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Old March 21, 2019, 18:06   #151
W.E.G.
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Question: How far does the short Palmetto gas tube actually engage the gas-key on the Palmetto bolt carrier?

See pics for answer.



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Old March 21, 2019, 19:39   #152
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If you look at the side by side comparison pics of the 3 types of gas tubes, you can clearly see how far each gas tube enters the gas key. The farthest point of gas key movement is indicated by the wear marks on each gas tube and terminates about the middle of the circular cut out near the breech face. Using that mark on each gas tube, you can see the PSA tube goes into the key about 2 times the diameter of the circular cut. The DPMS appears to go in to the key about 2Ĺ times the diameter of the circular cut. And the Fulton tube goes in about 3 times the diameter.

So that brings up a good test. How much does the insertion length of the gas tube into the gas key affect reliable operation? I would postulate that the shorter distances minimize the effect of gas pressure and pulse time, which may cause a lighter and less sharp bolt movement causing erratic extraction and feeding. The maximum insert would give a longer gas pulse meaning more pressure to activate the bolt giving sharper movement and quicker bolt speeds during the cycle.

So anybody in the process of building one care to try testing this out?
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Old March 21, 2019, 19:48   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvcdl View Post
Gary

I can see your review on the PSA site.

Did you ever try to fire the PA-10 as issued from PSA?

I'm wondering if it would have worked in as shipped configuration with original trigger and stock.

It looks like yours and two others have indicated that the extractor performance was less than satisfactory - one review as 4 stars, yours a 3 star and the last was a 1 star. OUCH!!!
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Old March 21, 2019, 19:52   #154
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Its all put-together now.

And it cycles.

I reckon I'm gonna have to shoot it in a match.

I present to you, the 2019 version of the M-110 service rifle. All 15.2 pounds of it.

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Old March 25, 2019, 13:49   #155
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Another range-trip with the PA-10 today in its 15.2# configuration.

I still need to add some rail-covers, because the cheese-grater wasn't getting along so well with my left hand, even with a Creedmoor shooting glove.

I shot two targets. First target I made some corrections on the sight-adjustment. Target posted here, I left the knobs alone.

I have a bad habit of sending the first shot high. Hoping more familiarization, and rail-covers will mitigate that.

I fired all shots by feed from the magazine. But, I did break position on each shot to scope the shot in the spotting scope.

So far, I'm encouraged by the accuracy this barrel tries to provide when I do my part.

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Old March 25, 2019, 13:55   #156
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Looks like things are working out...

As a related aside, I use the Magpul Ladder rail covers, which are minimal but cut the sharpness very well. Unfortunately, they are sold individually and each $0.13 piece of plastic sells for $8-$12, depending on source...

I'm sure that someone will come along and recommend something more Tacticool...

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Old March 25, 2019, 15:10   #157
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Yeah, I have a bunch of the Magpul XTM panels to install.

I wasn't for-sure where I wanted them, so didn't put them on yet.

Glad I didn't, because its worked out that I need to move the pic-rails back more toward the mag well.

I need the forearm to be shaped so that it doesn't put all the pressure on one finger-joint and the corner of the pic-rail.
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Old March 31, 2019, 21:38   #158
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Shot three strings of 20 at 600 yards today at Fort Hill (Cumberland Maryland)
Wind was WHIPPING. Today was the most wind I have ever seen at Fort Hill. Wind was blowing shooting mats off the firing line and blowing-over shooting stools and chairs.
Temperatures in mid-40's all day.

First string was with my AR15 and my best 600-yard ammo (24.4 Varget and 80 SMK). Score was OK. At least it was a master score.
Second string was same AR15 but with my "short line" ammo (24.2 Varget and 75 Hornady). Huge difference in how much bullet was pushed around by wind.
Third string is what I promised to report. Shot with Palmetto PA-10 that has been subject of this thread. I think the gun did OK. My performance behind the gun... not so much.



Play-time with the PA-10 at 600 yard line.

My scorekeeper was kind enough to plot shot-location on each shot. The dot in each score-block indicates the approximate location of the impact relative to the center of the target. For instance, Shot #1 was a shot-value of 8, with impact at roughly 4 o'clock (per the dot).

First sighter at 600 way low off my estimate.
Second sighter at 600 came up 3 minutes (not enough)

First record-shot came up 2 more minutes (out the top)

second record-shot still too high and wind is making me its bitch already because I'm thinking about elevation issues, and not paying attention to what the wind was doing. Paid for that carelessness.

Shots 3-5 Paying attention to the wind and doing OK

Shot 6 probably a bad shot (corner shot), but why not correct off a bad shot?
Because shot 7. That's why. Out the right now.

Shot 8 Figured shot 7 was a bad shot, so don't correct windage.Send another shot to the same spot in the damn 7-ring.

