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Old December 25, 2017, 18:46   #1
Invictus77
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The wandering AR carbine chronicle

My everyday shooter AR carbine drifted off target and I am still not sure why. When I work through this type of thing I like to take notes so I don't go backwards or confuse myself when days or weeks pass between steps as they sometimes do. This is as good of a place as any to keep a log as I work this out. Any input or thoughts are appreciated:

I put this one together maybe 7-ish years ago and it has shot an estimated 5,000 rounds, possibly 7 or more? It has mostly been a "plate banger" and only actually sighted in on paper about 3 times when I've changed optics a time or two and when I added a 45 degree BUIS. On a lead sled, it could cloverleaf boolit holes at 100 yards when the current optic was mounted 4-ish years ago I think.

It consists of:
-Anderson lower.
-Delta Elite upper & barrel.
-BCG, IDK but I think came with the upper.
-RRA stock and buffer.
-Colt take-off trigger pack.
-Nikon "Precision AR Optic" P223 w/ P-series rings.

Two week ago all was normal. Consistently hitting 12" steel plates from standing at 100 yards when I did my part.

Last weekend, could not hit a plate period. Quartering around, I found it hitting about 18" high at 100 yards. I have no knowledge of it being dropped, banged, or anything that would cause a significant impact on the scope.

Last week, I checked all the mount/ring screws, one moved slightly, but was not actually "loose". I went to the range to re-sight the scope. The scope adjusted as expected with no drama or concerns. It came in to near zero at 50 yards with 6-8 shots fired over 15 minutes or so. Now time to shoot groups.

I shot three, slow, 5 round groups with about 10 minutes of cool down between groups. Consistent shooting from a lead-sled to eliminate the shooter factor as much as possible. This was still at the 50 yard range. The best of these groups was about 2.5". WTF????

The ammo I am shooting at this moment is Freedom Munitions reman 55gr FMJ. I have shot this in the past with success, but I could possibly be into a new batch.

Barrel shot out?
Scope internally unstable?
Ammo is bad?
Something else I am missing completely?

Today I removed the rings and scope, then remounted them again from ground zero. I am on vacation this week and can hopefully play with it and see what we get.

My plan for the nest step:
Re-sight the scope with the Freedom ammo and shoot for groups.
If not successful, try different ammo (I have several brands in stock to try).
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Old December 25, 2017, 19:03   #2
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1. freedom munitions is bulk loaded ammo, and much the same as wolf and tula in my opinion. I would change the ammo first before doing anything else.

If you dont' use the same ammo all the time, don't expect your zero to be the same all the time.
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Old December 25, 2017, 20:22   #3
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Check barrel nut for tightness.
Chuck FM ammo in nearest lake.

That stuff blows guns up on a regular basis.
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Old December 25, 2017, 20:26   #4
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I'd not do a darn thing other than what ya have already done, except go back out to the range and shoot it again with exact same ammo.

Eliminate yourself first from the issue, sounds like just a bad range day, happens.
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Old December 25, 2017, 20:51   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider View Post
Check barrel nut for tightness.
Chuck FM ammo in nearest lake.
This.
And try different ammo. Maybe a couple. If nut is tight and different ammos won't group rebarrel it.
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Old December 25, 2017, 21:02   #6
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When I get a rifle that changes.....larger groups/not grouping, the first thing I do is clean it......get the copper out......then shoot it a bit to settle things in and it usually results in shooting well again. Don't forget to ck the muzzle for buildup.

If the group wonders.....of course check everything....barrel nut to scope base for anything not tight...like the guys before me have posted.

I had one barrel (remington 700 mountain profile in .308) that lost its group and I could not get it back.....so I replaced the barrel and now it drives tacks!

Good Luck!
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Old December 25, 2017, 22:33   #7
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Have had poor luck with Nikon scopes. Own over $15,000 in Nikon camera lenses from 1960's vintage non AI to late 70's and 80's AI, late 80's through 90's original auto focus. Now have first through latest model vibration reduction lenses with multiple gyroscopes that stabilize well enough to shoot clear images off skid of a helicopter or deck of boat in high seas or moving objects like race cars and airplanes crisp as a person could want. Have dropped them in the ocean while open water kyaking, off tall boulders rock climbing, banged them to crap mountaineering at 6,000 meters and proved tough as nails. My 50+ year old manual film camera bodies and first generation digital camera bodies still function like new no matter how bad they look. My clearest lens is 40+ year old 80mm portrait lens.

When Nikon came out with scopes immediately jumped on the bandwagon with excitement. Most likely have number of official generations mistaken but base interpretation of "generations" off each time they announce new models with significant improvements over previous. First two Gen 1 lenses didn't last through what I call initial test phase. One started wandering in first 100 rounds and reticle shook loose in second at about 400 rounds.

Nikon warrantied them and sold the replacements immediately. When the (improved models) Gen 2's came out tried again with same results at about twice the round count. Skipped the third generation and tried the fourth generation. Bought two and they lasted about six to eight months, started wandering, sent for warranty and sold the replacements when came in. Skipped the fifth and sixth improved models hoping Nikon would work through all the issues with engineering and building scopes.

Finally started seeing a lot less returns, even on magnum rifles, they announced dangerous game scopes and reading more positive reviews and decided to try them again. What I did notice was like some other manufacturers their higher dollar lines seemed to have a lot less reported issues so purchased a low mid price and higher mid price scope in their line to try ($250 to $450).

