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Old December 02, 2018, 17:01   #1
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Getting the most accuracy out of your autocharger.

I have seen recently a number of gents working up accuracy powder charges and thought I would add one of my procedures for getting my SD into the single digits and still using an autocharger.
This would be used for precision loading to get the most out of your gear.

I set the auto drop to a couple of .1s short of my destination load then hand trickle until the digit just stabilizes on the desired charge. This way I know my loads are consistent to within a kernel or two and my SD, if all else is equal, will be in the single digits.

Works wonders over generic loading.
Just ran a couple hundred 6.5 Creedmoor using Lapua brass, 205M primers and 35gr of Varget pushing a 140 gr Berger Hybrid Target bullet.



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Old December 02, 2018, 18:26   #2
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Call me OCD but that's been my practice from the start. Nice!
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Old December 02, 2018, 19:34   #3
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glad I am not the only one.
Been doing it that way myself for years.
Only reason I posted this was I had a visitor that has been loading like me for over 50 years and he said I ought to show others.
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Old December 02, 2018, 22:56   #4
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I went with a digital scale that shows me 2/100th of a grain weighing powder charges.
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Old December 02, 2018, 23:55   #5
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Try a baffle, works wonders....

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/11...-powder-baffle
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Old December 03, 2018, 00:21   #6
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Good to see others worry about this also. I've been throwing through a regular measure a little short then topping off for a while. It pays off.
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Old December 03, 2018, 05:41   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxxas View Post
Used one in the old Uniflow for generic loads.
Don't use one of those much anymore. Since I retired it's fun to spend more time loading.
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Old December 03, 2018, 05:46   #8
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Good to see others worry about this also. I've been throwing through a regular measure a little short then topping off for a while. It pays off.
Used an Ohaus beam for about a million years along with a uniflow for the rough weigh then top off on the scale.
The digital is just more fun for this old fart.
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Old December 03, 2018, 17:10   #9
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that looks like the latest and greatest version of my AMT Autoscale

friends thought me crazy laying out the $$$$$$ way back then .......

but when they saw how easy it was to weigh out IMR powders (log type) then it was a different story
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Old December 05, 2018, 06:45   #10
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The tenths indicator fell off my ancient RCBS 10 10 so I bought a small digital scale, I think frankford arsenal. Love it.
Have always trickled charges up to weight.

RCBS says send the 10 10 scale back and they'll fix it. I will but I'm hooked on the digital scale now.

Sure do like those aluminum loading blocks you got there Art.
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Old December 05, 2018, 13:15   #11
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The tenths indicator fell off my ancient RCBS 10 10 so I bought a small digital scale, I think frankford arsenal. Love it.
Have always trickled charges up to weight.

RCBS says send the 10 10 scale back and they'll fix it. I will but I'm hooked on the digital scale now.

Sure do like those aluminum loading blocks you got there Art.

yeah, they are nice, and they do not melt like plastic blocks do when you spray lube on the cases

but I would think they should be anodized, just as a precaution

even if they are not anodized they should be real easy to clean any kind of chemicals off of them
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Old December 05, 2018, 14:00   #12
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yeah, they are nice, and they do not melt like plastic blocks do when you spray lube on the cases

but I would think they should be anodized, just as a precaution

even if they are not anodized they should be real easy to clean any kind of chemicals off of them

About once a year I drop them in the ultrasonic parts cleaner and they come out sparkling new. One of the best additions to the bench I ever made.
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Old December 05, 2018, 17:52   #13
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I do like the aluminum blocks too. Iíve got some made out of hardwood that are about 40 years old, but yours are way more cooler than mine.

Iíve found my Lyman DPS1200 to be very consistent. I donít use my trickle dispenser but I do double check the weight against another digital scale. Iíve never had my initial charge off but Iím also not doing as much precision reloading as you are.
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Old December 05, 2018, 20:36   #14
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The old guy I learned reloading from always used a beam. I got him an auto for Xmas 10 years ago and he was setup with the trickler on day one. When I went auto I did the same, I had got myself the same setup for MY Xmas ! I thought everybody did it that way for accuracy .
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Old December 06, 2018, 22:11   #15
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I have an auto-trickler and several methods of dropping precision powder charges. If using a long grain powder use the auto-trickler and will sometimes do the same and drop last tenth or so. If using a powder that meters well like to drop a charge in pan then use a trickler to drop final tenth or so but on a $3,000 scientific scale.

Auto-trickler in background:



Mettler PM4000 was a $3,000 scale and luckily found the module to switch it to grains before they kind of disappeared. Jewelry industry snaps up the modules quickly when come to market. With the grain module it's accurate to 0.00134 grains. Find myself using a pair of tweezers to remove different kernels on long grain extruded powders till find the right grain that tells me scale is dead in my charge.



