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The FAL Files Forums  »  Weapons Discussion » Gunsmithing & Build It Yourself » Alternative to pin gages?
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Topic: Alternative to pin gages?
Patrick Bateman
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FALaholic # 5182

Old Post January 30, 2002 20:00    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #1

I have several very good quality calipers in my tool chest. I'm wondering if I can get around having to buy those rods that are used to measure headspace by using something like drill bits or something like it and measure the bits and find what I need.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: gary.jeter ]

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Patrick Bateman ]



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FALPhil
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Old Post January 30, 2002 20:06    Click Here to See the Profile for FALPhil   Click here to Send FALPhil a Private Message   Click Here to Email FALPhil   Visit FALPhil's homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #2

MSC Direct

They are called pin gages. Here are the sizes and part numbers. Yo can probably get away with buying every other one.

Item No Description
88925409 .2540+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88925508 .2550+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88925607 .2560+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88925706 .2570+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88925805 .2580+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88925904 .2590+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926001 .2600+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926100 .2610+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926209 .2620+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926308 .2630+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926407 .2640+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926506 .2650+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926605 .2660+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926704 .2670+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926803 .2680+ CLASS ZZ GAGE
88926902 .2690+ CLASS ZZ GAGE


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Convert your Saiga at
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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 30, 2002 20:16    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #3

For $13.21 each, I probably won't do this. How about a homemade way?


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JeffJ
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Old Post January 30, 2002 20:17    Click Here to See the Profile for JeffJ   Click here to Send JeffJ a Private Message   Click Here to Email JeffJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #4

Who is MSC direct?


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FALPhil
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Old Post January 30, 2002 20:36    Click Here to See the Profile for FALPhil   Click here to Send FALPhil a Private Message   Click Here to Email FALPhil   Visit FALPhil's homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #5

When I bought mine last year, they were $2 each. On page 1508 in the catalog and M3625 in the MRO, they are listed at $2.25 each. You are looking at something else.

Headspace is something you shouldn't scrimp on. It could have deadly consequences. What's your life worth?

MSC Direct

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Bateman:
For $13.21 each, I probably won't do this. How about a homemade way?


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Convert your Saiga at
http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/


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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 30, 2002 20:48    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #6

I forgot to mention that I have the go/no-go gauges too, so I won't do anything that'll make my rifle kb.


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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 30, 2002 21:13    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #7

The plus or minus gages? What's the difference and which ones should I get?


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SF
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Old Post January 30, 2002 21:24    Click Here to See the Profile for SF   Click here to Send SF a Private Message   Click Here to Email SF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #8

The plus and minus refers to .0002 either direction,and will make Zilch difference which you choose.It will be tighter than a Gnat's ass streched over a coke bottle top!


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sixplusone
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Old Post January 30, 2002 22:15    Click Here to See the Profile for sixplusone     Click Here to Email sixplusone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #9

Alternative?

Starret
No.829B Small Hole Gage

Measure 12 times order LS once.



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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 30, 2002 22:26    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #10

What is this Starrett small hole gage? And which ones would I need? Couldn't find it with the number given.


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Wright Brothers Gunsmiths
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Old Post January 30, 2002 22:44    Click Here to See the Profile for Wright Brothers Gunsmiths   Click here to Send Wright Brothers Gunsmiths a Private Message   Click Here to Email Wright Brothers Gunsmiths     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #11

Pin gauges are less money than a "small hole guage",plus they are all but fool proof. Except to a well trained fool!
The small hole gauge is a delicate tool that requires a mikt to measure it's size.
Not a good choice.
The best HS guages are worthless if you don't measure the LS correctly. Heed the warning above,do you like your face?
Buy the pin gauges and then recoup your money by selling them to another builder.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Wright Bros Gunsmiths ]


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"This is a dark ride."


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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 30, 2002 23:00    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #12

How about dowels? I think I heard about them in reference to gages. I will be in Seattle when I put this together. Are there stores over there that deal in these pin gages?


