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Old December 31, 2017, 22:07   #51
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It should be one cop yelling, or using a megaphone, and giving short and clear commands.
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Old January 01, 2018, 10:32   #52
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It should be one cop yelling, or using a megaphone, and giving short and clear commands.
yes,

all too often there are up to 3 or more cops screaming different commands/demands that cannot be understood, all contradict all other commands/demands, this has been backed up by video w/ audio over the last 5 years

too many cops have been shown on video that they cannot handle any kind of stress and totally wigg-out ...... resulting in dead citizens that do not deserve to die, maybe they can ride a desk with absolutely no interaction w/ others and defiantly not be allowed to touch any weapon

too many excuses have been offered for piss-poor on the job performance

good example is the hotel shooting in AZ, Sgt. on site escalated situation to the point he had cop on floor w/ AR w/ (you're f*cked) laser engraved on upper to shoot and kill innocent schlub ....... that was a execution directed by Sgt. and carried out by brain dead drone

newest terrorist threat is po-po, and you are 10 X more likely to be shot and killed if you are a white male doing nothing wrong, statistics will back this up
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Old January 01, 2018, 11:57   #53
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http://www.kansascity.com/news/local...192297739.html

Perp appears to be of ME extraction.
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Old January 01, 2018, 13:26   #54
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The prankster strikes me as a typical “I did not get enough attention from my parents” - type guy, an attention hungry little d*ckhead that likes to mess up other people’s lives.

Now he’s getting all the attention he wants, this little dimwit.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to make any excuses for WPD’s actions.
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Old January 01, 2018, 15:29   #55
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Based upon the poor quality video, the argument that the officer "murdered" anyone is asinine. What IS apparent, is the fact that the person on the porch repeatedly dropped and raised his arms, despite te fact that he was instructed to keep his arms raised by armed police officers.
Simon-says-and-you-will-obey-or-die: Hands up!
Simon-says-and-you-will-obey-or-die: Walk this way!

To comply with the last simon-says-and-you-will-obey-or-die the guy by the door must lower his hand to open the front door.

So, which simon-says-and-you-will-obey-or-die does the civilian (let's use the cop terminology here) obey? They are contradictory. Looks like the civlian did not know either, so he gets popped because cop was scared and went to us-vs-them mode.

The system works!

Also, good thing cops don't have to worry about the "make sure you know what is behind the target" rule when they shoot.
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Old January 01, 2018, 20:13   #56
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I can imagine that I would probably be dead if I ever had my door busted down by mistake. That is the last thing I would be expecting on a cool winter night, as I sit by my computer reading the 'files with a glass of red wine in my hand..

I think my first reaction would be "WTF is going on? Do I need to be reacting to save my life?". That is a "why" question. The police are telling you "what" to do. It might take me the rest of my life to figure out that little detail.
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Old January 02, 2018, 12:11   #57
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I can imagine that I would probably be dead if I ever had my door busted down by mistake. That is the last thing I would be expecting on a cool winter night, as I sit by my computer reading the 'files with a glass of red wine in my hand..

I think my first reaction would be "WTF is going on? Do I need to be reacting to save my life?". That is a "why" question. The police are telling you "what" to do. It might take me the rest of my life to figure out that little detail.
yep and add that you're completely blinded by the flashing lights and will naturally lift your hands to shade your eyes.
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Old January 02, 2018, 20:08   #58
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I really try to support cops but something needs to be done about how they approach this chit.
This +1.
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Old January 02, 2018, 20:14   #59
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The reason behind twenty cops yelling and screaming all at once with confusing orders is to disorient the person so he doesn't "follow orders" and then have the opportunity to snuff the guy. Guilt or innocence doesn't even come into the equation until later.
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Old January 02, 2018, 21:57   #60
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I know, and have known, many excellent cops of high professional and ethical character. When I see these things happening with greater and greater frequency, I do feel for the backlash that comes down on them.

With some of the whackadoos that seem to be popping up more and more often, I can understand that that feeds into the stress for the officer. HOWEVER, I don't believe it excuses situations like this one or the AZ shoot, based upon the circumstances as I have heard them. In both cases, it certainly appears to me that some pretty basic police training could have prevented both of these instances.

We need an environment with more respect going both ways - chicken or egg, who goes first ?
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Old January 05, 2018, 00:17   #61
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1. I continue to struggle to understand why a heavily armed, heavily armored SWAT team needs to play things so safely. They have all this technology, and they will shoot someone who may have a small knife, Jennings 22, or whatever. I’d understand their concern if there was any shred to suggest there was a battle rifle in play... but that’s so rare. I guess I’d just hope that the cops would, as part of their professional code, be willing to take some risks every once in a while. I mean, if the guy were to pull a pistol on a squad of AR-armed, Level IV armored dudes... they are still going to make it through, in all likelihood.

