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Old September 23, 2003, 16:11   #1
hongkong3
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Thumbs down George Gouger build warning!

Warning! If you have a George Gouger Build with a muzzle device, I advise you to check for legal attachment. It was discovered and documented by Gunplumber that George Gouger installed my DSA short muzzle brake with loctite!

This saga started on 5-12-02 (16 months ago) when I sent George Gouger the funds in advance, parts and specifications to build my very first FAL. After missing numerous promised shipping dates my gun finally arrived on 2-17-03. It was not what I had ordered, the barrel was 18” instead of 16.25” and it had a carry handle after I specified no handle and supplied the DSA spacer. He said send it back and “I’ll fix it“, since I didn’t want another long wait, I told him I could live with it as is. The first time out the gun would not stay on the paper at 25 yards and went full auto on me. (A little side-bar is called for at this point, I sent George Gouger a set of FSE mod2 trigger components for the build and about a week later saw the thread about the problems of this mod going full auto. I emailed George Gouger about my concerns, included a link to the thread and asked him if he wanted me to send them back for replacement. His total email response to my concerns was “Don’t sweat it, the stupid fuckers can’t fit them up”!) So this is his opinion of the people on the FALFiles, think about that! I called George Gouger about the problems and he said send it back “I’ll fix it” and have it back to you in 10 days. Once again, after numerous missed shipping dates I received the gun back 3 months later. George Gouger said the reason for the delay was that “somehow the gas block pin had sheered” and he just got another one in. I find it very hard to believe that a “name smith” would not have a pin on hand or that it would take three months to “get one in”. Grab a piece of drill rod and make one, a gas block pin is certainly not rocket science!

The gun was finally returned to me and off to the range I go again and surprise, surprise, the gun would not stay on the paper at 25 yards. The next day I pick it up and by the hand guard and I hear and feel a clunk. Upon closer inspection I find that that barrel is loose in the receiver and I could turn it by hand! I asked George Gouger some very specific questions about the build and he would not respond in any way except to say send it back, “I’ll fix it”. I told him that after he had twice attempted to build me a safe, functioning, legal FAL and failed, I could not trust him a third time especially since he refuse’s to address my legitimate questions about just how did he let a gun go out of his shop in this condition, not once, but twice! It’s obvious to me that the gun was never inspected or test fired after either “fix“. My offer to him was to have a third party fix the gun and he would pay for the evaluation, repairs, shipping and any funds that I have spent in getting this resolved, he has steadfastly refused.

Wanting a reality check, I took the gun to Eric (Bearwhositshere) and asked him his opinion of the gun without telling him the builder. After a brief inspection, Eric was less than impressed with the quality of the build and let’s just say that his opinion was far from kind. I then sent the gun to Gunplumber for evaluation and did not tell him who built the gun so as to get a completely unbiased report and to avoid any conflict of interest. The report which was a real eye opener is posted below. Keep in mind that besides the assembly and finish fee, I paid him $175 for what he assured me was “a nice kit” and that he was going to put a “real nice” Steyr barrel on it. I also paid the extra $40 for a DSA piston at his suggestion. I supplied him with a DSA lwt lower, Penguin stock set, DSA charging handle, trigger guard, top cover, carry handle cut spacer, muzzle brake and a FSE fire control set. He was to supply the rest as agreed. As you can see from the report I did not receive “a nice kit”, but instead a bag-o-parts gun made up of defective parts that include an Argentine barrel, Austrian gas plug, Austrian, piston and Inch gas tube, this is not what I paid for or expected.


Just to be clear about my actions, during this entire time I have never attacked him personally, (except for one time when out of frustration I ask him if he was smoking crack) In fact, I’ve practically begged him to do the right thing to no avail. I have 67 saved emails of our dealings, Gunplumbers report with photos and the returned bad parts that clearly show George Gouger’s lack of basic honesty and integrity. The problems with the gun are not some little minor mistakes; the problems are major and show a pattern, of negligence, deceit, obfuscation and outright fraud. I have never threatened him by saying I would take this matter public and have given him every opportunity to keep that from happening but I’ve been too patient for too long. In fact, George Gouger’s lack of response has forced me to enter this into the legal system and he has already been served process and a Court date is pending.

