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Old May 23, 2007, 14:43   #1
Kay Tue
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FAL Pistol "K2P1 & K2P2"

FAL Pistol The “K2P1” & “K2P2” Built By K2unit




This is my first attempt at contributing to the collective knowledge of this forum. If my posts or photo files are too large, the moderator can feel free to change them as needed. I normally just lurk and soak up the information posted by the members and search for topics I’m interested in for my next build. I thought on this topic I might be able to contribute.

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Old May 23, 2007, 15:05   #2
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I’ve built several FAL’s in various Rifle/Carbine configurations and a couple of Form 1 SBR’s. My most recent interest has turned to building a form 1 SBR “OSW” FAL with a 11” short barrel and side folding stock. I particularly like the looks of the continuous rail using the DSA extended top cover and quad rail hand guard. As with the other SBR’s builds, I start with a virgin receiver as a form 4473 “pistol”. My basic strategy is to start building each gun as a pistol to work out the bugs as I file and wait for a Form 1 approval.



Oh, that's a sweet thing!

Next I bought the front quad rail hand guard (PART# US21FASC) and figured I would just machine one of the extra standard barrels I had to length and move the gas block to where it need to fit the quad rail. When the quad rail arrived I quickly realized that the taper diameter on a standard barrel is to small in the position where the OSW gas block should be. I had two choices, buy the correct barrel from DSA (lack of funds at the immediate time) or modify an expensive Izzy heavy barrel (such a waste of a beautiful heavy barrel). The decision; While waiting for the funds to buy a real OSW barrel and since I had a bunch of extra L1A1 & FAL parts left over from other builds, the “K2P1” FAL pistol project was born!

While doing the background research to build the FAL pistol, I found very few pictures (Gun Plummer’s FAL SBR with the MP5 is a classic!) and minimal construction information, which essentially said, “Just go for it”. So this is my attempt to put a little more info out there, if anybody else is interested in building one. I hope it’s useful!


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Old May 23, 2007, 15:14   #3
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The first issue I tackled was, where would the gas block position be located on a standard barrel if I just cut the diameter needed to seat the gas block wherever it intersected the barrel taper. Chucking up the barrel in a three-jaw lathe and using a live center on the barrel cartridge end, I carefully measured the existing gas block barrel diameter and set the digital read out to .692 inches dia. I ran the carriage feed until it intersected the barrel taper and cut the barrel at .692 diameter approximately 1.5” in length. The gas block I was using was about 1” long, so when I eventually pressed it into place, it would bottom out on the newly formed step that was created from the machining operation. On the barrel, this gas block stop is 6.5” from the bolt face at .692" diameter. The gas block is then drilled and pinned to the barrel



I then cut the barrel to 12.0” in overall length (bolt face to barrel crown). This allowed me to maintain a visual reference of the original gas port hole and use it to clock the new gas block and drill the new gas port hole. I measured the original gas port hole as 3/32” or .094 so that’s the size I used figuring if it was good enough for the original!



Once the gas block was pressed into place and clocked relative to the original gas port hole, I removed the sight post assembly and used the gas block as a guide to drill the new hole. I would recommend to others that you start smaller on the hole size and work up. After firing this for a while now, it works best with the gas regulator wide open and there is definitely flame-age coming out the regulator. Starting smaller could really help fine tune the beast. I’ll leave it to others to figure out what size the hole should be with the regulator set around 7 as is normal.


Above: K2P2 barrel with L1A1 Gas Block Below: K2P1 barrel with FAL Gas Block

Last edited by Kay Tue; August 12, 2007 at 19:41.
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Old May 23, 2007, 15:24   #4
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The best way I’ve found to cut the gas tube to length is to screw it into the gas block and pin it in place. The end of the gas tube should be about1.6” from the end of the barrel. You want the final position of the small end of the gas tube nut to be just short of the barrel flange. This makes the gas tube/nut assembly clear the receiver and still allows the barrel to be screwed on. My gas tube is approximately 4.75” long.