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Uncle Buck
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Old Post January 30, 2002 23:52    Click Here to See the Profile for Uncle Buck   Click here to Send Uncle Buck a Private Message   Click Here to Email Uncle Buck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #13

You can make a casting of the locking shoulder hole with "Cerrocast" or "Cerrosafe" metal. (This is the same stuff gunsmiths use to make a chamber casting). Install the stripped bolt and carrier on a go gauge and tape up the left side of the LS hole. Plug the recess around the back of the bolt with clay. Melt the Cerrocast in hot water, and pour into the hole while you are holding the bolt forward on the gauge. When it cools, knock out the casting and mic it. You would need about 99 cents worth of the casting material, but it is reusable.


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alheil
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Old Post January 31, 2002 00:05    Click Here to See the Profile for alheil   Click here to Send alheil a Private Message   Click Here to Email alheil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #14

MSC's Ph# is 1-800-645-7270 According to their web site.


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sixplusone
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Old Post January 31, 2002 00:14    Click Here to See the Profile for sixplusone     Click Here to Email sixplusone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #15

Patrick you need to go slow and heed the cautions of Board members with more experience. Pin gages are the way to go.
"hold the HS gage firmly into the chamber"
"small hole gage is a delicate tool that requires careful measuring with a Mike"
Setting the small hole gage requires that you hold the bolt SQUARE...Not a good alternative but it is an alternative.
Use the right tool for the job.
PS... Your ejector block has to be flush and parallel to the back of the LS hole also.

Get close then order the LS Pins in the range thats close to what you have /then get exact. And enjoy this build don't hurry it to the point you get frustrated, that's not FUN!@^&*



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jaybob
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Old Post January 31, 2002 00:41    Click Here to See the Profile for jaybob   Click here to Send jaybob a Private Message   Click Here to Email jaybob     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #16

Hey thanks for the info. I just got off the phone with MSC and I ordered every other size from .254-.274 @ $1.53 each. What a deal, they said that it would be here on monday Now if my headspace guages would just show up.

__________________
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3doghouse
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Old Post January 31, 2002 00:53    Click Here to See the Profile for 3doghouse   Click here to Send 3doghouse a Private Message   Click Here to Email 3doghouse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #17

Phil,

Thanks for posting the list of part numbers. Made it easy to follow good advice !


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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 31, 2002 01:51    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #18

I'm more and more sure I'll get them now (every other one I gues) but if I put it all together and put in the locking shoulder I have and it's a little too big for the Go gauge, could I just file it down carefully?


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Patrick Bateman
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Old Post January 31, 2002 03:21    Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick Bateman   Click here to Send Patrick Bateman a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #19

Ok you bastards! I went ahead and ordered the gages. I feel like after I get all the stuff to make one, I'll just end up making more so I'll put to use the tools I spent my money on! But I won't let that happen. I WILL NOT!!!


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Atarget
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Old Post February 01, 2002 03:39    Click Here to See the Profile for Atarget   Click here to Send Atarget a Private Message   Click Here to Email Atarget     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #20

patrick bateman,
From the easy to understand information given and the dificulty your having,I would suggest you send the kit to ARS or AZEX for the build.Might save your life!


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FWRA
Curio & Relic

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Old Post February 01, 2002 05:32    Click Here to See the Profile for FWRA         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #21

Let's not forget the excellent locking shoulder sizing rods sold here by a couple of vendors. No pulling out a bunch of pins needed either.

I like MSC too but their catalogs are truly hated by the local Mailman who seems to bring me one at least once a week.

It's always a good thing to support our members when we can.

It's all about choices.

FWRA


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FWRA



I'm very pleased with each advancing year. It stems back to when I was forty. I was a bit upset about reaching that milestone, but an older friend consoled me. 'Don't complain about growing old - many, many people do not have that privilege.'
Earl Warren (1891 - 1974), Chief Justice


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tigerfans2
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Old Post February 01, 2002 15:53    Click Here to See the Profile for tigerfans2   Click here to Send tigerfans2 a Private Message   Click Here to Email tigerfans2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #22

About to take the plunge here, who sells the locking shoulder sizing rods ?


