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Old September 28, 2017, 18:27   #101
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Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
because the flyer is dated 94'-95' at the start of the AW ban era.
They were not transferable to the general public at that point as they had AW features. When the ban went belly up a decade later they were no longer restricted.

Same deal as LEO ARs and LEO marked magazines.
A possible explanation. However, as pointed out, the same notation is on obvious Class III weapons.

So, I'd like to see what the flyer says.


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Originally Posted by .30-06 View Post
They are semi-autos, as they were never configured for FA. The ATF went after them and the courts shut them down.
Good information. What is the case/date? I'd like to read it.
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Old September 28, 2017, 18:58   #102
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Originally Posted by 4markk View Post
A possible explanation. However, as pointed out, the same notation is on obvious Class III weapons.
The L1A1 rifles were sold and transferred to individual officers, not departments. If these rifles were Class III that would not be possible (legal). The same notation is on the M14 because the same restriction applies. Neither are transferable, however for completely different reasons.

As pointed out, during the AWB individual police officers could still purchase rifles with "evil features" and normal capacity magazines ( 10+ rounds ) but only by having their chiefs permission, which was typically provided via a department head letter. This included both domestic rifles like Colt LE6920's or imported guns like the Saiga 12"c" shotguns, or CIA L1A1 rifles.

Rifles that were individually sold to police officers could actually be legally transferred to "civilians" during the period of the AWB, but they had to be neutered of their evil features, and in the case of imported guns, additionally had to have the proper amount of domestically produced parts added to them.

After the AWB was not renewed, they could be transferred without any alterations. It is all actually pretty simple... but fuds gotta fud, thus this conversation.

Last edited by slag; September 28, 2017 at 19:10.
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Old September 28, 2017, 19:06   #103
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Originally Posted by slag View Post
These rifles were sold and transferred to individual officers, not departments. If they were Class III that would not be possible (legal).

As pointed out, during the AWB individual police officers could purchase rifles with "evil features" or normal capacity magazines ( 10+ rounds ) by having there chiefs permission typically provided via a department head letter.

This included both domestic rifles like Colt LE6920's or imported guns like the Saiga 12"c" shotguns, or CIA L1A1 rifles.

These rifles that were individually sold to police officers could even be legally transferred to "civilians" if they were neutered of their evil features, and in the case of imported guns, also had the proper amount of domestically produced parts added to them.

After the AWB was not renewed, they could be transferred without any alterations. It is all actually pretty simple... but fuds gotta fud, thus this conversation.
I know all about the Clinton Assault on Weapons ban and restrictions on different classes of guns.

I am asking for the cite that is referenced so I may add it to my scholarship.
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Old September 28, 2017, 19:07   #104
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A possible explanation. However, as pointed out, the same notation is on obvious Class III weapons.

So, I'd like to see what the flyer says.
Well that NFA is on a form 10 so yeah, it's non transferable as well.

I too would like to see what the disclaimer is
Remember that even during the ban era a run of the mill 01 FFL could posses LE only firearms, just couldn't sell them to Joe Citizen.

Joe Citizen could possess even the LE only restricted mags so long as he was selling them only to LE. The problem was the AW act did not create a licensing scheme so ATF was left hamstrung to do much with it.
Same situation when the Viet Kongress banned interstate sales of automatic knives...there was nothing in the law that created a licensing standard for distribution to LE & Military.
Yeah a hot, wet mess.

Interesting side to all this is is as I noted these LE sales had been going on for years with L1s. The pre 94' issue was non compliance with 992r
Thing is LE is exempted from most things, 922r, all the import bans, etc.
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Old September 28, 2017, 19:26   #105
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From the same brochure... another "non-transferable" rifle... Chicom semi auto AK, one that was illegal for us "civilians" due to the Bush41 ban. Also a Romanian "Dragunov", non-transferable due to the intact bayo lug and U.S. parts count.

