3moa, but that's purely an assumption on my part. I get pretty decent accuracy from most brand-name M193 from my accuracy build, about half of that 3moa req, so who knows. With my custom loads (69g SMKs over Varget) it goes into 3/4" so long as I do my part, but I think 1.5moa for military ammo is decent.

As to your other question, barrel length and accuracy have literally nothing to do with each other. You can take a match barrel and cut it from 20 to 10 inches and it will still be a match barrel. The only thing that changes is velocity, and that can allow the forces of wind drift to affect the path of the bullet as it has more flight time to do so. In a controlled environment (think indoor 100yd range) the only thing that will change is POI will be lower for shorter barrels, but the accuracy will be there.
jhend170 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 10:28   #22
Sgt_Gold
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 6672
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Behind enemy lines
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
I know everyone on the internet shoots sub MOA “all day long”, but what kind of accuracy is generally considered acceptable by military standards? I thought it was 4 MOA, but that was for the M1 if I recall. Is there substantial differences between 20”, 16”, & 14.5” ARs?
3" at 100 meters is the maximum group size for a rack grade M16 or M4. Most will shoot under 2", and I've only seen two that had to be sent back to depot due to not holding the 3" standard.
Sgt_Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 17:03   #23
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Good info. Thanks.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 17:07   #24
Tat2
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 52329
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,527
I have some friends at Noveske and they told me they got some of their best groups ever from their 14.5” Afghan barrels. My Noveske CHF 16” Barrel will shoot 77gr Sierra handloads into an inch.

I have a 10.5” Noveske SS Pistol build that I need to Chrono. Just curious....
It will make head shots all day long at 200yds.

T
Tat2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 18:04   #25
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Sorry for drifting the thread off topic, easy to do around here.

To the original question.

3/4 inches at 100 yds is about normal for expectations from any military rifle.

Some will shoot far tighter groups, some a hair larger.

The question that arises, in any combat setting, can you engage the enemy, with what you have to use, in whatever conditions present themselves???

In high mountains, having a light weight rifle, with lite weight ammo pretty much becomes the norm for everyone, because that's what the load the people can handle at high altitudes. In high mountains, the troops need to carry enough stuff to stay warm, and everything becomes a compromise.

In wide open spaces, those damned deserts, hell, an old bolt action No4 Mk 2 might be the best weapon to have, one that can reach out and bust a target at 1000 yds.

Against non armored up people, about anything would work.
Everyone ducks when being shot at.

I have a "variety" of firearms to choose from, depending on whatever I plan or expect to confront.

Some days, a 12 gauge pump, an 870 with 18/20 inch barrel may be the perfect firearm to have, but other days, circumstances, it could be viewed as a worthless club, totally non effective.

Urban areas, presents a whole nutter host of issues.

Having friends with ya, each armed to handle whatever one might faces, is always a good thing.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 18:41   #26
TenTea
Registered
Contributor
 
TenTea's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 72247
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wisco
Posts: 5,054
From the M4Carbine thread.

Quote:
Anything shooting 4-5 MOA should have been made by a drunk Communist...
__________________
The trick is in what one emphasizes.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy.
The amount of work is the same.


Carlos Castenada
TenTea is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 19:21   #27
marcosfal
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 72291
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
When the Army went to the heavier barrels, friend of mine "gifted" me five brand new colt mp marked pencil ones one morning after PT.

Built my very first AR off one of them.

Then a couple more.

Still got two left, in the brown wrappers.

My favorite ARs, are still those old A1 models, triangle hand guards and all.

Things just feel right in hand.
I also really like the A1 sights and buttstock better as well. For a fighting rifle, I think it would be better to set them and then not have to worry about them moving. Every time I adjusted my M4 stock it was pretty close to A1 length.
marcosfal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 20:07   #28
lysanderxiii
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 70039
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
I know everyone on the internet shoots sub MOA “all day long”, but what kind of accuracy is generally considered acceptable by military standards? I thought it was 4 MOA, but that was for the M1 if I recall. Is there substantial differences between 20”, 16”, & 14.5” ARs?
The military specification only requires 5.6 inch extreme spread at 100 yards, max....
lysanderxiii is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 20:14   #29
lysanderxiii
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 70039
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold View Post
3" at 100 meters is the maximum group size for a rack grade M16 or M4. Most will shoot under 2", and I've only seen two that had to be sent back to depot due to not holding the 3" standard.
The published rework standard for the 20 inch barrel M16A1, M16A2, and M16A4 is five (5) inches at 100 yards.
lysanderxiii is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 20:36   #30
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 19,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcosfal View Post
I also really like the A1 sights and buttstock better as well. For a fighting rifle, I think it would be better to set them and then not have to worry about them moving. Every time I adjusted my M4 stock it was pretty close to A1 length.
Same here, I started out with the A1, then ended with a CAR/M4.
Shorter, lighter, handier, were what I and the folks working with me were always looking for, in everything we had to hump.

