The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > General Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 13, 2017, 08:30   #51
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,705
the caseless ammo trick has been dreamed of for a long time but has never panned out. steel case ammo is proven. as is brass. caseless is still a pipe dream.
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13, 2017, 20:49   #52
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

Tanto the Marine Corp is in on this as well. Marine Corp COL stood up at Industry day said this was going to be a joint effort. Polymer case is coming.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 13, 2017, 20:59   #53
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 17,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Well,

Tanto the Marine Corp is in on this as well. Marine Corp COL stood up at Industry day said this was going to be a joint effort. Polymer case is coming.

Thorack
Don't take offense, but many of us here remember that this was going to happen, several times in the past.

And it ain't yet and what sinks it this go around, will be what sunk it several times in the past, $$$$$$$$$$.

Is Tanto, Tonto's little brother or older brother, I forget???
Don't really matter, either or can still kick smarty little fellows asses when tha need arises.
Nice folks, large family, don't talk too much though.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 06:08   #54
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

In the past decade the only programs that have survived to fruition have been joint programs. The fact that tha Marines are in on this has probably doubled its chances of survival.

0302 makes it pretty well known he is an indigenous tribal American. I poke fun at him because my ancestors chased some of his around. Scalps were taken on both sides.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 07:37   #55
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,163
Thorack,

Congrats on the raise Trump just signed...
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 09:43   #56
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,705
"an indigenous tribal American", yanno, I am old school so I generally use "American Indian", although the phrase "wagon burner" has a certain appeal. I can only imagine the joy of raiding a cherry wagon train, tomahawking all the dudes & riding off with fresh round eye females, but lets not live in the past. The army has shown a tendency to do stupid shiite, such as the recent camo clusterfu&@k , https://breakingdefense.com/2012/06/...ding-billions/

or the sgt york air defense system, http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-..._1_air-defense

i could go on, but ya catch the drift. so if i express some doubt about the caseless ammo its based on past goof ups. even the russkies have been using steel cased ammo for decades with plenty of graveyards testifying as to its effectiveness.
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 10:20   #57
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,163
Historically the American natives couldn't get past rocks and sticks as their weapons systems so to criticize today's military is pretty lame. Plus from a people who wore skins to deride the uniform is really kinda funky.

Still if the military goes to plastic ammo it will be possible to stop making brass ammo...for everyone.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 14:21   #58
Atla
Registered
Contributor
 
Atla's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 79587
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 572
I have nothing to add to this thread, except that we are using a 53 year old rifle platform to fight a 71 year old weapons system.

Military change is slow, weapons design as well, the only thing increasing quickly is armor, so I won't hold my breath.

We used 'caseless' ammo once before. It was called Paper Patch Bullets.
__________________
***
I write things, and I know things.
GunPowderAndInk.BLOG
Atla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 22:39   #59
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
HKShooter,

Quit flapping your gums and watch the Textron video in the OP. Much simpler design than Fritz's uber gun.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14, 2017, 23:51   #60
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 17,600
Well, if they, the Army really wanted a working case less plastic round, simply offer a $5,000,000 prize for the round selected and then say 5% off the top for the orders made on the ammo over next 10/20 years.
Turn loose all the people that could pull it off, in record time, and far under budget.
And make it fit and function in current inventory firearms, 5.56 to 50 cal. with zero modifications to existing inventory firearms and also allow them to fire brass cased ammo when called for without any modifications.
The weapons, small arms we have now all work.
Place sights on enemy, pull trigger, they fall down, repeat until ya run out of enemy or ammo.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 00:34   #61
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,705
ok, a few facts about the lightweight ammo

"The rifle—and 20 rounds of ammunition—weighs a total of 9.7 pounds. By contrast, the standard M4A1 (pictured above) and 30 rounds of ammunition weigh 8.74 pounds."

"the 20-round magazine is at least as long as a standard M4A1 30 round magazine. While a 30-round magazine may be possible, too long a magazine blocks the user from shooting while prone. In fact, it appears polymer-encased telescoped rounds are actually wider than brass rounds. While each round is lighter, it takes up more volume than its brass-encased peers.

