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Old April 26, 2006, 10:52   #1
masman
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another camouflage thread

i didnt want to hijack the other camo thread.so what is everyones thought on military camo vs commercial camo (realtree, mossy oak ect...)which one do you think is more effective?
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Old April 26, 2006, 11:01   #2
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Military camos are generally designed to cover a wider range of environments, while commercial camos are usually designed for one specific environment (cattail marshes, cornfields, etc).

Just an observation...

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Old April 26, 2006, 12:23   #3
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Black glows under the eye of night vision. Avoid black in your camoflauge.
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Old April 26, 2006, 13:56   #4
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Check out predator. Good patterns and high quality gear.


www.predatorcamo.com
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Old April 26, 2006, 14:06   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raminator
Black glows under the eye...
Even the naked eye picks out black quite easily.

I guess it depends on what animals you are trying to conceal yourself against. Two legged or four.
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Old April 26, 2006, 16:56   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by want2race


Even the naked eye picks out black quite easily.

I guess it depends on what animals you are trying to conceal yourself against. Two legged or four.
im thinking the two legged type.


Quote:
Military camos are generally designed to cover a wider range of environments, while commercial camos are usually designed for one specific environment (cattail marshes, cornfields, etc).
i think most of us in a shtf situation wouldnt be ranging to far from home.so i wont have to worry about a jungle or desert pattern here in northern new england.
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Old April 26, 2006, 17:35   #7
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Commercial camoflage patterns are fairly effective a close ranges, but the patterns are so 'busy' that they fade into one uniform shade of dark at tactical ranges. Several of the newer military patterns have the same fault.
If you see black in a military camoflage pattern (VN Tigerstripe excepted) it was probably designed with defeating active IR in mind. Black won't shine in NV devices if the proper dye is used, and it's not washed in phospated detergents.
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Old April 27, 2006, 14:26   #8
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Good to know about the black dye. I have a set of VN style, vat dyed tiger stripes. I bought them in 1990 and they look as good today as they did then.
They are my favorite, although my regions foliage does not really match (except in late spring).
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Old April 27, 2006, 23:53   #9
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German Flektar is an awesome all-around camo. It is very effective. It also uses many of the same colors as real-tree camo.

Check it out:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=259591

Though it isn't as abundant as it was, say, a year ago.
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Old April 28, 2006, 07:45   #10
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One thing I have noticed about camo patterns is that no one is suitable over an entire year, or even season. I was in Ga last year in early spring. I was headed down to Ft. Benning. As my buddy and I drove I noticed the early buds on the trees and remarked something to the effect of "no wonder the Germans picked the 'dapple' pattern during WWII'. It was a perfect pattern for early spring, the bright greens and other colors of the German WWII spring dapple pattern (called Flectarn today) would have melted into the vegetation. I have also noticed in my area that during the Fall ther Swiss Alpenflage (a variation of the very late war German Leibmeister pattern) with it's reds was perfect for about 4 to 6 weeks of fall, depending on elevation. Elevation has an impact on how fast and how long the foliage changes and how intense the colors are, along with annual rainfall. Little rain usually has the effect of vegetation of duller colors, normal seasonal rainfall usually results in brighter Fall or Spring colors. As for mid-Summer or mid-Winter camo patterns the most effective pattern is determined by rainfall, temps, and other environmental factors including the elevation your area of operation is going to be. I have several different patters for seasonal changes. And if you are considering your family or family and group of friends, you may want to standardize a pattern based on season and operational area's environment. One thing I noticed about the Alpenflage pattern that is really strange. The red color, which you would normally think would be too bright, actually 'tones down' when in shadow to a rust color at distance. I think the Swiss noticed a psychological factor with this color. From a military standpoint, their 'enemy' (guess anyone trying to steal Tobler candies ) or any aggressor would not necessarily be looking for the red color in a camo pattern. Since you do not necessarily expect so bright a color the human brain does not process it. We base our observations on our own expectations. We expect camo to be greens, browns, etc.; but not the red nor pistachio green flecks the Swiss camo contains. Since we don't expect it we don't 'see' it. The brain just doesn't process those colors, hence with no expectations of a color then the color patterns would be 'invisible' and would break up the outline that the human brain process from the visual side. This may sound nutty but from my meager studies of Swiss military history, etc. they do not do something unless there is an underlying cause or scientific bases. They are known to hide complete military facilities in the sides of mountains in such a way you could be standing 10 yards from it and not know it. They have engineered their military far greater than most other countries. And that is why I think that the addition of the bright red is not strictly a seasonal issue. However their new patterns are more in line with the NATO countries, and that I believe will be a shortcoming for them in the long run.