Now have a pair of what I call Gen 7 Nikons that thus far are holding up. Have a 2.5-10x Monarch on a 18" 6.8 spc II and a 4-16x X1000 Tactical on a 22 Nosler. Both got run a few hundred rounds on full size 308 battle rifles to test durability before moved to poodle shooters but not been shot enough for me to say for sure what they are going to do. I like both but if your rifle is wandering and groups opening would definaately try a different scope before make any changes to the rifle. I keep a Leupold VX II 4-12x 40mm AO specifically for breaking in rifles, testing to see if an issue is with the scope or rifle, placeholder till scope on order arrives, etc. Everyone should keep one dependable scope laying around to use for verifying issues.

I install all my mounts and rings using proper torque wrench at proper torque settings recommended by manufacturer or book rating for size of fastener. Always buy Burris or Leupold mounts/rings as entry level or inexpensive versions and must have minimum four screws per ring. Lap rings once all is mounted on rifle so sure fit will be right and then once torque the screws except to verify screws have not stretched by verifying torque know scope is not loose.

First sign of wandering zero verify torque, occasionally will be low but almost every single instance of an average rifle opening up or wandering is in the scope. Only exception are overbore cartridges where know what round count throat is going to go when build it. Have rifles that know will burn throats at 700 rounds, some at 1,000 and others that should last 10,000 and even 20,000 rounds before barrel shows wear. Hope these new Nikons have don't go the way of all my others. Purchased seven new that all died on me and none went on rifles larger than 308, most on AR's. Gotten three in trades that came unglued so ten failures and zero that held up. The two using now have most use of any and are on fairly violent rifles for AR's. If both hold up to 1,000 rounds will feel confident enough to try another.

For now Leupold, Vortex and Burris are my most used scopes. When find deal on nice German and nice quality factory or custom made U.S.A. made scope scoop it up. Usually used/demo/salesman samples on those. It's odd, expected when Burris went offshore and started selling inexpensive scopes they would begin having problems. Purchased several of their $279 4.5-14x scopes and all are holding up, even on some heavy hitting rifles. Unfortunately anytime someone mentions issues and Nikon scope in same post I suspect scope first and that's based on giving them an honest try. Still believe in their optics as added a VR zoom camera lens for more than what a nice rifle, scope and ammo cost.
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Old December 26, 2017, 10:26   #8
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Well I would try a known ammo, like something that is match grade. I really like Black Hills ammo always get good results with it.

Also is the stock adjustable? If so not having it in the same location will effect eye relief and cheek weld. I have seen that inconsistency in cheek weld will cause inconsistencies in shot placement. Back when I was running a range at an US army base, I used to tell the guys to put the tip of their nose on the charging handle so that they could have the same reference point all the time. Those that did this I rarely had issues with them but those that didnít it was frustrating to say the least.

Could your barrel be shot out? Maybe but the 223/5.56 isnít known as a barrel burner so even after 7k I wouldnít expect that it would open up as much as your seeing. Going from clover leaf (1/2 inch) groups at 100 yards to 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards or approximately 5 inch groups at 100 yards. That seems like a lot to me. To me this says ammo issue. If we were talking like a 220 swift, 300 RUM or any of the Weatherby mags, I would say your barrel is shoot out.

I do agree that a good cleaning of the muzzle is in order too. If there s build up on the muzzle it will act just as if there is a big ding in the muzzle. Also make sure the break or flash hider you are using gets a good cleaning too.

Now for what I see as the obvious. Your POI shifted significantly! If It is shooting 18 inches high and you have no knowledge of any drops or impacts to the scope and if the scope is/ was tight. Something in side the scope could have let go, but I would expect to see an inconsistent or shifting POI if that were to happen. Much like if you to shoot with a loose scope mount.

So to recap (and not necessarily in this order):
1) try quality ammo
2) try a different scope
3) clean the gun especially the muzzle
4) make sure everything is tight
5) make sure your cheek weld is the same.

Good luck.
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Old December 26, 2017, 11:50   #9
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Just caught the remanufactured ammo comment. Try some good ammo as commercial reloaders can use cannister powders purchased based on price and make changes in quality from lot to lot. I will concur with Black Hills. Try 55, 62 to 69 weights. What is rate of twist on barrel? 1:7 go heavier, 1:8/1:9 mid weight and slower than 1:9 55 grain or lighter. Black Hills has a stunning 50 grain round for slow twist barrels.
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Old December 26, 2017, 13:41   #10
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Try it again, but it sounds like the scope went south.
Personally, ive had rotten luck with nikon rifle scopes myself...If yours went 7yrs, you got about 5yrs more than ive gotten from any of the 3 Ive had.

Have an extra know good scope to swap out and test ?
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Old December 26, 2017, 14:00   #11
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1. Use quality ammo, and shoot for group.

2. Remove muzzle device, and shoot for group.

3. If groups are round ( as opposed to vertical or horizontal ), it is probably not a scope issue.



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Old December 26, 2017, 14:19   #12
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Set up a target at 25 and shoot irons in the sled
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Old December 26, 2017, 14:33   #13
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I doubt that the barrel is "shot out." Barrels don't just go bad over night. We all know this.

Ditch the 45 degree sights.

Take off the scope.

Install a set of quality BUIS.

Zero the rifle using BUIS (I typically start with a USGI zero target to get on paper, then move to 100 yards for final zero) using quality 62 grain green tip (PMC X-TAC is my favorite as it is new production, clean and has proved most consistant over the years). USGI is my preferred "baseline" type ammo (other's mileage will vary). If you consistantly print respectable (1 to 3 inch if you are a decent shooter) 10 round groups at 100 yards, you can rule the rifle out as the culprit.

