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The FAL Files Forums  »  Weapons Discussion » General Firearms Discussion » Trigger Happy
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Topic: Trigger Happy
Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post July 29, 2005 19:48    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #1

Trigger Happy

You'll all need to forgive me for posting this , but I'm working on a new article called (Trigger Happy )


The Internet dictionary's interpretation of the term " Trigger Happy " is

1 : irresponsible in the use of firearms; especially : inclined to shoot before clearly identifying the target
2 a : inclined to be irresponsible in matters that might precipitate war



"Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie" - By Jim Owens
http://www.jarheadtop.com/chapters.htm

A quote taken from Mr. Jim Owens book: "Wives or girl friends get very upset with bullet holes in the ceiling," that ended up hitting little junior while he was sleeping. Or this one taken Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages from Dry Firing Practice linked below .Please take notice to the "embarrassing bang" and oh I'm sorry your dead, I didn't know the gun was loaded.

"By confining the dry firing to a specific area and target we can help to eliminate negligent discharges resulting from the "one more time" syndrome in which the shooter does one more practice drill but forgets that the firearm is now live resulting in an embarrassing "bang" when one expected a "click." Leaving a designated area and removing the target help to reinforce the notion that practice

Dry Firing Practice By Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/safety.htm


Last paragraph of Insight of a Bull's-Eye: by Swamp Fox

"One could easily draw the conclusion that there is no danger in the practice of dry-firing and therefore philosophically take the position this it is not a safety issue. However, there is no evidence that those who practice good marksmanship prior to the modern-day term called sniping ever needed to dry-fire their firearms to make a bulls-eye . " Furthermore, even folks like Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages or Mr. Jim Owens himself that advocate this practice points out themselves there is indeed a safety issue at stake, but provide no evidence or fact this in itself improve marksmanship other than taking their word for it.
_________________
Swamp Fox
U.S. Army Draftee
69/71



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ball
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Old Post July 29, 2005 21:07    Click Here to See the Profile for ball   Click here to Send ball a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #2

(from a braced firing position like the sniper nearly always uses) that there is little or nothing to be gained by dryfiring. With other types of guns and shooting, however, dryfiring is tremendously helpful. The sorts of issues that the sniper has to deal with (wind, mirage, target movement, etc) can't be learned without copious amounts of live firing.


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post July 29, 2005 22:33    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #3

Hi! Ball ,

You say "dryfiring is tremendously helpful" , can you prove it?



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Bruce Allen
Entrepreneur

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Old Post July 29, 2005 23:29    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #4

I can.

In particular with a revolver, when I was competition shooting (PPC) dry firing assisted in grip, trigger squeeze and proper sight alignment greatly.

All of the team members conducted dry firing practice, especially during the winter months to stay sharp.

The only match I won outright was the 2nd match of the year. My 50 yard shooting was superb from the dry firing I had done during the pervious winter.

BTW - I fired a 1486 out of possible 1500 perfect point score. If you are familiar with PPC shooting you know there are 5 individual "matches" within the entire course of fire with match 5 being an composite of all 4 different distances (7, 15, 25 and 50 yards). I fired a 596 out of a possible 600 points for a personal best and a score that set a departmental record that stands to this day, both in the overall and for Match 5.
That would have been in 1981.
That score also boosted me into the NRA Master Class.

I actually got a little worse as the year went on as I was doing more live fire than dry fire.

Even with a semi auto dry firing can assist with trigger control and help eliminate related problems.

BTW - I was also a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years or so.

Any other questions?


__________________
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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

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Old Post July 30, 2005 03:16    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #5

Well Bruce, I'm impressed , but nevertheless you haven't provided any scientifically evidence that dry firing was the reason behind your success. So therefore, its just your word with no proof.


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Lon Moer
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Old Post July 30, 2005 03:28    Click Here to See the Profile for Lon Moer   Click here to Send Lon Moer a Private Message   Click Here to Email Lon Moer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #6

quote:

"..... negligent discharges resulting from the "one more time" syndrome in which the shooter does one more practice drill but forgets that the firearm is now live resulting in an embarrassing "bang" when one expected a "click."


This cost me $200., to replace my TV last spring. (damn John Kerry!!!)


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762 shooter
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Old Post July 30, 2005 03:40    Click Here to See the Profile for 762 shooter   Click here to Send 762 shooter a Private Message   Click Here to Email 762 shooter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #7

Used to do dry fire practice quite a bit as a kid for silhouette competitions. I was on the state team as a junior in '87, I was 17 at the time and both my mother and father were state champions numerous times. This is in Kali. Not entirely due to dry fireing but like anything it helps.