This above could be taken several different ways.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 07, 2019, 21:23   #31
Sgt_Gold
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 6672
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Behind enemy lines
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
The published rework standard for the 20 inch barrel M16A1, M16A2, and M16A4 is five (5) inches at 100 yards.
My bad. The 3 MOA was the standard we used to select rack grade rifles for competition.

The delivery spec lists 5 MOA as the mechanical standard. The actual target and spec is on page 11.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/mil...71186_(AR).pdf

The training standard as per FM 3-22-9 is 6 MOA. The circle on the 25 meter zeroing target is 4 CM. Keeping all your zeroing rounds inside that circle corresponds to 18" at 300 yards.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...3-22-9/c05.htm
Sgt_Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 08, 2019, 00:25   #32
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat2 View Post
I have some friends at Noveske and they told me they got some of their best groups ever from their 14.5” Afghan barrels. My Noveske CHF 16” Barrel will shoot 77gr Sierra handloads into an inch.

I have a 10.5” Noveske SS Pistol build that I need to Chrono. Just curious....
It will make head shots all day long at 200yds.

T
Those "Afghan" barrels are the SS barrels, right?

My Noveske CHF 14.5" barrels haven't shot 77s or hand loads. But they will *not* shoot 75 gr. Hornady factory loads / BTHPs into an inch AFAIK.

I'll admit I haven't spent a lot of time trying, but maybe I should test some other bullets.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 03:29   #33
grumpy1
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 72190
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: ut
Posts: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuhlmann View Post
I know about all of the variables that go into accuracy potential, and I was really interested to know if there is a standard for service acceptability, but I’m glad to hear these numbers from you guys.
I don’t know what was in the FM for accuracy, but me and my fellow range officers used to set up the bases of spent 40mm chalk rounds on the target stands set out at 25 yards. We would shoot them off with our M4’s while we waited for the next group to show up at the range. We abused our M4’s pretty bad too. I think we melted 4 or 5 barrels to the point that the barrel gauge couldn’t fit down the barrel. We didn’t get in trouble until we melted the barrel of the M249 saw, we did get chewed out pretty good for that one. The armor was more upset over the M249 than the base commander was. Had several range days where we had rounds cooking off because the M4’s were so hot.

I thing our M4’s were a 1/7 twist rate and all we shot was M855 with a little bit of tracer ammo for night familiar fires.

We never really shoot for groups size at any distance past 25 yards as that was where we qualified at and didn’t really work on distance shooting with the M4 as that was our entry teams primary weapon and we practiced at close quarters.

Although I did have to put 10 rounds into a 10 inch target at 100 yards with iron sighted M4 in order to start my sniper course. It really sucked for the guy who flew half way around the world, flew in from Okinawa, only to get dropped before noon. I think he had been state side for less than 18 hours.
grumpy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 04:15   #34
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Ouch.

But good.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 05:04   #35
Tat2
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 52329
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
Those "Afghan" barrels are the SS barrels, right?

My Noveske CHF 14.5" barrels haven't shot 77s or hand loads. But they will *not* shoot 75 gr. Hornady factory loads / BTHPs into an inch AFAIK.

I'll admit I haven't spent a lot of time trying, but maybe I should test some other bullets.
Yes the Afghan is SS. I have never had any good luck with 75gr Hornadys. The 77gr Sierra always grouped way better.

T
Tat2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 10:45   #36
nvcdl
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1312
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,597
Most ammo is not going to provide optimum accuracy. Premium match ammunition and handloads will usually decrease groups sizes significantly. A run of the mill AR might shoot 1-2moa with good ammo - 3-4 moa with run of the mill ball ammo..
nvcdl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 20:18   #37
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat2 View Post
I have never had any good luck with 75gr Hornadys. The 77gr Sierra always grouped way better.

T
I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up.

I've had great success with Hornady 75s in 16" and 18" ss barrels. I can't shoot any better than .75 MOA anyway.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2019, 21:27   #38
W.E.G.
FAL Files Administrator
Silver Contributor
 
W.E.G.'s Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1211
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 40,530
The foundation of accuracy is good bullet and good barrel.