Shots 9-12 creeping back from the right side slowly while the wind was playing me more.

Shot 13 Completely lose my mind. Bold correction. If you're gonna do bold corrections, might as well put a cherry on it by turning the knob the wrong direction. Hello 5-ring!

Shot 14 Still don't want to believe I screwed-up shot 13 so bad. Insufficient correction.

Shot 15 Getting really confused, and afraid to touch the knobs. So send another one into almost the same place in the 8-ring as previous shot.

Shots 16-17 Creeping back from the right again (favoring some instead of touching knobs).

Shot 18 Favored way too much. Way out the left.

Shot 19 Nothing to lose now. Just hold center, and try not to flinch. Finally in the X-ring.

Shot 20 Do it again. A 10.

Well, that was ugly. Mostly ME being ugly. If I had made better wind calls, and if I hadn't made a big brainfart on shot 13, overall score would have been quite a bit better.


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Old April 01, 2019, 05:58   #159
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So, you dropped a couple shots on the 600 line at the end of a cool, windy day...
I think you are still performing better than many shooters would, and I admire you for it.
Nice work, if you ask me.
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Old April 01, 2019, 08:37   #160
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I did enjoy the outing.

I wish the wind would blow like that more often. I might actually get good at reading it. At least it kept the biting flies away!
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Old April 01, 2019, 17:47   #161
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What scope are you running on it?
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Old April 01, 2019, 19:49   #162
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Same 1-4x Leupold Mark AR green dot on all the service rifles.


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...rk_ar_mod.html
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Old April 06, 2019, 21:38   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Oh, and South Carolina is not (yet) charging SALES TAX to out-of-state purchasers.

(not shilling for Palmetto - just making an observation)
They charge sales tax to me in Georgia, kinda kills the deal a bit. I was in Pawleys Island SC a couple weeks ago. PSA runs TV ads, Ha.
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Old April 10, 2019, 18:45   #164
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I shot a simulated 800-point match today with the PA-10.
All firing done at 200 yards (used reduced targets for rapid-fire prone and slow-fire prone).

I fired on the targets in the reverse-order of how they are typically fired
in an NRA/CMP match (i.e. shot prone first).
I had no reliable zero for sitting position or offhand position,
so figured it made sense work-into a zero that would put me into the ballpark.

I’m pretty happy with the result.

You can see that I’m still having significant issues with maintaining a good elevation hold.
I have this problem (holding consistent elevation) some when shooting the 5.56 AR.
Clearly, I’ve got my work cut out for me to get a handle on it with the 7.62.
To give you an idea where I am in terms of ability to hold,
I reliably shoot “master” scores (94%+) from prone and sitting position.
Typically expert scores (89% - 93%) offhand.

A few remarks about the targets:
Most popular AR-10 these days?
600-yard target reduced for 200 yards.
Single-feed loading. Breaking position to reload on each shot.
When I began, I thought I already had a solid zero for the load (168 SMK / 41.5 gr. IMR-4895).
First shot was that scratch-ten at ten o’clock. Figured good-to-go.
Next several shots were SUBSTANTIALLY LOW. Several 7’s. That was pretty annoying,
so I started cranking elevation onto the scope until I found my way back into the middle.
Little-by-little, I ended up adding a total of TWO MINUTES UP elevation.
At about the fifteenth shot, I was out the top. So cranked about a minute down.
I think my elevation issue is a function of trigger-control and follow-through combined.
I just need to keep working on it with this gun, or I’m going to continue to have slow-prone targets that look like this.



300-yard reduced for 200 yards.
Using same load as previous target.
You will notice this target also has vertical stringing.
Perhaps slightly less-pronounced than the “600-yard” target.
This target was fired with the same sight-settings as were used to fire the final shot on the “600-yard” target.
Most shots are a bit right too. The displacement to the right is a function of getting
on the trigger harder to maintain “rapid-fire” pace. Causes the shots to be pulled a little right for right-handed shooter.



200-yard sitting rapid-fire target.
Using surplus Spanish “Santa Barbara” ammo.
I fired five sighters on a target not pictured in this post.
Using the same sight-setting as the previous target, and much to my surprise,
the five sighters landed neatly in the 10-ring and at the ten o’clock position where
I like my sighters to go for rapid-fire sitting-position.
My sitting-position sighters always mislead and lie to me.
The first string of ten shots was enough high and right, that I felt a sight adjustment was warranted.
Not wanting to really screw the pooch, I made a too-conservative adjustment of only one click (one-third minute) down,
and one click left. From the looks of the target,
I could have used a more significant down and left adjustment.
Still a master score for the first time firing this rifle from sitting position. So, I guess I’m not too disappointed.