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krallstar
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Old Post July 30, 2005 04:16    Click Here to See the Profile for krallstar   Click here to Send krallstar a Private Message   Click Here to Email krallstar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #8

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
Trigger Happy

You'll all need to forgive me for posting this , but I'm working on a new article called (Trigger Happy )


The Internet dictionary's interpretation of the term " Trigger Happy " is

1 : irresponsible in the use of firearms; especially : inclined to shoot before clearly identifying the target
2 a : inclined to be irresponsible in matters that might precipitate war



"Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie" - By Jim Owens
http://www.jarheadtop.com/chapters.htm

A quote taken from Mr. Jim Owens book: "Wives or girl friends get very upset with bullet holes in the ceiling," that ended up hitting little junior while he was sleeping. Or this one taken Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages from Dry Firing Practice linked below .Please take notice to the "embarrassing bang" and oh I'm sorry your dead, I didn't know the gun was loaded.

"By confining the dry firing to a specific area and target we can help to eliminate negligent discharges resulting from the "one more time" syndrome in which the shooter does one more practice drill but forgets that the firearm is now live resulting in an embarrassing "bang" when one expected a "click." Leaving a designated area and removing the target help to reinforce the notion that practice

Dry Firing Practice By Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/safety.htm


Last paragraph of Insight of a Bull's-Eye: by Swamp Fox

"One could easily draw the conclusion that there is no danger in the practice of dry-firing and therefore philosophically take the position this it is not a safety issue. However, there is no evidence that those who practice good marksmanship prior to the modern-day term called sniping ever needed to dry-fire their firearms to make a bulls-eye . " Furthermore, even folks like Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages or Mr. Jim Owens himself that advocate this practice points out themselves there is indeed a safety issue at stake, but provide no evidence or fact this in itself improve marksmanship other than taking their word for it.
Swamp Fox
U.S. Army Draftee
69/71



Last edited by krallstar on July 30, 2005 at 04:21


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krallstar
Member

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Old Post July 30, 2005 04:22    Click Here to See the Profile for krallstar   Click here to Send krallstar a Private Message   Click Here to Email krallstar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #9

OT but thought you might enjoy this vid. http://www.jusspress.com/day.php?us...rentTime=191257


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post July 30, 2005 12:01    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #10

"BTW - I was also a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years or so. "


Hey Bruce, I do have one question for you, but first I'd like to tell you how much experience I had with shooting handguns and that's not very much to say the least. However, several years ago , 1 of my goals was to kill a deer with a handgun. So I purchased a S&W model 686 357 Magnum. For the best part of that one summer leading up until deer season , I practiced freehand shooting at 50 yards .I'd also like to point out I have a weak right wrist, due to a construction action many years ago. Anyway , after practicing shooting several thousand rounds of ammunition, at 50 yards freehand with a hammer back using my left hand as a support , I could consistently place 3 of the 6 shots inside a 6 in. diameter . Now, I have absolutely no idea if that's any kind of marksmanship with a handgun because of having nothing to measure this against. So seeing how you are or were a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years , may be you'd in enlighten me.

Swamp Fox
U.S. Army Draftee 69/71



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luvmyar
Member

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Old Post July 30, 2005 12:30    Click Here to See the Profile for luvmyar   Click here to Send luvmyar a Private Message   Click Here to Email luvmyar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #11

I assume that when you say "freehand", you mean you were not using a rest or any other object except your own body mechanics to hold, aim and fire the revolver. That being the case, a 50% chance of a hit inside 6 inches at 50 yards is respectable accuracy, firing single-action for hunting purposes. It's not going to keep Rob Leatham up at night, but there's a whole lot of folks that can't come anywhere near to that, especially with a wrist injury.

Regarding the whole dry firing thing, I doubt that anyone has designed an experiment to "prove" whether dry firing improves shooting skills or not. Bruce's testimonial is about as close as I imagine you are going to get, as most 'evidence' will be anecdotal. Maybe one of these days when I have absolutely nothing else to do [I put that around late October, 2026], I'll do the DOE and see if I can find a statistically large enough sampling of subjects to come up with anything meaningful.

In the meantime, I'll keep unloading and rechecking my pistols everytime I want to practice trigger control and continue to dry-fire as I have been for well over 35 years....


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DEUS SUOS AGNOSCET.


