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Old December 30, 2017, 06:14   #201
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DSA_REP, in this post I will not take sides. Instead I will pretend this is a demonstration of a geometry theorem like I used to have to do in high school. So,

Hypothesis:

1. Hole in receiver is <= 0.2967" in diameter per FN specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this. This reamer costs $72 not $300.00.
2. Locking shoulders' diameter is >= 0.2970" in diameter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Aussie
Standard .2978-.0008
OS-1 .2987-.0008
UK
Standard .2970-.2978
OS-1 (Y) .2998-.2990
Thesis: If the DSA receiver locking shoulder hole is built to FN specs, placing the locking shoulder in the receiver hole is an interference fit no matter the size of the locking shoulder.

Demonstration:
The following receivers:
  1. 32238 mp
  2. 32243 gunplumber
  3. 32202 G3isMe

have locking shoulder holes whose diameter are at least >= 0.2970" in diameter (gunplumber reported his to be >= .2995"). Therefore the thesis demonstration failed.

Do you agree with these conclusions? I am not asking for an explanation or speculation from either side; we are just sticking to the theorem here.

I have a set of sizing pins but unfortunately the largest one is 0.2500" +-0.0002. Otherwise I would lend it out so we could find the exact size.
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Old December 30, 2017, 09:30   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.
This is very commendable, but no process is perfect. Here you have the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) of an enthusiast community looking over your shoulder.

There will always be elitist huff, i.e. "why aren't you using diamond, it's harder but only charge $0.50 more??" It is easy to filter through that noise, most times it it best to ignore.

BUT then there are legitimate quality control issues. Pointing out either human error or machine errors that are best caught early and corrected. Here is a major advantage of a decent sized community using their collective intelligence and dedicating their time (for FREE) to help you develop a better product. That is priceless. Often acknowledgement is all that is required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this.

[]

Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Appx .0008" increments. Meaning if a OS 3 drops in, the hole is around .0030" oversize.
As raubvogel summarized, mathematically there is an issue. As Mark and other posted, that issue is a significant operational issue. Remember, defective parts are not immune.

For when a part is >= .0030" oversized when the blueprints you posted state a tolerance of +/- .0006, that is a significant issue. It seems it would be better to investigate, identify and contain before the issue gets worse.
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Old December 30, 2017, 10:15   #203
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Quote:
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We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.
DSA REP - ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9001 helps organizations ensure their customers consistently receive high quality products and services, which in turn brings many benefits, including satisfied customers. It also provides organizations processes to measure, analyze, and improve QMS through activities like quality control, internal audits, corrective and preventive action.

DS Arms has an opportunity to prove it is an ISO 9001:2015 certified company by addressing issues with it's FAL receivers and to put in place necessary quality contols, internal audits, corrective and preventive action to ensure it's products and services meet customer expectations.

Recommend taking the time and measure locking shoulder hole on remaining Mexican marked overrun receiver and report back your findings. There are enough unsatisfied customers with issues and complaint on this thread to raise a red flag.

Recommend seizing sale of overrun Mexican marked receivers to stop the bleeding and taking the time to measure locking shoulder hole on all remaining receivers. We'd be interested in your findings.

The ball is in your court. How you handle current situation may very well affect your future ISO 9001:2015 certification for better or for worst.
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Old December 30, 2017, 12:20   #204
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Am I reading this correctly - that one can self-certify for ISO 9001:2015?

----

Certification to ISO 9001:2015

Checking that the system works is a vital part of ISO 9001:2015. It is recommended that an organization performs internal audits to check how its quality management system is working. An organization may decide to invite an independent certification body to verify that it is in conformity to the standard, but there is no requirement for this. Alternatively, it might invite its clients to audit the quality system for themselves. (iso.org)
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Old December 30, 2017, 14:22   #205
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Ok....here is my question....and this is a combination of the Dsa and Coonan threads....

Mark has shown that both receiver companies have receivers with issues....that is a fact not in doubt....

It’s appears that even tho there are issues, it seems that 90%(?) can be made to run with maybe 10% (?) unsafe and unable to be made to function....this also appears to not be in doubt....

I’m pretty sure that Mark is not the only one getting these receivers so the question is:

Where is tbd59/dr.shock/sledgehammer/Glenn riddle in all of this? Are the other smiths running into the same issues and what are they doing about it?

Not trying to stir the pot but just curious that we aren’t hearing from anyone else on this...
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Old December 30, 2017, 14:44   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embatp View Post
Ok....here is my question....and this is a combination of the Dsa and Coonan threads....

