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Old March 04, 2019, 20:15   #1
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Inch Lives Matter! Let Them LIVE!!

Please forgive my ignorance here but it appears the main stumbling block is the total lack of correct upper receivers. Is that the main issue holding these beautiful rifles back? Is that the only thing keeping these beauties from living in correct purity??

Is it just me or do these rifles deserve a chance? Come on guy's wheres that American entrepreneurial think outside the box overcome and adapt get er done spirit?

Ain't nobody got a CNC and some 4130?!!

Maybe it's impossible to get a hold of a set of blueprints, specs, or dimensional plans for the milling / machining process.

I guess I'll have to concede that it's just not profitable enough to produce some receivers.

As my kit screams for life---So sad...
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Old March 04, 2019, 20:25   #2
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Be patient. One day, DSA will make some again...maybe.
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Old March 04, 2019, 20:39   #3
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Perhaps, if everybody with a complete L1A1 kit ready to be built calls DSA asking for a upper receiver they’ll get the message and start another L1A1 receiver run.
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Old March 04, 2019, 20:48   #4
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Be patient. One day, DSA will make some again...maybe.
Not good enough. "Someday Never Comes" John Fogerty
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Old March 04, 2019, 20:53   #5
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Perhaps, if everybody with a complete L1A1 kit ready to be built calls DSA asking for a upper receiver they’ll get the message and start another L1A1 receiver run.
I did this today. But I think the best option is to do it on our own. DSA is apparently making too much money / not interested.
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Old March 04, 2019, 21:07   #6
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I agree

I think the L1A1 is the most attractive of all the FAL style rifles. I became interested in them back in the day when very good condition kits were available. I used one of those kits and an Entreprise Arms L1A1 receiver to build a beautiful British L1A1 rifle.

I also wonder why someone is not machining the receivers. Shops with CNC machines need to keep them running constantly in order to make money. Most shops are open to having a new product. My guess would be as you said, lack of blueprints. Creating a CAD program without any dimensions would be impossible. Look how many shops are machining AR receivers. Anyone can find the blueprints on the internet.

It was hard enough for the US to convert and establish the correct dimensions for the T48 project back in the 50's. I am sure that the companies with the dimensions will not want to give them up without a substantial about of money. It is sad.
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Old March 04, 2019, 21:14   #7
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It was hard enough for the US to convert and establish the correct dimensions for the T48 project back in the 50's.
Never heard this before. What did they have to convert? European inch to US inch?
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Old March 04, 2019, 21:30   #8
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European inch to US inch?
You DOG!!!!! You just made soda come out of my nose!!!!!

I too think the inch pattern rifles are the nicest looking of them all.
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Old March 04, 2019, 21:39   #9
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Never heard this before. What did they have to convert? European inch to US inch?
The U.S. converted the original FN blueprints. FN allowed the U.S. to manufacture the rifles without having to pay any royalties or fees. Harrington & Richardson ended up with the contract.
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:04   #10
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The U.S. converted the original FN blueprints. FN allowed the U.S. to manufacture the rifles without having to pay any royalties or fees. Harrington & Richardson ended up with the contract.
what did they convert?
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:15   #11
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:26   #12
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what did they convert?
The original Belgium FN FAL rifles were metric. It was a combined effort between America, Britain, and Canada (ABC Armies) to convert the metric rifles to American standards.
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:32   #13
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I wonder if the really big issue is that none of the potential manufacturers has the ability to offer a complete L1A1 rifle, as opposed to just a receiver. Nobody has the tooling (or enough of it) to make the parts, and the age of cheap L1A1 kits in bulk is loooong over.
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:39   #14
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Never heard this before. What did they have to convert? European inch to US inch?
Well there is precedent for issues...witness the debacle of H&R's attempt to reverse-engineer an MG42 in .30-06....
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Old March 04, 2019, 22:49   #15
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It just seems like it would be an easy thing for those that once produced them (LMT, ABNI) to fire up for a short run and see how they sell.
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Old March 04, 2019, 23:04   #16
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As long as the foreign firearms import ban exists, it will be up to us to manufacture these rifles along with any other firearms we want.
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Old March 04, 2019, 23:54   #17
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Yeah. Agreed. Why the hell won't FN in South Carolina just get of dey' asses and make FA Ls??? Please, nobody unless they deserve a solid bitchslappin' spout off about "how expensive it is to make one" and all that shit when they can sell one of their plastic pieces for$3K plus. Jarhead
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Old March 05, 2019, 10:26   #18
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The "difficulty" of manufacturing a rifle designed and toleranced in metric units by converting it to Imperial (inch) units is mostly a myth. This is why an L1a1 bolt can be used in a metric rifle so long as headspace is good. Usually threads will cause the main difficulties as there are standards and practices for both systems of measurement. The real differences lie in actual design elements that were slightly modified like the magazine beaks.