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Old September 28, 2017, 19:57   #106
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From the same brochure... another "non-transferable" rifle... Chicom semi auto AK, one that was illegal for us "civilians" due to the Bush41 ban. Also a Romanian "Dragunov", non-transferable due to the intact bayo lug and U.S. parts count.
Bush-41 had no ban on firearms sales to us "civilians". Which ban are you referring?
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Old September 28, 2017, 20:06   #107
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Bush-41 had no ban on firearms sales to us "civilians". Which ban are you referring?
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/15/us...h.html?mcubz=3
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Old September 28, 2017, 20:13   #108
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[QUOTE=4markk;4483742]Bush-41 had no ban on firearms sales to us "civilians". Which ban are you referring?[/QUOTE

Yes he did in 1989. He banned these evil semi auto rifles





Since these were not transferable I wonder if I can own them?
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Old September 28, 2017, 20:31   #109
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Bush-41 had no ban on firearms sales to us "civilians". Which ban are you referring?
HW was/is a serious piece of shit
The whole AW crap was started by him
it was made law by the Viet Kongress with 922r which in turn Feinstein argued that if they shouldn't be imported the should not be made domestically either.

The reason why Bush did this was payback primarily to Bill Ruger who was seeing sales of his Mini 14 series implode. Bill donated a huge wad of cash to the Bush 41' campaign, remember he refused to sell high cap mags to the public going back into the 70s.

of course the initial Bush ban exempted sales to LE
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Old September 28, 2017, 20:31   #110
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I remember fuds arguing over LEO marked magazines and guns after the AWB sunset. Took a few years before they finally gave up arguing on it and moved onto other things to fud about... like CAI LEO L1A1's
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Old September 28, 2017, 20:57   #111
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Originally Posted by slag View Post
I remember fuds arguing over LEO marked magazines and guns after the AWB sunset. Took a few years before they finally gave up arguing on it and moved onto other things to fud about... like CAI LEO L1A1's
Oh that was classic
started well before the end of the ban. Some vendors were buying restricted Colt ARs and tearing them down into parts and selling the marked lowers just dirty cheap because so many were screwball crazy regarding the markings
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Old September 28, 2017, 21:08   #112
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Oh that was classic
started well before the end of the ban. Some vendors were buying restricted Colt ARs and tearing them down into parts and selling the marked lowers just dirty cheap because so many were screwball crazy regarding the markings
oh yeah... my local FFL refused to transfer a stripped LEO marked Colt lower during the AWB. Finally he called ATF, and they were like WTF? its a stripped lower, no evil features on a stripped lower... lol.

Then there were the 12 round unmarked H&K MK23 mags that appeared around 2002 that all the fud's had a boner over. They just HAD to be illegal because the MK23 was introduced after the AWB started. Gawd...
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Old September 28, 2017, 21:24   #113
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The original M2 carbines were field converted M1's by US Marines. The USGI approved versions didn't come until much later. Hence the Marines proved that all M1 Carbines are readily converted in the field to fully automatic fire.

You really should know your history.
All the chest-thumping aside, I find this assertion dubious at best. You do not "field convert" without the necessary components. The heavier M2 bolt being one, but I'll allow a cyclic of 1200 rpm without it.

The critical component to the M2, is the trip, which prevents the hammer from closing until the bolt is locked. Without this, and with the free-floating firing pin, slamfires and an OOB detonation are not an if, but a when.

I've had a number of posty M2s, because with no modification to the host receiver, I could simply register trigger housings for $100 in parts and a $0.32 stamp.



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Old September 28, 2017, 22:02   #114
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All the chest-thumping aside, I find this assertion dubious at best. You do not "field convert" without the necessary components. The heavier M2 bolt being one, but I'll allow a cyclic of 1200 rpm without it.

The critical component to the M2, is the trip, which prevents the hammer from closing until the bolt is locked. Without this, and with the free-floating firing pin, slamfires and an OOB detonation are not an if, but a when.

I've had a number of posty M2s, because with no modification to the host receiver, I could simply register trigger housings for $100 in parts and a $0.32 stamp.
Pretty certain what SAFN is referring to was the field expediant conversions.

Those came out of the European theater, just involved cutting the tail of the sear off. The guns then slam fire at crazy high RPM and of course there is danger of an OOB discharge.
Allegedly these were mods that were being done by resistance fighters that were later copied by GIs. It was being done enough that the result was DoD getting Inland to come up with a safe alternative to the combat mods which became what we know as the M2.

Actual M2s came out late, like 45' before the made it to the field
same with the T3/M3 Carbines
The first use of the T3 was at Okinawa if I remember correctly.

Both saw some limited use in the Pacific

Much of this info was related to me back in the 70s by a retired USMC armorer that was a Carbine fanatic

Another little sidebar is the T3/M3 carbines were nearly all select fire
due to the rather primitive nature of the Infared scope the standard engagement procedure was short bursts. They are rather a pain in the ass to hit anything with at anything but very close range.