What if doctors refused to take the risk of treating people with communicable diseases? That’s the analogy. In both cases, a professional will (or should) put themselves at some risk to do their job and help others.

2. I’ve also wondered whether the abrupt change to the principle that cop lives are higher priority than public lives (or, it’s-me-or-them) originated from tactical consultants/schools, change in military doctrine that spread to the police, or something else. I’ve been to some tactical courses with cops present as instructors and students and that mindset colored a lot of the tactics taught. If those schools didn’t start it they are definitely amplifying the problem.
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Old January 05, 2018, 03:42   #62
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Originally Posted by ronpaulFAL View Post
1. I continue to struggle to understand why a heavily armed, heavily armored SWAT team needs to play things so safely. They have all this technology, and they will shoot someone who may have a small knife, Jennings 22, or whatever. I’d understand their concern if there was any shred to suggest there was a battle rifle in play... but that’s so rare. I guess I’d just hope that the cops would, as part of their professional code, be willing to take some risks every once in a while. I mean, if the guy were to pull a pistol on a squad of AR-armed, Level IV armored dudes... they are still going to make it through, in all likelihood.

What if doctors refused to take the risk of treating people with communicable diseases? That’s the analogy. In both cases, a professional will (or should) put themselves at some risk to do their job and help others.

2. I’ve also wondered whether the abrupt change to the principle that cop lives are higher priority than public lives (or, it’s-me-or-them) originated from tactical consultants/schools, change in military doctrine that spread to the police, or something else. I’ve been to some tactical courses with cops present as instructors and students and that mindset colored a lot of the tactics taught. If those schools didn’t start it they are definitely amplifying the problem.
Regarding your #2
It was hardly anything abrupt, actually was quite gradual, mostly started in the mid 70s.
By the late 70s any threat against Fed LE or family was prosecutable. In the 70s K9s were NOT officers, they were damn Dawgs
I am sorry
it's an animal
Officer Opie starts chewing your face most courts will see a problem there, you prevent some damned pig pet from doing the same you are assaulting an officer. No, it's just another vicious animal and as a human I have every right to kill your mutt.

That's just how far off the tracks we have gone as a society...piglet puppies have more authority and right to life then people.

I see very useful purposes for K9s but when their death results in a greater penalty than murdering some homeless bum who is a HUMAN well shit be just way messed up

Lets take this further
For Years retired LE have been given the right to concealed carry under Federal Law, dates back to the 80s off the top of my head. This over rights all State code, it's Federal law. A retired officer from podunk nowhere midwest can lawfully pack a 1911 even in New York City under the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act.

I am cool with that but it should apply to anyone with valid CCW
Way more LE shit the bed than CCW holders, that's a provable fact. Yeah NY and NJ hate that law but push comes to shove they have to give the piece back and send you on your way as LE. NJ will go after folks with larger mags or the wrong projectiles but LE cases are often dismissed.

Sorry, Cops are just god damned People

Again, this all started decades ago, the worst of this crap pushed by Law and Odor Conservative types

Gun control measures are comical in this regards
the AW ban didn't apply to piglets, neither did 922r
in fact all the recent anti bump fire stock bills gave an exemption to piglets
Does anyone here actually believe Cops use bump fire stocks on duty weapons ? Hell NO...
It's all about getting LE being all special peoples
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Old January 05, 2018, 08:59   #63
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It's private property and an unsolicited visit, they have no right to demand anything at all.
That sums it up right there.
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Old January 05, 2018, 14:30   #64
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50,000 assaults on cops last year and plenty of cops dying.
THAT is the reason for caution, as many domestic calls turn into fights.

I agree that the cops should have tried to call the house and to negotiate, but instead, the asshole shot the victim at long distance, never considering that the address might be wrong or that the entire situation might be a hoax.

The Cal perp should do time in Kansas for a capital crime; false reports that kill officers or civilians are prosecutable.

The shooter cop should be cast out today.

The family was rousted and their civil rights violated, and they will get millions.
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Old January 05, 2018, 15:02   #65
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50,000 assaults on cops last year and plenty of cops dying.
Yep. If it gets much worse, being a cop will be as dangerous as being a farmer or construction worker.
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Old January 05, 2018, 17:06   #66
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Wichita deputy chief Troy Livingston said in a Facebook video Friday that the caller continued speaking with 911 after officers had arrived at the house.
The department would not answer questions Wednesday about when Finch was given the first verbal command or when the 911 call ended. The Sedgwick County Department of Emergency Communications denied an open records request pertaining to the 911 call that could have provided more details on how events unfolded. The county said the police department had asked that no additional records be released.
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/cri...192846389.html

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Old January 06, 2018, 15:25   #67
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Yep. If it gets much worse, being a cop will be as dangerous as being a farmer or construction worker.
Yep, because today might be the day the combine decides he's had enough of your shit, he ain't gonna cut no more wheat and he'd rather go to the scrapyard than go in that field one more time... As a farmer, I can turn off the PTO on the tractor before I go clear the jam in the baler or crusher. Or not and get killed by it. As a roofer, I can rig up proper fall protection and wear the right harness to keep me safe. Or not and fall off the roof and get my dumb ass killed.

