Mesa AZ:Unarmed man killed by Arizona cop cried, begged for life

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by the gman

Great. I vote too. However, your handle and avatar apparently tell me all I need to know about you.

Deflection, nice to see you fit the mold of low IQ cops!

[Wil-C]

Originally Posted by the gman

You're ignorant and uninformed but don't let that get in the way of your prejudice. Hard to hold citizens to the same standard as cops when you have NO obligation or duty to become involved in any kind of use of force unless you are threatened personally.

The day you saddle up and voluntarily hop off your ivory tower to go face bad people with guns is the day you can be held to the same standard. FYI, if you happened to miss my last post, you'll see cops are held to a much HIGHER standard than Joe Public because if you smoke someone in self defense, you aren't going to be charged with Federal Civil Rights abuse charges nor stand the chance of double jeopardy, most likely won't lose your job or have to spend the rest of your life in a jail where you put many of the turds already incarcerated. But no, please tell me how again how cops need to be held to the same standard as citizens.

I'll wait but as usual, blowhard ignorant tools like you bring NOTHING to the table...

now you're flailing wildly.

I gave you two tries to disprove what I said was the truth, expecting both times you'd prove it to be the truth via your own action, you didn't disappoint me.
Again ad-hoc personal attacks bases on outright falsehoods.

Myself and the rest of the public face bad guys with guns every day, they're called criminals. I faced a small army of them in LA back in `92 entirely on my own.
LE is held to a higher std than the public after a shooting? Every last damned thing you brought up is what the public faces, with the sole exception of a police shooting review, of course we can have total confidence in a police dept reviewing one it's own.....of course we can....

Civilian review boards? We call them juries, part & parcel to a grand jury.

On and on the falsehoods go.

gave you two tries, you failed both times.

Enjoy...

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Wil-C

now you're flailing wildly.

I gave you two tries to disprove what I said was the truth, expecting both times you'd prove it to be the truth via your own action, you didn't disappoint me.
Again ad-hoc personal attacks bases on outright falsehoods.

Myself and the rest of the public face bad guys with guns every day, they're called criminals. I faced a small army of them in LA back in `92 entirely on my own.
LE is held to a higher std than the public after a shooting? Every last damned thing you brought up is what the public faces, with the sole exception of a police shooting review, of course we can have total confidence in a police dept reviewing one it's own.....of course we can....

Civilian review boards? We call them juries, part & parcel to a grand jury.

On and on the falsehoods go.

gave you two tries, you failed both times.

Enjoy...

Yawn. Ignorant as hell. An average citizen confronts a violent criminal.... NEVER. Talk about falsehoods! It is extremely UNLIKELY that the average citizen will face an assault or threat of violence from a criminal in their entire life. If the FBI violent crime stats were controlled for those most at risk of being a victim, (those who live in high crime areas, associate with criminals, participate in criminal activity or other similar categories) the real chances of you, Joe Blow, being a victim of a violent crime is negligible.

https://www.crimeinamerica.net/2010/...violent-crime/

However, 57,180 officers were victims of line-of-duty assaults in 2016. That number doesn't include all the attempts made to assault officers as unless the attempt is reported, it isn't counted. Can't tell you how many folks have taken a swing at me who didn't get charged and/or reported and my fellow officers would tell you the same thing. Who's facing the greater risk? https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...e-line-of-duty

Now then, 'splain to me how you as an individual can be sued in Federal court under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 or 1985? It's simple; you CAN'T. http://www.constitution.org/brief/forsythe_42-1983.htm

Similarly, please explain how you as a non peace officer can be prosecuted by the Feds for violation of Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 241 or 242? You can't, it doesn't apply to you, only state actors. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/242

In most cases involving citizen self defense, it is highly unlikely you will face Federal as well as State charges (and some states have prohibitions against such double jeopardy) but cops are frequently prosecuted in both jurisdictions; Michael Slager was recently sent to Federal jail for 20 years even though he was still facing charges in State court after a mistrial on his first go round.

It is possible you might lose your job as a result of a self defense shooting if it happened in the workplace and your employer had a prohibition on you being armed but outside of that, it is unlikely your career will be over if you shoot someone. I know, George Zimmerman is the exception but his situation is an outlier and statistically irrelevant. Even in that case, the Feds tried really hard to charge him with a Federal crime but they have to prove you willfully used force against someone based on their race or religion. Its a steep mountain to climb as 'willful' is a hard burden to get over.

Courts define “willfully” to require proof that a defendant knew his acts were unlawful, and committed those acts in open defiance of the law. It is one of the highest standards of intent imposed by law.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/feder...trayvon-martin

But, yeah, try and convince me your employer will convene a committee of folks to determine if you violated company policy or committed a criminal act if you smoke someone.

Citizen review boards are extra-judicial bub; that means they act outside of the judicial system as an additional scrutiny of the officer's actions, often independently of an Internal Affairs investigation. They aren't established instead of grand juries or a jury trial (which are two entirely different things BTW). Sheesh, you're not very good at his arguing thing are you??

Please explain the consequences of a citizen shooting someone unlawfully if you can? Then we'll compare them to the consequences of a cop unlawfully shooting someone and figure out who is held to the higher standard... Go ahead, I'll wait.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Riversidesports

Yeah, I know a few old school Officers that detest the LE moniker as well

Several quit, they saw themselves as keeping peace, not enforcing laws

Things started going south in the late 80s when liberal States began passing mandates on police that any time they responded to a domestic somebody had to get a DV and go to the crowbar hotel.
That's not keeping the peace
1st responders need a degree of latitude

Men and wimmins yelling at each other is not really an abnormal thing and for every woman saved from an abusive Man there were likely over a dozen Men screwed over by these mandates.
Classic !
Guy I knew was an OTR Tucker. Came home after a long haul, gal sneeks up, cracks him in the skull with a cast iron Griswold frying pan and he breaks her nose. He ended up with nearly 30 stitches. They both ended up with DVs, went to jail and kiddos in Child protection.

How was society bettered by that shit ?
Cops were under a lesbian manufactured mandate
before all that they might have had one leave the house for the night
Shit I had an ex of mine take a shot at me with my 29' S&W, split her lower lip wide open over that excess. Right in my home.
If she wanted me dead I would be, it was all about getting my attention.

Thank you
Thank you indeed for admitting the reality that the profession really isn't all that dangerous.
In over TWENTY YEARS of service my own father never once drew his sidearm on another, neither did the vast majority of coworkers or the vast bulk of County and State officers.
Most of these Men were totally apathetic about guns, driving fast, etc. Just plain normal folks. They didn't enter into it as a career because they were all altruistic nor were they self styled John Mclains ala die Hard movie fame. It was just an easy career to get into, didn't require enormous intellect and passed on decent bennies

The killer kop mentality is very recent

Yeah, certain jurisdictions and duties can be extremely dangerous
being a deputy in most of rural podunk America ?
probably more dangerous being a clerk in the town convience store or being a bartender really.

