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Old February 11, 2019, 18:56   #1
CG&L
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Legal Question

I have a small custom shop and received an email from a potential customer.
He says he bought a shotgun, specifically a Remington Model 11, that someone had chopped the barrel on. He wants to know if I can thread the barrel for some type of flash hider or choke to make it longer. His story sounds a little fishy. Maybe he is that ignorant or maybe it's an ATF sting

My question is; If I take possession of the shotgun(he brings it into my shop and leaves it overnight) does that mean I'm in possession of an unregistered SBS? Even if it's my job to make it longer?
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Old February 11, 2019, 19:14   #2
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I have a small custom shop and received an email from a potential customer.
He says he bought a shotgun, specifically a Remington Model 11, that someone had chopped the barrel on. He wants to know if I can thread the barrel for some type of flash hider or choke to make it longer. His story sounds a little fishy. Maybe he is that ignorant or maybe it's an ATF sting

My question is; If I take possession of the shotgun(he brings it into my shop and leaves it overnight) does that mean I'm in possession of an unregistered SBS? Even if it's my job to make it longer?
Given their history of setting people up, I'd not go anywhere near it. Tell your potential customer that you'd be happy to order him a new barrel, which he can easily install himself. If he wants you to do the install, or refinish it to match, have him bring you the shotty without the barrel. Tell him to leave the barrel at home.
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Old February 11, 2019, 19:18   #3
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Express your concerns to him. Tell him to take the barrel off of it and bring just the barrel to you. You can sweat one of those old Cutts multi chokes on it depending on length to bring it to 18 but he could most likely buy another barrel for what he would have in it.
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Old February 11, 2019, 20:06   #4
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Express your concerns to him. Tell him to take the barrel off of it and bring just the barrel to you. You can sweat one of those old Cutts multi chokes on it depending on length to bring it to 18 but he could most likely buy another barrel for what he would have in it.
This is the correct advice. 308/223 shooter is "out of his lane so to speak"

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Old February 11, 2019, 20:19   #5
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This is the correct advice. 308/223 shooter is "out of his lane so to speak"

Steve
Sorry about being a bit cautious, but they have set people up in the past, and ruined the lives of many a innocent firearms owner. Sure, they also snag actual criminals, but they also go out of their way to ensure everyone they snag is guilty and goes to prison, even those who are innocent or ignorant of the law. The Weavers are just one example in many.
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What if the Mystery Babalon described in Revelation, which is destroyed by the nations of the North, is actually America?

The biggest problem with religion is those who claim to know Jesus, then turn around and deny Him with their lifestyle. That is what a unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable.

Before you die, you should have a will with extra copies. The old saying "No one will screw you faster than family" is bloody well true.

Women are dangerous. All warm, soft and cuddly on the outside, and berserker, Ragnarok crazy upstairs in the control room.
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Old February 11, 2019, 21:48   #6
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I'm going to have him bring just the barrel to me. At first, he wanted me to Parkerize the shotgun. Then the barrel length problem got added in. He's been quick to answer emails until I told him he can't bring an illegal firearm to me.
There are some other odd things he did that made me suspicious.

A used barrel is only $170 off ebay and probably cheaper if he looks around. It would make more sense for him to buy a used barrel and have me Parkerize the shotgun and maybe refinish the stock.

Thanks
You guys confirmed what I thought was the right way to do it. If it's some kind of scam, he won't contact me again.
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Old February 11, 2019, 22:29   #7
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I'm going to have him bring just the barrel to me. At first, he wanted me to Parkerize the shotgun. Then the barrel length problem got added in. He's been quick to answer emails until I told him he can't bring an illegal firearm to me.
There are some other odd things he did that made me suspicious.

A used barrel is only $170 off ebay and probably cheaper if he looks around. It would make more sense for him to buy a used barrel and have me Parkerize the shotgun and maybe refinish the stock.