I wanted to maintain the use of the spring on the gas piston, based on the info I’ve read about Gun Plummer and others bending gas pistons with their pistols. I figured it might help, it couldn’t hurt, and I could always remove it later if I needed. Looking at the stock pistons you’ll see three bumps ….not sure why, but they were taking up a lot of the space where a spring could go and more importantly it limited the length the piston could travel in a shortened pistol gas tube. I decided to remove two of the bumps and have the spring ride against the piston. It turns out that with this modification the piston is capable of traveling the full distance that the bolt carrier travels. When the gun is assembled, the piston should be flush with the inside face of the receiver. The piston is 6.6 “




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Old May 23, 2007, 15:37   #5
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I cut a standard wood hand guard measuring careful so the rear metal pieces would line up with the hand guard ring. Then re-attached the rear metal pieces to form a new front hand guard.



After assembling all the parts, I took it out to the range with a full set of tools figuring I would probably spend the next few weekends tinkering with it. Much to my surprise it worked nearly perfect from the beginning!!! I tweaked the gas regulator and like I said it prefers to be wide open. I eventually added a muzzle break as the barrel definitely rises when shot as a pistol.



I can say the without a doubt this is the loudest and most fire breathing gun I’ve ever seen!!! With 3-foot fireball, it definitely gets everybody’s attention when it’s fired. I now call this configuration the “K2P1” spoofing the L1A1 & C2A1 rifle designations.

The 12" barrel "K2P1" FAL pistol next to others for size reference:


SBR AR-15 w/8.5" Barrel


Uzi carbine w/ 16" Barrel

Last edited by Kay Tue; May 23, 2007 at 17:53.
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Old May 23, 2007, 15:48   #6
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A month goes by and I still don’t have the money for the OSW barrel and several gun buddies asked “how short of a barrel and you make it?” Hmmm good question, let’s find out and thus the “K2P2” was born. (Good thing I have a few extra barrels and gas system parts available)

I basically set out to have the shortest barrel reasonably possible (did I say reasonable????). The cartridge itself is about 3” long (2.785), so I made a few arbitrary assumptions. The bullet needed to travel at least an inch before the gas port hole and I wanted about four inches of barrel past the gas port. I truly believe that some people who have had problem guns after cutting the barrel shorter (Carbines & Pistols) may have simply cut the barrel to close to the gas port hole, not allowing the piston enough time to operate before the bullet exits the barrel. Also the bent pistons may also be a result of having to then open the gas port hole large enough to cycle properly with a shorter barrel past the gas port hole. I’ve standardized on a minimum of about 4 inches and have had no problems with cycling or bent pistons. That makes the overall barrel length for this configuration at 8.25”




I set the gas block stop at 4.125” and the barrel length 8.25”. I repeated the technique described above with a few minor changes. I left the barrel long so I could clock the gas block relative to the original gas hole. Once I drilled the gas hole and pined everything in place I went back and cut the barrel to length. Then finished it with an 11-degree crown, as I did not want the additional length of a muzzle brake. The gas tube length was cut to 2.52”; it’s just barely long enough to get both the gas tube nut and regulator nut in place during assembly.


Top to bottom: 21" Std. Barrel, DSA "OSW" Barrel, K2P1 12" Barrel, K2P2 8.25" Barrel

Last edited by Kay Tue; May 25, 2007 at 17:45.
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Old May 23, 2007, 15:54   #7
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I was initially concerned that with the fact that the gas piston couldn’t stroke the entire length that the bolt carrier travels. I removed the spring, which allowed it to travel farther, but still not the same distance the bolt carrier travels. I then figured that maybe as long as the piston could stroke far enough to unlock the bolt, maybe the inertia would carry the bolt carrier the distance it need to cycle correctly. The piston is 4.28” long and does not use a spring so now the bolt carrier and recoil spring force the piston forward.


Top to bottom: Std FAL Piston & Spring, DSA "OSW", K2P1, K2P2

I cut an old plastic front hand guard and removed rear part that hooks into the hand guard ring. By simply tightening the front attachment screw, the hand guard stays in place. To finish things up, I machined a small aluminum piece as a cover for the rear of the lower receiver and put on a set of para sights.