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post July 30, 2005 12:33    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #12

For the record here , I'm an inventor , 1 of my inventions is called Accumark which is nothing more than another term for trigonometry. Now , I'm convinced I could prove that practicing with open sites , is far more important or beneficial to dry firing in improving ones marksmanship.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-68836.html



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dasu
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Old Post July 30, 2005 13:46    Click Here to See the Profile for dasu   Click here to Send dasu a Private Message   Click Here to Email dasu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #13

all i see is a (nice) bolt action rifle. whats the invention?


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ALBPM
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Old Post July 30, 2005 15:06    Click Here to See the Profile for ALBPM   Click here to Send ALBPM a Private Message   Click Here to Email ALBPM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #14

Here's an excellent way to practice dry firing and trigger control:
http://www.bullite.com/

Not cheap but safe and effective.



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Survey Punk
A tenth short of closing

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Old Post July 30, 2005 16:52    Click Here to See the Profile for Survey Punk   Click here to Send Survey Punk a Private Message   Click Here to Email Survey Punk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #15

Hey Fox,
You don't know a fellow named Rocky TFC, do you?
Drives an Escort with a galting gun in the back.

JB



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Bruce Allen
Entrepreneur

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Old Post July 30, 2005 17:22    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #16

Swamp Fox;

I will have to say your reply was a tad insulting.
No scientific evidence you say?

What ever happened to the scientific method of investigation?
One gathers empirical evidence until all is gathered or it seems more would not be beneficial, i.e. would significantly add to the end result.

Then one examines the said evidence and attempts to descerne if any obvious conclusions are to be seen. One can be too literal with this, though, so other factors or verifiers should be used.

Shooting:
"Shooting" is the common vernacular for discharging cartridges or rounds from a firearm.
Aimed shooting with a firearm is vastly more complex than simply pulling the trigger on a firearm.
The variables of aimed shooting, aka precision shooting, involve holding the firearm, pulling the trigger, aiming the firearm all with as much consistency as humanly possible, or within the limits of the developed skill of the shooter, right?.

In other words it is also a psychomotor skill since it also includes hand and eye coordination and muscle memory at the same time.

Anything that further develops this skill is of benefit to the shooter.
Even world class athletes use mental visualization to stimulate muscle responses to keep as much of an edge as possible during not training periods.
This is a fact and has been verified over and over again to be beneficial.

I would submit that is why there are different classes of shooters. Rather than a seperation due to the ability of the shooters it is more a difference of skill level.

Even the weapons play a small role in this.
I have outscored people with "better" revolvers, to be precise one time I used my issue revolver (S&W Mod 64, 4" bbl) against another that had a S&W K- 38 [instead of Combat Masterpiece] (6" bbl .38 with adjustable sights) and won.

Later after I quit the Pistol Team I shot as an individual using a S&W 686, with 6" bbl (stainless steel), and in a full PPC match beat 4 out of the 5 existing team members.
They all has special built revolvers just for this kind of shooting, commonly refered to as Built Guns, with bull barrels and tuned actions, and highly adjustible sights.
The guy I did not best was my old practice partner.

The developed skill of the individual is what separates one shooters performance from another.

Simply put the shooter with the most developed skill is the odds on favorite to score the best.

A committed shooter will use all avenues available to him/her to further their skills.
I got to the point where I no longer simply practiced shooting, but practiced the courses of fire with another team member and added the factor of stress - we placed a bet on most every shooting session - usually a Pepsi - but knowing there was a definite win/lose aspect to the session really helped us sharpen our edge.
All of this together pushed us into the forefront of our team and allowed us to be among the best in the State of SC. We even went to the National Pistol Matches in 1982 and I was 7th in the Municipal Master Category, which was the biggest single category in the whole match, which had 750 shooters.

Anything that aids in developing skill helps.

Besides, the proof is in the pudding.

BTW - I shot and killed a 250lb hog with a S&W 686, with a 6"bbl, 160 grn hardcast semi wadcutter loaded to 1200 fps, one shot, standing off hand at 46 paces.
This was the very same revolver I used in the PPC shooting I refered to above.
Anyow I hit the critter right behind the right ear and he got stiff all over and fell over dead as a hammer.

It was even video taped.

The guide and the other hunters stated later it was the single finest shot they had ever seen.

I am preparing to leave on a small trip and will be back tomorrow. I will answer your other question when I return.


