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Old January 12, 2018, 07:02   #1
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Franklin Armory Reformation 11.5" Non NFA comming soon

Very interesting. I'm not sure how they pulled this rabbit out a hat, but I guess Franklin Armory will be giving out details soon:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...o-sbr-11-5-ar/


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Old January 12, 2018, 07:10   #2
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Old January 13, 2018, 09:19   #3
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So it's an air rifle.......no caliber mentioned that's sneaky.....
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Old January 13, 2018, 09:23   #4
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Has to be a pistol.
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Old January 13, 2018, 09:38   #5
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Iam going with smooth bore, no 5.56, 223 shot loads that i know of

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Old January 13, 2018, 09:57   #6
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.410 shotgun? Like this:

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Old January 13, 2018, 12:20   #7
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.410 shotgun? Like this:

Maybe.....this would allow the use of a 'bullet' but would
rule of anything beyond 100 yds
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Old January 13, 2018, 12:30   #8
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What's the appeal here? Haven't pistol braces basically made this a non issue?
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Old January 13, 2018, 13:56   #9
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What's the appeal here? Haven't pistol braces basically made this a non issue?
my random unsolicited theory...

It was done out of principle.

Stuff like this muddles the water even further, making SBR issue almost moot by default. Because You are correct, pistol bracee have basically made this a non-issue. But no harm in further making it a non-issue.
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Old January 14, 2018, 20:45   #10
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Guess this is getting more speculation than the JFK assassination:

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Old January 14, 2018, 22:01   #11
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Hmm... well, if the rifle fired during the release of the trigger, rather than pulling the trigger, I'm not personally interested.

The concept is silly and counter-intuitive considering that it would be employed on an SBR type platform.... which is designed to be deployed in CQB type environments. Actually, that is down right scarey from a tactical standpoint.

Hopefully, there is more to this patent than the above.
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Old January 14, 2018, 23:22   #12
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Lightbulb

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Originally Posted by lockjaw View Post
Hmm... well, if the rifle fired during the release of the trigger, rather than pulling the trigger, I'm not personally interested.

The concept is silly and counter-intuitive considering that it would be employed on an SBR type platform.... which is designed to be deployed in CQB type environments. Actually, that is down right scarey from a tactical standpoint.

Hopefully, there is more to this patent than the above.
agreed, 'fire on release' only, would be bad for muscle memory and other aspects. And just simply, more Negatives - then Positives, as a concept.


Time will tell...
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Old January 15, 2018, 16:13   #13
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I believe it’s simething to do with the trigger as mentioned above . M personally not interested in it, BUT I love seeing “loopholes” like this being found and utilized. Maybe this will help show some others that SBR laws are silly.
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Old January 16, 2018, 10:38   #14
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Hmm... well, if the rifle fired during the release of the trigger, rather than pulling the trigger, I'm not personally interested.

The concept is silly and counter-intuitive considering that it would be employed on an SBR type platform.... which is designed to be deployed in CQB type environments. Actually, that is down right scarey from a tactical standpoint.

Hopefully, there is more to this patent than the above.
Three position safety. #1 Safe, #2 Single, #3, Binary. Have binary triggers in nine rifles and at least five put back for future use or resell. Know guys who have made their living with M4's and varients when if a bogey didn't drop DRT it was a problem. Reason 458 SOCOM was developed for secial ops in Somolia and 6.8 for use in war on terrorists. Sometimes need to know a guy is anchored before moving to next bad guy.

I know you say that you have been there and done that. I have not but have several very close climbing partners on SEAL Teams and Delta Force. In fast CQB tell me general rule with a 5.56 AR except for head shots put two rounds in each aggressor then move on. With 6.8 or 458 one shot and engage next. Missions where only resupply might be from another friendly or normal chain of supply have to carry a 5.56 as that's the ammo that a Marine, Ranger, or regular Army guy is going to throw over to you when your load out runs low.

Also have another few hundred yards effective accurate range with 5.56 in field. In an insertion with quick extraction urban mission they often choose the 6.8 for more efficient first shot kills. Have let two play with my binary rifles and in just a matter of minutes they were smiling as each touch of trigger put a double tap on target.

