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Old July 21, 2017, 22:13   #51
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RSS, did your family have Agwagons? those things were amazing. I never played with one much, just a couple hours. My spray time was in Pawnees, a totally acceptable glider tug

But for a nice handling taildragger, nothing beats a 185 on wheels with a Robertson kit. It's one of life's great pleasures. After that, the Otter was a lump, and the 46 a trash truck.
Honestly I am not at all certain CDN
To me a Duster wasn't all that interesting, it was like a Grain Truck compared to a Sports Car if you get my meaning. Deal was I used to spend summers flagging his and his brother's dusters as a kid. Both wives were utterly opposed to their boys flying so both decided maybe they could groom me into that trade.
Between those two brothers they had like five or six different radial Bi-Planes. Generally at least two were out of commision up in the machine sheds at any given time and all seemed different. Again this was early 70s, long time ago. I'll have to ask Pops if he remembers what they had. I don't.

When I was maybe 13 I took the front gear off landing...scared me to death, I know I sometimes sound ten feet tall but that experience was enough for me and their grass strips.

Played a bit with a local bush pilot and his De Haviland Beaver float plane, that unnerved me worse yet on landing. Ski planes were pretty cool though
All were seriously dangerous machines
we lost all the old hands up here. Couple hit dead head floaters in the Lake, one other nailed a upright pressure ridge on the winter ice during Ice Fog.

Cars, cycles race sleds never scared me, aircraft always has.

Like I mentioned to Mike the EAA still does Tri-Motor rides out of their Oshkosh museum complex. Think it's like $30 odd bones if you are a standing member, back in the 70s it was under a tenner a ticket. Been thinking about bringing Dad back there, he's mid 80s and just loved the Ford rides we took together years ago. Their warbird and vintage collection these days is pretty awesome, I know he'd love it.

P38s
Yeah I remember the "jump seat" being close quarters even for my ten ? year old ass. Then again, have you ever attempted to assume some of the gunners positions in a B17 ?
I have, super duper tight in the belly turret, totally claustrohobic.
B25 Mitchells were super tight in places as well.
Again, no clue on the model of 38' I went up in but it was a 38'
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Old July 22, 2017, 00:14   #52
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Knew a guy out of Medford that had one....lost power on takeoff.....ended up a quadriplegic and died a few years later of complications. They are just waiting to bite you in the ass.....
Yup. They're a serious runner. Hell, the French made a ground attack fighter up of them, and the USAF and others flew them in Nam as a night interdiction fighter, for Fukk sake.
Just a teeny step this side of a Mustang.
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Old July 22, 2017, 00:22   #53
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You wanna talk B-25s or T-6s, Stoney's your guy.
DC-3s, it's Crofton.
C-46 is me.

I never did nothing after the 46. Burned out. Tired of the freight game but loved it all the same. Then some buddies got killed.
It seemed everyone was cutting corners, and there was no real weather shitty enough to not fly unless it was total white out for 600 miles.
We'd go even if we couldn't see 3 runway lights ahead as long as they said the weather was good or forecast to be good at the first stop. Usually it wasn't but you landed anyway because the weather was shittier at your alternate.
We were fukking invincible until guys died. Never us though. Usually 185 pukes and the training wheel 206 crowd.
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Old July 22, 2017, 08:46   #54
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You wanna talk B-25s or T-6s, Stoney's your guy.
DC-3s, it's Crofton.
C-46 is me.