Unfortunately, while I can somewhat mitigate the risk to me on a traffic stop by choosing what offenses to stop someone for and choosing the location of the stop, I still have to walk up to that vehicle and contact the driver. That shit can go bad in a heartbeat and people die; not a lot of that happening in logging, farming or construction.

I keep saying this but the danger inherent in police work is not like other dangerous jobs where the danger is both predictable and therefore preventable. The danger in police work is the very unpredictability of the threat. Is the domestic violence call I go to tonight going to be the one where the aggressor has been pushed to his or her limits and has decided they would rather die, taking a cop with them, than go to jail?

Kinda like this: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/3...ouglas-county/
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Old January 07, 2018, 07:35   #68
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Story,

Looks like the Wichita PD is starting the serious covering of the ass while they get their story together. I bet the city ends up paying out big on this one.

I wonder if it causes any serious changes in PD response, or if the nervous shooter faces any repercussions.

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Old January 07, 2018, 07:40   #69
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Yep, because today might be the day the combine decides he's had enough of your shit, he ain't gonna cut no more wheat and he'd rather go to the scrapyard than go in that field one more time... As a farmer, I can turn off the PTO on the tractor before I go clear the jam in the baler or crusher. Or not and get killed by it. As a roofer, I can rig up proper fall protection and wear the right harness to keep me safe. Or not and fall off the roof and get my dumb ass killed.

Unfortunately, while I can somewhat mitigate the risk to me on a traffic stop by choosing what offenses to stop someone for and choosing the location of the stop, I still have to walk up to that vehicle and contact the driver. That shit can go bad in a heartbeat and people die; not a lot of that happening in logging, farming or construction.

I keep saying this but the danger inherent in police work is not like other dangerous jobs where the danger is both predictable and therefore preventable. The danger in police work is the very unpredictability of the threat. Is the domestic violence call I go to tonight going to be the one where the aggressor has been pushed to his or her limits and has decided they would rather die, taking a cop with them, than go to jail?

Kinda like this: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/3...ouglas-county/
Well yeah no question you are correct.
Kind of like a freak wave sloshing over a trawler as I see it
Shit Happens

As far as actual "assaults" on LEOs
thats mostly BS stats
You so much as touch a cop these days it can be charged as an assault
Get this, in the 70s a friend of mine was cuffed & stuffed by a nasty porker over "Threatening an Officer" over telling him to "F" Off !!!
Big party, we all started chanting "F" Off Pigs after they stuffed him
Piggie Patrol didn't know what to do
3 dopes against maybe 200 men and women, the gals were tossing beer bottles at the cars, took one windshield clean out.

point is idiot was found guilty. See in MN if you say FU to a porker within so many feet it's a threat to rape and sodomize them...

This was around long before that made up "obstruction of justice" horseshit
Used to be just a Disorderly, these days you get banged up with the more serious count of Obstructing.
basically if you don't do simon sez and beg on bent knee you are obstructing THEIR Authority for as little as questioning them.

Well that's just wrong
pretty much Turd Reich shit.
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Old January 07, 2018, 07:44   #70
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Unfortunately, while I can somewhat mitigate the risk to me on a traffic stop by choosing what offenses to stop someone for and choosing the location of the stop, I still have to walk up to that vehicle and contact the driver. That shit can go bad in a heartbeat and people die; not a lot of that happening in logging, farming or construction.
Are you making the argument that police officer is the most dangerous job in the US?

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I keep saying this but the danger inherent in police work is not like other dangerous jobs where the danger is both predictable and therefore preventable. The danger in police work is the very unpredictability of the threat. Is the domestic violence call I go to tonight going to be the one where the aggressor has been pushed to his or her limits and has decided they would rather die, taking a cop with them, than go to jail?
Good to know that the dangers faced by miners, test pilots, astronauts, commercial fishermen, oil rigs workers, ice road truck drivers, rally racers, volcanologists, park rangers, commercial divers, GP Motocross racers, surgeons, oceanologists, and fire and rescue personnel to name a few are both predictable and therefore preventable.
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Old January 09, 2018, 13:15   #71
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I’m not talking about assaults on beat cops anyway. This is specifically relating to a heavily armed and armored SWAT team shooting someone because he might be hiding a knife or small pistol in his pocket.