You may want to try a little experiment that I did. Take a shirt or pants of a particular pattern at various distances and have a friend hang it from a coat hanger from a tree or bush while you DO NOT watch. Mildly 'conceal' it as you would have someone 'casually' standing in your environment. Then you walk through that area where he placed the garments and see if you can spot it. This is a basic test to see what works. It is totally different than knowing where something is. If you have NVGs try the same method using the NVG at night. Optics with their various coatings will have a different effect on the concealabilty factor. I carried it one step further and used amber lens covers, etc. to see if any visible light filters made a difference on the visibility of camo patterns. You may be surprised at what does work and what doesn't work.

Just my observations of camo.
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Old April 28, 2006, 17:04   #11
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1+ Falshirmjager!
I think that the new Swiss camo pattern is the same old Leibermuster pattern with the red removed. Practical folks them Swiss.
A lot of the modern camo is what I call "social" camo. It looks cool but really isn't that effective. Woodland is a great example. We designed it for Central Europe and an enemy using a lot of active IR, it's very effective under the conditions that it was designed for. Since we have the best equipped army in the world everyone started copying our pattern. There are so many woodland knock offs around the world that you can't count them, many of them in climatological regions that it is completely inappropriate for.
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Old April 28, 2006, 17:26   #12
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Auscam works in the vast majority of conditions here. That was what it was designed to do. It was not as good as would have been expected in the deserts of Iraq or Arsecrackestan. As a result they developed "Desert Auscam" which is exactly the same patterns but different colours.

The high point to the deserst are that they were a quick issue contract that went outside normal supply chains. As a result the uniforms are a better cut/quality with some addition/more useful pockets.

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Old April 29, 2006, 17:22   #13
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My favorite camouflage is being used by some very important customers right now... when it is available, I buy what I can.

Crye Precision (MULTICAM Designer)

Official MULTICAM Website (Shows links to all MULTICAM Gear Manufacturers)

Since the Army had a case of "me too", they chose a digital camouflage that blends less in fewer environments than MULTICAM. Crye Precision expected their proven research would have made the sale. Other, less known organizations chose to purchase this superior gear, as the low availability demonstrates...
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Old April 30, 2006, 08:05   #14
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Just a couple of things to remember/take into consideration regarding camo.
The idea is to make yourself look like something other than a human/person, not to look like an out of place bush.
Also, earth tones (tans/khakis, browns, and green) are much harder for the human eye to pick up and focus on.
Go research the wildlife in your area, both predator and prey, and see what colors they are.
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Old October 15, 2011, 22:53   #15
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Lesson 1 : How to know when you're doing it wrong.

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Old October 16, 2011, 06:10   #16
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Couple things:

1. Nature generally provides it's own shadows and dark and/or black should not be an abundant color in your patterns. (Look what a whitetail deer can do heavily wooded areas with only trace amounts of black.)

2. Commercial sport camo is designed to do two things: sell a product (hopfeully several different sets) and maybe hide a person who is completely motionless. As mentioned, the intricate patterns generally fade into a dark blob. See #1.

3. Pattern matters less than shine and shape, which lots of folks overlook. White faces, white hands, a round noggin bobbin' around, and a shiny black weapon will get you seen before a poor pattern will.

4. Movement trumps everything. The human eye is wired for it. So is just about every other land mammal. Learned how, when, and where to move is infinitely more important than pattern.