ATFE however does not regard T3 marked Carbines as NFA even though they all were. A ton of M3s were assembled during Korea using the universal mounting kit. Mostly on select fire guns but some on standard semi M1s
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Old September 28, 2017, 22:15   #115
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All the chest-thumping aside, I find this assertion dubious at best. You do not "field convert" without the necessary components. The heavier M2 bolt being one, but I'll allow a cyclic of 1200 rpm without it.

The critical component to the M2, is the trip, which prevents the hammer from closing until the bolt is locked. Without this, and with the free-floating firing pin, slamfires and an OOB detonation are not an if, but a when.

I've had a number of posty M2s, because with no modification to the host receiver, I could simply register trigger housings for $100 in parts and a $0.32 stamp.
IIRC the T17 and T18 kits to let soldiers easily field convert M1s into serviceable M2s in 1944 were based on what the Marines had done earlier but were select fire. I think the Marine conversion with the trip made them full auto only. I'll have to go try to find the War Baby books.

Also IIRC the biggest problem was there were no 30 round mags available for them at the time

Last edited by SAFN49; September 28, 2017 at 22:24. Reason: Mag problem
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Old September 28, 2017, 22:37   #116
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From the same brochure... another "non-transferable" rifle... Chicom semi auto AK, one that was illegal for us "civilians" due to the Bush41 ban. Also a Romanian "Dragunov", non-transferable due to the intact bayo lug and U.S. parts count.
You claimed that Bush-41 made something "illegal" for "us civilians" to own THEN you post a story about his Import Ban of '89 which was the enforcement of GCA of '86. It didn't BAN the ownership of anything. Only the IMPORT of non-sporting semi-automatics (this is one definition we need to get codified, which would gut GCA '86 and '68).

This is the very reason why I ask for the cite. There is far too much internet rumor and misinformation. The truth will set you free.
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Old September 28, 2017, 23:00   #117
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You claimed that Bush-41 made something "illegal" for "us civilians" to own THEN you post a story about his Import Ban of '89 which was the enforcement of GCA of '86. It didn't BAN the ownership of anything. Only the IMPORT of non-sporting semi-automatics (this is one definition we need to get codified, which would gut GCA '86 and '68).

This is the very reason why I ask for the cite. There is far too much internet rumor and misinformation. The truth will set you free.
I and others here lived through this shit and it was well before the Internet

This was one of many reasons Clinton waxed HW
at the time Bill Ruger's involvement was well known. Hell he went on 60 minutes wailing about high capacity magazines

The 86' McClure Volkmer act had no bans other than the Hughes Amendment. 922r was a new deal pushed by domestic industry and the Booooosh administration
It was covered quite well in the gun press of the period
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Old September 28, 2017, 23:27   #118
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I and others here lived through this shit and it was well before the Internet
I'm happy for you .... as did probably a majority of this forum. But that doesn't change facts.

FACT: Bush-41 instituted an Import Ban of non-sporting semi-automatic rifles. NOT a so-called Assault Weapons Ban.

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The 86' McClure Volkmer act had no bans other than the Hughes Amendment.
Which in itself is ONE HELL of a BAN ..... but in addition to the BAN of private ownership of machineguns made after May 1986 .... it also:

Made it unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of a firearm which, if assembled, would be prohibited (expanding on GCA '68) which led to Bush's EXORD banning the import (that missing enforcement thing again). Ironically it took the ATF until 2003 to ban the barrels.

Amended NFA to include within the definition of "machinegun" any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon to a machinegun. (Previous law included only a "combination of parts" within such definition.)

Kinda sounds like BANs to me. What do you think?????
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Old September 28, 2017, 23:49   #119
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You claimed that Bush-41 made something "illegal" for "us civilians" to own THEN you post a story about his Import Ban of '89 which was the enforcement of GCA of '86. It didn't BAN the ownership of anything. Only the IMPORT of non-sporting semi-automatics (this is one definition we need to get codified, which would gut GCA '86 and '68).

This is the very reason why I ask for the cite. There is far too much internet rumor and misinformation. The truth will set you free.
The 89 ban prohibited the importation of the LE style rifles. They only way CAI could import them, and sell them, was through the LE exemption.
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Old September 29, 2017, 00:51   #120
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I'm happy for you .... as did probably a majority of this forum. But that doesn't change facts.

FACT: Bush-41 instituted an Import Ban of non-sporting semi-automatic rifles. NOT a so-called Assault Weapons Ban.