Pathetic. If they want to be seen as community advocates, they need to take that small risk at least. This might involve waiting to fire until a small self defense weapon is deployed against their armored fire team. At least wait until a weapon is seen! I’d understand if a battle rifle was seen... but even then, with the guy in your sights and safety off, he’s not gonna be able to bring a long gun to bear before getting out down. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
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Old January 10, 2018, 07:36   #72
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Yep, because today might be the day the combine decides he's had enough of your shit, he ain't gonna cut no more wheat and he'd rather go to the scrapyard than go in that field one more time... As a farmer, I can turn off the PTO on the tractor before I go clear the jam in the baler or crusher. Or not and get killed by it. As a roofer, I can rig up proper fall protection and wear the right harness to keep me safe. Or not and fall off the roof and get my dumb ass killed.

Unfortunately, while I can somewhat mitigate the risk to me on a traffic stop by choosing what offenses to stop someone for and choosing the location of the stop, I still have to walk up to that vehicle and contact the driver. That shit can go bad in a heartbeat and people die; not a lot of that happening in logging, farming or construction.

I keep saying this but the danger inherent in police work is not like other dangerous jobs where the danger is both predictable and therefore preventable. The danger in police work is the very unpredictability of the threat. Is the domestic violence call I go to tonight going to be the one where the aggressor has been pushed to his or her limits and has decided they would rather die, taking a cop with them, than go to jail?

Kinda like this: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/3...ouglas-county/
You chose your profession. You can live with the fact that us plain citizens don't always revere your costume, and in fact resent the extra protection and rights you are granted at the expense of ours.
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Old January 10, 2018, 14:46   #73
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You chose your profession. You can live with the fact that us plain citizens don't always revere your costume, and in fact resent the extra protection and rights you are granted at the expense of ours.
my point exactly
the unperdictability is part & parcel baggage you carry with that career choice.
Yeah, it sucks but it is what it always has been.
If you can't embrace it then bag groceries, whatever...
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Old January 11, 2018, 12:08   #74
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Last years Leo deaths. Note the causes.

https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2017

Vs killed by

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
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Old January 13, 2018, 17:38   #75
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Charged with involuntary manslaughter.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/13...-shooting.html
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Old January 13, 2018, 19:34   #76
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It's a start. Let me know when the cop goes to prison.
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Old January 13, 2018, 22:16   #77
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IMHO the instigator is as guilty as the officer that pulled the trigger.

Just for the record - I have no dog in this race.

It seems like Calgary PD in Canada also wants Tyler Barrass for the same offense. Give him a sentence of at least 10 years w/out parole, and in 10 years hand him over to Calgary PD, and let their legal system nail another 5 to 10 years on his sorry ass.
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Old January 13, 2018, 23:48   #78
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The reason behind twenty cops yelling and screaming all at once with confusing orders is to disorient the person so he doesn't "follow orders" and then have the opportunity to snuff the guy. Guilt or innocence doesn't even come into the equation until later.
Moron.

The purpose of this thread was nothing less than a couple Cop Block punks trying to stir up BS. There is no constructive argument here (there could be one), just social outcasts beating their predictable and boring drums on the Internet. Yawn.
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Old January 14, 2018, 10:21   #79
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Well,

lockjaw, either you are off your meds or you need to get on some. You are delusional if you think there is nothing wrong with what happened. An absolutely innocent man was killed by a nervous cop.

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Old January 14, 2018, 13:48   #80
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Well,

lockjaw, either you are off your meds or you need to get on some. You are delusional if you think there is nothing wrong with what happened. An absolutely innocent man was killed by a nervous cop.

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That’s not all of it. That is only one part of the picture.

Try to see both sides of the coin.
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Old January 14, 2018, 16:32   #81
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V guy....
Can you substantiate the 50k number? Actual, physical assaults?
Wayt too many "assaults" seem to be looking at a cop wrong, shooting pix or video or not respecting authority.... Resulting in the cop laying on hands then shouting loudly " Stop resisting" ending up with those charges as well as assault; being as defending one's self preventing a serous fall to the ground or downstairs ...... Is now assaulting an officer. (Rolleyes)
Perhaps find the numbers where cops had to receive actual treatment for injuries? Getting a boo-boo from striking a suspect or going prone from tacking a grandma going too slow don't count

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Old January 14, 2018, 17:11   #82
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Old January 14, 2018, 17:56   #83
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moonbat60,

I got it. That looking at both sides of a coin bit. I would have been charged with Murder under UCMJ if I had shot and killed an unarmed Iraqi even if he was a military age male that we had a BOLO for and was a known bad actor.