"If that's the case, then Textron's design choice is understandable—if you must carry fewer bullets anyway, you might as well make them hit harder. There are always compromises in small arms design, and the new rifle is no exception. Is losing a third of available ammo and adding three quarters of a pound to the rifle worth a 300 percent increase in bullet energy? Decisions, decisions.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.popul...ed-ammunition/

really, a heavier rifle & 20 rd mag?
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 00:36   #62
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,705
and yeah, my great great great grand daddy probably scalped yours 😜
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 08:28   #63
JonathanW
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 74318
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tampa
Posts: 421
My prototype is currently being machined, ballistic testing begins January- February. It is designed to use Caseless ammunition. Only 3 different parts than standard rifles. Simple design that addresses the failures of previous attempts More capacity in a smaller magazine than an AR magazine. I’m hoping to have everything completed next year and hopefully the design can be submitted to compete with other designs like the polymer telescoped Ammunition
JonathanW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 13:32   #64
0302
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 348
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 8,705
the telescoped ammo isn't caseless according to the vid, the plastic case is ejected after firing. what is the big improvement if the lighter ammo is much more bulky than current ammo & da grunt has less ammo & a heavier weapon? that plastic ammo looks like something a grunt could easily damage.
0302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 13:46   #65
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0302 View Post
and yeah, my great great great grand daddy probably scalped yours 😜
Did your g g g grand daddy live in the south and collect the scalps of bald men?

So does this new system put the gas back into the action like the AR does ? Is it compatible with suppressors? I suppressed my AR and the blow back quickly fouls the next round up in the mag, where is the gas directed on the new gun?
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 15, 2017, 17:44   #66
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 17,600
American ingenuity is not going to be found hiding in a federal government anything.

Remember the Bradly fighting vehicle, designed by a committee, pounced upon by politicians, add in billions wasted in largess, and you get what, an M113 with a turret and ten feet taller??????

Billions on Hummveeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, to replace a standard off the shelf proven Jeep???
Just a bigger target that drinks more fuel, cost far more, and still can't do what a lowly old Jeep does.

The Army is going back to an old uniform.
They might take a long look at going back to old fashion, get close with the enemy and just kill them.

MRE's vs CRats, any arguments from anyone here???
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 16, 2017, 17:06   #67
Elwarpo
Registered
 
Elwarpo's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 38498
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 982
From someone who has humped it in the infantry for many years, weight is everything. If I can save 2 grams a round (not a lot, just 30 grains) going from brass to plastic, my load just lightened a pound. Some will say, 1 pound, that is not a lot, it is if you are carrying it a long way with 50 to 100 of its friends.

I think the military has to really rethink weight, everything from clothing, to weapons, ammo food, supplies... Will the items cost more... yes. Is it worth it... yes.
__________________
<-- My C1A1 and I while serving.


“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke
Elwarpo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2017, 23:39   #68
Artful
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10191
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: arizona
Posts: 3,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Mainer,

The 6.5 AP projectile being developed will be designed to penetrate level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. AP design is secret and wont be used by combat troops until we meet an enemy that regularly uses level 4 body armor.

Once the design is out it will be used on US Service members.

Thorack
Something like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PmUikWEGgw
__________________
I'm not Fat, just Tactially Padded
Artful is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23, 2017, 23:56   #69
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Artful,

Supposed to be a new design and offer better performance than the M80A1. Thats what we are being told in the briefings I have sat in on.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28, 2017, 08:34   #70
Buster H
Registered
 
Buster H's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 31644
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 132
Are the thermoset plastics UV resistant?

I have heard of folks learning the hard way about plastic and UV exposure with regards to plastic plumbing.

Not all ammo lives in a magazine. Anything beltfed is going to see extended UV exposure.

Just curious,

Buster
__________________
Ultima Ratio Regum

-The Last Argument of Kings
Buster H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28, 2017, 09:15   #71
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

Its a good question that the Army I don't think has had a chance to officially test yet. That said from what I have seen the polymer is extremely thick and immediately after firing can be picked up, but inside of the polymer rd is almost molten.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.

Last edited by Thorack; February 10, 2018 at 08:23.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2018, 17:16   #72
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

The last industry day was held a couple of weeks ago and Army Research Labs (ARL) turned the ammo specs over to at least 5 competitors. Prototypes are supposed to be tested in a year.