Since the Canadians were the first to adopt the rifle I'm curious....did the original FN metric rifles have magazines like the L1a1, did the Canadians design the original "inch" magazines, or did they switch over to them after the British adopted the SLR and forced commonality within the Commonwealth?
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Old March 05, 2019, 10:56   #19
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As you stated, the Canadians were the first to adapt the FAL. They designed the stronger and more reliable L1A1 style of magazine and magazine well.
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Old March 05, 2019, 13:48   #20
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As you stated, the Canadians were the first to adapt the FAL. They designed the stronger and more reliable L1A1 style of magazine and magazine well.
Interesting. So you are saying the Canadians changed the mag. Funny how they knew in advance that The L4a1 would have issues with the metric FAL mag that caused the British to need a bigger Lug and turn the base plate out. If only they had canadian mags they would not have ever had a problem.

The fact is the big lug and big base plate are direct results of the failings of the L4a1 and to be compatable The L1A1 was also changed to take the same mags as the L4a2. That change was made by the British and they were the only ones to field the 7.62 bren. Canada and Australia went with the L2A1.
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Old March 05, 2019, 14:08   #21
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Here is a good article on the T48 American rifle.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=1689
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Old March 05, 2019, 14:20   #22
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Here is a good article on the T48 American rifle.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=1689

Here is a quote from the article


The U.S. FAL, the T48, adopted the Canadian improved magazine design that included a reinforced magazine lip. This modification made to all inch-pattern FAL rifle magazines, made the magazine non-interchangeable with metric FAL rifles


Now show me a T48 with an inch mag
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Old March 05, 2019, 14:58   #23
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I am not trying to be rude but the quote you presented supports that the T48 was an inch pattern design. You may have read it too quickly. Read it slowly a few times.
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Old March 05, 2019, 15:43   #24
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I am not trying to be rude but the quote you presented supports that the T48 was an inch pattern design. You may have read it too quickly. Read it slowly a few times.
I will repeat. Show me a T48 with an inch mag.

Every T48 I have seen in person or in pictures had a metric mag and was not cut for inch mags. Go ahead prove me wrong it will only take 1 picture.
The inch features not including exterior profiling were the mag, Sand cuts and a folding charging handle. Can you name 1 of these features The T48 had?
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Old March 05, 2019, 16:15   #25
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My intentions are not to prove anyone wrong. I joined this forum only a short time ago and have posted just a few times. I joined to share information and knowledge and hopefully learn something.

I do a lot of reading and studying on things that I am interested in. I am only trying to share what I have learned about these rifles. Obviously we are in a disagreement about certain details. I will do some research to see what I can find out. If I am wrong about something, I have no problem admitting to it. It causes me to learn something new.
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Old March 05, 2019, 16:59   #26
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Well back to the OP's question. Sure, someone could scan a real L1A1 receiver (which are available here in the States), plug the scan into a CAD program and come up with a design within specs. But, how expensive would those receivers have to be for the company to recoup their expenses? Quite a bit I would hazard a guess. Then you have the actual cost of materials, machining, and heat treatment. The selling price just went up some more.