I’m fully aware that the usual suspects will be coming out of the woodwork to defend him, but keep in mind that I have stated documented facts not opinion. George Gouger built this gun twice, this is his work. UPS did not rebuild this gun in the back of the truck in transit to me. Check out GP’s report and judge for yourself. The information about the muzzle brake was discovered by Gunplumber after the original evaluation when I requested that the bad parts be sent to me. In addition, I’ve repeatedly asked George Gouger for my original invoice which was never sent with the gun and he still refuses to provide it to me and I’ve had to issue a subpoena for him to produce it. I’m sick and tired of all his emails laced with military jargon, rants about how I’m trying to ruin his business, veiled threats and cute little smiley faces after every fourth word. But most of all, I’m sick of George Gouger’s refusal to do the right thing. It’s time to pull the pin on his bullshit.

Gunplumbers report:
Received 7/23/03 Gear Logo IMBEL receiver PAC 11xxx, appears normal. Overall finish is a dark manganese phosphate or light black oxide-type coating, relatively uniform.

PSAW OD Handguards and Shoulder Stock, painted a dark forest green. Paint is gummy at lower-stock interface and has a long mark on the right side where solvent dripped and dissolved/bubbled the paint. SAW Pistol Grip also painted green.

DSA short muzzle brake appears permanently attached, but a neat job with no evidence of weld or solder.

Argentine Barrel with bayonet lug ground off by hand-uneven, not lathe-turned. Shoulder shows evidence of peening but still unscrewed by hand with little effort - 30-40 ft pounds estimated. Rusty sludge on threads.

Oversize/elongated hole on gas block for hand guard screw. Import Austrian gas piston and gas plug, Gas plug hard chrome worn. Inch pattern gas tube excessively loose. Heavy carbon “blow-by” buildup inside gas block at gas plug location suggests one or the other is excessively worn and should be replaced.

Crush and impact marks from a punch on gas block around deformed gas block retaining pin, two indexing stake marks and glue or loc-tite at gas -block indicate it has been removed from barrel. Gas port measures .118-.119” which is perhaps a bit larger than necessary for the 18” barrel- a .116” is usually sufficient, although I will not say this is wrong, I prefer to keep it as small as possible to still cycle on a 3.5 gas setting.

Bolt carrier pitted. Bolt and carrier nicely marked with receiver serial number.

DSA aluminum top cover, DSA AL cocking handle, DSA aluminum lower receiver, DSA hammer/trigger/sear, extractor spring covered in emulsified oil/water, hinge pin has copper antisieze on it.

Headspace is correct - closes on a GO, will not close on a NOGO

Summary. Loose barrel renders the gun unsafe to operate. Unlikely additional peening of barrel shoulder will result in a sufficient torque reading. Can probably have shoulder set back and used with an inch-pattern breaching washer, however I believe the combination of a loose gas tube, questionable block, poor gas block to barrel junction, and oversize gas port would be better addressed by replacing the unit with a new Brazilian barrel/block/tube factory assembled from Dealer’s Warehouse for approximately $150. Labor rates for assembling worn/substandard parts are the same as for new parts, with no guarantee on results. I will not fire a rifle with a loose barrel to evaluate functioning.

After it became clear to me that this was going to end up in the legal system I requested Gunplumber to send me the bad parts. In the course of removing these parts more problems with the build were discovered and his addendum is below.

9-15-2003

I removed the brake so I could send the barrel back to you

There is no evidence of silver solder - no melting solder under heat.

There is evidence that this brake was only loc-tited on (distinctive odor of
loc-tite, crumbly texture) (Note, when I received the barrel I found that GP had placed a plastic bag over the muzzle to preserve his findings)


Gas tube cracked at threads - unserviceable.

Gas nut spring swaged in place - not removable without damage.


My email to George Gouger after receiving the evaluation:

9-25-2003

George,

You now have the eval and I’ll send the pics to you after this goes out to you. If you want to settle this then send me a proposal addressing all the deficiencies in the eval and how you would like to address them. I’m willing to help mitigate the cost to you but I need to see some movement on your part. It has to be more than “I’ll send a barrel to GP”, there’s more issues with the gun than that and I need to know what you’re proposing. I would not make a decision on such loose wording from anyone. Do you not believe the report? Do you think the photo’s were doctored? I took the gun to the last WAC show to show 2 well respected FAL filers and asked their opinion on the build, as with GP, I would not tell them who built it. They came to the same conclusions that GP did. Look George, I’m not lying to you about the problems with this build, you know that, and I’m not trying to screw you or ruin your business, you also know that, facts are facts and the gun has major problems. This has the potential for a major legal impact on you and this is something I don’t want to initiate, this is not a threat, this is not boasting, this is a serious fact. I repeat, I do not want to take this course of action, it’s serious, the consequences would be far reaching and a last resort that I don’t take lightly. So again I’m urging you to please get back to me with some kind of proposal we can start working with. Read over the eval, look at the pictures and get back to me.