The Army Chief of Staff was briefed, 4 key points were brought up.

1. Caliber doesn't matter (as much as YOU might think.) Its a secondary performance driver.

2. Ballistic engine (energy at the target) does matter

3. Advanced bullet technology does matter

4. Fire control does matter. Aim error reduction has the largest impact on performance improvement.

One of my peers is working on a new fire control for carbine rifles.

Interesting times.
Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2018, 19:14   #73
HighRatMaster
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
HighRatMaster's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 19296
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oleta, CA USA
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Well,

4. Fire control does matter. Aim error reduction has the largest impact on performance improvement.

One of my peers is working on a new fire control for carbine rifles.
Wow, interesting. Can you elaborate on the new fc?
__________________
Metric FAL parts for sale, PM me.

It doesn't matter what you miss them with.
HighRatMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2018, 20:17   #74
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

From what I remember it has a built laser ranger finder, ballistic calculator, ambient air temp sensor, and inputs for wind speed. Basically moves the retical on to the target after adjusting for all the inputs. Prototypes look like a 3x9 scope with an Acog and a electronics box the size of cigarette pack glued on the back.

The production models are supposed to be much more streamlined looking. Gonna be about 2023 before these hit the force in big numbers.

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.

Last edited by Thorack; January 24, 2018 at 05:23.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 27, 2018, 11:04   #75
raubvogel
Registered
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 64403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAINER View Post
Wow, they are catching up to my 6.5 X 55mm Mauser load. They may be on to something here.
Heresy! Everyone knows Mauser stole their idea. Don't believe me? Here is proof:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorack View Post
Well,

From what I remember it has a built laser ranger finder, ballistic calculator, ambient air temp sensor, and inputs for wind speed. Basically moves the retical on to the target after adjusting for all the inputs. Prototypes look like a 3x9 scope with an Acog and a electronics box the size of cigarette pack glued on the back.

The production models are supposed to be much more streamlined looking. Gonna be about 2023 before these hit the force in big numbers.

Thorack
I thought there was already a rifle in the commercial market you had only to hold the crosshair at the target, press a button to identify it as the target, and press the trigger. The rifle would then do the adjustments to follow the target and hold it in sight until bullet has left barrel. Kinda like missile lock.
__________________
All I'm really asking for here is a knife that will not jam and a unicorn that doesn't need sharpening. Will_Power
It's been my experience that all you really need to harvest a deer is a car. They come right through the windshield just fine. 357ross
That poop is priceless. MFC

Last edited by raubvogel; February 25, 2018 at 07:51. Reason: Missle lock thingie!
raubvogel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 03, 2018, 22:41   #76
Slaughter
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
Slaughter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 73180
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lancaster, CA
Posts: 1,541
Go to 1:20 when they show the action function: chamber, eject, chamber. Clever.
Slaughter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 05, 2018, 13:02   #77
lew
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
lew's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 16727
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 8,190
That looks like one smooth shooter. Good to see that they are incorporating constant recoil (or some sort of buffer).
__________________
Statism: Ideas so great, they're mandatory.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens
lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 05, 2018, 16:29   #78
ratas calientes
Registered
 
ratas calientes's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1841
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 9,168
I am still surprised that a lighter case material based on an aluminum alloy has not been perfected for use. I know that it has been used for pistol ammo (aka Blazer), but why not rifles? Certainly cheaper than brass. Easily recycled.
__________________
Ratas Calientes (Hot Rats)
Rats are people too!
ratas calientes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2018, 21:28   #79
Thorack
Acquisition Corp Dude
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 748
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 12,683
Well,

BG Potts the PEO Soldier Executive that will sign off on the procurement wringing out some of the new cased telescoping rds.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-textron-lsat/

Thorack
__________________
1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised.

2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.
Thorack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2018, 23:59   #80
Artful
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10191
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: arizona
Posts: 3,541
6.5 version
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ine-ausa-2017/

scope tech 1200 yrd first shot hits?


__________________
I'm not Fat, just Tactially Padded

Last edited by Artful; February 28, 2018 at 00:05.
Artful is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files