Hell, DSA, Coonan, Entreprise, Hesse, Century, Armscorp, and some others I might have missed, went an alternative route. They actually cast their receivers. Some of them were good designs, some hit or miss, and some just plain crappy. And it seemed that each run of castings had different issues than the previous runs. This inconsistency of the product resulted in rifles worth more for their parts than the actual completed rifle.

I joined the FALFiles almost 20 years ago, and even back then this questions was asked on a frequent basis. And yet no one has successfully created a usable receiver to offer for sale as an alternative to the current suppliers.So the problems must outweigh the chance of profits.
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Old March 05, 2019, 17:20   #27
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Its the production cost thats the biggest hurdle in the time it takes me to produce 1 L1A1 receiver I could have produced 250 semi auto uzi bolts at $60 each that makes that 1 receiver worth $15000
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Old March 05, 2019, 19:15   #28
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Ain't nobody got a CNC and some 4130?!!
Takes a bit more than that....
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Old March 05, 2019, 19:29   #29
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Well there is precedent for issues...witness the debacle of H&R's attempt to reverse-engineer an MG42 in .30-06....
That was Saginaw Streering Gear Division of GM that did that. And, a lot of the problems were due to the Army trying to back down the rate of fire to 550 rpm, and a incomplete understanding of what the buffer does in an MG-34 and MG42...they though it was there to absorb energy from the bolt at the end of its stroke.

And, it was High Standard that got the contract to convert the FN drawing to US standard. Which was more that just dividing all the numbers by 25.4, BTW. The nominal dimensions and the tolerances have to be changed to realistic multiples of one- or ten-thousands of an inch.

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I will repeat. Show me a T48 with an inch mag.

Every T48 I have seen in person or in pictures had a metric mag and was not cut for inch mags. Go ahead prove me wrong it will only take 1 picture.
The inch features not including exterior profiling were the mag, Sand cuts and a folding charging handle. Can you name 1 of these features The T48 had?
And, the T48 used the heavier beak of the L1A1, but the floor plate is the "metric" pattern, so when installed in the rifle they look "metric".

One picture:

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Old March 05, 2019, 19:56   #30
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Oh, and there are some minor difference between a T48 and any other "Inch" FAL. The main noticeable difference is the two cartridge guide pins at the front of the receiver either side of the piston, (one visible in the first image below), and the charging handle rails are different from all FAL variants on some later production (second image), but some had more typical metric handles (third image).



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Old March 05, 2019, 20:06   #31
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And, the T48 used the heavier beak of the L1A1, but the floor plate is the "metric" pattern, so when installed in the rifle they look "metric".
Ok I will play along. Here is 2 lugs 1 appears in your old picture and one is Inch pattern



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Old March 05, 2019, 20:25   #32
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Oh, and even the FN produced T48 used the "Inch" type magazine:
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Old March 05, 2019, 20:27   #33
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Well back to the OP's question. Sure, someone could scan a real L1A1 receiver (which are available here in the States), plug the scan into a CAD program and come up with a design within specs. But, how expensive would those receivers have to be for the company to recoup their expenses? Quite a bit I would hazard a guess. Then you have the actual cost of materials, machining, and heat treatment. The selling price just went up some more.

Hell, DSA, Coonan, Entreprise, Hesse, Century, Armscorp, and some others I might have missed, went an alternative route. They actually cast their receivers. Some of them were good designs, some hit or miss, and some just plain crappy. And it seemed that each run of castings had different issues than the previous runs. This inconsistency of the product resulted in rifles worth more for their parts than the actual completed rifle.

I joined the FALFiles almost 20 years ago, and even back then this questions was asked on a frequent basis. And yet no one has successfully created a usable receiver to offer for sale as an alternative to the current suppliers.So the problems must outweigh the chance of profits.
There it is right there. It's all about the money, isn't it? And that has outstripped and squashed the love for the rifle. What a shame!