With the butt plate cover, I started with 1.25” diameter aluminum rod and machined flats on either side of the round, the width of the lower receiver matching the two-step contour. Once I had the two parallel flats, I re-positioned the part in the vise and machined the surface that would be in contact with the back of the lower receiver. You’ll notice a little rectangular projection that fits into the notch in the lower that prevents the butt plate from rotating. Overall thickness about .6" from projection to bottom of the round. I also needed to machine a deep cavity to clear the rear of the frame lock in the open position. In my case, I had a Para-lower that already had the notch machined for the folding stock. If you have a standard lower you may have to cut off the butt stock tang and machine the cavity notch or incorporate part of the tang into the butt cover. From there, I drilled and tapped a 6-32 hole into the rear and perpendicular of the surface face of the lower receiver. This hole is about .4” from the centerline of the frame lock hole, and as close as can be to the return spring tube hole. I drilled a matching clearance hole thru the butt cover and used a countersunk flat head screw. Paint black.


For those unaware about the differences between a folding stock Para and a fixed stock, as far as the recoil spring set-up:

The standard bolt/carrier recoil spring is inside the return spring tube, which is hanging off the end of the lower receiver and normally buried in the fixed stock, roughly similar to an AR15. As the bolt assembly cycles, the bolt carrier rat-tail presses against a plunger mounted on the end of the recoil spring compressing it for return.

The folding stock Para set-up is used on this pistol configuration because the recoil spring was moved for the folding stock and is now mounted onto the inside of the top cover at one end and partially buried through the bolt carrier at the other. No rat-tail bolt, no return spring tube. I personally think this is a cleaner solution for the recoil spring in general and have often thought about trying it on a standard fix stock. The Para bolt carriers and top covers are available from both DSA and Falcon.

Top to bottom: Para top cover with recoil spring and bolt assembly. Standard Bolt assembly with rat tail. Standard recoil spring and plunger above a lower recv'r with the return spring tube .

Last edited by Kay Tue; June 01, 2007 at 17:28.
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Old May 23, 2007, 16:03   #8
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Again much to my surprise it worked perfectly first time I fired it! Did I mention GIANT FLAMES and VERY LOUD!!!!??? It’s a bit heavy to fire like a true pistol, two hands and it’s manageable, with one hand it’s nearly un controllable. Most people end up shooting from the mid chest without particularly aiming as the flame and noise is most of the fun. My next step is to set up a bungee cord style sling and I’d really like to add a green laser that can be seen during the daylight. That’s the setup needed, green laser and point to shoot!

K2P2 w/8.25" barrel next to others for reference:


Tasmanian Devil SAP


SBR Krink

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Old May 23, 2007, 16:11   #9
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As you can see from the pics, I finally got the OSW barrel……Still waiting on the Form 1 SBR Stamp !!! I hope that I’ve given enough extra details to give somebody confidence that he might attempt this project…in the end, I guess I have to agree with the other builders:
“Just go for it”!

In review:

Config.---Barrel (+MB)--Gas Block Stop--Gas Tube---Gas Port---Piston----Spring
FAL/L1A1--16-21” ---------11.375”------9.75”-------.094"------11.70”----10.5”
DSA OSW--11.0”(+1.25)----8.50”--------6.85”(4.7)--.110" ------8.50”-----8.25”
K2P1------12.0”(+1.50) ----6.50”--------4.75”------<.094"------6.60”-----7.5”
K2P2-------8.25------------4.125”------2.52”------<.094" ------4.28”-----None

I haven’t been successful getting digital pictures of the flame, I’ll try next time I go out with film and see if I can get the timing right.

I'll post Pics of the OSW when The Form 1 is approved!

Update:

I received my Form 1 for the SBR “OSW” FAL build and got it put together! I have it set up with Para sights in case I ever need them, but I’m primarily using the Eotech sight system. It feels comfortable and sights quickly; the only thing that surprised me was the weight up front. The aluminum quad rail is heaver that I thought, certainly heaver than the wood hand guard like on the K2P1 pistol version. Everything considered, I have to say that it’s “Too cool by half!!!”

The first time I took it out to the range I had problems getting it to cycle completely. By adjusting the gas regulator I found that the best I could do was about 80% with the reg. completely closed………a very disappointing day, but I had a good idea what needed to be changed.