Remember when adding one or two kernels as when fine trickling many scales will ignore a few assuming it is magnetic creep so algorithm will keep it from showing the weight change accurately.

https://www.peregrinemonolithics.com...cale-accuracy/
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Old December 07, 2018, 06:21   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Crusher View Post
The old guy I learned reloading from always used a beam. I got him an auto for Xmas 10 years ago and he was setup with the trickler on day one. When I went auto I did the same, I had got myself the same setup for MY Xmas ! I thought everybody did it that way for accuracy .
This is exactly why I started the thread.
There are many folks loading that can learn from things we have experienced and just never been introduced to.
Sharing information between us is what makes a community.
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Old December 07, 2018, 12:19   #17
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Is that case just happy to see you?
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Old December 07, 2018, 12:29   #18
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Art, interesting info!

My personal test was to load rounds for a 3 relay 600 yard match, 15 rounds each relay. I loaded one batch with all new LC brass, weighed the charges and brass, chamfered the priming pockets and trimmed/chamfered the necks, did everything I could to ensure uniformity, etc. The other 2 batches I just grabbed whatever once or twice fired LC cases I had next, used my Lee Perfect powder measure, and just loaded them. Same basic load, 24.7 grains of RL15 under a 75 Amax.

I shot the match first with my unprepped brass, then the prepped brass, and then again with unprepped.

Guess what batch shot the best? Not the special prepped one, I think both my other 2 batches shot better by 3-5 points.

Not real scientific, but it surely puzzled me!

I was going to repeat the test but never got around to it.
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Old December 07, 2018, 12:39   #19
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Sometimes I think it's all smoke and mirrors.
I have tried so many solutions to the problems that I tend to create myself.
After years of experimenting with most all the different fancy brass, I have come to the conclusion that, at least for me, the European surplus berdan primed stuff works the best. This is the brass many of us have thrown away because we have been brain washed into thinking that it is not reloadable.

Well, my favorite precision .308 loads use DAG berdan brass. It seems to be usable for many more loadings than boxer with Federal being the worst of the litter. Primer pockets on Fed are good for no more than 3 or possibly 4 loads if they are light. DAG holds up for at least if not more than twice that. The accuracy of the berdan appears to be more consistent. Who would ever have thunk it?
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Old December 07, 2018, 16:09   #20
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Is that case just happy to see you?
It is from a batch of 308 was forming down to 22-250. Proper parent case for the 22-250 is the 250-3000 Savage but rim size is the same and using proper forming dies can almost force a 308 case into all proper dimensions for 22-250 and close enough that they work fine. Goal was to get thickest necks possible and reduce case capacity. I left them long through the process to prove that with proper annealing could mash a case way beyond what many believe.

Have a 22-250 built for a specific 100 yard match where most were using 223. 223 seems to settle down and shoot better at 100 yards unless it's windy but if wind kicks up then the speed of the 22-250 can add an advamtage. Goal was thicker case wall to reduce internal capacity and necks that were so thick with a good chamber cast of rifle, measuring projectiles can outside ream and inside turn each neck for proper bullet tension and minimum clearance in throat of chamber so round never bound but was just a couple thousandths or so from being same size thus case neck sealed against chamber almost instantly when primer ignited and pressure began to increase. Every bullet releases with same tension and every case seals almost identicallly during pressure curve.

Then reduced case capacity allowed me to use less powder without stepping to far out of burn and bulk ratios the 22-250 likes. Thus had a lower velocity 22-250 round than normal but was still quite a bit quicker than a 223. Was going through as many as 500 cases to come up with 50 that matched as closely as possible with lower case capacity of water/powder. Used them to develop a 100 yard load to shoot against 223's whether wind was still or not. The match was a timed event firing ten rounds so didn't have the opportunity to always wait for wind flags to always be in agreement with previous shots. Thus any day had any inconsistency in wind speed got a slight advantage due to less time of flight along with other tricks.

Gave me extra room to thread primer pockets then screw in brass tube which was also soldered with that carried flash of primer to front of case so powder burnt from bullet to rear of case rather than from rear of case to front. The flash tubes took up additional space as well and the extra thickness of the 308 case head gave me more material to thread. Igniting the powder at front of case decreases standard deviation (proven by Skinner and others) and is believed to keep more heat in the case thus reducing throat wear from flame cutting. At the time could make about five front ignition cases per day without working overtime. Great winter rain day project if want to try.

Consistent ignition leads to more consistent accuracy which I find as well using Berdan cases as Art seems to do as well. Has to be a more consistent ignition of powder when flame does not have to travel around the anvil of the primer which blocks the flash hole. (Why some use larger flash holes for boxer cases) no anvil in the Berdan primer so flash doesn't have to travel around the anvil and goes through the two smaller holes in a straight path. That is why Art is seeing a lower standard deviation with good Berdan cases and why I am very protective of my Berdan primer supply. I also use them for match quality loads at times. By time thicken the case body and add my flash tube case capacity goes down but is still fair amount more than 223.