DV is a strange animal. Often laws are misunderstood and inadvertently abused by cops trying to do the right thing and not get their ass in a sling from the Sgt. NM has a "shall arrest" DV statute but we are given latitude to determine who is the 'predominant aggressor' rather than the 'primary aggressor.'

In the case you cited, the gal with the skillet would have gone to the gray bar hotel, hubby would have stayed with the kids because she's the predominant aggressor. I've arrested many women for DV on their male partners cuz they can be just as aggressive as men, sometimes more. We are discouraged from making dual arrests on DV; we are really urged to make a determination as to whom is most at fault for the incident.

Reality of DV is this: most times, while it can result in arrest, successful prosecution of it is rare indeed. Wife figures she can change him (she can't) or if he goes to jail for a while, his ability to earn money ends and she'll be out on the street or anyone of a number of reasons why people never help prosecute DV. When someone is arrested for DV in my AO, we have to fill out a form at the jail that lists the victim so they can be notified when the offender is being released. (usually after 24 hours) Can't tell you how many times the victim is at the jail to pick up the offender when we try to notify them... Some people just have violent and/or abusive relationships but they sure generate paperwork for me and my buddies.

You twisted my words; I said the unpredictability of cop work is what makes it dangerous, not that it isn't dangerous. Sure, we've all seen the stats that show the dude on a crab boat in the Bering Sea or the lumberjack chopping timber in the PNW is most likely to die during their employment but this ignores the unknown. How can a crabber die? Washed overboard, crushed by a crab pot, chopped in half by a winch line, yadda, yadda, yadda. These are KNOWN variables and can be controlled for. If its predicable, its preventable.

Contrast that with the 'man with a gun call.' I have no idea if its a kid with a cap gun, a hunter, a lawfully armed citizen or a felon determined not to go back to jail. I've drawn my gun on a few folks but only came close to shooting one dude. Those who are intent on killing or trying to kill cops are just more violent these days or so it seems. Cops are surviving more attempted murders because of better tactics, better armor and more trauma centers. Look at the FBI stats from last year: more cops killed from ambush than ever before and more with long guns than usual. Handguns are still the weapon of choice but there's been a definite uptick in ambush deaths; I call it the "Obama Effect"...

This was the most recent shooting involving a bad guy trying to kill a cop in my AO:

http://krqe.com/2017/08/27/new-mexic...in-farmington/

Even though traffic stops aren't the most dangerous thing cops do, my buddy Lou Golson got shot trying to get a suspected DWI driver off the road:
http://krqe.com/2017/11/30/former-ap...y-a-nightmare/

Can't remember the last time a crab jumped out of a pot and tried to kill a crabber or a tree uprooted itself to beat a logger to death...

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Jaxxas

Deflection, nice to see you fit the mold of low IQ cops!

I have an IQ of 157 and I can prove it. I fear yours is so low I would have to dig to find it...

[Jaxxas]

Originally Posted by the gman

I have an IQ of 157 and I can prove it. I fear yours is so low I would have to dig to find it...

You are a moron, you couldn't find your ass if it was on fire.

[Raggedwhole!]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[V guy]

Why do people become cops, instead of working at Wal-Mart, or at the local warehouse?

Recruitment is generally form a list of highly motivated candidates who passed an entrance exam to become policemen in the first place, and a follow on psychological and background review; most applicants also have an associates degree in criminal justice or higher, and many have a military background.


Education is usually goal driven, as engineers and social workers train for that outcome at school.

Cops are motivated to become cops is the first place. It is not a job for slackers.

Training at a Police academy is pretty much standard, where driving fast and shooting of guns is part of the training, and is something all must pass. Many enjoy guns and shooting, at least around here. Most cops have gun collections.

It is a dangerous job, especially today, as assaults on cops are up, especially in Colorado and other rural areas.

There have been at least 5 cops shot in my rural area in the last decade, and highways get named after them.

The cop in the OP who shot the perp was exonerated, just like the Cops in Baltimore's Freddy Gray death.
That is the cost of democracy and the delegation of the Police Power in action..........nothing is perfect.

We need a force to protect us and we delegate to them the police power and the latitude to get the job done.

Arresting people for DV is not something the Cops made up by themselves.

Watching the tv shows, "Live PD", "Cops", and the "First 48", will give anyone an education in just who the American Public is today and how they are treated by cops.

Anyone who has no contact with Cops, is doing their job as a citizen.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

Why do people become cops, instead of working at Wal-Mart, or at the local warehouse?

Recruitment is generally form a list of highly motivated candidates who passed an entrance exam to become policemen in the first place, and a follow on psychological and background review; most applicants also have an associates degree in criminal justice or higher, and many have a military background.


Education is usually goal driven, as engineers and social workers train for that outcome at school.

Cops are motivated to become cops is the first place. It is not a job for slackers.

Training at a Police academy is pretty much standard, where driving fast and shooting of guns is part of the training, and is something all must pass. Many enjoy guns and shooting, at least around here. Most cops have gun collections.

It is a dangerous job, especially today, as assaults on cops are up, especially in Colorado and other rural areas.

There have been at least 5 cops shot in my rural area in the last decade, and highways get named after them.

The cop in the OP who shot the perp was exonerated, just like the Cops in Baltimore's Freddy Gray death.
That is the cost of democracy and the delegation of the Police Power in action..........nothing is perfect.

We need a force to protect us and we delegate to them the police power and the latitude to get the job done.

Arresting people for DV is not something the Cops made up by themselves.

Watching the tv shows, "Live PD", "Cops", and the "First 48", will give anyone an education in just who the American Public is today and how they are treated by cops.

Anyone who has no contact with Cops, is doing their job as a citizen.

Sorry but that dog don't hunt well in many areas V

First off, there just are not that many Police Academies, that's an urban construct.
Most Officers do not have any sort of a University degree, in the midwest at best it's often an 18 month certification program at either a Votech or Community College

Some times it's not even that V
even at the Federal level
Up here Border Protection Services started a program in the early 2000s that allowed local 16 year old highschool students to start in as seasonal officers
This came about due to severe manpower shortages in the post 911 era. It was bad enough that US Customs was recruiting 70 year old retired members of the service.

As far as qualifications to be an Officer ?
That varies widely upon jurisdiction
I know of kids recruited in Highschool as dispatchers/jailers who study up and just take the certification test eventually. Nope, never spent one hour in some class, it was all on the job training.
Honestly, they are some of the best Officers too.

I disagree with you on it not being a job for slackers, that all depends on the duty V. Being one of two or three City officers in some podunk community of under a thousand souls is pretty easy duty. We still have towns of a few hundred that have a village Constable. Yes, they are Officers and practically none have training. This is rank common in rural America along with volunteer Fire Departments.
Constables are generally appointed by Village councils, given a per diem and supply their own vehicle. Wages are meager, often like $500 a month. It's not seen as a full time job.

I am hardly anti Police I am staunchly anti Idiot though.
truth is if you are interested in that career because you are into being reckless behind the wheel I don't want you given carte blanche to act out in that fashion.