Ive been the investigating officer on a civilian driver in Baghdad Iraq that was killed. 240B MG gunner put five rds in the drivers head and chest only after he failed to stop for verbal signals by voice and megaphone, hand and arm signals and a warning shot across the front of the car. The five year old son in the passenger seat was unarmed but saw his dad turned to paste. Driver was driving on a no driving day by Government Order. The Gunner, Section Sergeant, and Platoon Leader were cleared after it was obvious the man was driving when he shouldn't have been and was UNRESPONSIVE TO ALL COMMANDS AND WARNING SHOTS.

I got it. Ive seen the other side. The cop was still wrong and I aint no f'ing Cop block punk.

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Old January 15, 2018, 07:06   #84
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That’s not all of it. That is only one part of the picture.

Try to see both sides of the coin.
Which side of the coin would you see if it was your son or brother that had been killed?
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Old January 15, 2018, 22:22   #85
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Which side of the coin would you see if it was your son or brother that had been killed?
The same. Believe it or not.
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Old January 16, 2018, 09:59   #86
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Are you making the argument that police officer is the most dangerous job in the US?



Good to know that the dangers faced by miners, test pilots, astronauts, commercial fishermen, oil rigs workers, ice road truck drivers, rally racers, volcanologists, park rangers, commercial divers, GP Motocross racers, surgeons, oceanologists, and fire and rescue personnel to name a few are both predictable and therefore preventable.

Sigh. Obviously, being a cop is not the most dangerous job in the US in terms of likelihood of being killed but the reality is that most work related deaths in the US are absolutely preventable. The risk is clearly well known, is predictable and therefore preventable. Most of the professions you mention are but a tiny fraction of the population (test pilots? Like how many of them are there in the US: 10, 20? Gotta be less than 100 tops.)

I've done really physically dangerous jobs in the past, oilfield trucking and high rise construction just to mention 2. Yes, I was in danger but I could pretty simply mitigate the threat to me by several methods such as using fall protection, ensuring others moving heavy equipment knew where I was or in the end, deciding not to fix the roof or crawl under the 20,000 pound piece of equipment to put a line on it. Predictable, preventable.

Someone calling that there is an active shooter in a local school requires an immediate response and while I can take a few seconds to toss on a heavy vest or wait for another cop, ultimately, someone has to enter that school and take on the turd. I'm not saying woe is me, wanting your pity or admiration, hell, I couldn't care less what argumentative people like many of you think because you aren't the majority and you sure as hell ain't my community. How do I know? Because I can barely buy a meal in my county without another member of my community paying for it out of the goodness of their hearts, grateful for the service we provide to them. I get thanks, prayers and handshakes wherever I go.

Sure, there are people who don't like us but they aren't the majority. Most of them are criminals.
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Old January 16, 2018, 10:29   #87
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Criminals with or without costume?

A healthy dose of resentment for government being "above" citizenry is good. When you choose to be the enforcer of said government's rules, you'd best expect some hate mail. (at least from those who value freedom over "protection")
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Old January 17, 2018, 09:07   #88
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Sigh. Obviously, being a cop is not the most dangerous job in the US in terms of likelihood of being killed but the reality is that most work related deaths in the US are absolutely preventable. The risk is clearly well known, is predictable and therefore preventable. Most of the professions you mention are but a tiny fraction of the population (test pilots? Like how many of them are there in the US: 10, 20? Gotta be less than 100 tops.)

I've done really physically dangerous jobs in the past, oilfield trucking and high rise construction just to mention 2. Yes, I was in danger but I could pretty simply mitigate the threat to me by several methods such as using fall protection, ensuring others moving heavy equipment knew where I was or in the end, deciding not to fix the roof or crawl under the 20,000 pound piece of equipment to put a line on it. Predictable, preventable.

Someone calling that there is an active shooter in a local school requires an immediate response and while I can take a few seconds to toss on a heavy vest or wait for another cop, ultimately, someone has to enter that school and take on the turd. I'm not saying woe is me, wanting your pity or admiration, hell, I couldn't care less what argumentative people like many of you think because you aren't the majority and you sure as hell ain't my community. How do I know? Because I can barely buy a meal in my county without another member of my community paying for it out of the goodness of their hearts, grateful for the service we provide to them. I get thanks, prayers and handshakes wherever I go.

Sure, there are people who don't like us but they aren't the majority. Most of them are criminals.
You mocked and derided test pilots for the small number of them (I expect your opinion on astronauts to be equally low; be glad you never had to be one trying to get life insurance). You also stated most deaths in other industries could be prevented, implying those who died are but Darwin winners. Per https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2017 as posted by badzero, the odds of an officer being killed by someone intending on causing harm to said officer (gunfires + vehicular assault + stabbed + assault) are quite low in absolute (less than shark attacks in an year) and relative (normalized) terms. Do you argue those numbers are lying? If so, please provide better source. How many of those were preventable?