You'd be surprised at what simple, muted color clothing can do for a guy who knows how to set up his gear and move under observation.

Read "The Last 100 Yards = The NCO's Contribution to Warfare" on how infiltration and movement by foot is largely overlooked in western warfare to our great detriment.
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Old October 16, 2011, 17:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texasbubba
Commercial camoflage patterns are fairly effective a close ranges, but the patterns are so 'busy' that they fade into one uniform shade of dark at tactical ranges. Several of the newer military patterns have the same fault...
That right there.

Probably the absolute best cammo is a pair of old brown or gray work coveralls. Anyone who does see you would not immediately suspect mall ninja/survivalist/terrorist/kook.
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Old October 17, 2011, 07:04   #18
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Lesson 1 : How to know when you're doing it wrong.

Isn't it obvious he's going to the after battle dance?
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Old October 17, 2011, 09:37   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by chet

Read "The Last 100 Yards = The NCO's Contribution to Warfare" on how infiltration and movement by foot is largely overlooked in western warfare to our great detriment.
One of the things I noticed when they first issued us ACUs was how they stuck out at night, where the old BDUs would just disappear.

I suppose combat pajamas have their place, tho -


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Old October 17, 2011, 09:51   #20
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I am pleased with how well multicam works in both brush, and arid desert. Even the old woodland worked better than the ACU in Sonoran desert.


The marine desert works pretty good, as does straight olive (OG 63). Cabellas high plains (?) camo - similar to realtree - pretty good too.

Playing paintball gives a chance to test out camo.

Most of my gear is mix and match now. Once I got past the have "must match" silliness, I could gleefuly put OD, woodland, tan, and Coyote on the same vest.

My preference is dark olive and coyote as they are most universal.

If I lived where it snowed, I'd probably get a german smock.
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Old October 17, 2011, 11:05   #21
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at some point I was a big fan of CADPAT temperate woodland, I even purchased a set, cost me and arm and a leg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CADPAT

unfortunately it's no good during the fall here in midwest, which was pointed out to me by several of my good friends.
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Old October 17, 2011, 21:46   #22
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I used to spend big $ the latest greatest commercial camo when I did nothing but spend all my spare time afield hunting whatever was in season. Some of it worked most of was just fashionable. In recent years, I've come to the conclusion that plain earth tones mixed up with my aging collection of commercial and military patterns serves me pretty well. I will probably eventually just have plain OD's and Khaki Colored garb which makes for fluid transitions between the field and mixing with gen. population. A DIY ghillie type set up is in the works utilizing my stockpile of ripped, torn and worn out hunting garments. The ghillie will be for hunting or for long range sniping if a situation calls for it. Generally, I'm trying to shy away anything too military looking as far as packs, BDU's ,and other gear so that I will appear as less a threat in post apocalyptic scenario*. Looking to blend in not stick out. Plain and unassuming is what I want to be.

*World English Dictionary
apocalypse (əˈpɒkəlɪps)
ón
1. a prophetic disclosure or revelation
2. an event of great importance, violence, etc, like the events described in the Apocalypse
[C13: from Late Latin apocalypsis, from Greek apokalupsis, from apokaluptein to disclose, from apo- + kaluptein to hide]
Apocalypse (əˈpɒkəlɪps)
ón
Bible (in the Vulgate and Douay versions of the Bible) the Book of Revelation

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Old October 17, 2011, 22:17   #23
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Most animals (essentially all mammals except primates, most birds except some ducks and parrots, most reptiles) don't see color, so color in camouflage is mostly for people (a primate)...

Just sayin'...

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Old October 17, 2011, 23:44   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by slakline
Generally, I'm trying to shy away anything too military looking as far as packs, BDU's ,and other gear so that I will appear as less a threat in post apocalyptic scenario. Looking to blend in not stick out. Plain and unassuming is what I want to be.
Post apocalypse?
Reckon the rifle hanging on your mossy oak'ed shoulder will have more impact than the leaf shape on your shirt? "Subtlety in public" would seemingly have more to do with concealing resources rather than perceptions about your clothing at that point. That is, if you can get a commercial hunting product to last through the apocalypse. I can't get most of them to last a single hunting season in decent order.