That said I encouraged many young guys to become Officers
mostly because they were already into guns, loved machineguns, etc and it gave them a lawful avenue to play with shit on the cheap. Most of our departments hereabouts have DRML supplied M16s, some even ended up with M60s
if you ARE a gun person there are just huge advantages to having a badge

Again though many Officers have near zero interest in guns
Trust me on this, I used to be the go to guy for a number of departments when in came to servicing arms. Many guns were just messed up crusty.
My experience has always been that you might have one or two gun folks for every ten in any given department.

This was really true on the range V
I grew up shooting qualification alongside County, State and Federal Officers. Dad would bring me along, later State and County guys would pick me up. I'm telling you most Officers had very little skill with their sidearm. The Border Patrolmen were the exception, all were crazy good shooters.

You are spot on, DVs are almost always the result of reporting
my position is in many States LE has been left hamstrung by man hating lesbian inspired Code. The Police deserve latitude. In many States they are mandated to take someone in whenever dispatched to a DV complaint.
Now you add in Lautenberg prohibitions kicking in against RKBA
well that's messed up
remember in some States a mere heated argument can result in a DV conviction. Seen it happen, no physical contact just words.

Then you have the rare White Knight piglet. His motivation is pussy
There was one of those up here for awhile. He was finally let go for multiple stalking complaints. His game was to talk broads into ROs then he started his attempts to get in their panties. One gal finally had him on tape.

Bottomline is Cops are nothing special. Some screw up, most do not
My thing is I hold those in a position of public trust to a far higher standard of personal conduct, same with school teachers, Doctors and social workers.

Lastly and again LE really isn't all that dangerous. It's all about your duty.
Think about it, a good third or more of your typical department work in the LEC dispatching, jailing, doing office duties.
Like it or not, they are still Officers.

It falls to my utter disgust with wartime military Vet worship when many never even left America.
Combat Vets, you folks get my respect. A garbage picker from Fort Hood...not so much.

[V guy]

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5684

Over 600 Police Academies nationwide; 50 states, 600 schools.
Everyone goes, who wears a badge; 45,000 a year.
Corrections Officers are also well trained; they have to be, as Retired Bum knows.

Training is getting more intensive at all levels.

Driving fast has to be taught, and when to back off.
Anyone who has raced, knows the feeling

Acting as a psychologist, social worker and mediator is part of the job today.
Danger is everywhere today, not just Chicago or urban areas.

Just a few links.
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ind...d=39&Itemid=27

http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory

http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory
http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory
http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory

Most level one schools are 750 hrs or more in duration.
Recert schools for former officers, are shorter.

It is a war zone.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5684

Over 600 Police Academies nationwide; 50 states, 600 schools.
Everyone goes, who wears a badge; 45,000 a year.
Corrections Officers are also well trained; they have to be, as Retired Bum knows.

Training is getting more intensive at all levels.

Driving fast has to be taught, and when to back off.
Anyone who has raced, knows the feeling

Acting as a psychologist, social worker and mediator is part of the job today.
Danger is everywhere today, not just Chicago or urban areas.

Just a few links.
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ind...d=39&Itemid=27

http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory

http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory
http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory
http://policelink.monster.com/conten...demy-directory

Most level one schools are 750 hrs or more in duration.
Recert schools for former officers, are shorter.

It is a war zone.

Great deal of difference between what was an "academy" and what qualifies as such under current idiot speak V

Academies were stand alone operations that specialized in training Officer canidates. There never were that many of them. During the 90s a mess of AVTIs and Community Colleges started referring to their certification programs as "Academies" which they never were, it was just advertising spin by administrators...utter adoption of sloganeering V and in many cases the instructors were complete asshats removed from active duty

so you had known fuckups teaching force doctrine

The Votech/Community college programs have extremely little culling of unsuitable folks either. Academies usually did...

Danger ?
That's seriously subjective
I live in a County where we can count the murders since 1900 on less than two hands V and only one was an Officer. Many Counties in America just like mine.
These areas the police get called in After to bag, tag and haul away. It would take at least a half hour for them to arrive once I make a call so you do your duty as a Citizen V

I have encouraged folks to have a minimum of 50 extra long zip ties on hand since the 80s. Put several assholes under an Ithica 37 Riot gun years back. Had the small dude truss his buddies up before I did him then hogged up the lot. By the time the Popo arrived I had pissed on all of them, made them suck on the shotgun barrel, etc.
life lesson they don't get from Officers
Should have seen their eyes when I brought out a spade and started digging a hole next to them. Two pissed all over themselves by the time the county guys showed up.

Anyways, Cops don't mean shit all to me one way or another V
they won't save you from bad shit and they sure can't save me either
That's on the individual
Cops just pick up your pieces after you are already gone.

[V guy]

Simply amazing, and a very, very revealing story.

Cops are the thin blue line protecting most of us from sociopaths and libertarians/sovereign citizens. Without them, it would be a war zone in every county, as sociopaths and libertarians, "set things right", "the way they see things ought to be."

So Cops do save all of us from what otherwise would be a daily rash of crime, as bad people set the prices they would pay.......... for a home to rent (or not pay rent at all), or to take a car, or woman they wanted, or the cash they needed from day to day from some businesses that they offer protection to; kind of like a biker gang running daily life; that without the Cops being a few minutes away to deal with video camera proofs and the bad guys.

The threat of cops is like the threat of the armed homeowner...........both suppress crime that otherwise would be rampant.

I support cops 100%, and their extensive training today, is a far cry from some guy hanging around the pickle barrel in a general store, and becoming an "officer."

Every Dept is under Federal Training requirements and standards today, let alone each cop knowing the criminal, vehicle and traffic laws, procedures for handling the public and perp and knowing forensic investigation basics, before he hits the streets.

Civil and criminal prosecutions, as Gman detailed, await the unwary, as did the OP cop who went on trial.

No jurisdiction can afford to send an untrained dickhead/hayseed out there.

[Raggedwhole!]

It is not as simple as black and white. It's gray. I have respect for leo and the job they have to do. You see body cam footage of a man crying, attempting to follow orders in a game of simon says getting blown away and it is upsetting. I agree with several different viewpoints here. To me LEO isn't a thin blue line that protects me. We are all responsible for our own fate. Again, it is certainly a difficult job. I would not do it.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

Simply amazing, and a very, very revealing story.

Cops are the thin blue line protecting most of us from sociopaths and libertarians/sovereign citizens. Without them, it would be a war zone in every county, as sociopaths and libertarians, "set things right", "the way they see things ought to be."

So Cops do save all of us from what otherwise would be a daily rash of crime, as bad people set the prices they would pay.......... for a home to rent (or not pay rent at all), or to take a car, or woman they wanted, or the cash they needed from day to day from some businesses that they offer protection to; kind of like a biker gang running daily life; that without the Cops being a few minutes away to deal with video camera proofs and the bad guys.

The threat of cops is like the threat of the armed homeowner...........both suppress crime that otherwise would be rampant.