I do not have binary triggers in any non standard larger caliber AR's. My wife's pair of 5.7×28's and most of my 5.56 SBR's have binary triggers and it's a nice feature once you learn it's use. With 6.8 don't need double taps so they don't get them. If need suppressive fire even my wife can flip to binary and run a pile of rounds down range accurately with binary trigger.

How much time do you have on binary systems? It's really not much different than three shot burst fire control system. I seldom use them for barrel smoking mag dumps but if need can run 450 rpm mag dump and in single fire mode they are very nice and crisp four pound triggers. I dislike overly expensive triggers. It's why I have very few Geissele two stage triggers and similar anymore. Can tune a single stage trigger to under 3 pounds with no creep or travel.

Yes, still train on doing double taps using trigger control on standard triggers but the binary are fine triggers if know how to use them. They are not dangerous as after squeeze of shot in binary and decide don't want a second round to fire on trigger release just flip safety to single or safe and rifle doesn't fire when release trigger. If zombies come in my house while wife is alone she will automatically flip either a 5.56 or 5.7 (whichever is closest) into binary mode and make sure each zombie has two sucking chest wounds as transitions without having to concentrate as hard on double tapping. It's a fine system if used correctly.
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Old January 16, 2018, 10:54   #15
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It's probably just a 410 shotgun.
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Old January 16, 2018, 14:00   #16
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Should probably start a pool on how soon ATF reverses this decision.


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Old January 16, 2018, 15:08   #17
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just keep popcorn and cold beverages close and ready ........
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Old January 16, 2018, 17:21   #18
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The exception has nothing to do with triggers, smooth bores or trick rifling. It's about the OAL. They point out that the Reformation has an 11.5" barrel. Do you know what the OAL of an AR is with an 11.5" barrel, carbine RE, bare muzzle and no stock? 26 inches.

Do you know what the minimum OAL of a pistol needs to be before a vertical forgrip can be install without creating an AOW? 26 inches. At this point, the weapon becomes an unconcealable firearm. As long as you don't conceal it, a handgun that's 26 inches or longer can legally have a VFG.

I think Franklin Armory convinced the ATF that since that at 26 inches or more, a handgun becomes a unconcealable firearm that's not a rifle or a shotgun, it should be legal to mount a stock on it without making it an SBR.
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Old January 16, 2018, 18:01   #19
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Anyone have linkage to where this BATFE decision was published ? IE can anyone do this or is it limited to Franklin Armory ?

FA states this is new technology looks to me its just a barrel length, not talking about the binary trigger. So I can't build an 80% AR lower into a firearm unless it has the binary only trigger.
Same questions I have? Where is the "new technology" I see a short barrel upper on a rifle lower. What trigger pack is in it should not have any bearing. As easy as it is to flip uppers and lowers back and forth from rifles to pistol with braces, makes no sense to have any barrel length rules.

Man can build a few AR pistols, a few rifles and in under a minute could throw an pistol upper on a rifle lower. Then in less than another minute could put it back. That said, with a brace it doesn't even matter. BATFE needs to apply a little common sense. Feds need to have at least another period where Form 4 transferable machine guns can be built for the market and clean up the C&R guns. Just put them all on on Form 4's and let responsible people buy what they want at an affordable price.

Can build a 14.7" rifle with pinned quick change suppressor adapter or pin a suppressor on a 11.5" or 12.5" barrel and have a legal single stamp SBR. Or build same gun as pistol with brace and use quick change cans. Basically there are a dozen ways to skin the same cat now. I can run my binary AR rifles as fast as I can a select fire M4 accurately. Binary triggers have changed the game for me.

Soon as I can get one of the binary trigger packs for H&K's will have at least one, probably two. Will then hunt down a belt fed receiver for one of my H&K 91's, add the binary trigger pack and instant HK21 with no form. Guarantee from behind good cover with a nice long belt only the most experienced combat veteran would be able to tell it's not a Form 4 belt fed machine gun but just a high dollar rifle with a $600 trigger pack thats burning rounds into their position.

Too many Slidefire stocks, binary triggers already out in circulation to put the genie back in the bottle. Not to mention with about $1 worth of hardware from most people parts bins can build a bump stock, can use a shoelace to turn a M1a, Mini 14 or M1 Garrand into a full auto. External thread flash hiders that accept a myriad of fuel and oil filters abound on the market. If a man was so inclined could build his rifles with external thread flash hiders, install binary triggers, put three or four cases of fuel filters for heavy trucks in storage shed and have sidestepped all registration regulations for day it's fight or die.