*One of favorite high power scopes is a Nikon 2.5-10X44 Monarch X (nice no BS balance between weight and performance), and Nikon Prostaff optics are my optic of choice for all my rimfire rifles. I don't have any experience with 40+ year old Nikon camera lenses.
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Old December 26, 2017, 16:08   #14
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Thanks for all the input gents. Here is UPDATE #1:

-I did check and the barrel nut it tight.

-The rifle is clean. I don't clean it after every outing, but after every 2 or 3 outings, so roughly every couple hundred rounds or so. It is right now clean-clean!

-Someone above commented "the barrel did not go bad overnight". Absolutely correct and I did not mean to imply that if it came across that way. "Something" however happened overnight that made it shoot high which I can only guess was a scope SNAFU of some sort. When I tried to sight it back in, I noticed the larger groups. Prior to that, I was mostly shooting it at plates and have no idea how it has actually grouped on paper of late.

-I have generally had good luck with Nikon scopes, but I have also never subjected one to the quantity of rounds this one has seen. The "shooting fine" one day and "shooting high" the next time makes me really suspect the scope as the issue. My consternation with that idea is most of the time I have had a "bad" scope, they did not come back into zero with predictable results while adjusting a new set-up, but meandered throughout the sight-in process with inconsistent repeatability in adjustment. That did not happen with this one, but I am working with a fairly small set of personal historical data too.

-Ammo? Yes I will certainly try several options when I can.

The wife unit is taking grandkids to Nashville the next couple days for their annual shopping/stay-in-a-hotel/eat-a-fancy-dinner/Christmas outing. Weather permitting, I will have more to report in a day or two.

Thanks again for all the input. I love this place
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Old December 26, 2017, 17:17   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
-I have generally had good luck with Nikon scopes, but I have also never subjected one to the quantity of rounds this one has seen. The "shooting fine" one day and "shooting high" the next time makes me really suspect the scope as the issue. My consternation with that idea is most of the time I have had a "bad" scope, they did not come back into zero with predictable results while adjusting a new set-up, but meandered throughout the sight-in process with inconsistent repeatability in adjustment. That did not happen with this one, but I am working with a fairly small set of personal historical data too.
Try the box test with the scope,

From a good rest, take a shot
Adjust the Point Of Impact 3" up
take a shot
adjust the POI 3" right
take a shot
adjust the POI 3" down
take a shot
adjust the POI 3" left
take a shot

(Note..this is not a drinking game!)

If you shoot a decent 3" box the scope is probably mechanically good to go....

YMMV
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Old December 26, 2017, 17:53   #16
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Its the scope Jim.
If your zero on a scope-sighted rifle suddenly went many MOA off, the problem is with the scope, or the scope mount.

Did you fuckwith it?
Assuming you didn't fuckwith the knobs on the scope since the last shoot.

I don't trust you.
Just because you are "sure" you didn't fuckwith the knobs, does NOT mean you didn't do it. The biggest dumbasses, and the biggest liars, are the ones who truly believe the stories they tell.

Do it over.
Remove the scope and mount.
Reinstall the scope and mount.
Re-zero the scope.

Destroy the evidence.
If the scope loses zero again, smash the scope with a hammer, and get a better scope.

It happens to the best of them.
Even really expensive scopes (Nightforce and March) have instances where they do not operate properly or reliably. But, that sort of fuckery happens markedly less frequently with scopes that cost more than the rifle.

Set it and forget it.
Some really cheap and shitty scopes WILL HOLD ZERO if you "set-it-and-forget-it."
Its when you start cranking knobs, that you get in the most trouble with cheap scopes.
Cheap scopes will fail the "box test." That doesn't mean the cheap scope is unsuitable for the application. I haven't ever seen a competition for who can produce the best box-group. Moreover, that a scope "passes" the box test one time, doesn't mean it will pass the test the next time, or the next time. I think the "box test" is way overrated, and is over-prescribed on internent gun forums. Most shooters cannot HOLD a rifle hard enough to execute a box test that tells the shooter anything truly valuable.

What Leupold says.
Leupold recommends running the adjustment knobs on all their scopes full range (which tends to be 5-7 revolutions lock-to-lock) several cycles when the scope is brand new.

Cheaters win.
Most scopes that have tracking issues will show those tracking flaws more often when the weather is cold. If I'm going to be playing with the knobs at the range in cold weather, I use a couple dry-chemical air-activated heaters, and jerry-rig them around the scope turrets to try to keep the adjustment mechanism at least some warmer than the frigid ambient conditions. This would be called "cheating," and I highly recommend cheating at every opportunity while managing adverse conditions.

Shitty ammo.
Even the shittiest 5.56 ammo is good enough for ringing steel at 100 yards.
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Old December 26, 2017, 19:27   #17
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^^^^^^^^Well said sir.^^^^^^^^^^

I don't trust Nikon scopes, probably never will. Especially any under $400 to $500. The two running now are on varmint rifle and a play toy where it won't be a big deal when they go loopy. I expect them to crap out and first sign of rifles losing zero wont even try to trouble shoot, the Nikons will go in trash and based on deal of the day and condition of rifles a new optic will find its way on top. Sometimes I think Nikon builds them with a limited lifespan on purpose.

If a scope sits for years without knob being turned then suddenly gets pulled out, major adjustment made any of them can freak out. Either keep it still and on one setting or keep it moving with regular adjustments. Don't know how many people have heard say, "it was fine on the other rifle, held its zero for a decade. Moved it to new rifle, installed it properly, zeroed for the new gun but now it wanders."