Let me make my ASSumptions quite clear. Please feel free to mock and discredit them, but do so before tea-time.
  1. What makes the police officer profession different than other civilian (at least in the US police officer is still civilian last time I checked. Please correct me if I am wrong) professions is not the high risk but the fact it has to deal with humans who may want to intentionally harm or kill the officer.
  2. A Police officer works for and serves (public servant) the people. After all, we are paying for the salary. I will add they are grossly underpaid, and believe that causes a lot of problems.
  3. Because we the people give the police officer the rights and tools to (hopefully) make their beats safer to the people, I hold them to higher standards than the average population. Corollaries:
    1. They cannot protect the areas they do not cover.
    2. Like any professional, they should have the resources to train and stay current on how to better use their tools, being their brain the most important in the toolbox. For instance, maybe not practice shooting as often as the GIGN did, but enough shoot/no-shoot drills from the ground/weak hand/failures/from the car/inside a dark building that the handgun will need a new barrel in a few years. And, when all he has is nothing, how to use it well.
    3. There is a lot of opportunities for a police officer to abuse of his power. I would hope that if we could raise salaries we can get workers that have higher standards.
    4. There are things the people can do the police officer cannot because he holds a position of power. This goes back to higher standards.
    5. They will have to deal with angry or confused people. So, they must have the training to handle and defuse what can be defuse and identify when something is escalating. This goes back to the money entry above.
    6. Yes, a lot of these should be applicable to politicians but that would be a different thread.
  4. There are police officers who are very good at what they do, professional, courteous, helpful, and inspire their communities. There are those who are really bad and corrupt and use the badge for their personal gain. And there are those in the middle, the "Meh" ones who take it as a job, do what they have to do, and go home. The first and second groups are small and the last one is the largest, but that is the bell curve seen in any professions. So, arguing that all cops belong to the first or the second group is ridiculous.
  5. The quality of the police officer sometimes is related to the quality of the police department and local government. Like people tend to gather together.
  6. Respect is earned. Fear can be enforced. Ask any gang.
  7. Remember Tron. He fought for the users.
  8. Rights != Privileges.
  9. As implied before, there are opportunities for police brutality. Therefore, I will make the case police brutality has always existed. The question is how often that happens. For instance is it possible we know more about it because of modern technology documenting it?
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Old January 24, 2018, 01:22   #89
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I will say this: a lot of young guys entering departments appear to want to be "operators" instead of cops.
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Old January 24, 2018, 13:57   #90
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You mocked and derided test pilots for the small number of them (I expect your opinion on astronauts to be equally low; be glad you never had to be one trying to get life insurance). You also stated most deaths in other industries could be prevented, implying those who died are but Darwin winners. Per https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2017 as posted by badzero, the odds of an officer being killed by someone intending on causing harm to said officer (gunfires + vehicular assault + stabbed + assault) are quite low in absolute (less than shark attacks in an year) and relative (normalized) terms. Do you argue those numbers are lying? If so, please provide better source. How many of those were preventable?

Let me make my ASSumptions quite clear. Please feel free to mock and discredit them, but do so before tea-time.
  1. What makes the police officer profession different than other civilian (at least in the US police officer is still civilian last time I checked. Please correct me if I am wrong) professions is not the high risk but the fact it has to deal with humans who may want to intentionally harm or kill the officer.
  2. A Police officer works for and serves (public servant) the people. After all, we are paying for the salary. I will add they are grossly underpaid, and believe that causes a lot of problems.
  3. Because we the people give the police officer the rights and tools to (hopefully) make their beats safer to the people, I hold them to higher standards than the average population. Corollaries:
    1. They cannot protect the areas they do not cover.
    2. Like any professional, they should have the resources to train and stay current on how to better use their tools, being their brain the most important in the toolbox. For instance, maybe not practice shooting as often as the GIGN did, but enough shoot/no-shoot drills from the ground/weak hand/failures/from the car/inside a dark building that the handgun will need a new barrel in a few years. And, when all he has is nothing, how to use it well.
    3. There is a lot of opportunities for a police officer to abuse of his power. I would hope that if we could raise salaries we can get workers that have higher standards.
    4. There are things the people can do the police officer cannot because he holds a position of power. This goes back to higher standards.
    5. They will have to deal with angry or confused people. So, they must have the training to handle and defuse what can be defuse and identify when something is escalating. This goes back to the money entry above.
    6. Yes, a lot of these should be applicable to politicians but that would be a different thread.
  4. There are police officers who are very good at what they do, professional, courteous, helpful, and inspire their communities. There are those who are really bad and corrupt and use the badge for their personal gain. And there are those in the middle, the "Meh" ones who take it as a job, do what they have to do, and go home. The first and second groups are small and the last one is the largest, but that is the bell curve seen in any professions. So, arguing that all cops belong to the first or the second group is ridiculous.
  5. The quality of the police officer sometimes is related to the quality of the police department and local government. Like people tend to gather together.
  6. Respect is earned. Fear can be enforced. Ask any gang.
  7. Remember Tron. He fought for the users.
  8. Rights != Privileges.
  9. As implied before, there are opportunities for police brutality. Therefore, I will make the case police brutality has always existed. The question is how often that happens. For instance is it possible we know more about it because of modern technology documenting it?
I wasn't "mocking" test pilots; I have great respect for them and most other professions but to use them as an example of a profession where the risk they face is relatively unpredictable to contrast and compare the risks faced by peace officers was disingenuous based solely on their relatively scarcity in the workforce.