Personally like my nice quick change Form 4 cans and other well designed cans and paying for a tax stamp doesn't bother me, just the wait considering have so many Form 4's it should be a very quick process to add more. Why should it take a year to get a Form processed when have a vault full of Form 4 items already. Glad I sold all but three form 4 machine guns. Will likely keep the AC 556 and M11's for life just because the Mini 14 GB folder is so compact and the sub two second mag dumps with the M11's are fun on occasion and cost to burn 380 is almost nothing. It's almost mind blowing to know that they put out over 3,000 foot pounds of energy per second.
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Old January 16, 2018, 23:02   #20
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I don't know why anybody wants a 5.56 sbr in the first place, you're just robbing the cartridge of its only asset, velocity. Is there any advantage to clipping 4 or 5 inches off a barrel or is it just the cool factor in the look it creates? A Tavor is shorter than an SBR anyway.
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Old January 17, 2018, 00:10   #21
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Old January 17, 2018, 05:51   #22
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How difficult would it be to manufacture a smooth bore with a rifled 556 or 308 slug?
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Old January 17, 2018, 14:23   #23
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and don't forget the rubber-band
I was trying to keep one secret and there you go ruining the whole thing!

Impala guy, SBR built for lobbing large heavy subsonic ammo does not rob rifle of anything. Also there are guys that can ring the 1,000 yard gong with a 12.5" 5.56 with good barrel like Noveske turns out. Personally I prefer an 18" barrel but my 13.7" Novese, 13.5" White Oaks are all way sub MOA and very compact even with a suppressor.
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Old January 17, 2018, 20:32   #24
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The exception has nothing to do with triggers, smooth bores or trick rifling. It's about the OAL. They point out that the Reformation has an 11.5" barrel. Do you know what the OAL of an AR is with an 11.5" barrel, carbine RE, bare muzzle and no stock? 26 inches.

Do you know what the minimum OAL of a pistol needs to be before a vertical forgrip can be install without creating an AOW? 26 inches. At this point, the weapon becomes an unconcealable firearm. As long as you don't conceal it, a handgun that's 26 inches or longer can legally have a VFG.

I think Franklin Armory convinced the ATF that since that at 26 inches or more, a handgun becomes a unconcealable firearm that's not a rifle or a shotgun, it should be legal to mount a stock on it without making it an SBR.
So an 11.5 upper with a stock is just as legal as the Franklin? Just make sure the flash hider doesn't screw up the OAL? That seems to easy.
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Old January 17, 2018, 22:01   #25
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So an 11.5 upper with a stock is just as legal as the Franklin?
That's what I'm hoping for.
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Old January 19, 2018, 01:44   #26
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Read their press release carefully. Nowhere did they say anything about the exception being allowed by anything they have patented. They said they would be using patented stuff to make a new category of AR.
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Old January 20, 2018, 12:56   #27
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Should probably start a pool on how soon ATF reverses this decision.


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This....
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Old January 21, 2018, 15:51   #28
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I'm thinking they got ATF to rule a 26" + AR is a "firearm" and not a short barreled rifle.
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Old January 22, 2018, 15:52   #29
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Old January 22, 2018, 17:09   #30
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Bet the ATF got twisted up in their wording between pistol, rifle, other and this loophole has been in place all along. Kinda like a Mossberg Shockwave scenario.
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Old January 22, 2018, 17:20   #31
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Bet the ATF got twisted up in their wording between pistol, rifle, other and this loophole has been in place all along. Kinda like a Mossberg Shockwave scenario.
I think you got it right there, the "other"
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Old January 22, 2018, 20:05   #32
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I think they found the loopholes in the wording, like the video suggested. If so, it kind of makes the NFA obsolete so far as SBRs are concerned. So long as the ATF doesn't decide too change their ruling.
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Old January 22, 2018, 22:20   #33
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Answer: Rifling..."minus the twist" (paraphrasing)

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Old January 22, 2018, 22:34   #34
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The exception has nothing to do with triggers, smooth bores or trick rifling. It's about the OAL. They point out that the Reformation has an 11.5" barrel. Do you know what the OAL of an AR is with an 11.5" barrel, carbine RE, bare muzzle and no stock? 26 inches.