I have scopes sighted in to a load and enough of their load stockpiled that may need one or two clicks every few years due to minor change in weather or such. Try to leave them static as possible. Have others paint on turrets is wearing off from dialing up different shots so often. Keep moving and see how it feels when you move. Go home, sit in your recliner for a month and see how hard it is to get body to work properly. My scopes get left alone or twisted regularly. They like consistency.
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Old December 27, 2017, 05:22   #18
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I personally do not bite on every manufacturer naysayer that pops up on an internet forum. Kinda' like Ford vs/ Chevy… especially when the person slams an established manufacturer for a product that was manufactured 20-50 years ago.

As noted by W.E.G., high quality optics can go tits up. A smart optics buy is one that involves a manufacturer who backs their product with a no BS warranty (which is tangle in the US with a quick turn around). I know my preferences, but it avoid a manufacturer pecker measuring contest which will flush this thread into the toilet, that is a discussion for another time.

Personally, if an established AR15 build goes sideways, for whatever reason, I take it back to ground zero…. I want to eliminate the rifle as the culprit. Plus, I enjoy zeroing an AR in the process highlighted below, especially if I haven't been to the range in a while. It helps me tighten my shooting fundamentals before chucking expensive ammo 100's of yards down range.

I remove the optic. I physically inspect the weapon system. I reconfirm zero with iron sights out to 100 yards, starting with a 25 meter USGI zero target at (three round groups until center mass achieved). I move that same target out to 50 meters/yards, and do the same. Past 50 meters/yards, I zero at 100 yards (obviously not with a USGI zero target!).

…. out of curiosity, did you check your muzzle device to see if it is loose, damaged, or any of the holes/ports (whatever) are obstructed?
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Old December 27, 2017, 07:03   #19
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When a scope is built, any internal moving parts are lubed with a small dab of grease.
Even with everything else being perfect, this grease can and does cause issues as it migrates around and/or stiffenes up over time and temp changes.
Running all adjustments through their full range of travel should be something thats done to any new scope before use. It can also sometimes correct older scopes that are having these type ssues already.

That said, I've still had shitty luck with 3 nikon rifle scopes...
Doing nothing but switching any of them out with a Luppy has repeatedly shown to cut group size damn near in half,,,even after a warranty 'repair'...
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Old December 27, 2017, 07:08   #20
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If it makes you feel better, I had a Cabelas scope in my FAL. Every time I took it to the range it was off; last time 4mo down and 3 to the right of my point of aim. So I had to spend rounds and bring it back in. And then I could do my usual grouping (pictures of that somewhere in the forum). And then I would take home, not take scope from rifle. And then I would next time I went to the range it started all over again.

I never ha this problem with my $24 4x32 scope.

You know, maybe it was the mount. But when I took the scope back to Cabelas they gave me the runaround -- Literally as I kept being sent to another department after waiting in line for 20 minutes -- for so long I returned it. I have Vortex now and will put it in the same scope mount to see if problem follows mount or scope.
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Old December 27, 2017, 09:12   #21
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Regardless of manufacturer, I recommend staying away from optics built in locations such as Malaysia or China, the origin of most low end optics, regardless of manufacturer/distributor.
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Old December 27, 2017, 10:30   #22
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For decades my rule was scope needed to cost 1/2 to 1.5 times cost of rifle. Past few years have been building so many AR 15's, FAL's, 10/22's and AR 10's have had to experiment with lower price scopes. What I have personally discovered is there is still a $300 rule, scopes that retail under that price point will let you down. Doesn't mean you can't find a $300 to $350 retail scope on sale in the $249 range that will work. (Burris)

Most of my Burris scopes are from when they were 100% U.S. made with lifetime warranty and ranked with Leupolds. When they chose to introduce an offshore line it wound my watch. But some picking and choosing am finding some darn decent scopes in their offshore line based on their years of being a quality scope company. Nikon is just slapping their name on Chinese junk with no idea how to engineer the internal components.

Vortex has changed my life. Have at least ten of the 1-6x Strike Eagles and all have acted perfectly. The 6.5-20x Vipers find around $400 on clearance or special are doing well, own four of them. The 6-24x Vipers are also doing well at $600 or slightly under are holding up on some hard recoiling rifles. Send a good many Crossfires out the door at LGS but at $199 to $279 I have not slummed that low due to trust issues with cheap scopes. Have one Viper PST II 1-6x that came used in a trade that is one of the crispest scopes have ever used in a wide range optic but is a $1,000 scope. Also Vortex is one of few manufacturers that have lifetime warranty on all electronics and optics. Yet to see a return that was not user induced.

Till recently most of my 10/22's had Leupold 4-12x or 6-18x scopes based on if used for killing varmints or punching paper. Found a super deal on some Burris 4.5-14x 42mm AO scopes and ordered two. Now all but my nicest rimfire rifles have the $229 (Midway Clearance) Burris scopes on top (as do a few AR's) and moved my Leupolds over to other builds. Have a Walmart 10/22 at work I bought used with a Walmart 4x Simmons. Using Aguilla subsonics the darn thing kills every squirrel have ever squeezed trigger on and shoots so well from bench at 25 yards have seen no need to do anything to it yet. Has an odd yellow tint to lenses and the little rifle works, guess it's a $49 scope on a $199 rifle.

I really want Nikon scopes to work for me and will keep trying. The two most recent are doing better than any to date. Both are $400 plus range, latest generation and hoping they hold together. If do will risk spending for their more expensive options. I see a lot of the newer generation $149 to $239 P 223 scopes come in as total failures. So many that they are seldom stocked and sell the cheaper Vortex's in their place due to wasted employee time handling warranty of a under $200 optic. I think Nikons biggest problem is their attempt to sell so many under $200 retail scopes.