Personally, I wouldn't care either way but then again, I have it on good Authority, I won't be here post apocalypse anyway. So, you'll have to let me know how it worked out.
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Old October 18, 2011, 09:59   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ftierson
Most animals (essentially all mammals except primates, most birds except some ducks and parrots, most reptiles) don't see color, so color in camouflage is mostly for people (a primate)...

Just sayin'...

Forrest
I thought this myth was dispelled years ago.

But then I thought we were taking about field camo - as in, you're carrying your rifle in the open.

For gray-man camo, consider the clipboard, hard hat and orange safety vest. Everyone sees you, but nobody notices you.
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Old October 18, 2011, 10:03   #26
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Iím with Kyrottimus and Fallschirmjager about Flectarn Camouflage. I did a test to see what worked best. Hear in Southern Louisiana we go from Summer to Winter almost overnight. The colors in the foliage donít change much. I use a combination of German Flectarn and a US Woodland Gillie Suit
This is a comparison photo of the German WWII SS 44 Dot and the modern Flectarn.



This is my Flec and Gillie.

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Old October 18, 2011, 10:13   #27
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that 44 dot is what I used as a pattern for my sonoran desert camo on rifle stocks, and my UTV to a lesser extent. something about the polka dots - dark on light and light on dark - has really worked well.




Now I do the same thing using sponge for dots and addint in the chocolate chips. Since they occur on lizards and flounder, and crappy camo makes them dinner, I figure there must be something to the high contrast spots



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Old October 18, 2011, 14:00   #28
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44 Dot gives Multicam a run for the money. Good reproductions show how this 5 color pattern seemed to blend from one environment to another, not that the Germans were worried about anything other than European grounds by 44 anyway. It also seems to provide the all in one performance that they were looking for to get away from more expensive reversibles in oak a/b or whatever.

As Mark said, I think the contrasting dots work for reasons we may not fully get, but they work.

By nice to get a very simple para smock in poly blend printed 44 Dot that didn't weight a ton when wet or maybe a water resistant zeltbahn/serape that was cut considerably smaller than either of those usually are.
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Old October 18, 2011, 22:07   #29
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most any type camo will work as long as you are still. As stated, some looks better with certain backgrounds. Also don't forget your gear and or weapon(as GP has shown). nothing screams "here I am" to game or humans more than odd movement and weird stuff poking out of the weeds. Predator or turkey hunting is a great way to test your set up. BTW most birds do see in color (try wearing bright colors on a turkey or duck hunt). Funny too how some animals are much better at picking you out than others. I don't know the reason, but there is always the one old tom or old mamma doe that are impossible to fool, while others are so oblivious its silly(and fatal).
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Old October 18, 2011, 23:30   #30
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I like the combination of Fectarn and Woodland. Here is my baby in a Gillie Woodland gun rag. You can be in the best camo, but your weapon needs camo also. I find even painted guns stand out somewhat. The gun rag breaks up the shape even more. I just redid the rag. Hereís a new pic.

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Old October 19, 2011, 12:41   #31
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Quote:
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most any type camo will work as long as you are still.
That's true for prey animals as long as the wind is in your favor. That is NOTnecessarily true when it comes to people or other predators. In my opinion, poor camo is worse than no camo at all because the user is probably under the delusion that he is actually hidden.
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Old October 24, 2011, 19:12   #32
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A couple of thoughts...

I've used a lot of different types/patterns of camo in a lot of different places.

My favorite and one which seems to work almost anywhere - OD.
In most parts of the world, whether hot or cold, there is usually vegetation and most times it's green.

Learning how to move (or not move) is just as important as choosing the right camo pattern. Decent camo and good stalking skills are tough to beat.

The biggest give away... a black rifle.
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Old October 24, 2011, 19:58   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf1952
I like the combination of Fectarn and Woodland. Here is my baby in a Gillie Woodland gun rag. You can be in the best camo, but your weapon needs camo also. I find even painted guns stand out somewhat. The gun rag breaks up the shape even more. I just redid the rag. Hereís a new pic.