Do you know what the minimum OAL of a pistol needs to be before a vertical forgrip can be install without creating an AOW? 26 inches. At this point, the weapon becomes an unconcealable firearm. As long as you don't conceal it, a handgun that's 26 inches or longer can legally have a VFG.

I think Franklin Armory convinced the ATF that since that at 26 inches or more, a handgun becomes a unconcealable firearm that's not a rifle or a shotgun, it should be legal to mount a stock on it without making it an SBR.
^^This^^ being my guess as well....
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Old January 23, 2018, 12:51   #35
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Straight rifling, only accurate to approximately 50 yards, with a 4-5 MOA.

No thanks.
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Old January 23, 2018, 15:52   #36
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Old January 23, 2018, 18:27   #37
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Proprietary Ammo? I'm sure there will be takers, but Ill stick with a brace so I can still burn through surplus ammo.

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Old January 23, 2018, 18:35   #38
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proprietary ammo is an OPTION, not required.
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Old January 23, 2018, 21:27   #39
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Gotcha...so you can use both standard and proprietary ammo. The video from Shot Show about the weapon:

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Old January 24, 2018, 08:53   #40
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While I really think this is a solution in search of a problem, and introducing issues of its own, like price, accuracy, and custom ammunition, it does bring up one interesting point. If I read the BATF&E finding correctly, one could build, what would otherwise be a short barreled shotgun, by simply using a short barrel with straight rifling. So, a real stock and a straight rifled barrel in a length sufficient to equal or exceed 26", would not be a short barreled shotgun.

An ATI Hybrid Shotgun in .410 could have a barrel length of less than 18" and not violate the NFA. I wonder if a straight rifled barrel counts as prior art or if it's patentable?
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:12   #41
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:22   #42
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Are they going to sell those lawn dart projectiles in bulk? That way you could load your own ammo.
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Old January 27, 2018, 09:13   #43
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This is going to cause all kinds of problems with semi knowledgeable law enforcement. Imagine trying to explain all of this to a county DA or judge who "knows" the laws. Screw that noise, not worth the legal bills or the headaches.
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Old January 27, 2018, 09:44   #44
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This is going to cause all kinds of problems with semi knowledgeable law enforcement. Imagine trying to explain all of this to a county DA or judge who "knows" the laws. Screw that noise, not worth the legal bills or the headaches.
Great point....Range Fuds are going to loose their minds on this. Lots of arguments will ensue over this one.
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Old January 27, 2018, 09:50   #45
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4 to 5 MOA at 50 yards. So where are projectiles landing at 100 and farther? Will they be so unstable that fly over backstops, hit neighboring targets upsetting other shooters? This seems like a bad idea waiting to happen. Now if they designed them to self destruct at 50 yards in puff of smoke would be cool. Can see some guy loading one up with M855 green tip and flinging bullets everywhere at range. People will get hurt.
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Old January 27, 2018, 14:44   #46
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Can you imagine what it would look like to dump a mag of tracer through this thing? Little burning buzz bombs going every which-a-way.

Standard ball would carry enough energy and be accurate enough to be devastating at 50yds. Both accuracy and energy go way down way fast at even slightly longer range. If it's hitting 5" groups at 50yds it's probably not hitting paper at 100yds and if it does it may not be punching through that paper. Sideways flying bullets don't do anything well for very long. You can't extrapolate 10" groups at a hundred and still expect any sort of power. You'd be better with round balls but .224" won't get you much. I can see something like this with .45ACP or .50AE firing round balls. You just might be able to carry enough accuracy and energy to be useful to a hundred.

All that said, there's no reason for this thing with pistol braces around and frankly I agree with an earlier post about the general uselessness of an AR SBR. Suppressed and in pistol caliber, fine. Maybe even in 5.56 if suppressed, but going around blasting with huge explosions from what is effectively a .22 Mag is juvenile. I still keep 20" barrels on 90% of my ARs. Why give up the ballistics and reliability(short gas systems SUCK btw)? 20" A1's are lighter weight than most SBRs and even 20" is a carbine.
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Old January 28, 2018, 08:11   #47
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Have more 18" AR's than any other length. Second most owned length is 14.7" as with pinned muzzle device have 16" legal length barrel that is fairly maneuverable. Beyond that I now have two 11.5" 5.56 with pinned suppressors and a 12.5" 6.8 with a pinned suppressor. They come out in 17" to 18" OAL and split difference of maneuverability and pleasant tone when shoot even without ear protection.