I never did nothing after the 46. Burned out. Tired of the freight game but loved it all the same. Then some buddies got killed.
It seemed everyone was cutting corners, and there was no real weather shitty enough to not fly unless it was total white out for 600 miles.
We'd go even if we couldn't see 3 runway lights ahead as long as they said the weather was good or forecast to be good at the first stop. Usually it wasn't but you landed anyway because the weather was shittier at your alternate.
We were fukking invincible until guys died. Never us though. Usually 185 pukes and the training wheel 206 crowd.
Had a friend come by last week from Alaska who did about 15 years there in everything. He said now a lot of pilots were buying the farm in Cessna Caravan 208's. He though they were trying to fly them with Super Cub or 185 mindset when in fact they i would be light twin or heavier.
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Old July 22, 2017, 18:24   #55
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Geez you guy's. Salute the bird, mourn the fallen and prove to all that you could have done it better. Jus sayin
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Old July 23, 2017, 07:03   #56
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Geez you guy's. Salute the bird, mourn the fallen and prove to all that you could have done it better. Jus sayin
I don't think one person has implied they could do it better, don't know where you pull that out of. Some of us are interested in what went wrong and have hypothesized, but that's a very different thing. Even in mentioning POSSIBLE pilot error, no one has said that they would never fall victim in similar circumstances. I think we all recognize that while there are some theoretically hard and fast rules ( "never" turn back to the runway on a dead engine ) there are usually circumstances beyond the pilot's control . Sometimes there are no good options, you make your best call and what will be will be.

The folks over at WIX tend to get all bent out of shape over speculation, something I just don't get. The conjecture here has, IMO, been respectful of Vlado, and in no respect demeaning or accusatory. As I have said before, in my experience in motor racing, "amateur failure analysis" usually starts before the dust even settles, and it is rarely as respectful as it is in aviation. And I'll bet if a friend of yours wrecked their car, you'd be guessing the cause and discussing the event on the phone with your buddies in no time.

Just sayin'.
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Old July 23, 2017, 08:51   #57
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Geez you guy's. Salute the bird, mourn the fallen and prove to all that you could have done it better. Jus sayin
Not at all. I've never flown a Mustang. Just a back seat ride. I give huge credit to those who did and do.
My aviation experience doesn't include Mustangs. I had 4000 hp pulling 48000 lbs.
An airplane with 1300 hp pulling 6000 lbs? Heck yeah, where do I sign up???

Who knows what happened, but we were talking about the last well known high speed, high angle earth entry, and it took a bit of sleuthing but in the end it was figured out, and inspections done.

Many of us here are past or present pilots. Many more here have a fascination with old airplanes. We love old rifles, so it makes sense, right?
A guy has a Kaboom with a FAL, we talk about it, figure it out, check our stuff, say a prayer, and move on.
There's no disrespect meant here. And I think I'm speaking for all.
If you fly airplanes long enough, eventually, something big will happen. You'llleither die or be a hero. And people will gather around and discuss it.
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Old July 23, 2017, 08:51   #58
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I don't think one person has implied they could do it better, don't know where you pull that out of. Some of us are interested in what went wrong and have hypothesized, but that's a very different thing. Even in mentioning POSSIBLE pilot error, no one has said that they would never fall victim in similar circumstances. I think we all recognize that while there are some theoretically hard and fast rules ( "never" turn back to the runway on a dead engine ) there are usually circumstances beyond the pilot's control . Sometimes there are no good options, you make your best call and what will be will be.

The folks over at WIX tend to get all bent out of shape over speculation, something I just don't get. The conjecture here has, IMO, been respectful of Vlado, and in no respect demeaning or accusatory. As I have said before, in my experience in motor racing, "amateur failure analysis" usually starts before the dust even settles, and it is rarely as respectful as it is in aviation. And I'll bet if a friend of yours wrecked their car, you'd be guessing the cause and discussing the event on the phone with your buddies in no time.

Just sayin'.
Exactly.

No one said I could have done better, none of us who are/were professional even thought it. For most of us who flew commercially there has been that moment (perhaps more than one) that things could have turned out much worse, but did not. Ernest Gann wrote a book called "fate is the hunter" I don't think there is a more appropriately titled book to describe aviation. Sometimes all you can do is try to not hit anyone on the ground, sometimes you are even denied this small luxury.

There is a burning desire to figure out what happened. This is done in the pursuit of knowledge so that it might not get repeated. When I instructed full time you used accidents of others as a teaching tool. Sometimes as in the case of United 232, it was a tool of what to do, how a crew can work together. Most times it was a tool of, don't do this, it ends badly and hurts. In the case of this crash, who knows, the best maintained equipment can still fail. Sometimes everything you can do as a pilot is not enough.
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Old July 23, 2017, 09:07   #59
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Yes!