Having necks that are both inside reamed and outside turned till all dimensions are the same then bullets release with same tension, necks seal against chamber wall almost instantly due to minimal clearance and lighting the powder column from front gives me lower deviation, more consistent burn and keeps the throat and bore cooler so it's closer to same temperature from round one to round ten. Huge amount of work for a simple little local 100 yard match but I really enjoy doing such projects and if have half a day in prepping then loading a single case so be it. Won't even go into what my smith did to the rifle as it was a production class match and all parts had to be what shipped from factory and appear to be just like removed from box but he had the thing for almost six months shipping ices and parts all around the country before putting all back together and refinishing to match a factory rifle.

It takes a lot of experimentation with flash tube length to get proper burn and pressure curve. If tube is too long then primer force starts bullet moving instead of powder column ignition. If pressure curve is too low then neck doesn't seal properly but by fitting necks to chamber without distorting projectiles it allows for slightly longer tube. Takes a ton of head scratching, study of ballistics and powder burn characteristics plus a whole bunch of experimenting. Luckily when mash 500 cases will get about four to six groups of 50 with matching internal capacity so can keep each group segregated once measure capacity and let the small groups eventually happen. I am the same guy that fixes inconstincies in match bullets then groups by weight before they are loaded also. When you start using superglue to help keep primers from backing out on hot loads it's another sign of being OCD, obsessive compulsive and all those other behaviour oddities as well.

Edit to add photos. This is a typically modified case with flashtube:



These were made commercially in the 1970's at rumoured initial request of Elmer Keith, P.O. Ackley or another well known shooter/writer. They were initially made for a 30-06 Duplex ammunition loading project. Would love to find someone who would make me a hundred or so as would simplify the process.

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Old December 08, 2018, 11:56   #21
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Actually, the front ignition 'flash tube' cartridge was the brain child of R.E. Gibbs and the Gibbs line of rifles and cartridges in the 50's..
Unless he copied it from somebody earlier too..In any case, it was a gimic that didnt prove worth popcorn burp in the long run.
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Old December 08, 2018, 18:53   #22
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Actually, the front ignition 'flash tube' cartridge was the brain child of R.E. Gibbs and the Gibbs line of rifles and cartridges in the 50's..
Unless he copied it from somebody earlier too..In any case, it was a gimic that didnt prove worth popcorn burp in the long run.
Results vary. I have had some really good luck using flash tubes and other times accuracy went backwards. Depends on a lot of variables.
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Old December 09, 2018, 06:54   #23
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Results vary. I have had some really good luck using flash tubes and other times accuracy went backwards. Depends on a lot of variables.
Watch your ass...
Besides Rocky Gibbs work, it was also well tested by some big names,,,, like the US Ordnance Dept and Remington ammo, besides a slew of gun experimenters, writers and just plain old gun fags.
At the end of the day, it developed no gain in velocity or accuracy and was finally abandoned because of a tendency to develop erratic pressures.
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Old December 09, 2018, 16:49   #24
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I’m not going out to buy an auto charger to drop short charges in a pan so I can trickle up to my desired precision weight...

My Lyman 55 powder measure has been doing that faster than any auto charger and working fine since the 1960s. ;-)
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Old December 09, 2018, 17:14   #25
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Rather than buying one, you can easily make these out of sheet aluminum and tin snips. I'm pretty sure the baffle in my dad's powder trickler still has the "Coors" logo on it.

The only issue I have with measuring powder drops to the 0.1 grain is the time it takes to trickle it out. When I reload, I can crank out some ammo pretty quickly and usually the only delay is the Lyman autocharger I use.
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Old Yesterday, 00:27   #26
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Watch your ass...
Besides Rocky Gibbs work, it was also well tested by some big names,,,, like the US Ordnance Dept and Remington ammo, besides a slew of gun experimenters, writers and just plain old gun fags.
At the end of the day, it developed no gain in velocity or accuracy and was finally abandoned because of a tendency to develop erratic pressures.
I was trying to reduce Standard Deviation, not increase velocity. Why formed cases with thicker heads and walls plus addition of tubes which lost measurable powder capacity. This was a very specific project for using a 22-250 bolt rifle to shoot against 223 bolt rifles at 100 yards on paper targets when wind was gusting. Just had to be faster than the 223's, not max 22-250 velocity. The three years that informal club match ran my production class 22-250 won most days wind was blustery and shot top five if not top three when wind was still. Rule was 22 caliber production rifle with no visual customization though everyone had modified triggers, hand lapped bolts and more but all rifles looked like they shipped from factory. If wind was totally still was an old geezer who always showed up with a 22 Hornet and spanked the group.
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