One flyer in 5

rajah · March 10, 2018, 18:49

Shooting my DSA today using some German MS ball from 1959. The five round groups all went to the 10 ring at 100 yards 1.5" for 4 shots except one flyer that would strike in the 9 ring to make a 3" group. It has a nice condition Imbel barrel. Are the single flyers typical behavior for the FAL type rifle? My M1A shooting the same ball doesn't exhibit the flyer issue (unless I cause it).

meltblown · March 10, 2018, 19:04

Pretty much typical. Normally the string is vertical

Friend of mine says they are supposed to shoot minute of asshole.

Goose52 · March 10, 2018, 19:32

Don't you just hate those flyers...

Those are 1" squares. This WOULD HAVE BEEN the BEST group ever fired out of this rifle in the 29 years that I've owned it...

meltblown · March 10, 2018, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goose52

Don't you just hate those flyers...

Those are 1" squares. This WOULD HAVE BEEN the BEST group ever fired out of this rifle in the 29 years that I've owned it...

Cool. My wife was shooting at 100 yds and had a group not quite as tight on my SA junker. Wanted her to shoot the 5th for round one of the FAL challenge. Her response was nah I’m done can we leave now.

**imacoonass01** · March 10, 2018, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goose52

Don't you just hate those flyers...

Those are 1" squares. This WOULD HAVE BEEN the BEST group ever fired out of this rifle in the 29 years that I've owned it...

4 flyers in the same spot?

Goose52 · March 10, 2018, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by imacoonass01

4 flyers in the same spot?

YES ...

Like most FALs, this is usually a 2 to 3 MOA rifle with the occasional 1.5 MOA group...

**Right Side Up** · March 10, 2018, 22:55

This is what is frustrating about the FAL. I've had so many groups that were on their way to being great...then one goes out into orbit and the cuss words fly.

Edited to add: I'm going to make a mental note of that load combo. Looks consistent.

STG_58_guy · March 11, 2018, 18:57

Nice group, even with the flyer. That said, from a statistical process control point of view, there is no such thing as a flyer. It is what it is.

I see this all the time too. Not just with FALs either. Part of it is just math. Most rounds will hit closer to the true point of aim, but some will not. That is the nature of mechanical systems. And it gets even more chaotic when paired with a human operator.

Another pattern I see a lot with FALs is the two group group. Three low left, two high right, or some variation of that. I figure that's reflecting which side of the magazine the round comes from but I haven't bothered to prove it.

With surplus, I think a lot of those "flyers" are ammo related. But these were hand loads with top notch bullets.

I think some of them are me. I forget to reposition, or I get impatient, or my eyes get tired. To shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards, you have to do everything perfect, every shot. For me, that gets hard after the tenth or twentieth 5 shot group.

Finally, it's the FAL. Just ramming the round into the chamber a little harder one out of five time could do it. It's an inherent weakness compared to a rotating bolt with locking lugs.

I've shot hundreds of 5 shot groups with a bunch of different FALs. They are curious animals.

**brunop** · March 11, 2018, 19:38

I've come to wonder if that "flyer" is late in the group when we know we're shooting well and we can't help but get our face up off the gun and "have a look".

Because once you break the cheek weld, it's not going back in the same place.

Also - five shots out of the mag where the fifth shot is NOT the last round in the mag. That's important in my bones/tea leaves/rooster blood recipe for shooting good groups with the FAL.

**brunop** · March 11, 2018, 19:39

Also: Nice shooting, Raj. Thanks for posting.

STG_58_guy · March 11, 2018, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by brunop

I've come to wonder if that "flyer" is late in the group when we know we're shooting well and we can't help but get our face up off the gun and "have a look".

Because once you break the cheek weld, it's not going back in the same place.

Also - five shots out of the mag where the fifth shot is NOT the last round in the mag. That's important in my bones/tea leaves/rooster blood recipe for shooting good groups with the FAL.

I think my personal weakness is number 4.

**Jaxxas** · March 12, 2018, 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by rajah

Shooting my DSA today using some German MS ball from 1959. The five round groups all went to the 10 ring at 100 yards 1.5" for 4 shots except one flyer that would strike in the 9 ring to make a 3" group. It has a nice condition Imbel barrel. Are the single flyers typical behavior for the FAL type rifle? My M1A shooting the same ball doesn't exhibit the flyer issue (unless I cause it).

Don't over think it, the easy fix is 3 round groups!

hansellhd · March 12, 2018, 11:03

3 of my 5 FAL rifles do the same thing. It's the way it is, again don't over think it.

jhend170 · March 13, 2018, 14:12

If you're including the nut behind the trigger in the grouping then it is what it is. It's only a "flyer" if you've removed as many variables as possible, and my money says that trigger nut is far more likely the cause. Additionally, ball ammo only had to meet a certain accuracy requirement, I think the current for M-193 is 2-3moa. If you're not feeding it precisely loaded stuff, or better, loaded and tuned to the weapon, I'm thinking your group was more a fluke than anything with a flyer. If you want to blame the equipment though you have to strap that baby into a sled and use a trigger actuator that prevents you from touching the riFAL, while at the same time using ammo you know is repeatable. Do it that way and you'll know what the weapon is capable of under ideal circumstances, otherwise it's a battle rifle with battle parts meant for ground pounders.