I support cops 100%, and their extensive training today, is a far cry from some guy hanging around the pickle barrel in a general store, and becoming an "officer."

Every Dept is under Federal Training requirements and standards today, let alone each cop knowing the criminal, vehicle and traffic laws, procedures for handling the public and perp and knowing forensic investigation basics, before he hits the streets.

Civil and criminal prosecutions, as Gman detailed, await the unwary, as did the OP cop who went on trial.

No jurisdiction can afford to send an untrained dickhead/hayseed out there.

So now you equate "Libertarians" with bad folks V ?

that is really way out there
realize you are calling down probably over half this forum as scumbags in your self centered little rant. Sure you don't want to reconsider all that ?

Sounds to me as though you confuse Libertarians with Anarchists

So you blindly support Police "100%"
do you support Americas teachers 100% ?
How about Doctors or even the City Garbage Men ?

Do you support Police convicted for rape or molesting Children ?
remember it was you who stated 100%
I just do NOT support them 100% like you do, I recognize they are simply people and people mess up sometimes.

Some folks live in fantasy land. Was America a lawless dangerous place in the 19th Century ?
Not really V
not many cops either

Oh there were bad people but they just didn't live out very long, generally they ended up shot dead by another Citizen. Yes, girls were raped, children diddled and shit stolen. Little of this was reported, the perp was usually disposed of by family. Honestly Police are mostly unnecessary, all you need is a Sheriff who can call up a committee of the people, yes a Posse.

Think I'm wrong ?
Exactly who took down the Dalton Doolin gang at Coffeevile OK
Better yet, who ended the bloody career of the James Younger gang at Northfield Minnesota ?
hint V, it wasn't folks with badges. Who it actually was were members of the general public who grabbed up rifles & shotguns then shot the bad guys full of holes.

This still happens every so often in real rural areas unlike what you think is rural. Mid 80s some west coast punks robbed a bank in Warren MN. Whole bunch of locals chased them down, ran the crew off the road then dragged them out of the wreaked car and beat the ever living shit out of them. Sheriff Brieke didn't arrive on scene until a half hour later, perps were bloodied up badly. That's how things often work in the sticks even today.
We have petty crime here...violent crime is pretty uncommon
for example you beat down and rape a gal here well that's someone's sister, daughter, wife, whatever and the Men don't stand for it.

I realize this crosses grain with your servile New York mindset but it is what it is

Cops protect no one V
That is the duty of the public, not the Police
Cops as I noted are mostly there to pick up the pieces AFTER a criminal act. Prevention of said acts is on each of us as Citizens

anyways Libertarians are not the enemy V
it boggles me that you would assume they are.
guess you loathed Ron Paul and needed Cops to protect you from him too huh...

[V guy]

I am a 100% Cop supporter.

Now, can you seriously defend the sovereign citizen movement?


Libertarians are just like Gary Johnson, and are pretty tame....they just don't know where the hell Aleppo is, and other things.


Without cops just being present everywhere shortly, or available to call, the bad guys would take over or try to.
Burglaries would be up, as would assaults.

People steal or want to, because they do not have what they want, and will act, depending upon the risk. No cops, no risk.
Video cameras and security systems were not developed because of the honesty of people, but because of the bad guys.

That new RING camera doorbell linked to your cell phone is nothing new, but it works.

Crimes would extend against every unarmed citizen who had no defense, against some big guy taking their things and cash, and beating them up to boot.

Many people will be as bad in general, as they can be, and that is at least 5% of the population, and that is way more than enough.

We also actually hire cops according to the observed pressures of the crime wave by the bad 5%, and the number it takes to suppress it.

We cannot allow the 5% to run society, but we do. That is because we respond to them in a negative feedback system........... and they are the ones who cause us to hire cops to "regulate them", so the population can go around unarmed, while the Corrections System performs its "magic" on them, the 5% ers.

[badzero]

Laws and locks only remove temptation from honest people and since you missed the memo the police rarely stop crimes nor its it their job. Their job is income generation and solving crimes after they have happened.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

I am a 100% Cop supporter.

Now, can you seriously defend the sovereign citizen movement?


Libertarians are just like Gary Johnson, and are pretty tame....they just don't know where the hell Aleppo is, and other things.


Without cops just being present everywhere shortly, or available to call, the bad guys would take over or try to.
Burglaries would be up, as would assaults.

People steal or want to, because they do not have what they want, and will act, depending upon the risk. No cops, no risk.
Video cameras and security systems were not developed because of the honesty of people, but because of the bad guys.

That new RING camera doorbell linked to your cell phone is nothing new, but it works.

Crimes would extend against every unarmed citizen who had no defense, against some big guy taking their things and cash, and beating them up to boot.

Many people will be as bad in general, as they can be, and that is at least 5% of the population, and that is way more than enough.

We also actually hire cops according to the observed pressures of the crime wave by the bad 5%, and the number it takes to suppress it.

We cannot allow the 5% to run society, but we do. That is because we respond to them in a negative feedback system........... and they are the ones who cause us to hire cops to "regulate them", so the population can go around unarmed, while the Corrections System performs its "magic" on them, the 5% ers.

Well I don't support ANY profession 100%. There are bad apples in every barrel V. Pretty certain every Officer on the files would agree with that.

sovereign citizen movement?
meh' The vast bulk of those folks are elderly gents who oppose the IRS, your basic tax protestor types.
Known a few of them out in the Dakotas, dead common reasoning among the masses out there. Much of that movement started back in the 70s in the upper midwest.

Nope, no supporter of it, not real opposed to it either. Those folks are by far and large hard core supporters of RKBA extreme bible waving Conservatives.
They are not Libertarians though by any stretch of the imagination. Most I have known are severely anti Homo and anti Drug use for example.

Now I'll admit that movement thought has been spreading even among Blacks who seem to have adopted it for their own ends and means but be aware it's still mostly a White thing that's deeply tied to the militia movement of the 90s. Not been a whole lot of violence with it either.

Back in the 70s you had Gordon Kahl, knew the man pretty well. He was the fool who lit up US Marshalls in North Dakota, btw nearly the entire State seemed to support Gordon back then V

Randy Weaver was another goofball involved in that crap.

Understand, these clowns are correct on a number of their talking point, dead wrong on others. I don't debate them, just nod my head as there is no reasoning with them. That said, they are not about robbing or stealing from others. They just refuse to recognize Federal authority.

I would guess the Bundys fall in this model too.

I disagree why we hire Police these days
It's not about your illusory 5%ers. I can point you to the local police/court blotter in your newspaper. 98% of it is traffic tickets...it's mostly revenue generation.
I mean really, how does not wearing a seat belt impact society ?
Or having darker factory tint on your vehicle.

We have a mess of Officers locally
County
City
State
Border Patrol
Game Wardens
They don't prevent a thing V

We don't have a 5% here. Had one of my properties broken into this Spring, bunch of crap stolen. Didn't bother reporting it, I already know the parties involved. I'm just waiting for things to crop up, then it's on.
I figure their Dad will end up cutting me a check in the end. He's an old friend who knows this ends badly for the boys if I'm not made whole again.