__________________
Exposure to the Son can prevent burning later on.

Last edited by Bruce Allen on August 01, 2005 at 02:42


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elbo
umop apisdn
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Old Post July 30, 2005 22:31    Click Here to See the Profile for elbo   Click here to Send elbo a Private Message   Click Here to Email elbo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #17

What I see being invented is a need for a product.

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The Lord Gives Me Grace and the Devil Gives Me Style


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

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Old Post July 31, 2005 17:54    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #18

I have a question for the administrator of this web site : Is this company http://www.bullite.com/ a financial contributor here?


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ALBPM
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Old Post July 31, 2005 18:36    Click Here to See the Profile for ALBPM   Click here to Send ALBPM a Private Message   Click Here to Email ALBPM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #19

Nope, I got the link from last months "Guns & weapons for Law Enforcement"


They have nothing to do with this Site. They are an Israeli company that happens to offer a safe means by which to dry fire a weapon. I may get a couple of them for my pistols.

One safe rule I use is to clear your weapon in one room then take it to the part of the house (ammo/Mag Free) where you practice dry firing for trigger control.

My excersises for pistol consist of placing a dime on top of the front sight or putting a pencil down the barrel and firing at a piece of paper taped to the wall. This is very effective for pistol. The bullite looks like a very safe way to combine both of my excerises. And yes!!! I believe that dry firing is valuable training for pistol.

I use the same rule for cleaning weapons. Clear them of all ammo and mags in one room then take them to where I clean them(ammo/mag free).

Isn't it strange how bullets can magically find their way into weapons handled around ammo and mags.



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Mad Dog 7.62
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Old Post July 31, 2005 19:43    Click Here to See the Profile for Mad Dog 7.62   Click here to Send Mad Dog 7.62 a Private Message   Click Here to Email Mad Dog 7.62   Visit Mad Dog 7.62's homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #20

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
1 of my inventions is called Accumark which is nothing more than another term for trigonometry. Now , I'm convinced I could prove that practicing with open sites , is far more important or beneficial to dry firing in improving ones marksmanship.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-68836.html




I for one am more than a little confused.....first of all, if you "invented" something called accumark and it is nothing more than another name for trigonometry, you didn't "invent" anything. You just gave another name to a field of math. Or did you invent the Weatherby rifle? And you think practicing with open sights is more beneficial than dry firing.....are you under the impression that people put on scopes to dry fire, or just that they don't practice sight alignment while dry firing? Your posts thus far make little sense.
MD



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tac-40
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Old Post July 31, 2005 22:14    Click Here to See the Profile for tac-40   Click here to Send tac-40 a Private Message   Click Here to Email tac-40     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #21

I, too, am a certified Police Firearms Instructor. My Department shoots for quals every quarter (4x per year). We have instituted a dry firing drill to practice trigger pull and trigger reset with our issued Glock 21's just this year. The officer's qualification scores have risen noticably. Also, the number of officers that need to re-shoot after the first qual course has dropped significantly. This is all hard data and can be quantified, Dry firing works. Why else would the USMC spend so much time "snapping in" prior to the first round going down range? Nothing anecdotal about that.

__________________
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Lt. Col. Grant L. Rosensteel, Jr. USAF


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If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.


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fire for effect
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Old Post August 01, 2005 02:39    Click Here to See the Profile for fire for effect   Click here to Send fire for effect a Private Message   Click Here to Email fire for effect     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #22

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Allen
I can.

In particular with a revolver, when I was competition shooting (PPC) dry firing assisted in grip, trigger squeeze and proper sight alignment greatly.

All of the team members conducted dry firing practice, especially during the winter months to stay sharp.

The only match I won outright was the 2nd match of the year. My 50 yard shooting was superb from the dry firing I had done during the pervious winter.

BTW - I fired a 1486 out of possible 1500 perfect point score. If you are familiar with PPC shooting you know there are 5 individual "matches" within the entire course of fire with match 5 being an composite of all 4 different distances (7, 15, 25 and 50 yards). I fired a 596 out of a possible 600 points for a personal best and a score that set a departmental record that stands to this day, both in the overall and for Match 5.
That would have been in 1981.
That score also boosted me into the NRA Master Class.

I actually got a little worse as the year went on as I was doing more live fire than dry fire.

Even with a semi auto dry firing can assist with trigger control and help eliminate related problems.

BTW - I was also a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years or so.

Any other questions?



I will also attest to the value of dry firing. I have taught many people to shoot and dry firing is always a part of the instruction. It teaches sight alignment, trigger control and follow through.