People see a name renown in optics, $149 price tag and assume they are getting something made to same standard as a $3,000 Nikon camera lens. Just cruised a major retail site to find over 15 models of Nikon scopes under $200 retail, many with mounts/rings at under $200. Then was another dozen under $250. Make cheap scopes in China and will get a reputation for cheap junk. Like their camera lenses, can buy chinese (cheap and suck) or Japanese (expensive and good) but even their cheap camera lenses work acceptable in non abusive environments.

That said had two items on my Christmas list gave to Santa both were Nikon camera lenses. Wife flipped when saw the $11,000 price on a 400mm f2.8 VR non zoom lens so opted for the $1,100 70-200mm f2.8 VR and told me could keep using my 80-400 f4.5 or old manual 400mm f2.8 non VR. Yes, I would drop more on a piece of Nikon glass than a Barrett 50 BMG costs. Not a Nikon hater, cannot count the number of film and digital camera bodies or lenses in camera vault and bags.

Hate they choose to make sh!t scopes. If their rifle glass was good would have it on more rifles than all other brands by now. It actually makes me mad that they entered the scope market with junk. Even their Walmart DSLR's with kit lenses are decent for price range and all that level consumer needs, some of their lowest line camera lenses have become sought out by professionals and now sell used for 5x what cost new when released for a season at Walmart. They can make inexpensive optics that work but seems like they purposely fubar their scopes.
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Old December 28, 2017, 14:53   #23
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Sooooo...... what was this thread about again?

Invictus77, did you diagnose your wandering zero?



.....

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Old December 28, 2017, 19:22   #24
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Sooooo...... what was this thread about again?

Invictus77, did you diagnose your wandering zero?



.....
Something along these lines, and they are very nice lines, makes my zero wander all the time.
Could be tha answer??????

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Old December 28, 2017, 22:21   #25
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Something along these lines, and they are very nice lines, makes my zero wander all the time.
Could be tha answer??????

Ha ha... so if the lines have wandered with age (considering the vintage of the photo), what would the effect be on your wondering zero?
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Old December 28, 2017, 23:07   #26
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Ha ha... so if the lines have wandered with age (considering the vintage of the photo), what would the effect be on your wondering zero?
As I've grown older, my eyes have grown older, and she looks exactly the same to me today!

Even in her 80's, if she walked, or should I say floated into a room full of FF people, all present would have a severe case of the wondering zero!

Of course in large part, to our spouses knocking us up side our knot heads!

Vic, ya ever fix that gun yet????
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Old December 29, 2017, 07:11   #27
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If it shot the same ammo okay before,but not now,and you didn't ding the muzzle,then the scope is the first place I'd look. Nikon scopes don't excite me.Have a pair of Nikon binocs. Meh. Okay,but not Steiners.
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Old December 29, 2017, 18:23   #28
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As I've grown older, my eyes have grown older.....

..... ya ever fix that gun yet????
On the first part, my eyes are older too, which is why I like scopes with cross hairs and some level of magnification. What are your "older folks" thoughts on EOtech optics with no magnification?


On the second part, NO. I do really suspect it is a scope issue, but spare time & good weather have not crossed paths yet. I thought it might do so today, but UK played today
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Old December 29, 2017, 21:49   #29
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On the first part, my eyes are older too, which is why I like scopes with cross hairs and some level of magnification. What are your "older folks" thoughts on EOtech optics with no magnification?


On the second part, NO. I do really suspect it is a scope issue, but spare time & good weather have not crossed paths yet. I thought it might do so today, but UK played today

I don't own an EOtech anything, but do have a few of these on my actual "working rifles" and they work great, rock solid, real brutes for taking punishment, and very well field tested in harsh real world environments.

They say ya can leave the things on for three years, I don't, but have friends that do, and they all tell me they get near on five years or more on a set of batteries.

The controls are also human sized and old age eyes capable, simple and big enough to see and turn on or adjust.

Only draw back, ain't cheap!

https://www.opticsplanet.com/aimpoin...cope-30mm.html
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Old December 29, 2017, 23:17   #30
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I'm an Aimpint fan myself. There are surplus Aimpoints all over the civilian market for excellent prices (CompM4 for around $450-500, M2s for under $300). They are bombproof and battery life is exceptional. I tried to warm up to the micros on a couple occasions, but ended selling them.

I like the sight picture of Eotechs, but I personally had one go tits up while deployed. Our supply had multiple failed Eotechs on their books by the end of tour. The Aimpoints were significantly more durable. Turns out that Eotech knew of a design flaw, but still pumped them out to Uncle Sam and civilian market anyway. The new models are interesting, but I cannot look past my personal experience.

Regardless of your choice, Holographic sights are awesome. If you haven't tried one, you are missing out!
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Old December 29, 2017, 23:44   #31
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I'm an Aimpint fan myself. There are surplus Aimpoints all over the civilian market for excellent prices (CompM4 for around $450-500, M2s for under $300). They are bombproof and battery life is exceptional. I tried to warm up to the micros on a couple occasions, but ended selling them.

I like the sight picture of Eotechs, but I personally had one go tits up while deployed. Our supply had multiple failed Eotechs on their books by the end of tour. The Aimpoints were significantly more durable. Turns out that Eotech knew of a design flaw, but still pumped them out to Uncle Sam and civilian market anyway. The new models are interesting, but I cannot look past my personal experience.