These are not violent perps, just stupid kids who hit a soft target and found cool shit. Thing is, it's not things easily sold. Things will turn up

Anyways Cops do little to prevent anything. You have crews doing crash and dash thefts on Gun shops across America now. Security systems, cameras, nothing stops this. Whole robbery lasts under 5 minutes, they are long gone by the time the first patrol car arrives

[meltblown]

Originally Posted by badzero

Laws and locks only remove temptation from honest people and since you missed the memo the police rarely stop crimes nor its it their job. Their job is income generation and solving crimes after they have happened.

You tend to be correct, unfortunately. A former state trooper friend said it was to protect the interests of the elite.

[V guy]

Cops are like Dams and Levees.............both keep things generally under control and regulate things.

Without the presence of cops, the occasional burglary would be a daily thing for the weak and unarmed. Ferguson would be like Aleppo.

If the weak and unarmed are the elites, well there it is. Cops allow the weak and unarmed to go about their daily business.

I live in a rural area, and we still have regular bank robberies, holdups, murders, shootings, stolen cars, meth labs, shoplifting (a real problem here), burglaries, and thefts by drug crazed people needing cash. Cops are also shot while on duty.

That is, WITH cops available to respond.

Without them it would be total anarchy, and the body count would be high and fuel feuds, by those who want to get even with those who stopped their kin from robbing them in the first place.

Nope we need cops, and Cops have been part of society for the last 10,000 years. We need jails and we have had them for the same 10,000 years.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

Cops are like Dams and Levees.............both keep things generally under control and regulate things.

Without the presence of cops, the occasional burglary would be a daily thing for the weak and unarmed. Ferguson would be like Aleppo.

If the weak and unarmed are the elites, well there it is. Cops allow the weak and unarmed to go about their daily business.

I live in a rural area, and we still have regular bank robberies, holdups, murders, shootings, stolen cars, meth labs, shoplifting (a real problem here), burglaries, and thefts by drug crazed people needing cash. Cops are also shot while on duty.

That is, WITH cops available to respond.

Without them it would be total anarchy, and the body count would be high and fuel feuds, by those who want to get even with those who stopped their kin from robbing them in the first place.

Nope we need cops, and Cops have been part of society for the last 10,000 years. We need jails and we have had them for the same 10,000 years.

Ten thousand years

ugh NO

Policing as we know it is very recent. Try with the establishment of the first police force, the London Metropolitan in the early 19th Century which was mirrored a few years later by New York City in the 1830s.

Prior to that you had a very limited number of Marshalls who were officers of the Federal Courts and Sheriffs, other than that just Constables.

England had a very similar system however the Sheriffs were largely just tax collectors for nobles. Think Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood lore V

This was true as well in France and a few other European nations. Their Cops were not there to assist the public, they were the shakedown crew that often raped your wife or daughters too.

Ancient Rome did have a form of police but they were more firefighters than cops. I have no clue where you can come up with anything much earlier than that and again, they really were not police.

Jails are rather recent as well. They were mostly for nobles. Common folks were executed, only important folks ended up in the Tower of London.

This was how Man did things
if you were not executed or physically punished you were sold into slavery or just kicked out of the Country. That's how Eric the Red ended up in Iceland and why his son Lief Erickson ended up in Greenland...those boys just kept killing other men and getting booted out by their peers.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Riversidesports

Ten thousand years

ugh NO

Policing as we know it is very recent. Try with the establishment of the first police force, the London Metropolitan in the early 19th Century which was mirrored a few years later by New York City in the 1830s.

Prior to that you had a very limited number of Marshalls who were officers of the Federal Courts and Sheriffs, other than that just Constables.

England had a very similar system however the Sheriffs were largely just tax collectors for nobles. Think Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood lore V

This was true as well in France and a few other European nations. Their Cops were not there to assist the public, they were the shakedown crew that often raped your wife or daughters too.

Ancient Rome did have a form of police but they were more firefighters than cops. I have no clue where you can come up with anything much earlier than that and again, they really were not police.

Jails are rather recent as well. They were mostly for nobles. Common folks were executed, only important folks ended up in the Tower of London.

This was how Man did things
if you were not executed or physically punished you were sold into slavery or just kicked out of the Country. That's how Eric the Red ended up in Iceland and why his son Lief Erickson ended up in Greenland...those boys just kept killing other men and getting booted out by their peers.

It is widely accepted the first written laws were established around 1754BC in the Code of Hammurabi but they only built upon laws that were mostly unwritten in Mesopotamia which stretched back to 3000BC. The Code of Hammurabi established punishments for such crimes as murder, domestic violence and failing to build a sturdy house. Such punishments were often extremely harsh (it is the origin of the concept of 'an eye for an eye' or retaliatory punishments) and there were mechanisms to ensure justice for those wronged. None of this presumes there was a full time police force or agency to enforce these laws but there certainly must have been an enforcement arm of the crown to ensure the masses were kept in check.

To come full circle, my current agency is a Sheriff's Office with an elected representative at its head who can serve a maximum of 2 terms. Any citation written that involves a financial penalty does not benefit the agency one iota. We do not receive a nickle of funds from fines or traffic tickets hence most traffic stops are resolved by warnings, either verbal or written. Now, if you are driving without a license, or registration or insurance, depending on your driving history, you can expect to receive either a 'fix it' ticket (fix the underlying issue before a certain date and the citation will be dismissed) or a penalty citation. Uninsured motorists are a PITA for everyone.

If we could get rid of the hopeless and failed 'War on Drugs' we could reduce the number of cops actually needed to work in their communities, ensure we hired good ones, pay them accordingly and focus on the real turds in our societies.

[badzero]

You address the fines going to the local/ state gov, but where do funds generated by asset forfeiture go?

I know my city's police department (population 58,000) just bought a brand new 170k "CSI" van, paid for in entirety with funds from the years asset forfeiture take.

I agree with your last paragraph 100% though, Darwin will sort any problems legalizing everything would cause within a year.

[V guy]

The Egyptian Dynasties that go back 5000 years from today, (3000 bce) had a well developed code of civil and criminal justice.

Common thieves were usually used as slaves, and cases of murder, the guilty were punished by execution.

Read the Egyptian Book of the Dead for some background about their beliefs.
Order has to be kept in every Army of the day from Gilgamesh forward, and those rules and laws have not changed one bit to today.

Order has to be kept among the crazies in society, for any King or government to rule.

Were laws invented only 5,000 years ago?, or do the ancient hand me down oral histories of the Chinese, and other relics of history also describe laws?

India has ancient texts that also outline common laws.

The point here is that the sovereign citizens/extreme libertarians view that law enforcement or the IRS, is un needed, or stupid or untrained or lazy or corrupt or oversexed, is simply wrong.

1%-5% bad guys in every group.


Cops keep it safe enough for me to go about unarmed and not worry about carrying a knife or gun most of the time.
I also do not have to worry much about burglaries or breakin's as the cops are regularly busting up petty criminal burglars and drug crazed thieves/shoplifters.