March 10, 2018, 18:49	#1
rajah Registered FALaholic #: 61807 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: CA Posts: 231	One flyer in 5 Shooting my DSA today using some German MS ball from 1959. The five round groups all went to the 10 ring at 100 yards 1.5" for 4 shots except one flyer that would strike in the 9 ring to make a 3" group. It has a nice condition Imbel barrel. Are the single flyers typical behavior for the FAL type rifle? My M1A shooting the same ball doesn't exhibit the flyer issue (unless I cause it). __________________

March 10, 2018, 19:04	#2
meltblown Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 34604 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SA Tx Posts: 13,584	Pretty much typical. Normally the string is vertical Friend of mine says they are supposed to shoot minute of asshole. __________________ Giving people the benefit of the means it’s ok to screw you over. Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed. Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

March 11, 2018, 18:57	#8
STG_58_guy Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 65886 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 9,512	Nice group, even with the flyer. That said, from a statistical process control point of view, there is no such thing as a flyer. It is what it is. I see this all the time too. Not just with FALs either. Part of it is just math. Most rounds will hit closer to the true point of aim, but some will not. That is the nature of mechanical systems. And it gets even more chaotic when paired with a human operator. Another pattern I see a lot with FALs is the two group group. Three low left, two high right, or some variation of that. I figure that's reflecting which side of the magazine the round comes from but I haven't bothered to prove it. With surplus, I think a lot of those "flyers" are ammo related. But these were hand loads with top notch bullets. I think some of them are me. I forget to reposition, or I get impatient, or my eyes get tired. To shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards, you have to do everything perfect, every shot. For me, that gets hard after the tenth or twentieth 5 shot group. Finally, it's the FAL. Just ramming the round into the chamber a little harder one out of five time could do it. It's an inherent weakness compared to a rotating bolt with locking lugs. I've shot hundreds of 5 shot groups with a bunch of different FALs. They are curious animals. __________________ ... ... I intend to enjoy all 120 years of my life. I just need to get that done before I'm 65.

March 11, 2018, 19:38	#9
brunop Refresh Key Masher Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 17136 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 13,031	I've come to wonder if that "flyer" is late in the group when we know we're shooting well and we can't help but get our face up off the gun and "have a look". Because once you break the cheek weld, it's not going back in the same place. Also - five shots out of the mag where the fifth shot is NOT the last round in the mag. That's important in my bones/tea leaves/rooster blood recipe for shooting good groups with the FAL. __________________ "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

March 11, 2018, 19:39	#10
brunop Refresh Key Masher Gold Contributor FALaholic #: 17136 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 13,031	Also: Nice shooting, Raj. Thanks for posting. __________________ "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests people had simply not sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, ham- mers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . The Organs [police] would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and notwithstanding all of Stalin‘s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt." - A. Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago

March 10, 2018, 19:32	#3
Goose52 Registered FALaholic #: 4994 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,287	Don't you just hate those flyers... Those are 1" squares. This WOULD HAVE BEEN the BEST group ever fired out of this rifle in the 29 years that I've owned it...

March 10, 2018, 22:55	#7
Right Side Up Old Fart Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 43 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 7,424	This is what is frustrating about the FAL. I've had so many groups that were on their way to being great...then one goes out into orbit and the cuss words fly. Edited to add: I'm going to make a mental note of that load combo. Looks consistent.

March 12, 2018, 11:03	#13
hansellhd Registered FALaholic #: 31152 Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,187	3 of my 5 FAL rifles do the same thing. It's the way it is, again don't over think it. __________________ HDH.

March 13, 2018, 14:12	#14
jhend170 Registered Contributor FALaholic #: 76477 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,756	If you're including the nut behind the trigger in the grouping then it is what it is. It's only a "flyer" if you've removed as many variables as possible, and my money says that trigger nut is far more likely the cause. Additionally, ball ammo only had to meet a certain accuracy requirement, I think the current for M-193 is 2-3moa. If you're not feeding it precisely loaded stuff, or better, loaded and tuned to the weapon, I'm thinking your group was more a fluke than anything with a flyer. If you want to blame the equipment though you have to strap that baby into a sled and use a trigger actuator that prevents you from touching the riFAL, while at the same time using ammo you know is repeatable. Do it that way and you'll know what the weapon is capable of under ideal circumstances, otherwise it's a battle rifle with battle parts meant for ground pounders.

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