Ben

So there you have it folks, let the circus begin!

Last edited by hongkong3; September 23, 2003 at 19:53.
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Old September 23, 2003, 16:21   #2
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Thumbs down

Wish you luck in getting a solution to your problem.


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Old September 23, 2003, 17:40   #3
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This is a bad deal indeed! This is also not the Gouger I know, so I hope he has an aprentice working in the shop helping him with builds...that would explain it. My experiences with George have been favorable, however he always overshoots his estimated time of completion at least it was my experience.

I would be seriously pissed about the parts! The build you can always get fixed, but the parts.... Still, its a real shame it came to airing it in public. Hope George will work with you to get this problem resolved.
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Old September 23, 2003, 18:06   #4
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Its the GG I know, it seems that George builds both the best and worse rifle's, If your a board big shot or a LEO you get a great build, and if your just Joe Blow you get shit on!

From my experience being a customer, George is the best at B.S. and his skill at rifle building sucks unless you have your head about two feet up his butt. I have warned people before only to be attacked by his lacky's like Cadillac, and Bill Woodward.

Hello Cadillac as its only a matter of time before you show to defend GG my fight with you is done. Iam sending some money for raffle tickets and I think your doing a good job there. We will just have to agree to disagree on GG.

Good luck HK3, take it all the way!
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Old September 23, 2003, 18:21   #5
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I have read the above well written replies.

Not my personal conflict.

May good prevail.
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Old September 23, 2003, 19:15   #6
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hongkong3
I also wish you luck on ending the problem to your satisfaction.
This is a surprising report.
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Old September 23, 2003, 19:20   #7
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"You sound like a very difficult customer. Let George do what he said he would with your gun, make it right." "don't try and spread him over a barrel"

Difficult? By GG supplying a NON compliant FH barrel, let alone a loose one, --- you label Ben as a difficult customer?? Ben wanting his rifle to be legal and safe, you label him as difficult?? GET REAL!!!

I just hope all comes out right for both men involved.
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Old September 23, 2003, 19:36   #8
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I merely email GG once asking him to do a build for me. 3-4 years ago. I told him what I wanted, and mentioned that I wanted the lower renumbered to match the upper "like gunplumber does." He shit down my throat and told me to go get gunplumber to do it just at mentioning another smiths name. He told me he wounldn't build a rifle for me. I mailed him back asking if he thought I was someone else or something because I could not understand his caustic reaction to my email. All this crap about how many builds he does for his "government agencys" and the like. Didn't impress me. Didn't impress him that I emailed him back asking if he mistook me for someone else. He then sent an abusive email back calling me a troll.

Nice guy. I don't need that shit. Rich@CGW or ARS or VOW or AZEX are who I will deal with.

I must say, I thoroughly enjoyed this god of a gunsmith going down in flames with his pal Dwight Williams. Seems he was right up GG's alley.

Hong Kong 3, take it to the wall buddy, even if it costs more than the rifle. I am sick to death of some of the A-Holes out there who take your money like they are doing you a favor and have no regard for quality, safety or customer service. Its like an S&M thing. Pay top dollar to be treated like shite.

Post all the GG is great replies you want. It makes no difference how nice your rifles are. This guy's is shite and he has posted a thoughtful, well written, and factual review.

George wrote this review.......Hong Kong didn't.
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Old September 23, 2003, 19:40   #9
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I don't have a horse in this race either, but I will say that one half of the evidence was well presented. I hope this doesnt turn into one of the "XXX must be in the right because he purchased/sold YYY from me" or "AAA wouldn't do that, I have 4 trillion of his builds and they run like a scalded cat."

I hope that the other half of the evidence is presented though before any ugly statements get made.
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Old September 23, 2003, 21:09   #10
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Well, since I personally examined this rifle I feel I should post what I saw.

FWIW: I have Delt with George (and Darleen) only for one transaction ( I purchased a kit from them) Let me say that I was treated fairly, the kit arrived in a timely manner and was in fairly good shape. This is the only dealing I have had with those folks down in Oregon. I have no complaints.