Yep, cops imprison and jail plenty of men and women each month, nationwide, and those that are in jail get to wear nice OJ jumpsuits, most cleaner than their regular everyday street clothing.

Those people in jail are not your typical welders or farmers or factory workers or office help or firemen or cops or soldiers or truckers or loggers or anything but scum who we need in jail to make things safer for us, while their underclassmen are out there waiting to take their place.

Best part is most lose their gun rights and right to do much of any good employment. It all serves as an example to the others that their fate is deetermined by society, those people they hate, and its long history of employing law enforcement officers to do their bidding.

The advent of the mass produced car, according to Henry Ford, corrupted society as it allowed boys to get off the farm, with girls, into deep moral corruption and crime, and he rued the day he invented the damn things.

He did not realize it, but the invention of the auto en masse, allowed the cops and the long arm of the law to obtain fast cars, to reach out there further and faster to grab the miscreants that othewise would be running out scott free with their burglary loot and making a living on crime.

The 357 Magnum was invented for Cops to use on miscreants.

So you see, that cop you observe, is saving your life and keeping everyone (almost ) honest by his simple presence in uniform.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by the gman

It is widely accepted the first written laws were established around 1754BC in the Code of Hammurabi but they only built upon laws that were mostly unwritten in Mesopotamia which stretched back to 3000BC. The Code of Hammurabi established punishments for such crimes as murder, domestic violence and failing to build a sturdy house. Such punishments were often extremely harsh (it is the origin of the concept of 'an eye for an eye' or retaliatory punishments) and there were mechanisms to ensure justice for those wronged. None of this presumes there was a full time police force or agency to enforce these laws but there certainly must have been an enforcement arm of the crown to ensure the masses were kept in check.

To come full circle, my current agency is a Sheriff's Office with an elected representative at its head who can serve a maximum of 2 terms. Any citation written that involves a financial penalty does not benefit the agency one iota. We do not receive a nickle of funds from fines or traffic tickets hence most traffic stops are resolved by warnings, either verbal or written. Now, if you are driving without a license, or registration or insurance, depending on your driving history, you can expect to receive either a 'fix it' ticket (fix the underlying issue before a certain date and the citation will be dismissed) or a penalty citation. Uninsured motorists are a PITA for everyone.

If we could get rid of the hopeless and failed 'War on Drugs' we could reduce the number of cops actually needed to work in their communities, ensure we hired good ones, pay them accordingly and focus on the real turds in our societies.

No real argument with you on this, tis' true there were early legal codes not just in the Fertile Cresent but in China and India as well as Egypt. Surprisingly they were extremely common sense based.
The Barbarian tribes had extensive laws, the Western concepts of Divorce, alimony and child support devolve from them.

Enforcement though largely seems to have been a leader one reported the crime to who made a judgement call on whether an actual violation occurred. Often it was a committee of the people, a posse that served as the enforcement to bring the violator to adjudication.

this said, laws do not presuppose Police. They were once seen as largely unneeded. It was just expected good folks defended themselves and others
Early 19th century New England was forever emulating European shit. The London Metropolitan Police, the Prussian educational system, you name it.

As I have noted many times Everything is jurisdictional. Sounds like yours has it's head screwed on straight. I love to hear that but truly yours is somewhat the exception when it comes to allocation of fines.
For example in many jurisdictions somebody writes you a bad check and ends up in Court the jurisdiction is only concerned with the fine being paid, not making the actual victim whole again. Been through this a number of times.
Court orders restitution but if not paid you end up having to take the matter before small claims. Most victims just give up.

On the uninsured, folks tend to overlook that compulsory liability is somewhat recent. Seem to recall my State was one of the first to apply it and that was in the 50s. At that time you were able to obtain a wavier if you established a trust account dedicated to covering your liability. Thing to remember insurance developed due to extensive lobbying by the insurance industry which is underwritten by the banksters.
Yeah same asshole who gave us seat belts, airbags, helmets and other safety nazi crap.
Same group that would love compulsory liability on every Gun owner.
When liability was first imposed there was tons of resistance by the masses
You can thank the bankers for the cost of health care in our Nation
it all boils down to actutary tables where you pay more to cover a red sports car than a white one.

I am sort of with you on the War on drugs line. I am a product of the 60s & 70s so yeah I indulged when much younger however I do oppose complete deregulation of everything. For example I detest Meth heads. I have had to deal with their ilk a number of times, still am as the boys who raided my other place are known Tweekers, figure it's only a matter of time before they decide to hit the home I live in, as such various countermeasures have been installed on the property.

Yes, we can greatly reduce the need for Enforcers by loosening up the War footing but then those folks will need real jobs. I am no fan of most Drug interdiction officers, many are users themselves, I detest double standards.
I don't mind the gradual progression to overall sanity regarding Marijuana but it needs to be coupled with other measures such as universal welfare reform to become effective.

I am seriously miffed over the focus on Opiods. It's not Oxycodone murdering folks it's synthetics pouring into America from China. It's all over, even up here in Northern Minnesota, just a ton of ODs in the region, a number of deaths too. Few want to assign the blame on the actual source of the poison. Cartels don't make this shit, it's bing mail ordered in from the dark web and paid in bit coin or whatever. Same source as Spice and Bath Salts.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

The Egyptian Dynasties that go back 5000 years from today, (3000 bce) had a well developed code of civil and criminal justice.

Common thieves were usually used as slaves, and cases of murder, the guilty were punished by execution.

Read the Egyptian Book of the Dead for some background about their beliefs.
Order has to be kept in every Army of the day from Gilgamesh forward, and those rules and laws have not changed one bit to today.

Order has to be kept among the crazies in society, for any King or government to rule.

Were laws invented only 5,000 years ago?, or do the ancient hand me down oral histories of the Chinese, and other relics of history also describe laws?

India has ancient texts that also outline common laws.

The point here is that the sovereign citizens/extreme libertarians view that law enforcement or the IRS, is un needed, or stupid or untrained or lazy or corrupt or oversexed, is simply wrong.

1%-5% bad guys in every group.


Cops keep it safe enough for me to go about unarmed and not worry about carrying a knife or gun most of the time.
I also do not have to worry much about burglaries or breakin's as the cops are regularly busting up petty criminal burglars and drug crazed thieves/shoplifters.

Yep, cops imprison and jail plenty of men and women each month, nationwide, and those that are in jail get to wear nice OJ jumpsuits, most cleaner than their regular everyday street clothing.

Those people in jail are not your typical welders or farmers or factory workers or office help or firemen or cops or soldiers or truckers or loggers or anything but scum who we need in jail to make things safer for us, while their underclassmen are out there waiting to take their place.

Best part is most lose their gun rights and right to do much of any good employment. It all serves as an example to the others that their fate is deetermined by society, those people they hate, and its long history of employing law enforcement officers to do their bidding.

The advent of the mass produced car, according to Henry Ford, corrupted society as it allowed boys to get off the farm, with girls, into deep moral corruption and crime, and he rued the day he invented the damn things.