Offhand target.
20 shots standing.
Zero was a little weird on this one. Started with the same sight-setting as used on previous target.
Over the course of the 20 shots, I ended up coming DOWN TWO MINUTES, and also RIGHT TWO MINUTES.
So, blew a lot of 8’s high early. Those 7’s on the left, I’ll just own them. Would have probably been 8’s
if I’d had the best dope on the gun, but still out there because I shot them out there.



Well, there it is. That’s what this rifle “could do” in a match.
Really more like what I can do with this rifle in a match.
As I mentioned before, I’m no great offhand shooter. I’m pretty dangerous once I get off my feet.
I am confident that most of the points lost from supported positions were a function of not having a really good zero
for those positions, and also imperfect shot execution. I don’t think this upper is a “lights out” specimen.
But, its really not bad. The shooter needs the most work by far.
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Old April 10, 2019, 19:38   #165
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Here is my PA-10 picture contribution. It currently has a fauxcog but want to put a night vision scope, specifically the ATN opmod 3-14x digital scope.

Why can't I upload a picture?
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Old April 10, 2019, 19:50   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRotz View Post

Why can't I upload a picture?
If you thought the FAL Files pic-hosting function sucked when you were here years ago, it has gotten worse by a significant margin.

Host pics off-site, or don't bother. Really.
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Old April 10, 2019, 22:34   #167
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Here's my PA10 setup, I got the Gen 2 lower last year and the lightweight upper the same timeframe as Gary's.

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Old April 10, 2019, 22:51   #168
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Here's my PA10 setup until I get a suitable scope.
Gen 2 Lower w/molded PG
Came with an EPT single stage which was an acceptable single stage after unpolished it up more.
Magpul ACS stock
Magpul VFG
Magpul bipod
Odin works adjustable gas block
DPMS buffer
Larue MBT

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Old April 11, 2019, 00:04   #169
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Damn good shooting imo.
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Old April 11, 2019, 16:09   #170
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Mine shoots my 308 hunting loads well enough for hogs, which is all I plan to use it for.
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Old May 23, 2019, 15:56   #171
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I fired mine again last weekend in a highpower rifle match. Still getting an unacceptably-large vertical component in my groups.

I have a few unrelated projects I need to finish right now. But, as time permits, I intend to remove the barrel nut, and take note of the tightness (or lack thereof), as well as carefully inspect the engagement surfaces between the receiver and the barrel. This rifle is not going to be accurate enough for my needs unless the groups stop stringing vertically.
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Old July 11, 2019, 21:53   #172
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I removed the Palmetto barrel from the receiver today.

The barrel nut seemed appropriately-tight as I removed it. I had to piggyback a big-ass trailer-hitch box-end wench over the handle of a 12Ē adjustable wrench to break the nut loose. No threadlocker was present on the barrel nut. Some sort of white-colored grease was evident on the threads.

Once the nut was removed it took some legitimate wrestling to get the barrel to pull free of the receiver. Thatís a good thing.

I couldnít see any flaws on the mating surfaces of the barrel extension or the receiver.

I cleaned up the shoddy grinder-marks on the feed ramps before re-installing the barrel. After applying some fresh synthetic grease on the threads, I used the same piggyback wrench trick to tighten the barrel nut. I snugged-loosened the nut three times before sending it to full torque.

Range trip tomorrow to see whether itís still shooting vertically-strung groups.
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Old July 12, 2019, 08:49   #173
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Finally got off my butt and looked to see which PSA barrel I installed on mine. It is the PA10 18" MIDLENGTH GAS .308 WIN 1:10 BARREL WITH NITRIDE FINISH. I installed an adjustable gas block from Brownell's, an Odinworks forearm, VOLTOR Clubfoot (fixed) stock. and a PSA nitrided bolt/carrier assembly. I get pretty good groups with no signs of stringing; horizontal or vertical. I use 168 HPBT of various manufacturers loaded to Federal GMM specs. I have used it in a couple of F class 300 yd matches and did alright, with no issues caused by the rifle (shooter only). I did have to take my brake off (installed for my supressor) because it messed with the shooters beside me. I don't know if that helped or hurt accuracy, but with the can installed it has an accceptable hunting rifle accuracy. Upper and lower are both PSA blems purchased separately.

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Old July 12, 2019, 15:07   #174
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This is acceptable.

I think re-torquing the barrel made a difference.