Regardless of your choice, Holographic sights are awesome. If you haven't tried one, you are missing out!
My son, tha Marine used these aimpoints on 4 tours and swore by them, he actually got me my first one and after that I was sold.
Just a good solid piece of gear.

I asked him to set this thing up, his response, just stick the red dot on top of the front sight, all done.
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Old December 30, 2017, 01:59   #32
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Another vote for the scope being the issue. Bad luck with Nikon here as well.
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Old December 30, 2017, 10:23   #33
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I'm an Aimpint fan myself. (Trim)

I like the sight picture of Eotechs, but I personally had one go tits up while deployed. Our supply had multiple failed Eotechs on their books by the end of tour. The Aimpoints were significantly more durable. Turns out that Eotech knew of a design flaw, but still pumped them out to Uncle Sam and civilian market anyway. The new models are interesting, but I cannot look past my personal experience.

Regardless of your choice, Holographic sights are awesome. If you haven't tried one, you are missing out!
I use neither but the members of SEAL Team Six that took out Osama Bin Laden chose Eotechs. Last view of the SOS alive was through the reticle of an Eotech. If I were going into harms way an optic that quit when the battery went dead would not be my choice and both suffer from same fault.

Et all:
My absolute distrust of Nikon scopes and purchased three Nikon PROSTAFF RIMFIRE II 3-9x 40mm BDC's yesterday. While in process of finishing most recent 10/22 builds/upgrades realized had enough OEM barrels, stocks and fire control components, etc to build almost half dozen 10/22's minus receivers. Found a few people that switched from Ruger to aftermarket receivers on evolving builds and now have parts to massage three 10/22's back to life. Have the barrels off being cut and crowned for maximum rigidity plus the spring kits and critical small inexpensive parts like aftermarket extractors. Plan to build some plinkers that should shoot better than did from factory but not be true customs in any sense of the word. Was offered the Nikon rimfire scopes for $75 each and trying to save up for two nice pieces of glass so needed to cheap out on these. If they die will smash with rock and add them to the failure count.
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Old December 30, 2017, 11:01   #34
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Eotechs are like mounting a brick on your rifle. FWIW
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Old December 30, 2017, 15:03   #35
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I use neither but the members of SEAL Team Six that took out Osama Bin Laden chose Eotechs. Last view of the SOS alive was through the reticle of an Eotech. If I were going into harms way an optic that quit when the battery went dead would not be my choice and both suffer from same fault.

Et all:
My absolute distrust of Nikon scopes and purchased three Nikon PROSTAFF RIMFIRE II 3-9x 40mm BDC's yesterday. While in process of finishing most recent 10/22 builds/upgrades realized had enough OEM barrels, stocks and fire control components, etc to build almost half dozen 10/22's minus receivers. Found a few people that switched from Ruger to aftermarket receivers on evolving builds and now have parts to massage three 10/22's back to life. Have the barrels off being cut and crowned for maximum rigidity plus the spring kits and critical small inexpensive parts like aftermarket extractors. Plan to build some plinkers that should shoot better than did from factory but not be true customs in any sense of the word. Was offered the Nikon rimfire scopes for $75 each and trying to save up for two nice pieces of glass so needed to cheap out on these. If they die will smash with rock and add them to the failure count.
Ha ha.... you give an opinion based upon zero tangible experience, other than "SEAL Team Six used them." You ignorance and logic is on par with that of a 17 year old internet commando. I could explain the gap in your logic based upon tangible experience, but something tells me that you will not read a single word, but retort with a longer winded post on how you plan to restore 10/22 rifles, and how you bought Nikon rimfire optics, even though you have nothing but disdain for them.... wait a minute, that already happened.

The battery comment exhibits your ignorance as well. First, the battery life in these optics is often multiple YEARS. But, if a soldier worth his/her salt goes into harms way (and/or an NCO that puts a boot in his/her soldiers' asses), there is a little thing that is called "preventative maintenance," which typically involve routinely replaced batteries (whether the optics need it or not)... and keeping spare batteries on hand.

In addition, any optic can fail, especially in combat and/or heavy use. That is why we have back up iron sights.

....

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Old December 30, 2017, 15:04   #36
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My favorite red dot optic. Aluminum chassis C More with tritium front post in irons that cowitness on the money. Just swap module if need different dot size.



Following the C More about any red dot that will cowitness with my irons. Vortex on SBR near top of my list due to durability, features and lifetime warranty. Have at least ten of the Burris XTS-135's that have all taken years of beating with no issues.



Otherwise any glass with beater red dot for use as back up or CQB optic if scope doesn't give enough field of view for close up quick work is good. Personally I prefer scope with red dot on anything with an accurate barrel or 16" and longer. Red Dot primary optics are for CQB rifles or "do all" rifles with short barrels and mostly used in the 25 to 150 yard range with occasional shots out to 250 yards. Past 250 and unless really work hour rifle regularly a 1x dot is a lob and pray till hit bad guy. For those that say can ring the gong out x or y distance, is that gong and his buddies running around and shooting back? I prefer my irons over a dot past 150 yards.







And finally a Nikon scope to pull this on topic. 18" ARP 5R barrel in 6.8 spc II and have hits on ground hogs and coyote out past 250 yards often enough not flukes. Longest now is a coyote at 311 yards using 90 grain Speer TNT's with H322. It's the Prostaff 7 2.5-10x 42mm.



This is the reticle which is very easy to use and dope longer shots without dialing them up using the target turrets.