Once you have those two things, the ancillary elements of the equation are usually also present.

While I don't doubt some folks have gotten better results occasionally with the 77 over the 75 (or vice-versa), I do question the sample size, and the quality-control of the assembly of the components, and the testing conditions surrounding claims that one is better than the other at 300 yards or less. Based on two decades personal experience with both of those bullets, I have witnessed both of them shoot very accurately in good barrels.

One of the problems with 14.5" barrels is the "tier" thing. BTW, the whole "tier" thing is a fanbois expression that I really prefer to avoid because of all the negative connotations that surface when that language works its way into the discussion. Nonetheless, it has been my observation that many of the shorter barrel sizes seem to come from sources that can fairly be described as "second tier." Once you find yourself in that company, its a crap-shoot whether you have a "good barrel" or a garden stake. To make matters worse, the pre-built uppers from many sources are "slapped-together" at best. An accceptable-quality barrel, poorly installed, will also never shoot well.

I'll say it again: The foundation of accuracy is a good bullet and a good barrel. A crummy barrel will never shoot a good bullet well. I once had a 14.5" SBR. It had a crummy barrel. It shot 5 MOA groups with ammo that shot 1 MOA out of my rifles with good barrels.
__________________
.
.
.

Ask me about the Mason-Dixon FAL Collectors Association.
W.E.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2019, 09:10   #39
grumpy1
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 72190
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: ut
Posts: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
The foundation of accuracy is good bullet and good barrel.

Once you have those two things, the ancillary elements of the equation are usually also present.

While I don't doubt some folks have gotten better results occasionally with the 77 over the 75 (or vice-versa), I do question the sample size, and the quality-control of the assembly of the components, and the testing conditions surrounding claims that one is better than the other at 300 yards or less. Based on two decades personal experience with both of those bullets, I have witnessed both of them shoot very accurately in good barrels.

One of the problems with 14.5" barrels is the "tier" thing. BTW, the whole "tier" thing is a fanbois expression that I really prefer to avoid because of all the negative connotations that surface when that language works its way into the discussion. Nonetheless, it has been my observation that many of the shorter barrel sizes seem to come from sources that can fairly be described as "second tier." Once you find yourself in that company, its a crap-shoot whether you have a "good barrel" or a garden stake. To make matters worse, the pre-built uppers from many sources are "slapped-together" at best. An accceptable-quality barrel, poorly installed, will also never shoot well.

I'll say it again: The foundation of accuracy is a good bullet and a good barrel. A crummy barrel will never shoot a good bullet well. I once had a 14.5" SBR. It had a crummy barrel. It shot 5 MOA groups with ammo that shot 1 MOA out of my rifles with good barrels.
Very well stated WEG.

I would just add that any barrel poorly installed will struggle to shoot good groups.

While I haven’t shot nearly as many reloads as you have, I do find myself shooting more Sierra bullets than Hornady bullets. But that is for perhaps different reasons, one I like the price point and two they very consistent on there weights.
grumpy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2019, 09:41   #40
Tat2
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 52329
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up.

I've had great success with Hornady 75s in 16" and 18" ss barrels. I can't shoot any better than .75 MOA anyway.
.75MOA is pretty darn good. I could usually get .50MOA out of the Sierra. And sometimes .33MOA 5 shot group out of a JP Barrel.

T

Last edited by Tat2; January 12, 2019 at 15:06.
Tat2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2019, 13:06   #41
Tuscan Raider
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 19668
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 5,628
You can expect to be able to engage anything
500 meters or less with a good heavy bullet.
__________________
"An eye for an eye makes us all blind."

Ghandi

"We, here in America, hold in our hands the hopes of the world, the fate of the coming years; and shame and disgrace will be ours if in our eyes the light of high resolve is dimmed, if we trail in the dust the golden hopes of men."

Theodore Roosevelt
Address at Carnegie Hall
March 30, 1912
Tuscan Raider is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2019, 11:53   #42
lysanderxiii
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 70039
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold View Post
My bad. The 3 MOA was the standard we used to select rack grade rifles for competition.

The delivery spec lists 5 MOA as the mechanical standard. The actual target and spec is on page 11.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/mil...71186_(AR).pdf

The training standard as per FM 3-22-9 is 6 MOA. The circle on the 25 meter zeroing target is 4 CM. Keeping all your zeroing rounds inside that circle corresponds to 18" at 300 yards.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...3-22-9/c05.htm
You have an old copy of the specs for the M4A1...