Mark has shown that both receiver companies have receivers with issues....that is a fact not in doubt....

It’s appears that even tho there are issues, it seems that 90%(?) can be made to run with maybe 10% (?) unsafe and unable to be made to function....this also appears to not be in doubt....

I’m pretty sure that Mark is not the only one getting these receivers so the question is:

Where is tbd59/dr.shock/sledgehammer/Glenn riddle in all of this? Are the other smiths running into the same issues and what are they doing about it?

Not trying to stir the pot but just curious that we aren’t hearing from anyone else on this...
Good question.
Glenn still builds guns? Haven't heard that name in a while.
Randy is having health problems and is out of action last I heard.
Matt is so far behind he probably won't touch a current made receiver for at least another year.
tbd59, haven't seen him weigh in on any of this yet but he's probably smart enough to screen his customers receivers so he doesn't have to deal with it.
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Old December 30, 2017, 14:50   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
Good question.
Glenn still builds guns? Haven't heard that name in a while.
Randy is having health problems and is out of action last I heard.
Matt is so far behind he probably won't touch a current made receiver for at least another year.
tbd59, haven't seen him weigh in on any of this yet but he's probably smart enough to screen his customers receivers so he doesn't have to deal with it.
You are very kind, Sir.

I ceased taking on new work for a while, so have not been privy to much of this.

That said, I recently saw a Coonan custom serial that took 7 months for delivery.

All looks good.......

.....except for a LS hole that measures .289........
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Old December 30, 2017, 14:52   #208
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Quote:
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You are very kind, Sir.

I ceased taking on new work for a while, so have not been privy to much of this.

That said, I recently saw a Coonan custom serial that took 7 months for delivery.

All looks good.......

.....except for a LS hole that measures .289........
And the solution is? Are you sending receivers back to the manufacturer and how has that process been going?
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Old December 30, 2017, 14:57   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embatp View Post
And the solution is? Are you sending receivers back to the manufacturer and how has that process been going?
A hole too small is much easier to fix than a hole that two big. Ream to size.
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Old December 30, 2017, 15:03   #210
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Quote:
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And the solution is? Are you sending receivers back to the manufacturer and how has that process been going?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
A hole too small is much easier to fix than a hole that two big. Ream to size.
Not my build, just a potential customer asking for a solution when it was discovered.

We will probably use an 'M' carbide reamer, then abrasive finish to final dimension.

The owner would rather not wait for Coonan to create a solution for what they missed the first time.

............
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Old December 30, 2017, 15:18   #211
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So In other words you are going to make it work....
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Old December 30, 2017, 17:42   #212
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Are both sides of the locking shoulder the same size (shank)?
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Old December 31, 2017, 12:29   #213
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I picked up two of these receivers yesterday. Locking shoulder cannot be pressed into either side of receiver using thumb pressure only.
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Old December 31, 2017, 15:16   #214
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Coming up to the finish line. Waiting on the locking shoulder. So far this thing went together without any problems. Fingers cross the. 259 LS doesn't give me any problems.

Hope I didn't blow my load of excitement too soon on this build.
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Old December 31, 2017, 15:27   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msnyder View Post
I picked up two of these receivers yesterday. Locking shoulder cannot be pressed into either side of receiver using thumb pressure only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad8e View Post
Coming up to the finish line. Waiting on the locking shoulder. So far this thing went together without any problems. Fingers cross the. 259 LS doesn't give me any problems.

Hope I didn't blow my load of excitement too soon on this build.

.
Do you guys mind sharing your serial numbers?
Thanks either way.



.
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Old December 31, 2017, 15:31   #216
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.
Do you guys mind sharing your serial numbers?
Thanks either way.



.
32163

Barrel torqued to about 130 maybe a hair more using Imbel barrel assembly from GP. Imbel lower locks up tight. Mag catch screw isn't completely flush with the receiver. Waiting on the tap to come in the mail. Magazine well is pretty tight on 2 out of the 4 magazines I own. HK cover fits snug but no rubbing from bolt.

I personally would not buy another over run receiver even if my LS goes in problem free. Seems like it's a gamble.

Last edited by brad8e; December 31, 2017 at 15:43.
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Old December 31, 2017, 16:18   #217
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.
Do you guys mind sharing your serial numbers?
Thanks either way.



.
322xx and 322xx

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Old December 31, 2017, 16:41   #218
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Thanks guys.
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Old December 31, 2017, 20:47   #219
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.
Do you guys mind sharing your serial numbers?
Thanks either way.



