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Old July 31, 2018, 20:36   #1
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Breaking News: ATF Is Classifying .50 Cal Bolt Action AR Uppers As Firearm

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...rs-as-firearm/

Did anyone see a comment period on this or knew that it was coming?
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Old August 01, 2018, 22:00   #2
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Looks like a 'slam-dunk' for the ATF to me . . .

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Old August 02, 2018, 05:54   #3
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Perhaps a back door approach to getting uppers of different calibers registered?
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Old August 02, 2018, 09:12   #4
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Perhaps a back door approach to getting uppers of different calibers registered?
Or all uppers to kick the legs from underneath the 80% movement.
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Old August 02, 2018, 20:19   #5
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This could start a run on AR upper receivers; and you can reason that AR bolt carrier assemblies could be next.

Stock up now?

Their reasoning is; that when you buy an AR10 you are actually buying two weapons; the upper and the lower.

WTF?

Cannot have the same #, on the upper and lower, right?

Every weapon has to be numbers matching?
The same upper and lower and the Bolt Carrier Groups?

I think FN and Steyr did that already.





They CANNOT go back and require every AR upper and BCG made since 1970, to be numbered to the lower. You cannot requrie every FAL owner to find his matching parts. They also cannot require bolt action AR's to come back to number the upper.
Keep building those bolt action uppers for your ghost gun lowers.

I think that I detect libs behind all of this crap, as the number of uppers out there, multiply the options for any one gun, ESPECIALLY THE LONG RANGE SNIPER UPPERS.

What about the new Ruger precision bolt action, that is actually a long range AR, in bolt action, sheeps clothing. Maybe you can retrofit an AR upper on it?

Like microstamping, this will be flushed down the toilet or only held to be for the 50 cal.

This is not going to pass muster in Congress
This is maddness.
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Old August 03, 2018, 13:43   #6
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Does this mean effective immediately? How is a 50 upper any different from a 22 upper, "firearm" wise?
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Old August 03, 2018, 15:17   #7
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Or to require each upper to have to be transfered through an ffl
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Old August 03, 2018, 18:52   #8
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Like a python squeezing the life out of something a little at a time ....
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Old August 03, 2018, 19:44   #9
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I don't think that Congress was even notified. Additionally, haven't seen it reported on the news either. Maybe they were hoping that it would just go under the radar.
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Old August 03, 2018, 20:09   #10
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I think uppers is uppers !

I doubt even the Supremes (Court) would differentiate between different calibers or upper configurations.
I'm thinking the convoluted Thompson Center ruling here.

Should this ruling stand, I think it is only a matter of time before ALL AR technology based uppers are required to be serial numbered and registered, or turned in to the Feds.

Another related nasty thing would be to classify ARs and maybe ALL semis as Class III weapons.
They did it to Street Sweeper shotguns without any real justification other than they LOOKED evil.
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Old August 03, 2018, 21:58   #11
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I wonder if atf would do this if it didn't apply to a 50 cal? Just imagine if our immigration or corruption laws were enforced with this much vigor.

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Old August 03, 2018, 22:08   #12
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It is impossible to enforce on AR uppers, except maybe for the factories that turn out 50 bmg uppers.

There are simply too many uppers out there today to register/find/chase down, and change legal horses midstream, by any sort of administrative order.

They are 40 years too late, on run of the mill AR uppers.


BUT, this is all unconstitutional.
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Old August 04, 2018, 09:27   #13
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It is impossible to enforce on AR uppers, except maybe for the factories that turn out 50 bmg uppers.

There are simply too many uppers out there today to register/find/chase down, and change legal horses midstream, by any sort of administrative order.

They are 40 years too late, on run of the mill AR uppers.


BUT, this is all unconstitutional.
exactly correct V
I figure for every lower out there, probably a dozen or more loose uppers receivers.
Heck the government itself alone has surplused tens of thousands of them over the decades
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Old August 08, 2018, 16:23   #14
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Originally Posted by V guy View Post
It is impossible to enforce on AR uppers, except maybe for the factories that turn out 50 bmg uppers.

There are simply too many uppers out there today to register/find/chase down, and change legal horses midstream, by any sort of administrative order.

They are 40 years too late, on run of the mill AR uppers.


BUT, this is all unconstitutional.
Since when did that stop the ATF for making new rulings?
Unconstitutional? They don't care.
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Old August 09, 2018, 09:28   #15
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I doubt they will try to reclassify semi auto AR uppers and fight that in the inevitable court case. At least under a RePube administration. The AR upper doesn't have the ability to cycle itself like a bolt action does.