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FWRA
Curio & Relic

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Old Post February 01, 2002 16:47    Click Here to See the Profile for FWRA         Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #23

quote:
Originally posted by tigerfans2:
About to take the plunge here, who sells the locking shoulder sizing rods ?


Wadman has a sale going now. Go here: http://www.falfiles.com/cgi-bin/for...ic&f=2&t=008258

Casey Elliot sells 'em too, go here: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/tools4fals/

Moses does to:
gjohnnygun@aol.com

All great vendors!
(sorry if I missed anyone, not intentional. )

FWRA


__________________

FWRA



I'm very pleased with each advancing year. It stems back to when I was forty. I was a bit upset about reaching that milestone, but an older friend consoled me. 'Don't complain about growing old - many, many people do not have that privilege.'
Earl Warren (1891 - 1974), Chief Justice


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LarryLove
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Old Post May 21, 2002 03:35    Click Here to See the Profile for LarryLove   Click here to Send LarryLove a Private Message   Click Here to Email LarryLove     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #24

I'm bumping this INCREDIBLY HELPFUL THREAD back to the top. I just purchased my pin gauges online from MSC - thanks to Phil for posting the item numbers.

$2.25 each, and I bought every other one (even numbers). Came to $18 before shipping.

Going through my first build experience right now, and I knew I'd find certain threads in the archives that would be of key importance. This was one of them, so BTT for any other build-newbies getting started!



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falover
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Old Post May 21, 2002 03:46    Click Here to See the Profile for falover   Click here to Send falover a Private Message   Click Here to Email falover     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #25

just FYI, anytime someone sells a set of pin gauges on this board they are sold in hours if not minutes. so if you are worried about costs don't be. you can easily recupe most of your investment by selling them when you are done building. just my 2 cents.

__________________
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It is the ability to transcend fear

Remember the W.T.C. 9-11-01


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-UHLEK-
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Old Post October 09, 2003 07:49    Click Here to See the Profile for -UHLEK-   Click here to Send -UHLEK- a Private Message   Click Here to Email -UHLEK-     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #26

Another bump.

As a newbie to the FAL, I found this EXTREMELY HELPFUL.

Hopefully it will help amother noob like me.

-UHLEK-



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bushflyr
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Old Post October 09, 2003 13:38    Click Here to See the Profile for bushflyr   Click here to Send bushflyr a Private Message   Click Here to Email bushflyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #27

If you have a good set of calipers pin gauges are completely unnecessary. I just took a piece of brass rod a little smaller than my locking shoulder size and built it up with a bit of tape till the dimensions matched. Put tape only on 1/2 of the rod and make sure bare metal faces foreward (ie the bolt rides down on bare metal) so tha tape doesn't tear and only use a couple layers of tape to eliminate crushing. Masking tape is about .004 and scotch tape is .002.

Another tape trick. You don't need a nogo gauge, factory 7.62 nogo is 1.638, the same as a Forster field gauge. When I do a final check I use a Forster go (1.630") with a piece of masking tape on the back, 1.634 total, or .308 nogo. A double check with the field keeps everything safe.



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Radio
10 Years on the Files

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Old Post October 09, 2003 21:30    Click Here to See the Profile for Radio   Click here to Send Radio a Private Message   Click Here to Email Radio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #28

If you live in a third-world country, and make only about $600 a year, the above cheap tricks might be something to think about.

Of course, in your third-world country, life is cheap and usually short. What's a little thing to put 50,000psi directly next to your right eye and cheek in an iffy, guessed-at, unrepeatable-"measurement" assembly. You'll probably die by age 35 anyway, what the hell.

You sure take a LOT of chances to save about $30 bucks.