If you don't want to believe it, then don't .


__________________
You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

W.T. Sherman, Major General Commanding
Headquarters, Army of Tennessee
September, 1864

Last edited by fire for effect on August 01, 2005 at 03:39


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Bruce Allen
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Old Post August 01, 2005 03:00    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #23

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
"BTW - I was also a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years or so. "


Hey Bruce, I do have one question for you, but first I'd like to tell you how much experience I had with shooting handguns and that's not very much to say the least. However, several years ago , 1 of my goals was to kill a deer with a handgun. So I purchased a S&W model 686 357 Magnum. For the best part of that one summer leading up until deer season , I practiced freehand shooting at 50 yards .I'd also like to point out I have a weak right wrist, due to a construction action many years ago. Anyway , after practicing shooting several thousand rounds of ammunition, at 50 yards freehand with a hammer back using my left hand as a support , I could consistently place 3 of the 6 shots inside a 6 in. diameter . Now, I have absolutely no idea if that's any kind of marksmanship with a handgun because of having nothing to measure this against. So seeing how you are or were a certified police firearms instructor for 10 years , may be you'd in enlighten me.

Swamp Fox
U.S. Army Draftee 69/71


Swampfox, I have several answers to your question.

1. For an "average shooter" that is indeed good. It shows you have put forth the effort to improve you pistol/revolver shooting skill.

2. Hunting. The vitals area of a 100 lb dear is about 6" in circumference, if I recall correctly, so your skill level would put you in the position of having a 50% chance of not hitting the vitals area.
Let you common sense and conscience be your guide here.

3. For a precision shooter, like an NRA Bulls eye shooter, you would need a lot more practice.
BTW - I have fired in bulls eye shooting with stock revolvers one time and fired a sharpshooter level score.

Unless you are dead set on hunting and shooting in the offhand position I would suggest you consider this: Use a "shooting stick" to steady you.
Resting the barrel and not the grip on a stick should benefit any shooter.
Remember - offhand is the least steady position to shoot from there is.

It would seem you need more practice any way you go.
Dry fire practice is a cheap and easy way to produce results in one's skill level.

Since you have expressed an interest in this shouldn't you try it for yourself so you will really know whether or not it works, instead of just guessing and disagreeing with others who have witnessed the benefits and virtually calling them liars?


Also I think elbo is right on the money.
It would appear you are either using us as a test bed for some of your articles or potentially for sales for any products you may have.

The website to the accumark rifle and your reply you "invented" it was virtually meaningless, as the complete absence if specific information was noticeably lacking.

Are you a paying contributor or vendor on this website?


__________________
Exposure to the Son can prevent burning later on.


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Sgt_Gold
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Old Post August 01, 2005 03:04    Click Here to See the Profile for Sgt_Gold   Click here to Send Sgt_Gold a Private Message   Click Here to Email Sgt_Gold     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #24

So what you're saying is that live fire training is better than dry firing. I think everyone knows that already, but most shooters can't spend all their waking hours at the range busting caps. Dry firing can be conducted anywhere for exactly $0. If it was worthless then none of the military teams or civilian shooters would use it. I await the results of your double blind marksmanship study.

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
Now , I'm convinced I could prove that practicing with open sites , is far more important or beneficial to dry firing in improving ones marksmanship.




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Bruce Allen
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Old Post August 01, 2005 03:17    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #25

quote:
Originally posted by tac-40
I, too, am a certified Police Firearms Instructor. My Department shoots for quals every quarter (4x per year). We have instituted a dry firing drill to practice trigger pull and trigger reset with our issued Glock 21's just this year. The officer's qualification scores have risen noticably. Also, the number of officers that need to re-shoot after the first qual course has dropped significantly. This is all hard data and can be quantified, Dry firing works. Why else would the USMC spend so much time "snapping in" prior to the first round going down range? Nothing anecdotal about that.

I "neglected" to state something pertaining to my history and "dry firing", and since tac-40 mentioned the UMSC, I will.

I was also a member of the USAR, the 108 Division - BCT.
I was in a training unit and was a Drill Instructor for 3 of the 7 years there.
I left as an E6.
I wore the Smokey Bear hat and all.

I received training for a year and 2 weeks and passed testing by "regular Army" personnel before being certified as an Instructor.

One of the methods taught to us so we could teach trainees in Basic Training was dry firing.