They figured not enough people will care about this to spend the money to fight it in court.
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Old August 09, 2018, 10:16   #16
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I doubt they will try to reclassify semi auto AR uppers and fight that in the inevitable court case. At least under a RePube administration. The AR upper doesn't have the ability to cycle itself like a bolt action does.

They figured not enough people will care about this to spend the money to fight it in court.
Bolt actions cycle themselves?
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Old August 09, 2018, 10:18   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
It is impossible to enforce on AR uppers, except maybe for the factories that turn out 50 bmg uppers.

There are simply too many uppers out there today to register/find/chase down, and change legal horses midstream, by any sort of administrative order.

They are 40 years too late, on run of the mill AR uppers.


BUT, this is all unconstitutional.
From what I read, they are making the determination that once the upper becomes a bolt action, such as the SHTF .50 bolt action uppers, then the upper is classified as a the serial numbered portion of the weapon. It does not make much sense, but I think stock, as designed AR uppers are not on the chopping block.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:19   #18
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Bolt actions cycle themselves?
Poorly phrased, I know. But a barreled Remington 700 action has always been considered a firearm, so I'm surprised they took this long to reverse themselves on this one. Bottom line is that until the 1968 GCAs provisions that allow these goons the arbitrary power to limit 2nd Amendment rights this way is shot down by SCOTUS, we are stuck with it. Heller should be useable to defeat this "sporting purpose" bullshit in all gun control laws.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:24   #19
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Hmmmm...

How long will it be until someone designs and markets a semi-auto .50 BMG upper to fit an AR-15 lower?

By their definition, not a bolt action so not a firearm, right?
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Old August 09, 2018, 13:23   #20
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I doubt Barrett .50 calibre semi-autos could be classed as "bolt actions".
Functionally, the same critter as their much smaller brethren, I think.

If, somehow, Barrett semi uppers ARE classed as firearms, what about the other calibers Barrett builds based on the same uppers ?

This could get really, REALLY weird.
Especially in states that do or might restrict the number of "assault" type weapons you can own as every assembled .50 becomes TWO rifles, upper and lower receivers.
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Old August 09, 2018, 13:52   #21
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Originally Posted by Impala_Guy View Post
Poorly phrased, I know. But a barreled Remington 700 action has always been considered a firearm, so I'm surprised they took this long to reverse themselves on this one. Bottom line is that until the 1968 GCAs provisions that allow these goons the arbitrary power to limit 2nd Amendment rights this way is shot down by SCOTUS, we are stuck with it. Heller should be useable to defeat this "sporting purpose" bullshit in all gun control laws.
'Sall good but couldn't resist. Going to hell, yeah I know. Yes it is odd but what I'd like to see the courts come down on is the constitutionality of agencies like ATF failing to fulfil their legally mandated and obligatory responsibilities, namely to collect taxes and where constitutional, issue licenses on demand. They are NOT authorized to usurp the authority of the legislature by not issuing them based on any criteria, not to mention none at all. They do not get to decide what they will license and what they wont any more than a clerk at DMV taking your money for tag renewal gets to decide what mufflers and tailpipes are legal and which aren't.
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Old August 09, 2018, 14:16   #22
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OOPS !
Barrett .50 is NOT a good example as the lower does not separate like AR based versions do.

But, the idea that uppers AND lowers would both have to be registered and treated as separate firearms with the .50 calibre uppers for AR type lowers is still valid.

I would imagine .50 cal barrels by themselves might get added by the BATFE eventually. Potential destructive devices ?
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Old August 09, 2018, 14:20   #23
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OOPS !
Barrett .50 is NOT a good example as the lower does not separate like AR based versions do.

But, the idea that uppers AND lowers would both have to be registered and treated as separate firearms with the .50 calibre uppers for AR type lowers is still valid.

I would imagine .50 cal barrels by themselves might get added by the BATFE eventually. Potential destructive devices ?
The model 99 does. Although the upper is probably what's serialized on those. Have to look at mine to be sure.
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:06   #24
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Poorly phrased, I know. But a barreled Remington 700 action has always been considered a firearm, so I'm surprised they took this long to reverse themselves on this one. Bottom line is that until the 1968 GCAs provisions that allow these goons the arbitrary power to limit 2nd Amendment rights this way is shot down by SCOTUS, we are stuck with it. Heller should be useable to defeat this "sporting purpose" bullshit in all gun control laws.
One big difference between the SH upper and a Remington barreled upper is the SH bolt has a firing pin, but no striker... the hammer is in the lower. But the new hammer and springs are included with the upper. Is this the criteria the ATF is using to classify this upper as a firearm? SH offers their own dedicated lower that is serialized, so why put a serial on the upper?