Which in itself is ONE HELL of a BAN ..... but in addition to the BAN of private ownership of machineguns made after May 1986 .... it also:

Made it unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of a firearm which, if assembled, would be prohibited (expanding on GCA '68) which led to Bush's EXORD banning the import (that missing enforcement thing again). Ironically it took the ATF until 2003 to ban the barrels.

Amended NFA to include within the definition of "machinegun" any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon to a machinegun. (Previous law included only a "combination of parts" within such definition.)

Kinda sounds like BANs to me. What do you think?????


Pretty much semantics dude

The Bush ban like it or not set a list of certain features as non sporting
That later became most of the list Feinstein used to define AWs

btw, the barrel ban didn't occur until 2005 and then it's still just barrels in parts sets. If the barrel has never been assembled to a non sporting firearm it can still be imported freely as a replacement item. Where do you think KVAR gets their Bulgarian barrels. Bob Bowman has been importing Yugo MG42 and Polish SG43 barrels

Receivers were imported WELL past 86'
Imbel FALs, various foreign AK receivers for instance were going strong into the 90s.
Truth is we can likely import more Imbel receivers even today.

The conversion part deal was to save BATF the hassle of having to do individual determinations but even that didn't mean much. You can still buy partial TEK kits for Ruger 1022s, 80% back plates for glock conversions, etc.
All they did was to federalize what ATF maintained which was conversion kits in and of themselves were NFA regulated and since Hughes shut off new civilian NFA this was just a component of that. Really, you are overthinking a bunch of things in my opinion.

Remember we are talking 1986, back then we were still importing even Chinese AKs...they were not prohibited, all this stuff was still "sporting" until HW's insanity. Of course the real stupidity of it all was the 89' import ban being based solely in features was immediately circumvented.
Abortions like MAK 90s...model AK 1990
Maddi RMLs
There were versions of FALs, the SAR 4800 as well as Galils and HKs. Thing was not even the 94' AW act affected the import of them

For their part BATF really didn't go crazy with enforcement of 922r or the 94' act. Most folks just ignored the stupid laws and freely converted MAK 90s and Maddis back to proper military stocks. DOJ wasn't even interested in prosecuting violations...try to find anyone charged for 922r violations or under the AW ban. I'm sure there may have been some but I have yet to see a documented case.

Again it's a great deal like switchblades
thousands are being sold today in clear, blatant violation of standing Federal law. Thing is DOJ just don't give a hoot about that stupid law either. Back in the 70s it was different, folks went to Club Fed over interstate sales of automatic knives.
Today it's all No Shits Given.

Recreational weed is spreading through the States like wildfire
note even crazed anti MJ Jeff Sessions has dropped the mic on enforcing those Federal laws.

What I'm driving at is times have radically changed and in many ways for the better
that said there will always be doom and gloom types like Kev
it isn't all Black and White, there are many shades of Grey in enforcement
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Old September 29, 2017, 02:52   #121
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Oh REALLY!!!!! Where are these mythical beasts?????

Perhaps you will cite for us all their successes.

Perhaps you will cite for us YOUR successes in taking on the ATF.

Inquiring minds would like to know.

You do know that the standard "readily convertible" only applies to GCA, not NFA.




Your absurd "what ifs" doesn't change the law.

The NFA, as codified in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines a machinegun as:

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

Despite determining elements of “readily” for consideration, no clear standard exists. Individual courts choose which elements to consider as well as how to weight each element’s importance. With varying interpretations from court to court and the absence of a clear standard defining “readily,” compliance with the law is difficult at best.

So before you choose to readily restore, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
Successes? No. Attempts? Google Watson v Lynch and Hollis v Lynch. The convoluted arguments made in these cases stretch the limits of common sense and could only be made in a court of law. The 2nd amendment which specifically mentions the militia is to be ignored in the first part and only applies to keeping and bearing of arms for self defense because it shouldn't be viewed in its entirety. Then they use Miller to determine that things like sawed off shotguns weren't in use by the militia so therefore they belong in the NFA and anything in the NFA isn't covered by the 2nd Amendment. WTF? They completely ignore the intent of the Founding Fathers as if those old dead guys never wrote a fcuking thing about the reasoning behind the amendment in the first place...

The HPA is attached to a larger bill and is making its way through the process. A big cheese at the ATF wrote a white paper arguing for removing cans from the NFA as well as redefining what constitutes an SBR that would have been almost unbelievable just 4 years ago.