As previously mentioned one can put a dime on the front sight "wings" of either an M-14 or M-16 (for that matter balanced on the slide of a semi auto pistol right behind the front sight works) to be used as training aid to reduce or eliminate trigger jerk.
I guarantee you if you jerk the trigger the dime will fall off.
It is a perfect visual aid and great for training shooters how to pull the trigger on a weapon correctly.

I used that method for 3 years as did every other Instructor I was with, both Drill Instructors and range personnel while at Ft. Jackson, S.C., and witnessed that very same technique being used at Ft. Benning Ga., and Ft. Polk, La., in 1969 while I was receiving my Basic Training and Advance Infantry training.

If you were a draftee and had any form of marksmanship training I would bet money you were shown the "dime method" of dry firing.


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3doghouse
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Old Post August 01, 2005 04:14    Click Here to See the Profile for 3doghouse   Click here to Send 3doghouse a Private Message   Click Here to Email 3doghouse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #26

Swampy,

I'll give you credit for stimulating the conversation!

But I disagree with your opinion, and find many faults with your techniques of persuasion.

I welcome a non-conventional approach to training if:


  • It is respectful of proven techniques
  • It is more effective than conventional techniques
  • It offers a more effective solution


In my sincerely humble opinion, your posts don't fit these profiles.

If you want to take your "expert opinion" to a novice audience, you might find some followers, but people that have reached a level of proficiency by tried and true techniques are not likely to accept a position that directly contradicts their training.

There are many highly-trained people on this site.

I'm speaking only for myself, but I find your insinuation that a significant portion of shooters embrace an unsafe practice insulting, erroneous, and ill-founded.

I wish you well, but suggest that you re-evaluate your position.

EDIT:

P.S. This is great:

quote:
ERROR 406: file corrupt: config.america -- reboot constitution? (Y/N)


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Last edited by 3doghouse on August 01, 2005 at 04:46


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 10:47    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #27

Well Guy , I see this place has a lot of big egos to feed , but the fact is those of you that advocate dry firing as a necessary practice to become good at marksmanship , know absolutely nothing I need to know about firearms, end of story.


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Bruce Allen
Entrepreneur

FALaholic # 186

Old Post August 01, 2005 13:24    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #28

Swamp fox- Again you get insulting.

Why is that? Just because we are not conforming to what you want?

What is it you need to know?

Also, what has your training with firearms been to date, and your qualifications there of?


BTW - I have not stated dry firing is a necessity but " Dry fire practice is a cheap and easy way to produce results in one's skill level."

It has been shown over the span of years that dry firing is a valuable training aid for both novice and experienced shooters.

Not a single person has bragged about anything in this post, but stated qualifications or experiences, so to state there are big egos to feed was totally out of line and unnecessary.

It is regrettable we are not fitting into your agenda, but you asked the question so don't be an ass if you don't like the honest and thoughtful answers you get.


I take it you are leaving now?


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Sgt_Gold
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Old Post August 01, 2005 13:37    Click Here to See the Profile for Sgt_Gold   Click here to Send Sgt_Gold a Private Message   Click Here to Email Sgt_Gold     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #29

BTW, do you have ANY prefessional or recreational credentials to bolster your claim about dry firing? I wish I had your skill, time, and money so I could go to Perry and clean up against the likes of Brian Zins and David Tubb. They dry fire alot so they can't be very good

Don't let the reboot button hit your arse on the way out

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
Well Guy , I see this place has a lot of big egos to feed , but the fact is those of you that advocate dry firing as a necessary practice to become good at marksmanship , know absolutely nothing I need to know about firearms, end of story.



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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 18:42    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #30

Ok Guys , I have a question. In my research for this article, I've come across several things that concern me, one of which is disclaimers. Please take notice to an article written by Ed Skinner and you'll see a disclaimer appears. Now , with all due respect to Mr. Skinner , what in the world could he possibly know about firearms that anyone else would need to know if he's not confident enough in his rhetoric to do it without a disclaimer? Actually, the fact is, anyone using a disclaimer doesn't know anything anyone else needs to know about firearms, they just think they do.

http://www.flat5.net/trashcansnapcap.html



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Stranger
Contributor
Contributor

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Old Post August 01, 2005 18:45    Click Here to See the Profile for Stranger   Click here to Send Stranger a Private Message   Click Here to Email Stranger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #31

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
... you haven't provided any scientifically evidence that dry firing was the reason behind your success. So therefore, its just your word with no proof.


You first.

How can you obtain "scientific evidence" for either opinion?