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Old July 12, 2019, 21:15   #175
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So, here's what it took:
  • replaced short Palmetto gas tube with rifle-length AR10 gas tube
  • replaced non-functional Palmetto extractor with Fulton Armory AR10 extractor and extractor-spring
  • replaced basic trigger with Geissele National Match trigger
  • replaced basic collapsible buttstock with Magpul UBR generation-1 buttstock
  • installed Magpul 0.70" thick enhanced buttpad
  • replaced basic carbine buffer with*KAK 5.3 ounce carbine buffer
  • replaced Palmetto carbine buffer spring with DPMS LR-308 buffer spring (not sure there's any real difference between the two)
  • experimented with adjustable gas block, but ended up just using the Palmetto*gas block (its decent IMO)
  • polished ham-handed grinder-marks off feed-ramps on barrel extension
  • added as many keymod cheese-grater bits as the handguard would accept (main purpose was to increase weight)
  • added Magpul XTM forearm panels to rearmost cheese-grater bits to keep cheese-grater from eating my left hand during sling-supported firing
  • mounted pushbutton 1.25" sling swivel to forward cheese-grater bit at 6 o'clock to comply with NRA rule for service rifle swivel location
  • mounted Turner all-weather service-rifle sling
  • installed Larue LT-104 scope mount and Leupold Mark AR green firedot 1-4X scope
  • added Stealth Ballistics buttstock weight to UBR stock (improve balance and increase weight)
  • obtained wrench for removal of barrel nut from Harbor Freight (12" adjustable wrench) - modified wrench by thinning wrench-jaws and wrench-frame with angle-grinder and chainsaw file.
  • removed barrel for inspection, then reinstalled re-torqued the barrel nut with a couple extra ugga-duggas (technical term)

Now I just need to go shoot a 500 in the National Trophy Individual Match. LOL!
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Old July 12, 2019, 21:23   #176
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Pic taken before installing the Magpul XTM cheese-grater covers

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Old July 16, 2019, 17:55   #177
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Another range trip today.

Heat index 101*

Sorry for the blurry pics. Didn't have my glasses on when I took the pics of the targets. Couldn't tell that the camera wasn't focusing.

The wandering-elevation issue appears to be resolved.





I was pretty gassed by the time I tried to shoot the sitting position. I was playing around with some different ammo and also turning scope-turret knobs. Doesn't explain the scattershot. No, the scattershot was me trying to shoot a .30 caliber service rifle rapid-fire from sitting position when I was gassed from the heat. Of course, the camera decided to focus when I was looking my worst. Keeping it real.

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Old July 16, 2019, 18:03   #178
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I would be proud of any of those targets.
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Old July 16, 2019, 18:32   #179
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I would be proud of any of those targets.
I would be broke if I shot like that. I would have walked right in to the club house and shouted "the drinks are on me". Well, not really, but I would have felt really good about those targets.
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Old July 16, 2019, 20:46   #180
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I would be broke if I shot like that. I would have walked right in to the club house and shouted "the drinks are on me". Well, not really, but I would have felt really good about those targets.
And there's that...

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Old July 16, 2019, 21:40   #181
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I think the rifle is finally a keeper.

I can shoot better scores with similar-configured service rifle in 5.56, especially sitting rapid fire.

I always wondered what I could do with a service rifle that complies with the rule for M-110. I believe this one is M-110 compliant. I’ve already got my Distinguished pin. I’d like to shoot this in some EIC matches now since the pressure of those matches is behind me. Hoping it will remain accurate for a few thousand rounds.
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Old July 20, 2019, 18:28   #182
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I see my review has disappeared from the Palmetto website.

Again.
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Old July 21, 2019, 12:25   #183
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I see my review has disappeared from the Palmetto website.

Again.
LMAO. They can't take the heat. But my PA10 has been flawless and softer recoil with the adjustable gas block. Then I mounted this monstrosity on it for piggies.

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Old July 21, 2019, 12:56   #184
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While cleaning the PA-10 today, I noticed that the head of the firing pin is beginning to "mushroom."

This pic shows the condition of the firing pin after approximately 300 rounds.

No evidence of deformation at the tip of the pin (the part that strikes the primer).

I am running a Geissele "National Match" trigger group with this firing pin.

Since taking this pic, I have used a file to remove the deformed metal from the head of the firing pin.

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Old July 21, 2019, 12:59   #185
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Wow, never seen a firing pin worn like that in 40 years of shooting ARs. That one must have missed heat-treat.
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Old July 21, 2019, 13:13   #186
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Wow, never seen a firing pin worn like that in 40 years of shooting ARs. That one must have missed heat-treat.
And there's that...

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Old July 21, 2019, 13:21   #187
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Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
While cleaning the PA-10 today, I noticed that the head of the firing pin is beginning to "mushroom."

This pic shows the condition of the firing pin after approximately 300 rounds.

No evidence of deformation at the tip of the pin (the part that strikes the primer).

I am running a Geissele "National Match" trigger group with this firing pin.

Since taking this pic, I have used a file to remove the deformed metal from the head of the firing pin.

jeeeez.
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