The delivery limit is 5.6 inches at 100 yards.

lysanderxiii is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 18, 2019, 11:42   #43
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat2 View Post
.75MOA is pretty darn good. I could usually get .50MOA out of the Sierra. And sometimes .33MOA 5 shot group out of a JP Barrel.

T
I've shot lots of *almost* .5 groups before. I don't think I've ever shot 0.33 anything. Ever. And at this point, I don't see myself getting any better than I have been in the past.

I saw a youtube video where the guy who was head-to-head against Taran Butler for some national 3-gun thing in Las Vegas say he had shot 70,000 round "this year" getting ready for the Finals.

That's super cool. Meanwhile, I'm not shooting 6,000 rounds in a year - let alone in a month.
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18, 2019, 14:11   #44
Tat2
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 52329
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunop View Post
I've shot lots of *almost* .5 groups before. I don't think I've ever shot 0.33 anything. Ever. And at this point, I don't see myself getting any better than I have been in the past.

I saw a youtube video where the guy who was head-to-head against Taran Butler for some national 3-gun thing in Las Vegas say he had shot 70,000 round "this year" getting ready for the Finals.

That's super cool. Meanwhile, I'm not shooting 6,000 rounds in a year - let alone in a month.
I hear ya.... I am not shooting anywhere near as much either. But, sometimes ya just get lucky.

Looks like my memory was off....Only .377” at 100 from 18” Noveske SPR


This one is the best ever shot out of an 18” JP Barrel at 200 yards..... two in one hole on the left
Tat2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18, 2019, 17:13   #45
brunop
Refresh Key Masher
Platinum Contributor
 
brunop's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 17136
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 13,365
.463 @ 200 is crazy good.

Yeah - I've gotten lucky before. Just never could duplicate on demand at 0.50
__________________
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago
brunop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19, 2019, 14:49   #46
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 6,193
14.7" and 18" are my two favorite lengths in poodle shooters. Accuracy is not as dependent on barrel length as it is barrel quality. I have a 12.5" White Oak Armament barrel, 13.7" Noveske tube and a pair of WOA 14.7" rifles that if swap the low power optics over to a high power scope will shoot smaller groups than my Colt 20" Hbar. Actually purchased a few of the 12.5" WOA tube on a clearance and thus far have built two.

Both when finished before receiving a C-More and a Vortex Strike Fire for optics were tested with a Vortex 6.5-20x I keep just for testing actual accuracy of rifles before a 1x to 3x red dot lands on top. From a good rifle rest (same setup I used to use for benchrest) with the scope on 20x shooting Tubbs 69 DTAC which lobs SMK's using new Lake City brass and is my current reference ammo to judge accuracy of new builds both shot impressively. When I didn't push a shot left both shot 5/8" to 3/4" five shot groups from the magazine. The 13.7" Noveske shoots about the same with the Tubbs factory/semi custom ammo but with one of my hand loads it will hold 1/2" five shot groups from a rest if shooter does their job. Once the big scope comes off and the low power optics land on top can flip silver dollar size slugs from my metal fab shop off into space most times if settle down and brace off a barricade at 100 yards or less.

Have at least a dozen 14.5"/14.7" 5.56 and five in 6.8 spc II. Pin a suppressor adapter to them and have the smallest legal rifle length upper. Half of the 14.7" tube owned in both 5.56 and 6.8 are the hammer forged FN tubes Palmetto sold/sells and occasionally used to buy at $79 to $89 on sale. Bought five of the 5.56 on one order due to cost. Not all shoot the same but have a few that are solid 1" rifles at 100 yards. Have Leupold 2-7x Firedots on top of both my 14.7" WOA in PEPR mounts with Burris Fast fire red dots. Both put five shoots in 1" reliably from the magazine and when had the 20x optic on top with premium ammo or my precision hand loads would put ten rounds from the magazine inside an inch whenever shooter didn't screw up.

Remember a lot of specialized match rifles have short barrels with tube welded/pinned to make them legal 16" or give 24" of sight radius but only have 14" of actual rifled bearing surface. Many people swear 14" is the optimal length for best accuracy, harmonics and velocity in a match rim fire rifle. It's why most of my 10/22 builds get shortest barrel can make work for job at hand. Many are 16" out of default because of need to swap muzzle devices but have two with 14" barrels and pinned muzzle device that if wind cooperates shoot sub MOA at 100 yards. If a subsonic rim fire round can nest five shot groups under 1" then should be able to do with most AR cartridges if buy a good barrel, square your upper and have good barrel harmonics.