The rifle on the other hand was a real piece of work. As Ben said I didn't know who built the thing (and I have no axes to grind) I have talked with Ben on a number of occasions and consider him a friend (So, this may make some think I am biased.) Well, so be it. This is what I saw. The rifle had dark green furniture that looked well painted I didn't see any issues with it except the glaring streak running from one end of the buttstock to the other. It was clearly some kind of solvent stain (which could have been cleaned up by a competant smith/painter)
The parking on the rifle in general was so-so, don't know if it was manganese or what. But I did notice a couple of wear spots around the gas block. I also noted what looked like vice marks on the gas block as well. The biggest issue of all was that the barrel could be hand tightened or loosened in the receiver. There were clear peening marks on the shoulder and I had no doubt that the barrel, if tightened would clock past TDC. My inspection was done somewhat quickly and with no tools to disassemble (except for a screw driver to remove the handguards) So, as you can tell Gunplumber did a much better job of finding many more problems with this rifle.

I to have heard many good things about Georges work and have, during my one experience been satisfied with my transaction. So, I can not speak for anything else written. I did see many of the e-mail exchanges and was quite surprised to see it get this far. Both parties seemed to be polite and business like. However, I must say there was a decided lack of communication from George when it came to explaining how this rifle came to have so many problems.

Sorry this is a bit long winded, but I wanted to be as fair as I could be given what I have personally seen.

A couple of things that everyone should keep in mind, past all the postering.
1) The rifle had a non-compliant muzzle device (because it was attached with loc-tite. AN BATFE no-no)
2) The rifle was sent out with firecontrol parts that allowed it to fire more then one round from the pull of the trigger. This is also a no-no on the BATFEs list.
3) The rifle was sent out with a barrel that was LOOSE in the receiver.
4) The rifle had a gas block that was secured with a broken pin.
5) The rifle was never test fired (or if it was it was sent out knowingly with these problems)
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Last edited by Bearwhositshere; September 23, 2003 at 21:15.
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Old September 23, 2003, 21:33   #11
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Thanks for having the balls to post this.

My one dealing with GG was less than satisfactory, but I did get my money back.
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Old September 23, 2003, 21:58   #12
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good luck with resolving this Hongkong3
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Old September 23, 2003, 22:09   #13
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Thanks for the post. Even the best make mistakes but the way mistakes are handled is very important.

I once used a American Pistol Smith Guild gunsmith who had a "I can do no wrong" attitude and screwed up my pistol, I wasted $800 plus on this jerks work. Count yourself lucky and write off the loss.
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Old September 23, 2003, 23:15   #14
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Most of you here know my story and I am not going to keep dragging things up but the way my rifle was thrown together, If you could get the cocking lever to go past the lower it would still not feed from the mag, I don't think my rifle was ever test fired either.
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Old September 24, 2003, 00:12   #15
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I hope that you can get satisfaction re: your disasterous build. No-one should have to accept without complaint any work as shoddy as that which you describe. And no-one, regardless of the quality (good or bad) of their personal relationship with an "artisan", should receive less than the quality work they have paid for.

I have heard of only a few examples of such serious complaints about work from George's shop. The majority of his customers (and there are many) are more than satisified. Some of the finest work I have ever seen was done by George - and it can be truly beautiful! Yet the problems you describe are not small, or simple, or isolated to a single item. It sounds as though the entire rifle is a disaster. Even the finish described does not sound at all like the very durable "Midnight Black" for which George is justifiably well known.

Was the work actually completed by George, or by a "flunky" in his shop - I don't know. But even if it was not done by George himself, the quality (or lack thereof) does not speak well for Double G and is the responsibility of the man with his name on the sign.

It is true that George is also well known for taking a long time with many projects. Maybe we have just been lucky, but for us it has always been worth the wait. It is truly regrettable that your experience has been so different. I hope that you are soon able to find satisfactory resolution to this problem.

John
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Old September 24, 2003, 00:25   #16
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Very interesting. I don't know either party involved, however, one side seems well documented with alot of facts and back ups. Lets face it, we all screw up here and there, but how you handle it after is where it matters the most.

Hope it works out for both of you.
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Old September 24, 2003, 05:35   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by sparky
Most of you here know my story and I am not going to keep dragging things up but the way my rifle was thrown together, If you could get the cocking lever to go past the lower it would still not feed from the mag, I don't think my rifle was ever test fired either.
I've searched your posts to see what kind of problem you had with your Gouger build and the outcome but found nothing. Contact me off line if you don't want to post here.
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Old September 24, 2003, 08:06   #18
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I have had work done by GG, on a .45 auto several years ago and he did a fine job.
Now I did get the usual sales pitch as I have heard from other smiths that indicates they walk on water - but most fall a little short of that particular miracle.