Constitutional carry is on the rise, suppressors are legal in more states than ever before, and while there are undoubted reversals, we are gaining more than we are losing. Then there is Mance v Holder, challenging the constitutionality of the prohibition on restricting handgun sales to out of state residents so all told, there are some powerful forces lined up to work in challenging BS laws.

I don't get why you're so all fired up at trying to provide evidence to back the govt line? You may have altruistic ideals but if by posting this stuff you think you're going to deter others from buying these weapons, the prices they are currently bringing on Gunbroker et al belie your position. I remember when these rifles went for about the same as a kit built gun sold for, sometimes for a little less. Now they are up there with the prices of Belgian imports so obviously no one with the coin for them really gives a shit what you are so ardently pushing.
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Old September 29, 2017, 09:14   #122
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Pretty much semantics dude

[]

What I'm driving at is times have radically changed and in many ways for the better
that said there will always be doom and gloom types like Kev
it isn't all Black and White, there are many shades of Grey in enforcement
SEMANTICS are the KEY .... in the one case you cited that you had success, how did you win??? SEMANTICS!!!!

That is the lynch pin of the Anti's play book. The have turned semantics on us constantly with great success.

Unfortunate our side always likes to take the moral high ground instead of playing this legal jockeying. We need to change that.

We need to take that page out of their play book and push for "definitions", like:
1) Sporting
2) Readily
3) Machinegun (could even get rid of the May '86 BS)
4) Bear
5) etc ....

WE could gut some of the most prolific gun control measures without repealing them. THEN we can dismantle them.

BUT rest assured, even though our greatest successes of late have been in the courts, they are no friend to our cause.

PS - I stand corrected on the date of the barrel ban, it was 2005, the receiver ban was 2003. I also like how you used SEMANTICS to show how we can get around those bans.

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Successes? No. Attempts? Google Watson v Lynch and Hollis v Lynch.
More on topic, read .....
US v one TRW Model M14, 7.62 Caliber Rifle from William K. Alverson, 441 F.3d 416 (6th Cir. 2006)
US v Woodlam, 527 F.2d 608 (6th Cir. 1976)
US v Seven Misc. Firearms, 503 F.Supp. 565 (D.D.C. 1980)
US v Smith, 477 F.2d 399 (8th Cir. 1973)
US v Catanzaro, 368 F.Supp 450 (D.Conn 1973)

With these all over the map interpretations of “readily” and no set definition from the ATF, no one can confidently say exactly when something is “readily" restored or converted into a machinegun.

Interestingly, Smith set the definition of "readily" as at least 8 hours work in a machine shop. That ABSURD definition would make a block of steel a machine gun.

Unfortunately Catanzaro had that VERY STANDARD used against him. He lost his case and did real time when Smith was used as precedent against him.

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Then there is Mance v Holder, challenging the constitutionality of the prohibition on restricting handgun sales to out of state residents so all told, there are some powerful forces lined up to work in challenging BS laws.
I hadn't realized Mance was decided. When did that happen?????

Mance is a clear example of an emotional wet dream.

For a better use of the courts, look to Wrenn v DC. We had a big win yesterday in Wrenn v DC, the en banc DC Cir refused to rehear the case. So the panel decision remains in that DC's requirement to show "good reason" to carry is unConstitutional.

In fact, if you want to make a REAL difference. Instead of chest thumping on how you are going to take on ATF in the courts, DONATE to the 2nd Amendment Foundation. They are making REAL progress in that arena.

You can add them to your Amazon Smiles and they get a percentage of everything you purchase .....

https://www.saf.org/
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Old September 29, 2017, 11:12   #123
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From the same brochure... another "non-transferable" rifle... Chicom semi auto AK, one that was illegal for us "civilians" due to the Bush41 ban. Also a Romanian "Dragunov", non-transferable due to the intact bayo lug and U.S. parts count.

About the Romanian manufactured PSL / FPK / Model 74 rifle, there is an important detail about the issued surplus guns that isn't mentioned here.
They have a "safety sear" installed which means the receivers were drilled for the third pin.
They were not select fire weapons.
Those rifles were not approved for import for domestic sales, but could be sold to Police and Military uses / contracts.
Century had to recall the PSL's that were Romanian built that had the third hole welded over at the factory and had been finished on the outside so it wasn't visible, since these were NFA firearms.
Later guns had new manufactured semi-auto receivers, some US made, some Romanian made.
Those were commonly sold over a period of years.
The Romanian issue guns were taken apart for kits, some of which Century later built on US receivers.