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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 18:50    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #32

With all due respect ,Stanger . I'm not the one trying to sell a product here. However , I do believe I could mathematically prove that dry firing is a waste of time, not to mention totally unsafe.


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Sgt_Gold
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Old Post August 01, 2005 19:12    Click Here to See the Profile for Sgt_Gold   Click here to Send Sgt_Gold a Private Message   Click Here to Email Sgt_Gold     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #33

I don't know where you've been the last 30 or so years, but the litigation climate in the U.S. has reached stupid proportions. People sue for anything anytime for any reason without cause or merit. If I were offering do it your self gun construction, you better believe a disclamer would be involved.

As to the anit dry firing thread, how are you going to 'prove' that it's a waste of time? Every master and high master I know of uses dry fire as a training tool an I've used it to help me isolate trigger control probles in my bullseye shooting.

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
Now , with all due respect to Mr. Skinner , what in the world could he possibly know about firearms that anyone else would need to know if he's not confident enough in his rhetoric to do it without a disclaimer? Actually, the fact is, anyone using a disclaimer doesn't know anything anyone else needs to know about firearms, they just think they do.

http://www.flat5.net/trashcansnapcap.html




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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 19:18    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #34

Sgt_Gold , I wonder why they don't require someone to sign a disclaimer when taking the hunters safety course? But then again, these guys( hunters) are not trained human killers.


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Hole Puncher
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Old Post August 01, 2005 19:29    Click Here to See the Profile for Hole Puncher   Click here to Send Hole Puncher a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #35

I am curious to know how "dry firing" is unsafe. When I pull the trigger, the gun is empty. You can't get safer than having an empty gun...

Now, if you are talking about behaviors and patterns that carry over when the gun is loaded, well that speaks for and against your argument now doesn't it?


Last edited by Hole Puncher on August 01, 2005 at 23:12


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Sgt_Gold
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Old Post August 01, 2005 19:31    Click Here to See the Profile for Sgt_Gold   Click here to Send Sgt_Gold a Private Message   Click Here to Email Sgt_Gold     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #36

I don't hunt and have never taken the safety course but both the fish and hunt club I belong to as well as one of the public ranges requires a signed disclaimer before you're allowed to use the facilities. The safety course I had to take to get my pistol license was given by the county sheriff's department and we did sign some paperwork, I just don't remember if there was a disclaimer.


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 19:37    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #37

Hole Punche , I'm not sure how others handle firearms, but from my perspective, a gun is always to be treated as if is loaded, therefore there is no mistake or excuses . Even if I have a firearm completely taken apart , I treated as if it loaded therefore I need no disclaimer

Last edited by Swamp Fox on August 01, 2005 at 20:10


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 19:45    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #38

Sgt_Gold, its one thing to sign a disclaimer using someone else's facilities, but a complete different thing to be required if a person is giving instructions. I understand there's some guy by the name of Chuck Taylor that has some kind of training school and I've been trying to find out if a student is required to sign a disclaimer? Maybe some of you guys know?


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Bruce Allen
Entrepreneur

FALaholic # 186

Old Post August 01, 2005 22:10    Click Here to See the Profile for Bruce Allen   Click here to Send Bruce Allen a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #39

Swamp Fox:
You have been asked some questions that have not yet been answered.

Are you going answer them?

If not, why?


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 22:21    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #40

Well Bruce, why don't you refresh my memory on the questions and in meantime think about an answer to mind.


A quote from Mr. Jim Owens article: "Wives or girl friends get very upset with bullet holes in the ceiling," that ended up hitting little junior while he was sleeping. Or this one taking from Dry Firing linked below .Please take notice to the embarrassing "bang" and oh I'm sorry your dead, I didn't know the gun was loaded. "By confining the dry firing to a specific area and target we can help to eliminate negligent discharges resulting from the "one more time" syndrome in which the shooter does one more practice drill but forgets that the firearm is now live resulting in an embarrassing "bang" when one expected a "click." Leaving a designated area and removing the target help to reinforce the notion that practice time is over." Dry Firing Practice http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/safety.htm Now , I'll admit I'm not the best reader in the world, but can someone please explain to me how this is not advocating or endorsing an unsafe practice?



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Stranger
Contributor
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Old Post August 01, 2005 22:23    Click Here to See the Profile for Stranger   Click here to Send Stranger a Private Message   Click Here to Email Stranger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #41

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
With all due respect ,Stanger . I'm not the one trying to sell a product here. However , I do believe I could mathematically prove that dry firing is a waste of time, not to mention totally unsafe.