As someone already posted a vast majority of the report about GG have been good at least, if not glowing.

I do hope this matter gets resolved justly and also hope we are not witness to the self destruction of George and his business.

That would be a shame.

Posts like this rightly need to be made.
IMHO it was done well to include pertinent facts and info, as to allay the usual armchair quarter backing and second guessing that some on this board do so quickly.
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Old September 24, 2003, 08:42   #19
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Does this explain why I can't get an e-mail back from George? I e-mailed him a question about a completely unrelated matter and it was not a complaint. I just wanted to know a bit more about the R1/R3 kits that he sold. I have not received a response in over 3 weeks. I guess he is afraid I'm after something. Either thar, or he flew the coop (kidding)
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Old September 24, 2003, 08:46   #20
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HK3 heres one link after this I think it went to dumping brass.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...threadid=19206
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Old September 24, 2003, 09:55   #21
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As was stated by another member I also do not have a horse in this race but I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle of any disagreement!Since Mr Gouger will not reply I guess I must go with the customer.
I know I once posted about a problem with Casey Elliot and was dumped on big time by several of his protectors, since I was a new member I ate crow and made an apology but I should have stuck to my guns since the problem was never corrected and Ol! Casey never responded to many other members "wheres Casey" posts.
So we know there are problems with some of the advertisers on the board and this is the way to cull them! (BYE BYE BUDDY)
I hope the problem is resolved but my gut tells me Mr. Gouger will not make it right and my gut has saved my butt many times Regards Bausch
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Old September 24, 2003, 10:14   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by faltothebone
Very interesting. I don't know either party involved, however, one side seems well documented with alot of facts and back ups. Lets face it, we all screw up here and there, but how you handle it after is where it matters the most.

Hope it works out for both of you.

I do not consider the multiple problems with this build a "mistake" or a "screwup", both those terms mean that it was un-intentional and the facts indicate to me that what George Geoger did was intentional, both times. He intentionally substituted a bag of bad parts for a "nice kit" that I paid for and twice sent me an illeagal and unsafe gun, this is not some little oops I missed that "mistake" or "screwup". And how this all turns out for him is not any concern of mine.
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Old September 24, 2003, 12:52   #23
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HK3,

As I stated, how a mistake is handled is what matters and the fact that he's not "handling" it right (seems like he never did) does not make GG look so good at this point. I once had a so-called "smith" lock-tite my MB a few months ago. He said he has done many without any problem. After I told him it was an illegal application and after a few lengthy heated discussions, he offered to fix it, which I refused because if he did not know it was legal to begin with, why should I trust him again? He was not a FALsmith like GG is supposed to be, so I can understand why you feel like it was not a mistake or screwup.

My last post was not intended to make it sound like he made a "mistake" and I apologize if you thought I meant that. As I said, I don't know him and I really don't give a S#!t if he's God's gift to the FAL world because if he does not address this problem (which you've well documented I must add), I, along with many others I assume, will simply look for other smiths to do it correctly.

Hope it works out for you because what happened was plain WRONG.
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Old September 24, 2003, 13:43   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by faltothebone
HK3,

As I stated, how a mistake is handled is what matters and the fact that he's not "handling" it right (seems like he never did) does not make GG look so good at this point. I once had a so-called "smith" lock-tite my MB a few months ago. He said he has done many without any problem. After I told him it was an illegal application and after a few lengthy heated discussions, he offered to fix it, which I refused because if he did not know it was legal to begin with, why should I trust him again? He was not a FALsmith like GG is supposed to be, so I can understand why you feel like it was not a mistake or screwup.

My last post was not intended to make it sound like he made a "mistake" and I apologize if you thought I meant that. As I said, I don't know him and I really don't give a S#!t if he's God's gift to the FAL world because if he does not address this problem (which you've well documented I must add), I, along with many others I assume, will simply look for other smiths to do it correctly.

Hope it works out for you because what happened was plain WRONG.

No apology needed, I just wanted to clarify where "mistake" is on my scale of performance.
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Old September 24, 2003, 15:45   #25
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hongkong3, you sir did a very well presented case, with all of your ducks in a row, backed up by several witnesses and a very well respected smith. From what you have posted, you gave George several opportunities to correct the probem BEFORE bringing it to the board.

I was recently the victim of an unwarrented attack by a board member,7.62FMJ, who went about posting a "problem" the wrong way. He made reference to it on the first page of your thread. Instead of contacting me or asking anyone else to take a look at the "problem" he jumped in with both feet and was promptly stomped on by other board members. Now he continues to whine about it, and still hasn't contacted me.