A quick search on the forum and I see that others have had problems with the short 11” barrel as well. The solution was to open up the gas port hole.

The barrel length past the gas port is VERY short at 2” verses the 4” I choose for the pistols.


I called DSA and talked to Jeff who said that because of tolerances of the barrels, some are tighter than others so the hole was on the small side to adjust for this. He said the hole is .110” and to drill it out to .120” but no larger than .125”, I decide to creep up on it a little and chose a .116” drill.

I took it out to the range and backed off the regulator a little and it ended up cycling reliably at a setting of 7. I’m going to keep this gas port hole size for now and get a lot more firing time through it before I consider drilling it all the way out to .120”. My general belief is that smaller gas ports are better than large because of issues identified earlier in the report. So far I have had no bent gas pistons and I’ll certainly report back if I do.

Now that it’s running smoothly I noticed something else, after two magazines, the aluminum quad rail is VERY hot. It seems to me that the wood hand guard does a much better job of insulating the barrel from the shooters hand! I may try and build a wood hand guard for the “OSW” and do an actual comparison…But I really like the looks of the continuous rail across the top so I think the immediate solution is to add the front grip so I can hang on to it for a few more magazines before it gets to hot to handle.

SBR “OSW” FAL…..Enjoy….I know I am!!!! K2

Last edited by Kay Tue; June 25, 2007 at 10:12.
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Old May 23, 2007, 16:30   #10
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Very nice job,, But you need bigger pictures...

Thanks
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Old May 23, 2007, 16:39   #11
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This is my first post with pictures, I was hoping they would click to full size.....Let me see what I can do as they really do need to be larger!

Update: OK I think I have the pictures large enough now.

Also tring to figure out how to make the columes line up in the review matrix.

Update: OK trial & error with the space bars---------how's that?
K2

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Old May 23, 2007, 18:47   #12
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Very nicely done. My complements.
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Old May 23, 2007, 21:37   #13
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Nice build, and great info.

To get a good muzzle flash picture, go to a safe place to shoot in the dark. Turn the flash off on your digital camera. With auto exposure, the shutter will stay open for several seconds. Just make sure you pull the trigger while the shutter is open (no so hard, because it should stay open for a while, depending on how dark it is). You should get something that looks like this:

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Old May 24, 2007, 06:29   #14
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great post ,thank you
how many rounds have you put through the 12" model ?
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Old May 24, 2007, 08:30   #15
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I haven’t been counting but would estimate about 250 to 300 rounds thru the 12" K2P1 and about 300 to 350 thru the 8" K2P2, most of which were magazine dumps. After the initial single & multiple test rounds to check out cycling and function, it’s really hard to not just blast thru a mag for the fire and sound effects!

I was using 70’s Czech surplus corrosive ammo with brass cases because it was relatively inexpensive. I haven’t tried any other brands or the steel case wolf style ammo. The 20 round mags feed well but I still have problems going thru a whole 30 round mag without jammimg.
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Old May 24, 2007, 12:46   #16
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i have yet to find a 30 rd mag that works flawlessly in a fal, so i quit trying
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Old May 24, 2007, 14:04   #17
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Nice builds. Thanks for the detailed descriptions and photos.
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Old May 24, 2007, 15:11   #18
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That's cool as shit!

Now you need to work on a flash enhancer.

I'm thinking maybe some black garden hose hooked to a propane valve, and strung out along a 2x4 in front of the muzzle, with quarter inch holes drilled every half inch. Put two screen filters on the line to prevent back-flash into the propane tank. Test it with a torch. Then go for the money shot!!!

Keep an inert-gas extinguisher handy to quench the flame immediately after ignition, or you'll burn up your hose.

Crop the pics so you can't see the enhancer device.

Don't forget to turn your head toward the camera during firing to display your shit-eating-grin in full glory.




Just kidding. I would never do that.
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Old May 24, 2007, 16:20   #19
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how much for one of those backplates?
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Old May 24, 2007, 16:23   #20
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Great post....how did you get to post pics so soon?
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Old May 25, 2007, 00:03   #21
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Easy, by having the pics hosted somewhere else and simply linking to that url.