It's just more liberal panic about .50 cal rifles. (Somebody could shoot down an airliner). Remember how Cali used that as an excuse to ban .50's?
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Old August 09, 2018, 21:52   #25
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:13   #26
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Okay, a few additional thoughts to stir in this hot wet mess:

ATF has unique ways of approaching interpetive matters
here's an example that happened in the 90s to a small FFL we knew in WI
this was in the heyday of dirt cheap Swede Mauser imports
anyways this guy starts stripping the actions out and installing them in synthetic stocks after drilling & tapping for mounts, did it for several years to grade II guns from Century that had bad furniture.

So during a compliance inspection the Officer takes note of this
next thing, he gets raided
see Tech branch decided he was actually "manufacturing"
this was based on his changing either the Form or Function of a Firearm as an 01 FFL. Well he fought it, lost then lost his license. After that IRS came after him for non payment of FETs, assessed penalties. Lost his home then the wife & kids, heard he ended up eating a gun.

On this upper deal some things to bear in mind...
1st off this is JUST a Warning letter informing manufactuers that ATFE May regard these .50 uppers as regulated items

2nd, we really don't know exactly what kind of upper was submitted to the bureau for potential importation that drove this decision but I am going to take a wild stab it this.

I "think" it was likely a magazine fed upper
see guys, here's the deal:
Once you move the magazine feed to the upper it radically changes the platform. The existing AR lower becomes little different than a FAL lower and the upper follows the FAL or G3 where the upper because it contains both the barrel AND magazine becomes a defacto regulated Firearm.

Now IF i am correct in my assumption it follows this interpetation will likely be expanded to other magazine fed uppers such as the 5.7mm ones fed by FNP90 helical mags and those .22LR units that use AM180 177 round drums, possibly even .50BMG single shot uppers but not any uppers that feed through the lower's magazine well
Understand, part of this is all about change of form & function
the rest though is particular conversion uppers incorporating their own magazine feed.

I really HATE to say this but I do understand how Tech branch came to this conclusion.

Little tidbit on this, the very first .50BMG uppers were being scrapped together by a smith out in North Dakota in the late 70s. Knew the guy fairly well. Those were the ones that had a bolt that screwed in the barrel. You had to break the rifle open and use a wrench to pull the bolt. He later sold production rights to some outfit in Wisconsin.

Thing is though those conversions used standard A1 pattern uppers. BATF had no issues with them but things have changed a great deal regarding conversion technology coupled with ease of finishing out 80% lowers
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Old August 11, 2018, 19:42   #27
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Okay, a few additional thoughts to stir in this hot wet mess:

Little tidbit on this, the very first .50BMG uppers were being scrapped together by a smith out in North Dakota in the late 70s. Knew the guy fairly well. Those were the ones that had a bolt that screwed in the barrel. You had to break the rifle open and use a wrench to pull the bolt. He later sold production rights to some outfit in Wisconsin.

Thing is though those conversions used standard A1 pattern uppers. BATF had no issues with them but things have changed a great deal regarding conversion technology coupled with ease of finishing out 80% lowers
Weren't those like the Watson's or something like that. I remember them! Must be getting old....
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Old August 12, 2018, 12:49   #28
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Weren't those like the Watson's or something like that. I remember them! Must be getting old....
Yes that sounds familiar. Awfully crude design often mounted with an M60 bipod as an option but the were the first and the only thing out there AR based.
Seem to recall it was State Arms that bought up manufacturing rights but I may be mispeaking...it was many years ago now.

There were also characters building single shot .50s based around M2 belt fed bolts and bits back then

past that one was either converting Boyes and other ATRs or building on a State Arms action which I recall came out in the late 70s. In the late 80s Bob Stewart brought out the Maddi Griffin guns I believe.

The Dakotas and Montana had quite a bit of this back in the day
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Old August 12, 2018, 23:07   #29
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Wait does this mean I can make a lower for an 50 BMG upper and only put the serial number on the upper?

I mean your only required to have one Serial number per firearm - right?

What about the 12" barreled uppers for AR Pistols - are those now SBR's? I mean you can drop it on a regular receiver...
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Old August 14, 2018, 16:53   #30
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My reply to those jokers of the Constitution= Do Not INFRINGE.

AND F@CK YOU ATF. this crap is Unconstitutional and therefore NOT worth reading about, Time Or Information wise.
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