Every crew lounge in the nation has reports on the findings of incidents and crashes. They are REQUIRED reading, to the point of having to initial that you did and you better have done so,
Reading and learning these makes you better. Hearing about what others did to overcome might just save your life.

My only potentially life ending incident other than the usual weather, bad mags, oil pressure reading low precautionary shutdowns, etc, was a runaway prop.
That had the big time potential of destroying me, my right seater, my airplane, and my cargo.
Worse at the time was the noise. It added significantly to the drama of those moments.
Anyway, it junked a prop and a fresh 2800. Thang God that was all.
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Old July 23, 2017, 09:23   #60
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Yes!

Every crew lounge in the nation has reports on the findings of incidents and crashes. They are REQUIRED reading, to the point of having to initial that you did and you better have done so,
Reading and learning these makes you better. Hearing about what others did to overcome might just save your life.

My only potentially life ending incident other than the usual weather, bad mags, oil pressure reading low precautionary shutdowns, etc, was a runaway prop.
That had the big time potential of destroying me, my right seater, my airplane, and my cargo.
Worse at the time was the noise. It added significantly to the drama of those moments.
Anyway, it junked a prop and a fresh 2800. Thang God that was all.
Was it by any chance a Curtiss electric prop ? I know they had a real bad rep to the point that only a handful are used today. I know originally most 46s had CW props, but any 46 I've seen in recent years has gone to Ham Standards.
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Old July 24, 2017, 00:11   #61
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It was a CE, yes. We pulled the breaker but it was done. You just slow way the hell down and hope the engine locks up before it comes off the mounts.

The CE props would "hunt", as in never hold a pitch and as a result, you got a splitting headache.
So we started pulling the breakers when in cruise and as long as you didn't change anything, you were ok.
Once we got Hamiltons, the only issues we had were more oil leaks.
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Old July 25, 2017, 16:10   #62
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Just heard that Nelson Ezell and a passenger were injured in a Sea Fury crash. No details yet, other than passenger injuries sound minimal.

ETA, Initial reports said passenger sustained broken leg(s), pilot critical, later info says passenger shaken up ( ya think ?!?!?!?) but uninjured, pilot injuries non-life threatening. Much better, I'm hoping the final word is minimal injuries at worst.

Looks like an off field landing due to loss of power. Pretty sure this Fury had the Wright R3350 engine conversion, which has had a bit of a checkered history.
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Old July 25, 2017, 19:35   #63
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Looks like an off field landing due to loss of power. Pretty sure this Fury had the Wright R3350 engine conversion, which has had a bit of a checkered history.
Not enough money in the world for me to get into a single engine anything powered by a 3350.
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Old July 26, 2017, 07:01   #64
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Not enough money in the world for me to get into a single engine anything powered by a 3350.
That was my thought as well, although it is admittedly only based on the engines reputation, not any direct or indirect experience. Has to be better than the original sleeve valve Centaurus, though.

I do love the looks of the Fury - very handsome aircraft.

No further word on Nelson's condition. Sure hope he is okay !
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Old July 26, 2017, 10:23   #65
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the 3350 is a good engine, but a 2800 is better, have know Nelson for at least 20 years and hope he comes out of this OK.
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Old July 26, 2017, 19:12   #66
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It was a CE, yes. We pulled the breaker but it was done. You just slow way the hell down and hope the engine locks up before it comes off the mounts.

The CE props would "hunt", as in never hold a pitch and as a result, you got a splitting headache.
So we started pulling the breakers when in cruise and as long as you didn't change anything, you were ok.
Once we got Hamiltons, the only issues we had were more oil leaks.
Were Curtiss Electric props always that bad? Or was it a case of age, hard service, and/or lessened maintenance over time?
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Old July 26, 2017, 21:29   #67
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Were Curtiss Electric props always that bad? Or was it a case of age, hard service, and/or lessened maintenance over time?
My understanding is that they were never well regarded. They use slip rings and brushes, which need careful and frequent maintenance. Apparently, a great many of the problems with the B26 Marauder ( "One a day in Tampa Bay" )were prop failures, partly the slip rings in the damp environment, partly that maintenance crews would sometimes run the batteries down. The next day, if the engine generators didn't have enough time to fully recharge the batteries, the props would malfunction under load, usually by "running away" or going into flat pitch as Ex described.. Obviously, better maintenance procedures helped this, as did a change in emergency procedures for a runaway. I believe in the case of a runaway, instead of pulling power and hoping it would keep flying long enough to get back down, the updated procedure was to get the nose up and get a load on the engine - kept it from overspeeding and also bought some altitude and time to sort things out.