Thanks
You guys confirmed what I thought was the right way to do it. If it's some kind of scam, he won't contact me again.
Glad to help--I've found that even with the atf as long as one is truthful they are not an issue like they once were back in the late 80's and early 90's. Mostly ordinary guys just doing their job. Last October I was involved in inventorying an estate that had several machineguns. I called them and determined that they were not registered, explained the situation, and all they wanted were the receivers so I disassembled them so the estate could sell the parts off. About $7000.00 dollars worth of parts.

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Old February 11, 2019, 23:19   #8
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Glad to help--I've found that even with the atf as long as one is truthful they are not an issue like they once were back in the late 80's and early 90's. Mostly ordinary guys just doing their job. Last October I was involved in inventorying an estate that had several machineguns. I called them and determined that they were not registered, explained the situation, and all they wanted were the receivers so I disassembled them so the estate could sell the parts off. About $7000.00 dollars worth of parts.

Steve
That was mighty nice if them, all things considered. Glad it worked out well enough for all involved.
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Old February 11, 2019, 23:24   #9
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Tell him to go somewhere else,you can't help him.
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Old February 12, 2019, 09:21   #10
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I just got an email from him. The story changed again. The shotgun was now given to him by an 'old man' instead of his original claim as to have bought it. He knew it was an illegal firearm but he doesn't want a barrel as he's going to go NFA and get it papered as an SBS.

No mention as to getting it Parked which was the beginning of this whole thing.

He keeps changing his story about every aspect of what he wants. There's some other nutty stuff I left out. It's still possible he's just a dumb redneck but I to told him to go somewhere else.
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Old February 14, 2019, 00:44   #11
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Short barrel shotgun with no paperwork very bad deal. We lost one of the first Clll dealers here in state to having one from a client at his home.

He had a twin set of MG42's on an aircraft mount and he lost it, what a heartbreak.

p/s this guy was setup by his wife, they couldn't prove it at the time but later the ATF got her and boyfriend and shut them down.. AAA+++ work from the good guys
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Last edited by red rider; February 14, 2019 at 00:48. Reason: added p/s
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Old February 14, 2019, 20:26   #12
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LGS had a family bring in Dad's Korea War bring back M1 carbine to check out and repair as needed. It was it pretty good shape but definitely saw time out in the field. As we were logging it in noticed the second line on the receiver - cal .30 M2. Oops. Not full auto, only semi trigger group installed. Called ATF, told them what we had and why. They told the shop to strip it and they would be at the shop in a couple of days. They witnessed one of the guys burning the receiver into slag pile and bits. Shop owner located a replacement M1 receiver and put the rifle back together. Family got daddy's heirloom back.
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Old February 14, 2019, 22:59   #13
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LGS had a family bring in Dad's Korea War bring back M1 carbine to check out and repair as needed. It was it pretty good shape but definitely saw time out in the field. As we were logging it in noticed the second line on the receiver - cal .30 M2. Oops. Not full auto, only semi trigger group installed. Called ATF, told them what we had and why. They told the shop to strip it and they would be at the shop in a couple of days. They witnessed one of the guys burning the receiver into slag pile and bits. Shop owner located a replacement M1 receiver and put the rifle back together. Family got daddy's heirloom back.

Good story,I like how you were able to save a family heirloom. I have a couple heirlooms I would never want to lose, when I kick they will be passed on.

This poor dude Louis, had turned his house into a WWII museum and the garage was a very large vault, greedy woman he should have never married.

My BF came into state through him.
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Old February 15, 2019, 08:55   #14
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As we were logging it in noticed the second line on the receiver - cal .30 M2.
Yeah, had a guy at a gunshow with one in a fancy commercial stock. I advised him it was a machinegun. He thought I was full of shit. M1/M2 is a strange duck, because the only recevier difference is the marking.

For the OP. a sub-18" (shotgun) or sub 16" (rifle) barrel can be made legal by permanently attaching a muzzle device or extension by

blind pin
pin and weld
180 continuous weld
4 equidistant tack welds
1100F silver solder.