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Its the production cost thats the biggest hurdle in the time it takes me to produce 1 L1A1 receiver I could have produced 250 semi auto uzi bolts at $60 each that makes that 1 receiver worth $15000
I think we should band together and let those previous manufacturers know what we want.
And after we get the cold shoulder we should step back and take a long hard look at these so called suppliers as they sit on the dimensional plans that are collecting dust, across the shop from an idle CNC milling machine, because there's just not enough profit!!
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Old March 05, 2019, 20:49   #34
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Takes a bit more than that....
Obviously it takes a WHOLE LOT MORE than that. An insurmountable amount, to be sure. It is--as it were--an IMPOSSIBLE feat it seems.

What it takes is some determined individual('s) with a purist love for the weapon!
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Old March 05, 2019, 21:14   #35
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Ok I will play along. Here is 2 lugs 1 appears in your old picture and one is Inch pattern



See the post #32.

The tiny "metric" beak would be hidden in that view.
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Old March 05, 2019, 21:30   #36
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Here is a picture of a pre-T48 FN made FAL*, note the relative size of the beak.


I am sure you have seen these:


The T48 beak is not as beefy as the L1A1, but definitely not compatible with the small cut in a metric receiver,
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* As noted by:

- The early straight grip without the folding trigger guard,
- The early slotted flash hider,
- No charger loading guide on the cover,
- and the fact that the picture is not labeled "T48".

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Old March 05, 2019, 21:46   #37
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The T48 beak is not as beefy as the L1A1, but definitely not compatible with the small cut in a metric receiver,
.


Page 138 Of R. Blake Steven's "North American FALs" offers some side-by-side comparisons of FN, T48(H&R) and C1A1 mags. According to those pics, the T48 mag, as you illustrate, has a beak not as pronounced as the Canadian mag, but it is definitely different than the stamped FN beak.
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Old March 05, 2019, 21:52   #38
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See the post #32.

The tiny "metric" beak would be hidden in that view.


one is inch one is not

Seems while I was posting you reverted and agree the T48 was not cut for inch mags and even provided photo proof.

(there are no metric mags in my pictures) and sorry for the poor picture quality its the best I can do with an old phone and no back lighting
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Old March 06, 2019, 01:21   #39
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The metric to inch doesn't seem much of a hurtle. The screw thread pitch is basically inch already. In fact the butt plate screw is the same thread as M16s and the grip stud is the same thread pitch as M16 grip screws too. The carry handle nut and barrel threads are the same as metrics.
ABNI and LMT could restart inch receiver production for less $ than someone starting from scratch. Another option is converting metric type IIIs. It's been done and Mark-ARS has been playing with converting new Imbels to Brit inch.
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Old March 07, 2019, 17:24   #40
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Early inch pattern magazine (second from the left)

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Old March 07, 2019, 17:47   #41
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I am sure you have seen these:


The T48 beak is not as beefy as the L1A1, but definitely not compatible with the small cut in a metric receiver.....

Sure am glad I stopped by Rav's table that day....

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Old March 10, 2019, 01:08   #42
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The question is. Do they work in either rifle, and feed reliably? I bet not in metrics. Inch maybe. In reality the T48 mags don't appear to be either. This and other T48 features look like attempts to torpedo the FAL trials by generals who were pulling for the T44 (M14). The arctic trigger guard/pistol grip and stripper clip top cover are in this category. The fix was in.
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Old March 12, 2019, 13:20   #43
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Oh, and there are some minor difference between a T48 and any other "Inch" FAL. The main noticeable difference is the two cartridge guide pins at the front of the receiver either side of the piston, (one visible in the first image below), and the charging handle rails are different from all FAL variants on some later production (second image), but some had more typical metric handles (third image).