--Radio


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bushflyr
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Old Post October 10, 2003 08:18    Click Here to See the Profile for bushflyr   Click here to Send bushflyr a Private Message   Click Here to Email bushflyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #29

I wondered how long it was goint to take for someone to "flame on" for that one. Honestly, I don't see where I'm taking any chances at all. Except for maybe having to press the shoulder back out if I miss measure. The headspace is checked AFTER assembly using 7.62 NATO spec gauges. The latter bit of WECSOGgery (tape on go gauge) tells me EXACTLY where the headspace is. I respect your opinion, Radio, but you're going to have to splain where I'm risking life and limb.


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grimaila
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Old Post August 01, 2005 01:03    Click Here to See the Profile for grimaila   Click here to Send grimaila a Private Message   Click Here to Email grimaila     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #30

Another FAL newbie chiming in.....

You'all are an excellent resource....

God Bless America and the FAL Files Forum.

MikeG



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uscgjason
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Old Post August 01, 2005 03:40    Click Here to See the Profile for uscgjason   Click here to Send uscgjason a Private Message   Click Here to Email uscgjason     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #31

I know its one of the hated places but I found a complete set of pin gauges on ebay for less than $20.00. Take a look sometimes you get lucky (not often)
Jason


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lawdog1
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Old Post September 24, 2006 07:40    Click Here to See the Profile for lawdog1   Click here to Send lawdog1 a Private Message   Click Here to Email lawdog1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #32

Current prices from MSC are $2.78 each. + shipping + tax = $57.00

Is your life worth $60.00?



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davedude
Navy Dad
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Old Post September 24, 2006 19:21    Click Here to See the Profile for davedude   Click here to Send davedude a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #33

quote:
Is your life worth $60.00?


Dude! I heard that! After I saw how cheap they was, I bought sixteen of them!
MSC delivers FAST too.....
And not only got the pin gauges but I bought headspace go/no-go gauges for .308 from Brownells, and I went ahead and got em for my 30-06 as well!

My Philippino girlfreind likes my face and my fingers, she wants me to keep them....


Dave Dude



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indy_Muaddib
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Old Post September 24, 2006 20:19    Click Here to See the Profile for indy_Muaddib   Click here to Send indy_Muaddib a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #34

glad somebody brought this back from the dead, i was looking for an alternative to a pin gauge and a micrometer.

__________________
All government, in its essence, is a conspiracy against the superior man: its one permanent object is to oppress him and cripple him. If it be aristocratic in organization, then it seeks to protect the man who is superior only in law against the man who is superior in fact; if it be democratic, then it seeks to protect the man who is inferior in every way against both. One of its primary functions is to regiment men by force, to make them as much alike as possible and as dependent upon one another as possible, to search out and combat originality among them. All it can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are.

-H.L. Mencken 1919




Were not that lucky.


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william013
Low - Tech Redneck
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Old Post September 24, 2006 21:30    Click Here to See the Profile for william013   Click here to Send william013 a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #35

I used to be a gunsmith in the Army. Believe me when I say you DO NOT want

to screw up headspacing a rifle. If you don't want to buy a set of pin gages,

check with a local machine shop and ask about renting or borrowing a set.

BTW, there is a thread where someone was checking how his magazine was

feeding when he experienced a 7.62 round that fired before the bolt locked.

That picture is worth 10,000 words of warning. I will try to find and post it.



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indy_Muaddib
Curio & Relic
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FALaholic # 17581

Old Post September 25, 2006 00:57    Click Here to See the Profile for indy_Muaddib   Click here to Send indy_Muaddib a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #36

i figure a set like this would be a bit more precise than me using a gauge rod and a micrometer to try to get the right size shoulder

__________________
All government, in its essence, is a conspiracy against the superior man: its one permanent object is to oppress him and cripple him. If it be aristocratic in organization, then it seeks to protect the man who is superior only in law against the man who is superior in fact; if it be democratic, then it seeks to protect the man who is inferior in every way against both. One of its primary functions is to regiment men by force, to make them as much alike as possible and as dependent upon one another as possible, to search out and combat originality among them. All it can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are.