Have $450 24" barrels that drive tacks as well as 12.5" tubes and all lengths in between. Suggest you decide what your maximum range is going to be. If anticipate a fair number of 400 to 500 yard shots then I would pick an 18". If using for 250 yards and less there is no need for a barrel longer than 14.5/14.7" if buy quality. My 24" 1:8 and 24" 1:12 White Oaks are same length and same profile but totally different animals. A Noveske, White Oak Armament, Douglas, Compass Lake Engineering, Shilen, etc in 14.7" will out shoot me and most people I know. Over half of my several dozen AR's are either 14.7" or 18". Have almost as many of those two lengths than all other lengths combined. Don't worry about length determining accuracy as much as quality of tube itself.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19, 2019, 17:32   #47
kmurphy
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 29121
Join Date: May 2007
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
Posts: 1,370
I don’t know, the other day I tried out a DD M4A1 I got from Brownells (the block II looking one). Did about 2” with MKE 62gr.

I need better than the T2 red dot that was on it. For me to be able to do much more than that, I may need a magnafied optic than what was on it.

It shoots well enough for what I got it for.
kmurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2019, 09:13   #48
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,252
This is interesting, if a bit scattered around.

Let's see. Substantial difference between the various barrel lengths you listed? No, not really. Maybe depends on how you define "substantial" but I'd say generally, no.

I had one of those oddball Bushy uppers, one with the 11.5 barrel and 5.5 giant useless flash hider. Thing was 1 moa off a bag with my cousin behind the trigger. 55gr ball. Darndest thing I ever saw on a gun range. Well, almost.

My days of group shooting seem to be over, it's a struggle to see well enough for groups. In that vein, if what ever I'm holding can keep it's rounds inside a paper plate, the big ones, not the snack size, at 300 yards with me behind the trigger I'm happy. That seems to be about my limit.

I find the bullet weight discussion chuckle worthy as best. If SHTF nobody is going to be rolling their own custom length/weight ammo for a super special rifle so they can shoot a gnat's ass at 300. Most likely what they'll find after they've run off with a bag of gear and a rifle is plain Jane old 55gr ball. After all the stores have been raided one will be left to scrounge what he can pilfer, steal, kill to get. Maybe pick up a some half loaded carelessly dropped mag. What's likely to be in that mag and found in small caches here and there will be simple 55gr ball. Your rifle better be able to shoot it.

I have most of a 1200 round can of the old Norinco 55 gr stuff. Won't keep all rounds on a paper plate at 100 no matter what I shoot it out of. It's simply make-noise-and-blast-the-shit ammo until it's gone. But if worst comes to worst it still goes bang and will F up one's day if he's hit.

But then maybe that's off topic here. Oh well.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2019, 09:14   #49
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Silver Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 7,252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmurphy View Post

It shoots well enough for what I got it for.
Then it's perfect. Same as my AR.
__________________
"2A was specifically for, as you note, dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees."
Mark Graham
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2019, 11:02   #50
lockjaw
Registered
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 64904
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,366
I wish I could shoot as consistently as any of my barrels potential. I understand that there are some exceptional shooters out there, but I personally do not know anyone who has an excellent day at the range, each and every time they train.

Some barrels simply prefer some types of ammo over others. I suspect that the vast majority of us lack the time and/or attention (... prefer to shoot assorted guns, not just one or two religiously) to find out... and those that do, are the bench rest type, where a 14.5" barrel would be far from their radar.

I often read of folks bummed that they can only achieve 2-5" groups using a 2 or 4 MOA red dot sight. Do I have to explain why this makes zero sense?

I also tend to gravitate toward iron sights. I always zero iron sights on any rifle BEFORE screwing with optics. It is a personal preference, as it is less of an issue with the durability of modern battle optics. I find that it takes me a little time to acclimate and acquire a consistent sight picture from one platform to another. This affects accuracy.

I guess the point is that I think some folks spend a little too much time getting wrapped around the axle regarding accuracy potential of rifles configurared for battle (such as a 14.5" AR platform). I have observed people poo-poo solid platforms based upon a single range session for unreasonable expectations and/or addressing all (or some critical variables)... I have been guilty of it... have a shitty day at the range and partially blaming the gun, only to knock the dust off of it later to discover the gun was a shooter!

I dunnoh... I guess the point is that some folks spend a little too much time trying to chance unreasonable and/or intangible variables while forgetting to enjoy their time at the range/training.
__________________
“Do right. Do your best. Treat others as you want to be treated.” ― Lou Holtz
lockjaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files