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Old January 12, 2018, 14:11   #37
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Update #2

I did shoot it again last weekend and am doubly convinced it is the scope. After re-mounting the scope and running the adjustments back & forth a few times, I was still getting better groups from the 45 degree BUIS than from the Nikon at 50 yards. Same batch of Freedom ammo.

On the Eotech, I shot one on a friend's AR last weekend as well. I actually knew this before, but confirmed again that I don't like them.

The Nikon has now been mailed back to the factory for repair under warranty.

I picked up a "Leupold Mark AR Mod-1 1.5-4x 20mm in like new condition" here in the MP which is now mounted but not shot yet due to weather & work.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422530

In discussing this with a local friend, he had a stray ACOG that was not mounted and he loaned it to me to try out. The only one I recall really looking through on a rifle is NUTTZ's, but I think I liked it. Did not actually shoot with it though...

Now waiting on free time, decent weather, and being in the same state/continent as the AR for a range day.....
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Old January 12, 2018, 14:34   #38
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Hope it is the scope. I don't have many Nikon scopes that get regular use, but my Weavers (made by same company that make Nikon scopes) have been great.

And barrels DO go bad overnight. Anything over 5000 rounds should be suspect. They may still shoot well at short distance, but out at 600 they cannot hit the broadside of a barn.
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Old January 12, 2018, 16:56   #39
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Hope it is the scope. I don't have many Nikon scopes that get regular use, but my Weavers (made by same company that make Nikon scopes) have been great.

And barrels DO go bad overnight. Anything over 5000 rounds should be suspect. They may still shoot well at short distance, but out at 600 they cannot hit the broadside of a barn.
According to barrel. A 1:8 twist 4150 cold hammer forged 5.56 barrel with deep salt bath dip/melonite will go 20,000 abusive rounds and still pass specs. A 1:7 twist button rifled stainless will die much sooner but a well made unit shojld still hold up more than 5,000 rounds if use good ammo, aka lead core copper jacketed bullets in brass cases.

My most proven, most likely to choose if had to go out into zombie land AR 15 has a 1:8 twist stainless SPR barrel with over 5,000 rounds and still shoots 3/4 MOA with Leupold 2-7x. Might do better if slapped higher magnifiction on it as eyes are aging. Run bimetal jacket, steel case ammo through same barrel and it would have likely died before 5,000 rounds. I assume any well made modern 5.56 barrel, always using good quality ammo will go 10,000 rounds before see unusable accuracy drop.

I assume any Nikon scope will die long before barrel it's mounted over shows any significant wear if good ammo is used. This comes from launching a lot of rounds, inspecting a lot of bores and breaking lots of Nikon scopes. I am really hoping the two new ones running last longer but when drop into the under $200 price range on optics I would expect most any brand to fail with extended or abusive use. Cheap glass doesn't hold up except a $49 Simmons 4x got used a decade ago. Exceptions on cheap scopes thus far are some chinese Burris which i have a few. With the Vortex Crossfire series have seen people abuse the crap out of them though not using any myself yet but considering trying them just to see if can find a sub $200 scope that lasts longer than it takes me to loose the receipt.

I would wager OP's issues will be cleared up with his clean used Leupold.
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Old January 12, 2018, 17:16   #40
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I have several Nikon scopes and have had no problems so far. Worst scope I've had was a Leupold and even after they fixed it I didn't like it, other Leupolds I had were OK. The Vortex Crossfire is made in China and many have reported problems with them but they do have a great warranty.
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Old January 12, 2018, 18:04   #41
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Eotechs are like mounting a brick on your rifle. FWIW
While I got out of the system before the M4orgery became queen , I have shot a handful of AR's with Eotech's ... don't much care for them. I'm not so worried about the "extra" weight , but man relying on a battery just isn't in my things must do list. I've several 'surplus' 4X32 Acog's and love them. First one I got was the 'donut of death reticle'. OK , but seemed to lack precision POA for me. The two chevron reticle Acogs...well now I really like those buggers !. One of the electricians I manage served in Iraq 04 and then again in 05. They used those tiny 22 cal diameter glow sticks taped to the fiber optic in low light conditions with super results. They had those little glow sticks when I was in...I remember often using blanks to launch them at night.
On another note a buddy with an eotech broke his battery door lever and the only way to get it fixed is to send it back to the factory or make your own lever and re- pin it to the post. Anyhow that's my two pfennings.
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Old January 13, 2018, 11:00   #42
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I have several Nikon scopes and have had no problems so far. Worst scope I've had was a Leupold and even after they fixed it I didn't like it, other Leupolds I had were OK. The Vortex Crossfire is made in China and many have reported problems with them but they do have a great warranty.
Shhhh..... Nikon disdain is very strong here.

Like all scopes, you get what you pay for. Lower end Nikons, like any other lower end scope (regardless of manufacturer), are third borderline disposable IMHO. I think people expect too much from a $300 or less multiple power optic. Do research, buy exactly what you need for your intended platform, and pay up once with no regrets. If you change platforms and configurations like your girlfriend changes out her handbag, then paying up for costly optics can be unpalatable.

I am a big fan of Nikon's upper end rimfire optics and I have a 10+ year old Nikon X tactical scope that has seen some significant abuse on a couple abnoxious high power rifles.

That said, Nikon's customer service is top notch.

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Old January 17, 2018, 17:13   #43
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I don't dislike Nikon. Have enough invested in Nikon camera lenses to buy a small house. The two Nikon scopes running now have held up linger than any thus far and put them on 7.62 battle rifes out of the box and hammered on them before moving to current hosts. I hope they hold together and to buy more in the future.