-H.L. Mencken 1919




Were not that lucky.


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dos3885
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Old Post September 25, 2006 03:06    Click Here to See the Profile for dos3885   Click here to Send dos3885 a Private Message   Click Here to Email dos3885     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #37

I ordered my pin gages from , www.travers.com at $2.00 each.


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william013
Low - Tech Redneck
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Old Post September 26, 2006 03:38    Click Here to See the Profile for william013   Click here to Send william013 a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #38

Finally found the thread. Goto the General Firearms Discussion- My FAL KB

Updated- Post #26. This is what happens when the bolt is not locked. Better

yet, read the whole thread. WBA



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lawdog1
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Old Post September 26, 2006 14:11    Click Here to See the Profile for lawdog1   Click here to Send lawdog1 a Private Message   Click Here to Email lawdog1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #39

Here's the link: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/show...threadid=179893


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barryjyoung
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Old Post April 17, 2008 21:54    Click Here to See the Profile for barryjyoung   Click here to Send barryjyoung a Private Message   Click Here to Email barryjyoung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #40

The gages (often spelled gauges in the non-machining community) you have been discussing are cylindrical plug gages, not "pin gages". This may be why people have been having a hard time finding them via search engine.

In my opinion the idea of building up a rod with tape to measure headspace is a bad idea because the caliper jaws used to measure the tape have a different surface area than the face on the bolt which contacts the locking shoulder. This would cause a different amount of tape compression than the bolt would. The measurement would be incorrect. If you cannot afford the right equipment, have someone else do the job.

A small hole gage is the wrong tool to use for headspacing FAL variants because the side of the gage ball opposite the bolt contact area cannot be supported by the receivers locking shoulder hole. I see no way that this tool can even be used for this job.

Plug gages are the way to go. Wholesale Tool has sets including gages from .062 to .250 for less than $40. These gages are very useful for many things. If you do any work at all in your shop you could find a good use for them.

Barry



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Bama Steve
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Old Post April 17, 2008 23:38    Click Here to See the Profile for Bama Steve   Click here to Send Bama Steve a Private Message       Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #41

Do you own a drill bit set?
That and a set of calipers and you are set to go.

Just ask GP . . .



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Hellion Productions
Addicted To 7.62 NATO
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Old Post April 18, 2008 10:34    Click Here to See the Profile for Hellion Productions   Click here to Send Hellion Productions a Private Message   Click Here to Email Hellion Productions   Visit Hellion Productions's homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #42

Buy a sizing rod from moses. Good stuff. I've done a few rifles with one.

Best,
John Bear Ross


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powermad
riff raff
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Old Post April 18, 2008 12:27    Click Here to See the Profile for powermad   Click here to Send powermad a Private Message   Click Here to Email powermad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #43

Get em all...
$35, shipping was a bitch.

Got em out of the marketplace.



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Radio
10 Years on the Files

FALaholic # 263

Old Post April 22, 2008 23:20    Click Here to See the Profile for Radio   Click here to Send Radio a Private Message   Click Here to Email Radio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #44

Good heavens... what a set!!!

quote:
The gages... are... plug... not "pin gages".
Uh, sorry to be contrary... MSC Industrial Supply Pin Gages And Accessories


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shortround
Former Republican
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FALaholic # 1503

Old Post April 23, 2008 02:36    Click Here to See the Profile for shortround   Click here to Send shortround a Private Message   Click Here to Email shortround     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote Post #45

quote:
Originally posted by barryjyoung
The gages (often spelled gauges in the non-machining community) you have been discussing are cylindrical plug gages, not "pin gages". This may be why people have been having a hard time finding them via search engine...yada, yada...Barry


Is there some reason to bring up a SIX year old (look at the first post date) thread just to correct someone's nomenclature?



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