.
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Old January 13, 2018, 03:08   #220
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I'm about to embark on my first experience with one of these DSA 'over-run' receivers. Will be building an Imbel kit on one during Christmas week for a fellow member; will do my best to take photos and document the build. At first glance, the barrel and receiver threads seem to be a bit tight, and I didn't want to force things (I was leaving for work when I briefly handled the kit and receiver). I'm guessing it's excess phosphating in on the receiver threads, but I'll know for sure once I have a couple hours to fine-tooth-comb things...more to come. -Art
Okay, so here's a pre-build report. Turns out the receiver's barrel threads were just gunked up by phosphate build-up, which I was able to overcome by very gingerly wrenching it on while in the barrel and receiver vices (I don't have the tap to chase the threads). All other parameters were pretty well spot-on. The LS hole and dogleg appear to be in-spec; two different, un-bubba'd LS's fit (or, rather, DIDN'T fit) identically to how they did in every Imbel receiver I've built up. No issues there. The charging handle, bolt & carrier, top cover, EB group, hinge/joint pin, and lower (with standard OEM lug) all fit like a glove. A fully functioning Steyr proofed StG magazine locked in place with no real resistance, and the feed lips appear to flush-up with the receiver rails, so I would surmise it will feed like a champ. I did have to chase the gas tube nut threads, but that was also phosphate build-up...didn't take much effort. The kit being used is one Mark's Imbel kits (belongs to a fellow member who shall remain nameless until he chooses not to), who asked me to assemble into a fully functional riFAL. Lastly, the Imbel barrel did hand-time to about 9:45, so I do have to shave 0.007" from the shoulder (hence my MP request to borrow a Wadman), but fortunately will not bottom out on the breech face once that is done...have had that same issue with an Imbel barrel on an Imbel GL receiver, still unable to figure that one out. Anywho, will report further once I can reduce the shoulder and index the barrel...
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Old January 13, 2018, 08:15   #221
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Quote:
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Okay, so here's a pre-build report. Turns out the receiver's barrel threads were just gunked up by phosphate build-up, which I was able to overcome by very gingerly wrenching it on while in the barrel and receiver vices (I don't have the tap to chase the threads). All other parameters were pretty well spot-on. The LS hole and dogleg appear to be in-spec; two different, un-bubba'd LS's fit (or, rather, DIDN'T fit) identically to how they did in every Imbel receiver I've built up. No issues there. The charging handle, bolt & carrier, top cover, EB group, hinge/joint pin, and lower (with standard OEM lug) all fit like a glove. A fully functioning Steyr proofed StG magazine locked in place with no real resistance, and the feed lips appear to flush-up with the receiver rails, so I would surmise it will feed like a champ. I did have to chase the gas tube nut threads, but that was also phosphate build-up...didn't take much effort. The kit being used is one Mark's Imbel kits (belongs to a fellow member who shall remain nameless until he chooses not to), who asked me to assemble into a fully functional riFAL. Lastly, the Imbel barrel did hand-time to about 9:45, so I do have to shave 0.007" from the shoulder (hence my MP request to borrow a Wadman), but fortunately will not bottom out on the breech face once that is done...have had that same issue with an Imbel barrel on an Imbel GL receiver, still unable to figure that one out. Anywho, will report further once I can reduce the shoulder and index the barrel...
9:45? Are you saying the barrel is more than two complete revolutions backed out? Or that the big hand on the clock is pointing at the 9? Which would be 11:45, not 9:45. And in that case, at .062/360 deg=.00017. You need about 30 deg so .00017 X 30=.005.
But if you are backed out two hours that's .124 plus the .005.
I think we are looking at the clock differently.

I would advise, if you have another barrel or two that are unmodified and are not IMBEL, hand time them to see where they land. If they hand time perfectly then the issue is your barrel. However, if they hand time the same as your IMBEL barrel then the issue is the receiver. People don't seem to like it when I say it but I'd modify the receiver face in this case.
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Old January 13, 2018, 11:47   #222
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/umyYVPxLLbD6If6P2

I guess what I meant was it hand-times to where the hour-hand on the clock is pointing when it's 9:45. It also hand tightens to just about the same spot on an unused Imbel GL receiver. I have no other FAL barrels on-hand to try, though. I, too, would prefer to modify the receiver face, rather than the barrel, but I don't have access to the tooling required...
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Old January 13, 2018, 22:04   #223
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That is awesome!

I wish somebody with kits just bought up a whole bunch of these and built them for sale.
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Old January 13, 2018, 22:14   #224
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Am I reading this correctly - that one can self-certify for ISO 9001:2015?
The ISO creates the standards, but is not a certificate authority.