You have handled this very well. Dan.
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Old September 24, 2003, 15:46   #26
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Originally posted by cliffy109
Does this explain why I can't get an e-mail back from George? I e-mailed him a question about a completely unrelated matter and it was not a complaint. I just wanted to know a bit more about the R1/R3 kits that he sold. I have not received a response in over 3 weeks. I guess he is afraid I'm after something. Either thar, or he flew the coop (kidding)

Welcome to the club, he won't even accept the last Certified letter I sent him requesting documents related to this mess. I had to resort to having a Subpoena issued for the documents and since the Sheriff has already served him once he won't be able to refuse service.
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Old September 24, 2003, 21:01   #27
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I, like everyone else except HK3 and GG don't have a mule in this race (I just couldn't use horse again). That being said if this happened to me I would only hope that I could maintain the patience, and articulate the situation as well as you seem to have done HK3. I agree with you 100%. I say to GG: 2 strikes - your out. Why give GG another chance to inflict more damage to the rifle? My grandpa always said "the dog bites you once, shame on the dog; the dog bites you twice, shame on the man." Why would HK3 want to get bitten a third time? I have a real hard time understanding how someone can defend this smith's actions. It is one thing to say the guy usually does good work and you can't fathom this happening based on his reputation, but blindly defending his crappy work is reminiscent of the SAI debacle. When someone reveals a smith's example of poor workmanship and gets shouted down and derided for "daring to besmerch the name of the Jedi Master," it allows for this kind of poor treatment and unprofessional conduct to continue unhindered. By HK3 telling/warning us about this problem he is providing a service to the other FalFiles members and he is not a being a troll. That is what the review forum is for, not just for ass-kissing when we think a smith created another example of his "museum quality workmanship." I certainly don't want to get into a pissing match here but upon reading the thread on full-auto.com it was painfully obvious who the troll was that crawled out from under the bridge on that thread as well as this one. Like someone else has stated, GG created this review and not HK3. I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.
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Old September 24, 2003, 21:36   #28
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I do have one question: Why, if you have initiated a legal action, are you presenting your case in such minute detail to the court of public (mob? ) opinion instead of waiting for a legal determination? Might it not have been wiser to simply state that you had a totally unsatisfactory experience with Double G - so unsatisfactory that you have turned to the courts for resolution, and that you will post notice of the outcome when the court has decided?

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Old September 24, 2003, 21:51   #29
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Interesting story...

I see all this "calling out" of GG and his continued silence. Well, I'm no lawyer (but I watch a lot of Court TV), and as soon as the words "lawsuit", "sue", and "court" are mentioned, I would tell my mythical defendant to shut the **** up, and keep quiet. Perhaps if those words were not thrown around with so much vigor, GG could answer the accusations. Now that a lawsuit is in the works, silence is recommended by any good attorney.
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Old September 24, 2003, 22:43   #30
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Like I said, I'm not particularly close to GG. I've never so much as bought a gun part from him, nor sold one to him.

Because he's got what amounts to a very dissatisfied customer really means nothing to me.

But the fact remains that this could've been RESOLVED. A long time ago. I think some motives need to be questioned, starkly and unflinchingly.

I had one convo with GG on the phone about it. There were some other things that GG asked me not to talk about regarding this clown and his continuing dissatisfaction.

I have no idea why GG isn't on this thread. Were I him, I would be.

Ever hear the phrase "I'd rather light a candle than curse your darkness"?

I offered to light that candle, and had no clue who the builder was. A safe, functional rifle is worth much more to the shooter (of normal mind and motivation) than all this vitriol.

Did the "scathing" review he had done by (he who must not be named) get his rifle fixed? Could he be out shooting that rifle instead of sullying up this board right now? Is the continued braying of ONE customer, one of hundreds and hundreds over the past 30some years (Keep in mind that GG has been building FALs since me and the other guys were still eating our boogies) slightly out of kilter to anyone but me?

I know some of you have issues with GG. I know none of you are above letting that color your "perception" of who you are inclined to believe. Since I have never seen this rifle, I can at least be honest enough to be sure of one thing, only GG and HKtroll know how that rifle was constructed and how it left GGs shop. None of the rest of us do.

Some people would rather complain than get things resolved.