Any issues with that getting caught up in reciprocating parts of your bang stick?
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Old October 25, 2011, 02:39   #34
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And is any of it significantly flammable ??? This tin handguards get hot
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Old November 13, 2011, 02:09   #35
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i use mil woodlands in the woods and the 3 color us desert in (guess where) in the desert. the brit desert smock is very handy. the head and shoulders area is very important, the out line is a dead giveaway and very few use face, neck, hands camo cause its messy. movement is the big enemy. any usmc manual on camo is adequate. the usmc digital desert cammies are great as are the marpat
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Old November 13, 2011, 09:36   #36
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In case you are interested the mil. tested civy camo when looking at making a switch to digital. Civy camo=epic fail. At distance it faded into a dark blob sillohuetting the wearer. Civy camo is more fashionable than functional even for game animals. Hence the new camo that's pointing out that fact. Natural Gear and Predator are far better than any of the pictoflage as I call it. Flectarn and DPM are far superior to any of the pictoflage and cheaper too. Also, don't rule out desert camo in lush setting. I saw a test of various military camo and a desert pattern was harder to see in a lush green paciific northwest setting than some of the new wonderflage digital patterns.

In the NATTICK trials that brought us the ACU, the top pattern was actually called desert brush. It placed higher in all terrains and at night than the ACU or Multicam. Don't ask me how we ended up with the ACU. Multicam was third and ACU fourth in those trials and we've heard nothing of the top two patterns unless you read the Trial. Trial results are available if you search the net. I don't have the link on this computer. Black in camo is not good as terrain and shadows provide dark shading and black is found only in some spiders, beetles etc.. and is absent anywhere elss in nature.

I once went completely unnoticed simply because I had on a brown shirt and tan pants. If you notice most animals are darker on top and lighter on the bottom. Camo needs to break the outline and fool the eye. Movement makes all camo less effective. Wow probably way more than anyone wanted to know. I think this was more like a nickles worth.
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Old November 13, 2011, 10:34   #37
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If I lived where it snowed, I'd probably get a german smock.

The W German surplus that I have handled has all been 100% cotton. The material is much like cotton bed sheets. I tried some because it is so inexpensive. Terrible in the field. It soaks up moisture and quickly becomes miserable to wear. Brush up against a tree, snow falls on the smock, your body heat causes it to melt and presto, you become a soggy mess.

I have some Euro cotton canvas over whites that are better but the best is the US synthetic stuff.
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Old November 13, 2011, 10:57   #38
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I am looking to pick up one or two of the uniforms they are issuing the guys going to Afganistan.

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Old November 14, 2011, 17:38   #39
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camo

Haven't logged on in over a year, but this is a topic I have a lot of personal and professional interest in and have dedicated a lot fo time, thought, and money on.

I'm in agreement with the previous comments chet and gunplumber made. I think movement techniques (knowing when and how to move), limiting shine and straight lines, and avoiding excessive amounts of black are key to concealing yourself.

I also think, in many cases, simply earth tones, devoid of any pattern, work vwery well. The old O.D. fatigues issued back before the US woodland pattern is a classic example. The pre-9/11 OPFOR at Ft. Polk, LA made especially good use of those uniforms when I had opportunity to "fight" against them in the early 90's. They were practically invisible in the pine forests and bogs of Louisiana.

With that said, I do think MultiCam is an excellent pattern for generic all-around wear, but even it can stand out under certain circumstances if not maintained properly.
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Old November 14, 2011, 19:24   #40
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Any issues with that getting caught up in reciprocating parts of your bang stick?