Have a pair of 13" White Oak Armament AR's with Noveske Flaming Pigs to bring up to legal length but since the Pigs are pinned can't swap over to suppressors but are handy length. Just got a pair of Noveske 18" and 13.7" barrels. The two 18" will get AAC 51T Ratchet Mount suppressor adapters. The 13.7" found a guy that makes custom muzzle brakes and making me a pair that once pinned will bring barrel length to 16.05" from bolt face and have external threads for a pair of Form 1 cans already submitted paper work for. In past found 13.7" Noveske barrels more accurate than most 18" generic barrels and the 13" White Oak Armament shoot under MOA.

Would estimate without pulling down vaults or trying to reconcile "books" probably have more 18" barrels than any other length. A good 18" is trim enough to maneuver outdoors and can be super accurate from vendors like Noveske, White Oak Armament, ARP and others. Some 18" barrels purchased were disappointing and came off if didn't shoot solidly sub MOA.

Second most owned length would be 14.7" to 12.5" that can be pinned to 16" or more based on muzzle device selected. Was stoked to find the guy willing to make external thread muzzle brakes for my 13.7" barrels for some Form 1 cans. In same group are a couple or three 11.5" with pinned cans and thus have a pile of shorter barrel rifles legally modified in some manner to 16" as hate two stamp rifles.

Third most popular length in pile are 16" OEM rifles. Have collected up a pile of factory Colt, Smith and other name brand 16" rifles for investment purposes though 16" is basically my least favorite length. Unless White Oak, Lothar, Shilen, Pac-Nor quality to build an accurate rifle that can still swing a can on only reason for existence of 16" length is to satisfy Feds easiest with least issues for muzzle device swappers. Have 16" W.O.A.SPR barrels on both my night vision AR's but they are top line barrels and almost always use cans so need to balance accuracy with maneuverability.

Past 18" have about half dozen 20" rifles, pair of 24" and one 26" AR tube. Four of the 20" tubes are Pony guns and other two are W.O.A. builds that will drive tacks. Both 24" tubes are heavy profile 1:12 twist built for launching 37 to 50 grain varmint bullets. Learned on trips out west could overheat a barrel fast over an active prairie dog field. Actually have had to stop killing to save ruining a rifle so now have the pair of little long range varmint killers with identical barrels, triggers and scopes so can swap rifles as one gets hot and do not have to stop killing due to hot rifle. Built the one 26" tube to prove to myself the extra length is not worth toting it around as not enough better shooter than my 20" guns to warrant building more.

A rifle that is only 4 to 5 MOA at 50 yards just to bypass SBR regulations using a very odd ammo design is totally stupid. I can't wait to see the guys that buy these. Will likely sell a few at LGS once start shipping as owner will stock anything to see if sells. My guess is the clients on this will be the 300 pound guys wearing desert camo in north GA that get winded coming up the stairs and insist on FDE color because it's what operators use in middle East even though we live in the jungle. Very few guns I own and will carry out the door that won't shoot MOA at 100. A couple of short barrel suppressed fall a fad short of MOA but not much, my guess ts this new technology will be closer to 20 MOA at 100.
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Old January 28, 2018, 10:19   #48
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Old January 28, 2018, 11:22   #49
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Originally Posted by kev View Post
Can you imagine what it would look like to dump a mag of tracer through this thing? Little burning buzz bombs going every which-a-way..
Tracer,,loaded up with some slower powder,,so you get like a 3' flame out of the barrel too !!!
How awesome mall ninja is that...
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Old January 31, 2018, 03:15   #50
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This thing is the talk of the town, I know this because its been a non stop flow of customers asking me about this thing. It's a gimmick without a doubt, and I'll wager an expensive one at that. Everyone wants to reinvent the wheel to try to break the mold these days. Also straight, great to see that we're brushing the dust off old technology.
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