The ISO accredits independent Registrars, who assess compliance and grant certificates.
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Old January 13, 2018, 22:17   #225
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Thats way under thats for sure.
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Old January 14, 2018, 11:28   #226
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Wanted to update you guys on my contract over-run build. The .259 locking shoulder arrived from DSA. At first it seemed like that it wasn't possible for the locking shoulder to fit. It was way to snug. Froze the locking shoulder, applied a bit of lubricant and used a large vice. Took a bit or torque to start it through, slow and steady and a small cheater bar and it went in fine. Nicked the receiver a tad along the way but oh well, I got over it.
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Old January 14, 2018, 11:37   #227
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Wanted to update you guys on my contract over-run build. The .259 locking shoulder arrived from DSA. At first it seemed like that it wasn't possible for the locking shoulder to fit. It was way to snug. Froze the locking shoulder, applied a bit of lubricant and used a large vice. Took a bit or torque to start it through, slow and steady and a small cheater bar and it went in fine. Nicked the receiver a tad along the way but oh well, I got over it.

(((Cringing!)))
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Old January 14, 2018, 13:10   #228
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Old January 14, 2018, 13:48   #229
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(((Cringing!)))
I didn't want to have to use a vise. Punch wasn't doing it. I cleaned the area up and removed some heavy parkerizing. Once it went through the first hole it went in which minimal resistance. Didn't notice the marring from the vise on the charging handle slide until the end , doesn't interfere with function. Checked headspace once more time, it passed go/no go.

Going to get out to the range next week to work out the bugs.

Just frustrating that the whole build went together very smoothly up until the damn installation of the locking shoulder.
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Old January 15, 2018, 08:01   #230
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I didn't want to have to use a vise. Punch wasn't doing it. I cleaned the area up and removed some heavy parkerizing. Once it went through the first hole it went in which minimal resistance. Didn't notice the marring from the vise on the charging handle slide until the end , doesn't interfere with function. Checked headspace once more time, it passed go/no go.

Going to get out to the range next week to work out the bugs.

Just frustrating that the whole build went together very smoothly up until the damn installation of the locking shoulder.
Did it ever occur to you that if you needed to
FREEZE IT, LUBE IT, use a LARGE VISE, and a CHEATER BAR, with QUITE A BIT OF TORQUE, that something just might be wrong? And therefore maybe you should stop?

No. Apparently not. It sounds like you forced that shoulder in - lets hope it's the right size.
It's your stuff, and I have no interest other than a general one to the community. But I frequently see the results of uneducated enthusiasm. And the expense of not stopping and seeking guidance.
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Old January 15, 2018, 08:12   #231
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My update:

DSA issued an RMA and sent a prepaid UPS tag for my defective receiver. It went back about two weeks ago so their "master" gunsmith could inspect it. I have not heard anything back yet.

The receiver never transferred to me--I discovered the LS issue during an inspection at my FFL, so DSA is working with that FFL directly on the return and hopefully swap.
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Old January 15, 2018, 14:31   #232
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Why on earth will they not test the basic on these reciever before selling them ? good grief/
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Old January 15, 2018, 14:45   #233
1911Ron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fal fiend View Post
Why on earth will they not test the basic on these reciever before selling them ? good grief/
Because "It's the Chicago way!"
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Old January 15, 2018, 20:39   #234
brad8e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Did it ever occur to you that if you needed to
FREEZE IT, LUBE IT, use a LARGE VISE, and a CHEATER BAR, with QUITE A BIT OF TORQUE, that something just might be wrong? And therefore maybe you should stop?

No. Apparently not. It sounds like you forced that shoulder in - lets hope it's the right size.
It's your stuff, and I have no interest other than a general one to the community. But I frequently see the results of uneducated enthusiasm. And the expense of not stopping and seeking guidance.
I may not have been too clear, I never said quite a bit. I should have said a little bit. The cheater bar was used to get through the left side of the receiver its only a 10 inch pipe I used it to push the locking shoulder in slowly. At no point did I go at it like an Ape. Before I used the vise I researched how others have done it on this website. I know ideally one would use a punch and mallet but it just wasn't happening.

Believe me, if I had to put a lot muscle behind it I would have stopped and sent it back to DSA or a gunsmith such as yourself.

I'm confident that a majority of the resistance initially was parkerizing, no way possible I put enough force on the vise to alter the shape of the hole or locking shoulder piece.

I'll edit my last post to mention that I'm not a professional gunsmith and don't do what I did so you don't think I'm giving out bad advice to others if that makes you feel any better Mark.

Its my face and fingers on the line.
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