I havenít had any trouble with the Burlap String fouling the action yet. Iíve been using the Gillie Rag on L1A1 for ten years now. I have one of the plastic Forearm on it. It doesnít get as hot as the metal one does. I have and extra wood Forearm I was thinking about installing and turning the by-pod around so it would fold forward.
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Old November 21, 2011, 01:03   #41
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Camo isn't always about blending in or looking like the background, it is about breaking up any straight lines or obvious shapes that cry out "human". The human eye is good at picking up on things that look out of the ordinary or man made, it's also why we see shapes in clouds or pick out faces in things like pieces of burnt toast. I think that is one reason why the flecktarn works so well. It does not create a repeated pattern and the dark spots in the middle of light areas break up any pattern that the eye may pick up on.

Good reading here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_camouflage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage
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Old November 21, 2011, 12:05   #42
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Spoke with a police officer out in Southern Utah - a certain city's snipers take the ACU and get it stained red with the red soil - a factory actually does the staining. Apparently, it works rather well and blends in.

ACU will stain and blend into an environment - I know someone had talked about taking them and staining them darker green.

I know that Brits in Afghan had to resort to dyeing desert tops green to blend in better in Helmand - conceptually you could alter a lighter camoflage if money is an issue or you happen to have some old ACU's laying around like I know some of us do.
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Old November 26, 2011, 00:39   #43
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I've often wondered if I wouldn't be better off shooting two deer, tanning their hides, and making coveralls or a poncho type cover out it. As big and noticeable as deer are in the open, they all but disappear once they get three feet into the tree line.

Native Americans used animal hides to conceal themselves for centuries. Maybe there's something to be learned there?...
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Old November 26, 2011, 17:04   #44
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I was just on Multicam's web site, looking at their photo gallery. Some very good photos there, showing camo uses.

This one makes a good arguement to camo your rifle.
http://www.multicampattern.com/pictu...leryImage=true

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Old November 27, 2011, 12:34   #45
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I was just on Multicam's web site, looking at their photo gallery. Some very good photos there, showing camo uses.

Not sure why the link doesn't work well, but if you go to MultiCam's web site, click on the "Gallery" button and you'll see some good photos of camo.
Maybe this gallery link will work.

http://www.multicampattern.com/gallery/
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Old November 29, 2011, 12:13   #46
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I've often wondered if I wouldn't be better off shooting two deer, tanning their hides, and making coveralls or a poncho type cover out it. As big and noticeable as deer are in the open, they all but disappear once they get three feet into the tree line.

Native Americans used animal hides to conceal themselves for centuries. Maybe there's something to be learned there?...
Sounds like a great way to get shot during your R&D process.
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Old December 02, 2011, 10:32   #47
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a number of years ago (20 ? + ?) I put my money down on ASAT camo at the Eastern Sport Show
my one buddy that was there with me said "it's too light colored, I wouldn't spend my money on it"
I took a chance on it, I told him "hell deer are light colored and they disappear in the woods"

it was all knit (mfg under contract by Winona Knitting Mills) for Brigade Quartermaster under license,
to the guy that invented it, and worth every damn penny too !

I can tell you this, "my fat ass disappeared so well my hunting buddies walked right past me,
so close that when I grabbed hold of them I could smell the shit in their pants"
and the one damn near had a heat attack

as stated in a earlier post, browns & tans work best, you can use some black to help with
the illusion of shadow, but layers create a 3-D effect that is even better, shadow is your friend

a few years after the first set of ASAT they came out with a 3-D leafy camo & I purchased a set,
and again, "my fat ass disappeared"

nearly all camo on the market has a pattern that is too small, you become a hugh blob
at more than 50 yards away (although Predator camo does have a nice large pattern too)

http://www.asatcamo.com/index.htm
^^^ there is the link to the webpage, Point your cursor at Catalog and then click View Entire Product Line.

I also like the mil-surplus camo net (and you cannot get it any more, it must be ground up/destroyed)
the desert camo nets are a good comprise if you attach some other color grasses to it
like these or something similar >>> LINK <<< they help like the way a sniper adds local foliage to his gillie suit
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Old December 11, 2011, 12:39   #48
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Out where I live now there is a great deal of sagebrush, and the ACU colors are very similar to the sagebrush. I am just weird, but I am of the mindset that you should have similar colors to what the environment you are in is. I would also use a light brown or dark tan and OD green here.
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