As to the rest of your post: BRAVO! I think it was well written, accurate and truthful. You may or may not have noticed I do not fit the mold lots of people wish to ascribe to many in my profession. For a start, I think confiscation of property without due process and without the victim of such confiscation being found guilty of a crime which merits confiscation should be a hanging offense for those officials engaged in it. I'm damn glad my state has pretty much outlawed it with a little bit more legislation required to close all the loopholes.

Secondly, IMHO, all drugs should be legalized, not just decriminalized. Drug abuse is a public health problem not a criminal problem. Just like with prohibition, once an addictive substance is outlawed, the criminals move in to supply the demand. Remove the prohibition, tax it lightly, regulate it and bring it out of the darkness. This would reduce much of the crime associated with illegal drug abuse (stealing to obtain the funds to buy the dope, violence between pushers and addicts, turf wars both locally and internationally and much more) thus allowing a reduction in the number of cops and/or a refocus on the true mission of peace officers.

My agency might be atypical but in the last week, some of the calls I have personally responded to included picking up a guy whose father had just had a heart attack and was in the ER. The guy had had a couple beers, judged he was unsafe to drive and had no other way to get to the ER (ya, we're in the sticks, Uber/Lfyt and taxis don't exist out here) so his elected Sheriff's Office gave the man a ride to be with his Dad. I was glad to help and proud my agency made it happen.

Same night, I'm dispatched to drive 50 miles one way to help a stranded motorist who has a flat and no jack to change the tire. Motorist has an F150 so I borrowed a jack from another deputy who has an F150 as a duty vehicle. Arrive to help the guy and its past midnight and about 15 degrees. We get the vehicle ready to lift and then he finds out he doesn't have the key to release the lock on the spare wheel mechanism. I called out the local volunteer firefighters as they have the tools to break off the lock and they did. We got the guy's tire changed and him on his way to see his kids in Albuquerque round about 2am. I was happy to help and SO glad to be part of an organization that treats people like that.

If it was my dumb ass kid at the side of the road, miles from anywhere, stuck with a flat and no jack, it would make my day to know my Sheriff's Office came to the rescue. Not all cops are like me and not all agencies are like mine either; this I know. Equally, I dislike it when cops use the word 'civilian' to describe someone who isn't a cop. I've been a soldier and there were civilians back then but today, I'm a citizen like you, I just put on a different uniform to go to work and I am given your TRUST to do the right thing, ALL the time.

I definitely agree with cops being held to a higher standard and they are, whether you believe it or not. I can be sued 6 ways from Sunday, charged and imprisoned in both Federal and state courts for decisions made in a split second. No other profession I am aware of has such dire consequences for an error of judgement in life or death situations.

I hate the phrase 'Law Enforcement Officer' with a passion and much prefer 'Peace Officer.' I think there are too damn many laws on the books and we need to get rid of about 90% of them but that also relies on getting rid of the dumb asses who can't play nice in the sandbox with the rest of us. I could go on and on but I readily agree there are many in this profession who simply shouldn't be. Being a cop isn't for everyone and I honestly think the lowest age to hire someone should be at least 26 and preferably 30 years old. You need life experience to do this job well, a huge dose of humility, compassion and empathy or you'll just be a turd. Apologies for the late and lengthy response but I've recently switched to graveyard shift so sleep and my family come before the FAL Files. Have a wonderful and blessed day.
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Old January 24, 2018, 14:09   #91
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Criminals with or without costume?