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Old May 25, 2007, 01:51   #22
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Nice work! That was a very informative and well documented post. Now you need a SBR K2R1.
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Old May 26, 2007, 04:59   #23
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good job. thanks for the info.
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Old May 26, 2007, 05:58   #24
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Impressive Job and Great Report!
Thanks for Sharing!

There is local guy here with a SBR FAL I have seen at the Gunshows, but I keep telling myself, I really don't need it. Your post has weakened my will power.
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Old May 30, 2007, 15:37   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by indy_Muaddib
how much for one of those backplates?
I would be interested in one too if you were up for making a few. I'm using an Ace stock block on mine for now, but I wouldn't mind going a little shorter.
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Old May 31, 2007, 07:40   #26
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I take it you are using a Para Bolt Carrier and Top Cover, and Return Spring for these pistols?
I saw where you mentioned a "Return Spring Tube Hole" as I am only basicly familar with the Para Fal I am not sure if that is a standard part or if you made you own recoil system some how? It seems the last time I saw one it had the spring guide rod in the top cover and a deep hole drilled into the rear of the carrier for the spring to compress into but I really am not sure of the exact working details.
Nice looking jobs though, I must say you are more adventerous with your machine's than I am with mine! Here I am still working on building the tools for my Krink Builds!!!! Guess I better get on the ball and figure out something neat to build!
Hummmmmm I think I have a spare barrel to a G3,,,, Maybe a G3 pistol in the future The will make me do it!!!!!
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Old June 01, 2007, 17:32   #27
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I've added a short section to the report on the differences between a Para & Standard recoil spring set-up. I hope that helps.

K2
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Old June 02, 2007, 12:32   #28
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So I take it that it's a no-go on the lower receiver back plates?
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Old June 22, 2007, 12:07   #29
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btt
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Old June 25, 2007, 10:05   #30
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Added Update to the bottom of report on the SBR "OSW" build! K2
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Old June 25, 2007, 14:54   #31
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Nice work on the OSW. Keep up the good work.
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Old July 05, 2007, 18:58   #32
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Very nice!!
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Old September 13, 2007, 10:53   #33
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please make some backplates for us - we'll pay!!!
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Old September 13, 2007, 12:24   #34
mosbysmen
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i just rebarreled my louisiana tigers fal pistol to the k2p1 barrel mod.
it looks great ,im trying to figure out why my gas piston is binding now ,as soon as i get that done i will go shoot it and post a report .
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Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
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"when you have integrity..... nothing else matters
when you don't have integrity.... nothing else matters"
Teach The Children This Simple Principle.... Bob Kelly

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly
proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride
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Old September 15, 2007, 23:59   #35
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Old September 15, 2007, 23:59   #36
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Old September 24, 2007, 20:09   #37
mosbysmen
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i fired the pistol with the new barrel , it is a lot easier to shoot now then before, i am going to have to drill my gas port hole larger . i expected that but i wanted to try it first.
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fio para bellator
be the prepared warrior

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
¯ Mark Twain




"when you have integrity..... nothing else matters
when you don't have integrity.... nothing else matters"
Teach The Children This Simple Principle.... Bob Kelly

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly
proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride
l
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Old November 18, 2007, 07:34   #38
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I just want to Thank You for The most informative and well laid out tutorial I have read so far.
I have been reading for 3(?) months now and this is best by far. I do not believe I will ever build 1 of these, but ya never know.
I have learned quit a bit from this one thread.
Thanks YOU
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Old January 02, 2009, 16:56   #39
fal fiend
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great post, should be a sticky
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In memory of a true friend, Derby Fals 1956-2007/ I'm a Contributor, u should be 1 too, support the Fal board.
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Old January 02, 2009, 16:58   #40
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agreed
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Old January 07, 2011, 16:27   #41
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bump
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fio para bellator
be the prepared warrior

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
¯ Mark Twain




"when you have integrity..... nothing else matters
when you don't have integrity.... nothing else matters"
Teach The Children This Simple Principle.... Bob Kelly

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly
proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride
l
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