Remember, OAL is measured down the bore to the bolt face. So barrels like an AR-15, measuring on the outside of the barrel, including the barrel extension, will give you an incorrect dimension.

But as to this particular "customer". After 30 years in business, I've developed a "spider sense" as to people who I really don't want as customers. On occasion, I have ignored this sense and it has always bit me in the ass. If you get a feeling that something is not right, turn down the job. Some people are not good customers and will cost you far more in time and aggravation than they are worth. Know when to say no.
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Old February 16, 2019, 00:25   #15
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[/QUOTE]
But as to this particular "customer". After 30 years in business, I've developed a "spider sense" as to people who I really don't want as customers. On occasion, I have ignored this sense and it has always bit me in the ass. If you get a feeling that something is not right, turn down the job. Some people are not good customers and will cost you far more in time and aggravation than they are worth. Know when to say no.[/QUOTE]

GP that's very good advice. I have been researching how to apply for my SOT.
I am retired now and a little bored.

I have top marks using my intuition with people, it is in my DNA.
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Old February 17, 2019, 14:21   #16
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Originally Posted by tac-40 View Post
LGS had a family bring in Dad's Korea War bring back M1 carbine to check out and repair as needed. It was it pretty good shape but definitely saw time out in the field. As we were logging it in noticed the second line on the receiver - cal .30 M2. Oops. Not full auto, only semi trigger group installed. Called ATF, told them what we had and why. They told the shop to strip it and they would be at the shop in a couple of days. They witnessed one of the guys burning the receiver into slag pile and bits. Shop owner located a replacement M1 receiver and put the rifle back together. Family got daddy's heirloom back.
Yuppers...

tac, do you remember when all the Korean import carbines came in years ago ?

We ordered a pile of them
Ended up with a number of Inland M2 recievers in the mix
pretty funny
SOG took em' back when I called in and replaced them
now understand that was a damn felony for us to do
legally we should have surrendered them to the bureau, ate the loss

Understand almost all the Korean guns had been select fire, either built as M2s or converted
so yeah you have a Blue Sky gun fair chance it was select fire before export from Korea
Trigger groups were swapped out, most stocks even
thing is a fair number will exhibit selector rubs on the left receiver side

So yeah all those guns are technically illegally possessed under once a machinegun horseshit

Thing is M1s are very unique
as mentioned it's all about the markings

I pushed this years ago
requested a ruling on welding a cut M2 front on a M1 rear
not surprising they never replied
Same deal if a commericial maker started selling M2 marked semi carbines
that shit just wouldn't stand a Court test and DOJ knows that very well but back in the 60s that's how Treasury decided to class them as receivers were otherwise identical

This is the ONLY case where a mere marking creates a NFA device
dumb as a box of rocks
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Old February 19, 2019, 00:47   #17
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Yuppers...

tac, do you remember when all the Korean import carbines came in years ago ?

We ordered a pile of them
Ended up with a number of Inland M2 recievers in the mix
pretty funny
SOG took em' back when I called in and replaced them
now understand that was a damn felony for us to do
legally we should have surrendered them to the bureau, ate the loss

Understand almost all the Korean guns had been select fire, either built as M2s or converted
so yeah you have a Blue Sky gun fair chance it was select fire before export from Korea
Trigger groups were swapped out, most stocks even
thing is a fair number will exhibit selector rubs on the left receiver side

So yeah all those guns are technically illegally possessed under once a machinegun horseshit

Thing is M1s are very unique
as mentioned it's all about the markings

I pushed this years ago
requested a ruling on welding a cut M2 front on a M1 rear
not surprising they never replied
Same deal if a commericial maker started selling M2 marked semi carbines
that shit just wouldn't stand a Court test and DOJ knows that very well but back in the 60s that's how Treasury decided to class them as receivers were otherwise identical