Interdasting! I have never soon a close-up like that or seen "cartridge pin guides". I presume that would be to help the rounds load when using the stripper clip top cover and that the one pic is a cut-away - thus only one pin showing. Basic training at CFB Cornwallis was 1983 (forgive me if I have forgotten and got this wrong), but I think we had stripper clip dust covers but I don't recall any "guide pins". Did Canada delete them from the C1/C1A1 rifles? I also don't ever remember being asked to load rounds into the rifle from the top as we were always given a loaded mag when at the range.
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Old March 13, 2019, 18:56   #44
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Interdasting! I have never soon a close-up like that or seen "cartridge pin guides". I presume that would be to help the rounds load when using the stripper clip top cover and that the one pic is a cut-away - thus only one pin showing. Basic training at CFB Cornwallis was 1983 (forgive me if I have forgotten and got this wrong), but I think we had stripper clip dust covers but I don't recall any "guide pins". Did Canada delete them from the C1/C1A1 rifles? I also don't ever remember being asked to load rounds into the rifle from the top as we were always given a loaded mag when at the range.
The Canadians seemed to have found a front bullet guide not all that necessary, and deleted the pins after the prototypes. Some of the British prototype also had the front pins and stripper clip guides before dropping the whole stripper clip requirement.

The T48s made by H&R were manufactured using many of the Canadian drawings, so they are similar to the Canadian prototypes in many respects.
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Old March 14, 2019, 08:44   #45
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I have an extra L1 upper or maybe two can part with including a new in wrapper forged DSA from their last run. Am finally realizing not going to get all the projects done and what point 8s having more than a half dozen FAL's when M14/M1a's are my preferred MBR's with AR 10's beginning to become more desirable shooters due to ease of screwing together a good shooter if buy good barrels. If really itching for an inch upper PM me.
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Old March 14, 2019, 22:22   #46
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Originally Posted by autoloadga View Post
The original Belgium FN FAL rifles were metric. It was a combined effort between America, Britain, and Canada (ABC Armies) to convert the metric rifles to American standards.
.......sort of....

The US had the T48 in competition with the T44 and yes it was a, "inch" rifle of sorts.

In common usage when we are referring to inch pattern rifles in terms of "ABC" the A = Australia (not America). Totally separate programs/efforts.
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You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
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Old March 14, 2019, 22:32   #47
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Originally Posted by ActionYobbo View Post
That change was made by the British and they were the only ones to field the 7.62 bren. Canada and Australia went with the L2A1.
....... kinda, you know mate that we used a metric shit tonne of L4s here as well, we bought converted British guns (as the L4 was based on the Mk3, and perhaps Mk2 and LGW only made Mk1s with updates) but LGW made numerous spares for them over the period they were in use (to include barrels/magazines and other parts). The Bren arguably saw more use than the L2 as most hated the later and it was quickly relegated to ASAs/Reserves.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
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Old March 15, 2019, 07:50   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
.......sort of....

The US had the T48 in competition with the T44 and yes it was a, "inch" rifle of sorts.

In common usage when we are referring to inch pattern rifles in terms of "ABC" the A = Australia (not America). Totally separate programs/efforts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABCANZ_Armies
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Old March 15, 2019, 17:38   #49
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Oh dear...OK yes, but as a student of Commonwealth Pattern Rifles ABC is Australia - Britian - Canada. This included a RSC, (rifle steering committee) to ensure that production standards/design operation etc etc allowed each of the THREE participating nations products to be used with those of the others. While each may have some individual design differences (rear sights and top covers for example) they were nonetheless interchangeable with the others. "America" was NOT part of this, hence me saying..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy the Aussie View Post
In common usage when we are referring to inch pattern rifles in terms of "ABC" the A = Australia (not America). Totally separate programs/efforts.
The development of the Commonwealth Pattern Rifles and the US T48 were not officially linked.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GOVT1911
You could do some searching and find a nice TLC and do the same thing, still saving a bunch of $$ and end up with a nice, comfortable CAPABLE rig...
(Jiminy Christmas, did I just recommend a 'yota?!!??)
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Old March 15, 2019, 18:35   #50
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Try this one. I also can recommend some books if you are interested.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=1689
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