D.
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Old September 24, 2003, 22:56   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by cadillac
I do have one question: Why, if you have initiated a legal action, are you presenting your case in such minute detail to the court of public (mob? ) opinion instead of waiting for a legal determination? Might it not have been wiser to simply state that you had a totally unsatisfactory experience with Double G - so unsatisfactory that you have turned to the courts for resolution, and that you will post notice of the outcome when the court has decided?

If I would have just posted that I had a unsatisfactory experience with George Gouger people would be accusing me of stirring up crap, especially if I also said that I had initiated legal action without providing any details. I prefer to get the details out up front instead of having to respond to all the emotional ranting that would have followed and I never thought of "Reviews" as a court of public (mob? )
Just for the record, it was George Gouger that turned one of my letters over to his lawyer, Jim Walsh on 7-21-03, so in fact he started the legal proceedings, I just responded.

Edited to add:
By the way George Gouger said it was ok to go public with this,
"If you want to "go public", that's O.K. too". GG 7-8-03


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Old September 26, 2003, 08:55   #32
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Thank you for unlocking this thread, thats one the things that makes this board the best, no cover ups.

I am going to cut a check right now for a couple of raffle tickets.
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Old September 26, 2003, 10:12   #33
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Originally posted by sparky
... thats one the things that makes this board the best, no cover ups.
Hmmm...
Well there is about 6 posts missing since it was unlocked.
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Old September 26, 2003, 10:23   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pa. Patriot


Hmmm...
Well there is about 6 posts missing since it was unlocked.
Based on an edit I see, it appears someone may have had second thoughts about an early post and cleaned up or consolidated their response. $.02
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Old September 26, 2003, 10:45   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by shootist87122


Based on an edit I see, it appears someone may have had second thoughts about an early post and cleaned up or consolidated their response. $.02
Jen has removed approx 25 posts that she felt were inappropiate to prevent this heading towards a flame fest. I appreciate her efforts to keep this thread from degenerating, but I think she revoved some very telling posts. This is her board and by being here I defer to her judgment. Other boards would have squashed this thread after my very first post. If you're refering to the "edits" in my posts, all I did was add a "and" and "not" to make it read correctly.
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Old September 26, 2003, 11:35   #36
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"telling" indeed.
She made the wrong decision. IMO
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:08   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pa. Patriot
"telling" indeed.
She made the wrong decision. IMO
But then again, if this were "another board", the entire thread would have been deleted, at least ten posters would have been banned for life, four would have been threatened with lawsuit, two would be chastised at the range by a highly trained Navy frogman, and the smith in question would be named "Smith of the Year".

Now if you have a dog in this fight, fine. Otherwise your contribution of knee jerk criticism of this board and the admin detracts from the original thread subject matter and has no use being here as did the bickering, name calling posts that were removed.

At least this thread is still active.

And to the rest, I can understand the displeasure of having someone you know raked over the coals. Unfair? Well GG can post his side to the story or remain silent as he most likely should if legal actions are pending on this matter.
I would just hope that the finger pointing would cease until this matter is resolved. At the very least, let's stay with the subject.
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:09   #38
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to quote PA Patriot:

""telling" indeed.
She made the wrong decision. IMO"

I agree.

Every time I am ready to contribute, to help out the board I come across some sort of creative editing and/or censorship, deleting, etc... Call it what you like. This is not the first time. If someone says something they should be held accountable for it. If they change their mind they can apologize or whatever.

Removing, deleting, editing, only covers up actual fact and reality.

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Old September 26, 2003, 12:16   #39
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to quote FALTITUDE:

"Now if you have a dog in this fight, fine. Otherwise your contribution of knee jerk criticism of this board and the admin detracts from the original thread subject matter and has no use being here as did the bickering, name calling posts that were removed. "

I agree with this as well, and apologize for "thread-jacking."

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Old September 26, 2003, 12:34   #40
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First, I didn't kill the thread, trim the thread or reactivate the thread again but I did just now take the time to re-read every single post that was trimmed from the original thread content.

From looking over every single post that was contributed and that was trimmed, none had any bearing on the subject matter that had any use to either party involved in this situation. More than half of the posts were directed toward Derek or DABTL or responses from themselves. It had lost focus and turned into a four-way name calling flame. The remainder of the posts were "I don't have a dog in this fight but I would never...." type of posts that ALSO HAD LOST the focus to keep the subject matter intact. Is there a specific post that was trimmed that you folks are pissed about?
I'll also add that there may have been edits or posts that have been deleted by the original poster, that of which we have no control over.
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:43   #41
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I followed this thread from the beginning and don't see any missing info that was pertinent to the facts of this thread. Just some pissing contests.
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:45   #42
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Quote:
I'll also add that there may have been edits or posts that have been deleted by the original poster, that of which we have no control over. [/B]
Just for the record, I have NOT deleted any posts, and as I posted earlier I edited to only to add 2 words in a post. I would have prefered to let all the posts stand as they were. Although I don't agree with the deletions, it's not my board and I will respect the decision that was made.
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:52   #43
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Well, what's your dog in this fight? What makes YOUR opinion matter in this?