The comments on Vortex Crossfire the "made in china" and under $200 is reason I don't own one yet. Only reason to try is Vortex warranty. Every Nikon scope that went south on me they fixed or replaced but if tried using the fixed or replacement it died as well. Think Nikon is hurting their brand with involvememt in sub $200 scope market. Hard to build a cheap scope in China that will hold up to a military style rifles use and conditions. Was initially buying their $250 to $350ish price point scopes. Stepping up to $300 to $425 scopes in current generation and no issues yet.

It's when someone mentions Nikon scope of early generation or under $229 retail I immediately assume scope is first thing to look at when rifle has sudden change in accuracy. How can a Nikon or anybodys $119 BDC reticle scope built for an AR hold up? How much quality and durability can be put in them. Went to Midway's sight, clicked on rifle scopes by brand, Nikon, arrange by price low to high. 20 scope choices under $200. There are 42 scopes ranging from $400 to over $1,000. The high number of sub $200 scopes with Nikon name attract people thinking they are getting real Nikon quality and it drags down the brand.

Would venture to say if stay above the $400 price someone may never see an issue. But Joe looks online and sees a scope that has Nikon name recognition, $179 price and is variable power, has bullet drop and marketed as an AR 15 offensive rifle optic and they end up chasing gremlins that are the fault of Nikon slapping their name on a chinese piece of crap.

I bought three Nikons after Christmas, all $189 street price and paid half of street price. Nikon PROSTAFF Target EFR Rimfire Rifle Scope 3-9x 40mm and betting for rifles they will go on will never die. Have several low/mid price turn bolt rimfire rifles with nice centerfire Leupold scopes. Going to rob the Loopys off them and put the Nikons on them so can use the Loopy scopes on centerfire rifles shoot more often. So breaking my own rule but in controlled way with rifles that if they die just means half a box of wasted rimfire to verify scope died.

Also real close to dropping hammer on a Nikon PROSTAFF 5 Rifle Scope 3.5-14x 40mm because need a silver scope for a mid/upper quality rimfire build and the side focus eliminates parallax issues at closer rimfire ranges. Played with one and will focus to my eyes fine to about 15 to 18 feet. Doubt will use closer than 25 feet as can throw a rock 15 feet. At $299 is about right price point for build but have line on one at a deal. Will say if the two rifles running Nikons on now, the three rimfire that will be getting them transplanted to and the new build getting one if any accuracy issues crop up will suspect scope first out of experience with them.

Anyone that buys a $139 to $179 variable power BDC Nikon (or any brand with all the features plus under $200) and puts on an AR 15 it's buyer beware, especially if it's the rifle you can't afford for the scope to take a dump at inconvenient moment. OP's said his rig had
Quote:
-Nikon "Precision AR Optic" P223 w/ P-series rings.
according to which exact one in that line it's a $119 to $179 scope so I would have to call it as most logical issue to look at first. Yes this thread has become a bit of a Nikon bashing fest but bet most others on the bus are speaking of the preponderance of sub $200 options Nikon offers as well. If I had a scope company would either be known for cheap or great. Would not mix the two and let the cheap tarnish my good and great products reputation.
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Old January 29, 2018, 20:16   #44
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Update #3

I still have not had a chance to sight in the new Leopold or play with the ACOG as work, weather and family have been conspiring against me, but I got an email back today from Nikon that they are repairing it under warranty at no charge
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Old March 30, 2018, 18:34   #45
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Time to move to the other possibility if the scope and mount have been ruled out. You may need to lap the face of the upper. If there is 1 or more high points on the face of the upper it can allow the barrel to rock imperceptibly but enough to allow a moving POI. Lapping the face of the upper trues it to the barrel extension and can eliminate this exact problem. I've corrected exactly this for a buddy who had the identical problem. Everything else was ruled out, even did it with irons. We strapped it into my sled and that proved without a doubt that the issue was something mechanical, and short of a loose barrel nut that's the only thing that could really cause that, especially if the crown is fine and the barrel looks good. So get a lapping tool, some 600grit compound (ou can go 300 but I like it to happen slowly) and clean that face up.
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Old March 30, 2018, 18:35   #46
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Seriously, you should stay away from Freedom Munitions.
It is some of the worst ammo out there. Crappy reman
at new factory prices.

So bad, a close personal friend cut ties with them because
of the shoddy business practices of the company.

But as usual, YMMV.
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Old March 30, 2018, 18:42   #47
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Update #5

Sorry guys. I tried to edit #4 and you guys replied before I got done, so here we are on #5.

A quick recap of update #4, ammo is not the main issue and the scope is not either.

I had checked the barrel nut a few weeks ago but with out removing the gas tube and putting it in a vise. Seemed tight.

After the range day today I started to pull the upper apart. With the gas tube out, the barrel nut is very obviously loose.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner
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Old March 30, 2018, 18:43   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
Update #5

Sorry guys. I tried to edit #4 and you guys replied before I got done, so here we are on #5.

A quick recap of update #4, ammo is not the main issue and the scope is not either.

I had checked the barrel nut a few weeks ago but with out removing the gas tube and putting it in a vise. Seemed tight.

After the range day today I started to pull the upper apart. With the gas tube out, the barrel nut is very obviously loose.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner
Glad to hear.
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Old March 30, 2018, 21:48   #49
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While barrel is off square the upper. If express mail to me will express mail if back and pay shipping myself. Get it squared and back in mail same day.
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Old March 30, 2018, 22:04   #50
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Very generous offer Huey. Thanks, but not for this little carbine project.
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