A healthy dose of resentment for government being "above" citizenry is good. When you choose to be the enforcer of said government's rules, you'd best expect some hate mail. (at least from those who value freedom over "protection")
I understand you have a particularly personal axe to grind with cops and that's fine. I personally don't agree with cops getting any kind of privilege denied to other citizens. We should all be able to carry in all states without issues; we should all be able to own machine guns; we should all be able to drive at a speed reasonable and prudent for the road and weather conditions and much more. If the rules are reasonable, limited in scope and respected by intelligent, participating citizens, then my need to enforce anything drops dramatically. It takes cooperation between us all to live with each other; when people can't get along, someone has to play referee. Not everyone likes the calls made by the referee but without him, there is anarchy. That's the bottom line, whether you like what I do for a living or not, I'm here to stand between anarchy and civilization. Have a nice day.
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Old January 24, 2018, 14:16   #92
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Old January 24, 2018, 16:40   #93
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Don't tell me what kind of day to have.
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Old January 24, 2018, 22:45   #94
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Don't tell me what kind of day to have.
Fine. GFY. I was here long before you got here and I'm betting I'll be here long after you've disappeared up your own arse.
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Old January 24, 2018, 22:46   #95
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I understand you have a particularly personal axe to grind with cops and that's fine. I personally don't agree with cops getting any kind of privilege denied to other citizens. We should all be able to carry in all states without issues; we should all be able to own machine guns; we should all be able to drive at a speed reasonable and prudent for the road and weather conditions and much more. If the rules are reasonable, limited in scope and respected by intelligent, participating citizens, then my need to enforce anything drops dramatically. It takes cooperation between us all to live with each other; when people can't get along, someone has to play referee. Not everyone likes the calls made by the referee but without him, there is anarchy. That's the bottom line, whether you like what I do for a living or not, I'm here to stand between anarchy and civilization. Have a nice day.
Seriously, you need to run for office, house, senate, president, you have my vote.
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Old January 25, 2018, 07:50   #96
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Fine. GFY. I was here long before you got here and I'm betting I'll be here long after you've disappeared up your own arse.
LOL, you probably will be. My internet endurance is no doubt lacking. I guess you didn't realize I was kidding about the "have a nice day".
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Old January 26, 2018, 10:15   #97
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Seriously, you need to run for office, house, senate, president, you have my vote.
Absolutely, hell I wish he was one state over and could help us out. That said as a cop I think gman represents the values and professionalism that we wish all law enforcement had.
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Old January 26, 2018, 10:31   #98
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Absolutely, hell I wish he was one state over and could help us out. That said as a cop I think gman represents the values and professionalism that we wish all law enforcement had.
Everyone had
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Old January 26, 2018, 23:20   #99
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Absolutely, hell I wish he was one state over and could help us out. That said as a cop I think gman represents the values and professionalism that we wish all law enforcement had.
I like what Gman says. I suspect he is a Peace Officer that would not shoot someone without a damn good reason, and I certainly can respect that.

I am not sworn, and I get to go talk to felons about their crimes on their turf with no gun, no body armour and no back up. It pays to keep your wits about you at all times. That being said, I do not investigate violent crimes.

I had a Robbery/Homicide detective tell me he would not like to do my job.....

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Old January 30, 2018, 02:33   #100
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I understand you have a particularly personal axe to grind with cops and that's fine. I personally don't agree with cops getting any kind of privilege denied to other citizens. We should all be able to carry in all states without issues; we should all be able to own machine guns; we should all be able to drive at a speed reasonable and prudent for the road and weather conditions and much more. If the rules are reasonable, limited in scope and respected by intelligent, participating citizens, then my need to enforce anything drops dramatically. It takes cooperation between us all to live with each other; when people can't get along, someone has to play referee. Not everyone likes the calls made by the referee but without him, there is anarchy. That's the bottom line, whether you like what I do for a living or not, I'm here to stand between anarchy and civilization. Have a nice day.
huh ?

So you are seriously claiming that without you looking over everyone else's shoulder we would devolve into anarchy ?
sounds like you are getting way to high on your supply G

there are still plenty of areas that are copless and there is no open lawlessness

Shit, the largest county in North Dakota has just a Sheriff and a Deputy.
Over 1200 square miles and well under a 1000 residents:

https://www.nd-direct.com/counties/slope.php

practically zero real crime

This of course area dependant, I have brought these things up before here

Thing is in many rural areas you folks never have the chance to "referee" shit
Slope County the County may not arrive for over an hour if then
Northwest Angle of Minnesota the County Cops come out of Baudette
Close to three hours distant...now what ?
they have to drive a good 40 odd miles just to hit the Canadian border then it's another two hours as most of the trip is minimum maintenence gravel to hit where folks actually live.

No anarchy either
that's made up shit G

Here's a map:



See where Baudette is located in relationship to the Angle ?
Cops have to drive through half of the next county, through Manitoba and miles of tamarack swamp road to get there.

Guys like you like to reside in your own fantasy about how you are out there saving the rest of us from ourselves but the reality is sometimes less is more.

Anarchy...
this is me laughing at you G
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