This is the ONLY case where a mere marking creates a NFA device
dumb as a box of rocks
Simple fix. Weld a M2 front to a M1 rear, submit an example, and get a ATF tech branch letter saying it is an approved design. If they don't approve it you get a destroyed receiver back
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Old March 02, 2019, 08:49   #18
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Took a 0.20" piece of white polycarbonate rod and then using my 18" micrometer very carefully engraved thin lines at every 1/2" out to 18" then reindexed and have it marked to 36". Each engraved line filled with black epoxy so wouldn't have to always be remarking with a Sharpie or similar then used a indelible marker thats a bit more durable than a Sharpie with fine enough tip to write length of eachieving mark. Keep it in my truck most of the time so if at LGS working, hanging around or out scavaging can drop rod down barrel till taps bolt face and it's a no doubt legal or not.

I have seen more than a few AR 15's in gun shops that came up anywhere from 1/8" to 3/4" short that seller insisted pulled a tape me sure from muzzle to "end of barrel" and was legal. Many ask how they determine end of barrel? Some measure to front shoulder of barrel extension, some to rear shoulder of barrel extension, some measure to rear of barrel extension while some me sure to middle of extension and say workin to "average". When I drop my rod down and it measures 16.25" but muzzle device is not pinned or 15.8" and device is pinned it's amazing some of the remarks I get about not knowing how to measure a barrel. Others are appreciative and ask what the quickest and easiest fix to get legal would be.

I do a lot of AR upper work as an FFL is not required. I tell all who come to shop to bring upper only and leave lower at home till inspect it. About half ignore me, show up with illegal SBR and do not understand why don't let them in the door and tell them to take home and part the halves as originally instructed. If need I can slap upper on pistol lower till bring it up to length or give them instructions on what parts need to be swapped to make their AR a legal pistol as opposed to an illegal SBR. About 5% can't be convinced and have to be asked to leave the property before ever enter door and not come back if argue with me.

Have an issue now where a guy built quite a few 80% AR's, 1911's and Glocks and passed away. Family member wants guns but wants serial numbers. Me nor LGS really 100% sure how to take possesion of long enough to engrave serials then do 4473's on each. If a family member brings just the frame or lower can it be engraved then reassembled, safety checked and logged through their book? For now all are in possession of builders elderly wife and one of the kid wants them on 4473's or gone. Told him simplest solution is take apart, dispose of the lowers and frames then replace with say Andersons on the AR's then Caspians on the 1911's and aftermarket Glocks clone lowers on those. He says he doesn't feel competent to detail strip any of them.

Any tips on a legal way for an 07 FFL or private individual to install serial numbers without breaking the law? I believe I can buy legally as a FTF and then do s please if keep. But if buy, engrave or replace frames/lowers and sell back to owners son have purchased a gun for purpose of resale without a license. Need the cleanest way to do this on a budget as he is wanting to be cheap as well. Would prefer they sprout serials and then appear od 4473 without any other modifications. Advice?
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Old March 02, 2019, 11:16   #19
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Have an issue now where a guy built quite a few 80% AR's, 1911's and Glocks and passed away.......

Number 11-

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...aspdf/download


.........................
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Old March 02, 2019, 22:42   #20
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My first 1919 semi A4 I purchased from a FBI tech, that he had put together.

He had to put a serial number on the side plate then register it on form 4473, so
his FFL could transfer it to my FFL. Work out fine.

I was reading an article that they are trying to make it mandatory when we put a kit together it will need a serial put on it and register on form 4473.

I haven't followed the story to see how it's going.

Thanks for the link #11 works...
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Old March 03, 2019, 14:13   #21
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fed law does not require sn on anything, so just tell her to sell them as is. it is suggested in some atf opinion letters historically that guns should have a compliant commercial type serial number before entering chain of commerce, but there are literally millions of guns out there in chain of commerce that have no serial, most made pre '68. the statute regarding serials is under tax code, so does not apply outside of income generating activities.
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