He did not realize it, but the invention of the auto en masse, allowed the cops and the long arm of the law to obtain fast cars, to reach out there further and faster to grab the miscreants that othewise would be running out scott free with their burglary loot and making a living on crime.

The 357 Magnum was invented for Cops to use on miscreants.

So you see, that cop you observe, is saving your life and keeping everyone (almost ) honest by his simple presence in uniform.

We really are not far apart V
Golbeki Tepi pushed the civilization clock back 13 thousand years and I am absolutely certain that society had Laws too
Cops and Jails not so much friend.
Pretty certain higher civilization likely dates back maybe fifty thousand years frankly.

You are quite wrong regarding that Soverign Citizen movement being anti LE
back in the 70s it was known as the Posse Commitatus. Their basic principle was that the highest order was the elected County Sheriff. Few if any deputies but every Citizen was obligated to assist the Sheriff on demand. The movement was extremely popular in County LE circles as it rabidly supported the Sheriff.

Prior to that you had the Minutemen movement in the 50s, rabidly anti Communist and also quietly supported by local LE on the West Coast

Want funny ?
in the 70s Gordon Kahl was on the FBIs ten most wanted list for months, nearly every weekend he was doing Tax protest meetings in ND advertised in Newprint
Local LE wanted nothing to do with busting that WWII/Korea War Hero, serious multi Theater combat vet, real nice guy too.

Hmmmm...
V, you have ate the Apple regarding how much a felony conviction affects a Citizen. Nope, it really doesn't hammer employment opportunities all that hard, that's mostly lefty hogwash. Locally we have two Men with old felonies that are multi millionaire business owners.
Don't much affect being able to get into a University, in fact they often qualify for special grants due to that status.
RKBA ?
Well you think a felon really gives a shit about YOUR laws ?
Use your head buddy
do you think folks under Lautenberg take their prohibitions seriously ?
Many don't

One just huge problem to consider is once you strip a Citizen of rights he is far less inclined to follow your precious rule based system of regulations.
You get snagged for an unregistered machinegun with a suppressor that's just what you end up charged with.
A Felon ?
oftentimes the NFA counts are pled away and he gets hammered on Felon in possession, you both do the same time
pretty sour Apples eh' but it's the reality of the Federal Court system these days.

None of the Felons I know locally hate society, most just screwed the Poodle over Marijuana, many voted for the Donald, some are raving bible thumpers and a very few are complete wastes of skin.
Having been busted with a few joints in the 70s does not a scumbag make.

I'm all for keeping certain scum under lifetime supervision but they are few and far between.
Thing is at any given time in this region the vast bulk of those in County jails are not even close to your 5%

Ford by the way was a blatant supporter of Hitler and the Nazi party, I mean big time.
And he was a Johnny Come Lately when it came to the automotive industry
He just made cars more reasonable for the average Joe to purchase

The .357 round ?
No less than the President of the NRA was pushing for the round to be restricted to police/military use only in the 30s as he felt it was just too powerful for the rest of us peons.

yeah how about that ?

Honestly, oftentimes we are mostly in agreement until you pull some Rabbit through your ass ring like this ten thousand years of police

[V guy]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/spo...190934629.html

A practical example is this link.
Richard Childress of Nascar fame, was just the victim of a home invasion.

Childress' personal worth is over $250 million dollars.

That he was able to shoot at the invaders was a fortunate thing, as they were not there to just take some money from the safe....... and thank him.
He was close to being killed or taken hostage to an ATM or worse.

He took personal responsibility and was armed, but did not think he needed a security detail or more police patrols.

The point is that he was under prepared and needed better security, as the cops were not there, but nearby, and neither was his personal security detail, one that he can afford and should be paying for, with his wealth level.

However the cops are now on the job and realize the gravity of this situation and their obligatory service to the very rich in his area.

Childress does not have to track them down, but may employ persons to do so.

The fact that the cops are on the job, means that the likelihood of repeat incursions are greatly lessened, and an army of thugs is not likely to come back, but they may.....

No police means anarchy, and a balance has to be maintained between too much and that of not enough.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/spo...190934629.html

A practical example is this link.
Richard Childress of Nascar fame, was just the victim of a home invasion.

Childress' personal worth is over $250 million dollars.

That he was able to shoot at the invaders was a fortunate thing, as they were not there to just take some money from the safe....... and thank him.
He was close to being killed or taken hostage to an ATM or worse.

He took personal responsibility and was armed, but did not think he needed a security detail or more police patrols.

The point is that he was under prepared and needed better security, as the cops were not there, but nearby, and neither was his personal security detail, one that he can afford and should be paying for, with his wealth level.

However the cops are now on the job and realize the gravity of this situation and their obligatory service to the very rich in his area.

Childress does not have to track them down, but may employ persons to do so.

The fact that the cops are on the job, means that the likelihood of repeat incursions are greatly lessened, and an army of thugs is not likely to come back, but they may.....

No police means anarchy, and a balance has to be maintained between too much and that of not enough.

Damn' dude you keep rotating around uber rich fools

I give no shits about multi millionaires

Think about that some
he can afford to sleep in a fully armored up "safe" room with whatever arms he wants
most wealthy depend on someone else
shit they can not even change a tire, screw them

They can't turn a wrench
they can't cook a thing
clueless scum

I try to protect the weak without those means, I have no shits given about the wealthy

I mean hell guy can you get down on your knees and suck rich dick any harder for that tasty load ?

I'm not at all anti wealth but if you have it and flaunt it then use it. Don't cry about how the public should spend more time protecting your sorry ass because you have money

Nope don't buy into your shit and will never support it either
You want some huge estate, pay for your own security. Police are needed elsewhere.

[V guy]

The cops are already protecting the weak, you can take the time off.
No one is indispensable; cops retire and prove it all the time.

Proof? We live in a relatively safe environment because of the cops.

This is not a 3rd world nation, except where the cops do not go, like S Chicago;that is why the want to send in UN troops, BECAUSE there are no cops who can control it.

Cuba is a police state, that is why they have no revolution.

We have a balance here, not too many cops.
Because of the cops who we desperately need to xxxx the types who invaded Childress' home, we are relatively safe from roving bands of thugs invading the homes of the rich and middle class............. on a daily basis.

Home invasion is about the worst thing that can happen to a person outside of being shot on the street, or a bad crash.

Cops keep that threat way down because of the risk of apprehension and being shot at.
No cops, no peace.

You are safe because of the cops, not in spite of them.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

The cops are already protecting the weak, you can take the time off.
No one is indispensable; cops retire and prove it all the time.

Proof? We live in a relatively safe environment because of the cops.

This is not a 3rd world nation, except where the cops do not go, like S Chicago;that is why the want to send in UN troops, BECAUSE there are no cops who can control it.

Cuba is a police state, that is why they have no revolution.

We have a balance here, not too many cops.
Because of the cops who we desperately need to xxxx the types who invaded Childress' home, we are relatively safe from roving bands of thugs invading the homes of the rich and middle class............. on a daily basis.