You used your reply to attack the "other board". But isn't THAT detracting from the thread???
No need to go into the "knee jerk" postering to defend the admin every time someone disagrees with the actions of said admin. I'm not a "other board" operative or some such sillyness.

I certainly won't defend the other board (or this one), that's the personal business of the admins that should have been KEPT personal business. (IMO)


I simply disagree with the posts that were deleted - period. No flame, no need to get off subject, no "knee jerk criticism of this board and the admin "

I just think it was the wrong decision . - if you have a problem with that so be it.
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Old September 26, 2003, 12:57   #44
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For what it's worth and to me it meant a lot. I got one of George's R1 kits and the barrel was pitted at the muzzle. I sent it back and asked if he had anything better. It took about a month which wasn't out of line but he sent my a very nice
Belgian replacement that I got yesterday. This is the third time I've had dealings with George and all have gone well. Like I said, for what it's worth.
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Old September 26, 2003, 13:05   #45
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Pa.Partiot, I took your posts as being overly critical of this board and the admins decision to trim the posts that had no bearing on the original thread subject matter or anything that would benefit either party involved. My apology is extended to you if you can understand my position of just wanting to keep the peace and wanting to keep this thread open. My post you refer to may have been directed to you personally of which I shoud have considered making it a generic reference to keep this thread on track and to deter those who think we are bent on censoring at the drop of a hat.

Let's see if there may be a remedy to the "missing posts" issue. Possibly the addition of them into a DB thread? Would that be of any use or help? Trust me folks, the posts that were trimmed were useless other than pure flames against members of this board. Do y'all really want them activated again?
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Old September 26, 2003, 13:52   #46
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Faltitude: "Now if you have a dog in this fight, fine. Otherwise your contribution of knee jerk criticism of this board and the admin detracts from the original thread subject matter and has no use being here as did the bickering, name calling posts that were removed. "



What about where Derek called HK "HKtroll" and a "clown"? It's still there. Should that still be up? Does Derek have a dog in this race, or any say in this at all?

HK paid his money, wasn't satified, gave GG more than ample opportunity to make things right with him, with no joy. He had a board member and a reputable gunsmith evaluate the weapon, documented everything, and presented it to us. Has he done anything to be called names?

Derek has a problem. If a post doesn't praise him, he considers it an attack. If a guy like HK doesn't take him up on his offer he starts e-stalking him. I'm not telling anyone how to do anything. But, fair is fair. Derek is becoming abusive to people on various gun boards. I don't think it's right to let it happen here and something should be done about it.
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Old September 26, 2003, 13:55   #47
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Ha! I don't have a dog in this fight, or even .02 worth of .02. I got a good deal from George, but this one is up to him to answer. As for the rest of it, take it to DB. I respect Pa. Patriot and his opinions, and I'm sure he will complain at that other place when posts and threads are deleted. I want to read the whole, ugly mess.
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Old September 26, 2003, 14:01   #48
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Fine then.. I removed the flames and personal conflicts / name calling among members many of whom were either not involved or just looking to get into a pissing contest. Some posts may have been missed in the original split of this thread and I did not edit any that were left and that were relevant. If that isn't acceptable.. this thread is again locked.

No moderators / admins other than myself have done anything to any posts within this thread since it was reopened and the only removals were made by myself or the original posters who can, if they so choose to do so, remove or edit their own posts.
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Old September 26, 2003, 14:07   #49
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capman: The only editing I EVER do has a tag line within the post [Admin Note: Edited for insert reason here] or something to that effect stating why it was edited. I can count the number of other peoples posts that I have edited in the past year without using all the fingers on my right hand. I don't like editing period and only do so if it's absolutely needed. This forum is "Reviews" it isn't Dumping Brass or "Pissing Contests". That which did not pertain to the review was removed and archived elsewhere.
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Old September 26, 2003, 14:14   #50
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Flame on..

The only post I see that had any real merit was the first part of DaveD's post which was dumped because of the additional comment at the end.
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