A LOT of WW2 a/c used CEs - P38s, 39s, 40s, most 47s, Allison engined 51s, 61s, some A20s, C46s,most B29s, F4Fs, SB2Cs and so on. There are maybe a couple of F4F/FMs that still use them, Plus any of the aforementioned Army fighters. ( I think all but one or two 47s are now Hamilton Standard props. Both of the B29s now flying are Hamiltons. ). I don't know that there have been any problems on the CEs still in use, but then they get a lot more pampered now then they did during the war.
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Old July 26, 2017, 21:30   #68
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Did the P-38 Allison use the CE prop? Seems I've read about P-38 props freezing up and causing all kinds of problems during the war.

Ah, just read JA's post.
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Old July 28, 2017, 16:31   #69
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Regarding the Sea Fury mishap, this posted on WIX by the Ezell family:


"Dustin Mayfield, the passenger on board, has been released from the hospital with an arm injury. Nelson has been classified as critical stable by the medical staff and is still in the ICU. We can tell you that Mr. Ezell sustained numerous injuries and will require only surgery on his right arm and his left eye lid at this time. Today, he was cleared to start undergoing those surgeries, which is a positive sign. The plan is to complete the surgeries before removing the breathing tube and have him fully awoken by this weekend. We ask that flowers not be sent at this time, as they are not allowed at the ICU. We are thankful for all of the love and support and we welcome your prayers always."
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Old July 28, 2017, 16:47   #70
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Did the P-38 Allison use the CE prop? Seems I've read about P-38 props freezing up and causing all kinds of problems during the war.

Ah, just read JA's post.
P38s did not have a good reliability reputation in the ETO and were largely phased out as 47s and 51s became available. Due to the extremely cold temps at the altitudes they were operated at, they were prone to several issues. One was that the oil supply for the turbochargers would get too cold and viscous, causing turbo failures. Also, the hollow leading edges of the wings were used as intercoolers. With limited ability to adjust or control the degree of intercooling, this led to engine problems. In the PTO, between the later series of P38 used which had intercoolers in enlarged chin radiators, plus the lower altitudes and warmer ambient temps, the 38s performed far better and as we know, racked up a great service record.

I had an uncle who flew fighters in WW2. Initially flew 38s in the MTO and came to appreciate the ability to return home on one engine which he did several times.
Transitioned to 47s which ha e always said was the bird to be in if the mission was ground attack. He was never assigned to a P51 unit, but did get a chance to fly themm fairly often and always maintained that that was what he wanted to be flying for air to air combat.
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Old July 28, 2017, 17:31   #71
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RIP to those pilots. I never knew anyone with a warbird to teach me how to fly one. I would have jumped at the chance and damned the risk.

I did know a guy a long time ago with a MiG-17 at KCPS, but it wasn't flyable at the time and I don't know what ever happened to him or the airplane.
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Old July 29, 2017, 06:39   #72
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RIP to those pilots. I never knew anyone with a warbird to teach me how to fly one. I would have jumped at the chance and damned the risk.

I did know a guy a long time ago with a MiG-17 at KCPS, but it wasn't flyable at the time and I don't know what ever happened to him or the airplane.
HEad on down to Stallion 51 in Kissimmee, FL, they'll set you up in a T6 or a P51.

Experience of a lifetime, and cheaper than owning one !!!
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Old August 01, 2017, 07:01   #73
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Update on Nelson Ezell, pilot of the Sea Fury, posted on WIX yesterday:

"Update from Chad today: surgery went well and Nelson is showing improvements and looking better every day. Working on weaning off the vent and waking him up."

Sounds promising - fingers crossed !
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