Home invasion is about the worst thing that can happen to a person outside of being shot on the street, or a bad crash.

Cops keep that threat way down because of the risk of apprehension and being shot at.
No cops, no peace.

You are safe because of the cops, not in spite of them.

Oh Lord my gawd, you are not even close to being rural then V

I am in County jurisdiction, close to town but it still takes close to a hald hour most of the damn time. Wanna know why it's pretty safe here ?
Unlike where you live in New York nearly every home has a damn gun here, often a few of them. Everyone knows this, real dangerous to mess up near folks homes.

I see you drew away from this crap regarding we need piglets to defend the Wealthy. Good, that was really ignorant shit. Officers are not some security force for folks with cash. Most of us are already taxed into that base

anyways you may think cops keep you safe
I have never seen any of that here

no shooting of them
no bank robberies or the rest of your claims
plain rural life

try it some time...

[the gman]

Originally Posted by badzero

You address the fines going to the local/ state gov, but where do funds generated by asset forfeiture go?

I know my city's police department (population 58,000) just bought a brand new 170k "CSI" van, paid for in entirety with funds from the years asset forfeiture take.

I agree with your last paragraph 100% though, Darwin will sort any problems legalizing everything would cause within a year.

NM doesn't allow for asset forfeiture unless its as part of due process. Individual agencies have been working to circumvent the law as written which was intended to prohibit asset forfeiture without a criminal conviction but the state is working to close all of that unconstitutional shit down.

http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com...-the-loophole/

[badzero]

In my state I'm not sure charges are even required, I know a conviction isn't for sure, kinda like the federal laws which in court are more times than not used as a guideline.

[V guy]

I have driven all over Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Ontario to name a few.

I was astounded to see that Wisconsin and Minnesota were not as rural as upstate NY.

It seemed that every damn square inch of Wisconsin and Minnesota is spoken for, raked up and and neat as a pin.

After accounting for NYC, the population of upstate NY is about 8 million while W and M are about 6 million each

The great plains, well that is just wheat and corn.

The upstate NY area is far more isolated and rural, to the north and south of the I90 corridor than Wisconsin.

At one time there were 250,000 farms in upstate NY--1880, but today there are less than 5,000 real farms. So much acreage has gone back to forest, that it is hard to fathom.

[Riversidesports]

Originally Posted by V guy

I have driven all over Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Ontario to name a few.

I was astounded to see that Wisconsin and Minnesota were not as rural as upstate NY.

It seemed that every damn square inch of Wisconsin and Minnesota is spoken for, raked up and and neat as a pin.

After accounting for NYC, the population of upstate NY is about 8 million while W and M are about 6 million each

The great plains, well that is just wheat and corn.

The upstate NY area is far more isolated and rural, to the north and south of the I90 corridor than Wisconsin.

At one time there were 250,000 farms in upstate NY--1880, but today there are less than 5,000 real farms. So much acreage has gone back to forest, that it is hard to fathom.

Northern third of minnesota is largely wilderness. State Forests, National Forests, vast areas of straight up Bog and Swamp, there is a thirty by seventy mile wide tract of that north of Bemidji alone with one lonely highway running through the middle of it V

Yeah, Northern New York has a ton of forest land too, difference is access. Minneapolis is six hours from the Northern part of the State, urban parts of your State just a mere hour or less if you include Albany. It's all about population densities and distances.

California has plenty of wilderness areas full of criminal activity, again it's access & distance from Urban zones.

It's incredible, you can walk through New England forests with 100+ year old trees and constantly run across stone fences and foundations, those areas had been fully settled many years ago and ended up abandoned. A fair share of Northern MN was the same. Folks give up homestead claims, much of it ended up replanted by the CCC becoming State and National forests.

Anyways due to proximity nothing is very rural in New England outside of parts of Northern Maine

Here if you draw a line across this state using Interstate Highway 2 the net population might break two hundred thousand, likely not even that. That's a far larger area than upstate New York with it's eight million V

Up until a few years back it was close to a hundred miles to the nearest McDonalds or Domono's pizza. They finally added a MDs to a Cenex 40 miles away. Same with UPS or Fedex hubs, near hundred miles one way. No local Western Union either. That my friend is Rural
County seat, a couple thousand, couple other towns of roughly a thousand, everything else is like one or two hundred, not many of them and this is a large County. Neighboring County is larger, really just one town left of 2500. Koochaching County is huge, not much there outside of International Falls
up until recently that County ran a homesteading program, yeah they were giving land away to improve the tax base. That's seriously rural
We still have schools with graduating classes under twenty kids in this part of the State.

For example, here is the 2015 graduating class from the Highschool in Indus MN !
Yeah just SIX kids
Most Filers have no clue what "rural" really means V



The school is a decent one, it's about half way between Baudette to the west and International Falls to the East, maybe 30 odd miles either way. One town, Birchdale with a couple hundred folks, a very small PO and an old Merchantile that sells meat, milk, booze, smokes, ammo, etc. Not uncommon seeing cars with no plates at the store. No damn cops needed either. You screw up in those parts nobody calls the police. They take care of business themselves V.

Plenty of places in ND like this too, twenty thirty miles to the nearest grocery store but you can buy milk, bread and hamburger at the town bar. Some small comunities still pump gas on the honor system. Pull up, fill your tank, grab some smokes then make your own change in the till, yeah nobody actually works there. Now that's rural too huh'

Largest County in ND is Slope, County seat in Amidon might be 50 people if that. County population is roughly four thousand. Not much corn or wheat, it's all Bad lands. Just a County Sheriff and one deputy. Knew the former Sheriff well, great guy. Had no interest or need for more deputies. Like he told me as far as he was concerned every Citizen in his County was a deputy he depended on and mind me this V that's for over 1200 square miles of County.
Billings County is similar, just one real town, the County Seat in Medora. Crazy old Cow town that's been turned into a Tourist trap. Cool place to visit if you are into that.

Here's one, Roundup Montana
So here I am sitting with the local Cop pulling back long necks at the bar. Kept noticing through the window kids chunking beer cans at the yield sign outside the bar. Finally ask the old Sheriff, What's up with that ?
He explains it was just what kids did, they cleaned up the cans before going home and parents rather would have their boys in girls drunkenly driving in town than out in the sticks where there was a better chance of serious injury.
Watched the bartender sell beer to kids several times that night right in front of a uniformed officer. No shits given by anyone.

I can go on and on with regards to this topic friend. Police simply are not as needed as some think. Where you and a few others have grown addicted to the protection syndicates there are still a great many areas where they are nearly non existant and there is almost no criminal BS even without LE.

Like I keep telling you folks, it's all situational
You can still live free in parts of America, even drive blind drunk down Main Street after bar close with nearly zero chance of shit happening. Nobody seems to crash & burn, hell people target practice in their back yards right in town.

Anyways, this is what I mean when I say rural V
You won't find it much below Highway 2 in Minnesota or really anywhere in New York State

[Mebsuta]

The most sparsely populated places in teh 48 states are in W. Texas.