Who is trying to sell a product? It doesn't cost anything but time to dry fire most modern firearms.

I use dry-firing to determine trigger break/function especially when stoning to get the best possible trigger "feel". I don't spend hours every week using it as a training function.

It takes a real goof not to observe proper muzzle control when pulling the trigger on a firearm. IMHO every unintentional discharge is a negligent discharge. Just like I don't have ammo around when I am cleaning, I don't have ammo around when I am dry-firing. Maybe I shouldn't own a firearm so as to marginally reduce the risk I might get shot...

BTW, I pull the trigger on an empty chamber before storing my rifles to reduce strain on the springs in the HTS system.

So, back at you... prove that it doesn't work.



Last edited by Stranger on August 01, 2005 at 22:31


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 22:29    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #42

What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice are my opinion be responsible, not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns.


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Stranger
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Old Post August 01, 2005 22:33    Click Here to See the Profile for Stranger   Click here to Send Stranger a Private Message   Click Here to Email Stranger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #43

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice are my opinion be responsible, not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns.


Do you really think they need a reason to take our guns?

I haven't ever had an accident and I don't personally know anyone who has had an accident as a result of dry firing. That is good enough for me.



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woodenword
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Old Post August 01, 2005 23:10    Click Here to See the Profile for woodenword   Click here to Send woodenword a Private Message   Click Here to Email woodenword     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #44

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice are my opinion be responsible, not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns.


Ok, so I guess we are all waiting on your mathematical proof. Cause all I have seen here is your opinion.

It befuddles me that anyone could be so naive.



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3doghouse
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Old Post August 01, 2005 23:18    Click Here to See the Profile for 3doghouse   Click here to Send 3doghouse a Private Message   Click Here to Email 3doghouse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #45

[Ignore]

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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 01, 2005 23:37    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #46

Actually woodenword , I had a typo in that paragraph , this is how it should read

."What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably an unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice in my opinion are irresponsible , not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns."


Last edited by Swamp Fox on August 01, 2005 at 23:50


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Stranger
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Old Post August 02, 2005 00:19    Click Here to See the Profile for Stranger   Click here to Send Stranger a Private Message   Click Here to Email Stranger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #47

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
Actually woodenword , I had a typo in that paragraph , this is how it should read

."What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably an unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice in my opinion are irresponsible , not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns."



So, you have a cartridge in the chamber every time the hammer falls in one of your firearms?



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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 02, 2005 00:37    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #48

Stranger , not all my firearms have hammers , but to answer your question, yes. I never squeeze the trigger unless firearm is loaded, or not that I'll ever openly admit it.

I once wrote , telling me there is a such thing as a safe dry fire , is like saying Santa Claus doesn't exist, now why in the world would anyone ever want to do that?

My question to all those that openly advocate or endorse this practice , why is it so important to claim something you can't prove?



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fire for effect
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Old Post August 02, 2005 00:44    Click Here to See the Profile for fire for effect   Click here to Send fire for effect a Private Message   Click Here to Email fire for effect     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #49

quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox
What I can prove ,"Dry Firing" is unquestionably unsafe practice , and those that advocate or openly endorse this practice are my opinion be responsible, not to mention give reason to the anti-gun folks to want to take our guns.


I am sad to say, and I really mean 'sad', but I am sad to say, that all you are proving, is that you are a nut case.

If you have an AD, while "Dry Firing", then obviously the gun wasn't dry, Was it!!


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Headquarters, Army of Tennessee
September, 1864


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Swamp Fox
Banned for just plain stoopid

FALaholic # 17818

Old Post August 02, 2005 00:55    Click Here to See the Profile for Swamp Fox   Click here to Send Swamp Fox a Private Message   Click Here to Email Swamp Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #50

In all honesty , folks . I never had a clue they actually invented products to train someone in dry firing. Training Gun http://www.dry-fire.com/ . Now, I've never come across a more irresponsible piece of equipment in my entire life. For the record, I've been handling firearms for over 48 years , with a fairly decent collection. I've also been privilege to have hunted with hundreds if not thousands of different guys throughout my lifetime . I've actually been a part of a group where some guy dry fired his rifle after cleaning it in a hunting camp with approximately 20 other guy and was immediately asked to leave , because the other hunters seen this as being irresponsible .

Last edited by Swamp Fox on August 02, 2005 at 01:01


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