APEX received a lot of Romanian Model 74 (PSL) kits from another importer who had lost a bid to fill a US Gov't contract for those rifles.
They had sat in a FTZ located here in the USA until time came that they had to be sold/shipped back overseas or demilled into kits, cleared thru US Customs and allowed to enter commerce.
Those were the last of those type of kits we ever received.

Richard
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Old September 29, 2017, 11:22   #124
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SEMANTICS are the KEY .... in the one case you cited that you had success, how did you win??? SEMANTICS!!!!

That is the lynch pin of the Anti's play book. The have turned semantics on us constantly with great success.

Unfortunate our side always likes to take the moral high ground instead of playing this legal jockeying. We need to change that.

We need to take that page out of their play book and push for "definitions", like:
1) Sporting
2) Readily
3) Machinegun (could even get rid of the May '86 BS)
4) Bear
5) etc ....

WE could gut some of the most prolific gun control measures without repealing them. THEN we can dismantle them.

BUT rest assured, even though our greatest successes of late have been in the courts, they are no friend to our cause.

PS - I stand corrected on the date of the barrel ban, it was 2005, the receiver ban was 2003. I also like how you used SEMANTICS to show how we can get around those bans.



More on topic, read .....
US v one TRW Model M14, 7.62 Caliber Rifle from William K. Alverson, 441 F.3d 416 (6th Cir. 2006)
US v Woodlam, 527 F.2d 608 (6th Cir. 1976)
US v Seven Misc. Firearms, 503 F.Supp. 565 (D.D.C. 1980)
US v Smith, 477 F.2d 399 (8th Cir. 1973)
US v Catanzaro, 368 F.Supp 450 (D.Conn 1973)

With these all over the map interpretations of “readily” and no set definition from the ATF, no one can confidently say exactly when something is “readily" restored or converted into a machinegun.

Interestingly, Smith set the definition of "readily" as at least 8 hours work in a machine shop. That ABSURD definition would make a block of steel a machine gun.

Unfortunately Catanzaro had that VERY STANDARD used against him. He lost his case and did real time when Smith was used as precedent against him.



I hadn't realized Mance was decided. When did that happen?????

Mance is a clear example of an emotional wet dream.

For a better use of the courts, look to Wrenn v DC. We had a big win yesterday in Wrenn v DC, the en banc DC Cir refused to rehear the case. So the panel decision remains in that DC's requirement to show "good reason" to carry is unConstitutional.

In fact, if you want to make a REAL difference. Instead of chest thumping on how you are going to take on ATF in the courts, DONATE to the 2nd Amendment Foundation. They are making REAL progress in that arena.

You can add them to your Amazon Smiles and they get a percentage of everything you purchase .....

https://www.saf.org/
It's not really the "antis" as much as has been the poorly written products of our Viet Kongress.

To me, these fights are a huge waste of effort
There is a much broader sword at our disposal
The moment SCOTUS ruled that indeed the 2nd represented an individual's RKBA the game changed dramatically
See the problem for the wannabe takers is nearly ALL Federal firearms law is based in Tax Code, the FETs that were unlawfully applied toward firearms and ammunition under Woodrow Wilson.

Thing was until somewhat recently the takers claimed the the 2nd represented a State's right to have a militia. Like I said, that changed leaving asstards like Schumer and Feinstein forced to recognize it as no different then say the Right to Vote

Well guess what, the Feds and the Supremes killed Poll Taxes decades ago didn't they, it was found unconstitutional to use ANY tax to restrict ANY Free Citizens access to the Vote.

Want to destroy all Federal Gun Control ?
Compel the 2nd to be treated the same as other basic rights and liberties and strip the unlawful taxation off that liberty
Those are the feet of clay here.

No FETs, no regulation or power to enforce...it all goes away like so much dust in the wind, the NFA, the GCA, all of it.

Problem is finding Standing
the obvious cases concern classes of prohibited persons
well not a one of the great Gun Rights Orgs have much of an interest in supporting those cases
Perhaps the perfect storm would be someone who was dishonorably discharged for faggotry and are denied RKBA under the GCA of 68' however it must be fought on whether the taxation basis is lawful.

I've been debating this since High School with folks, none of them including my Law Professors were ever able to overcome my basic points except to argue the 2nd wasn't a right of the individual. My return foil was if you do maintain that then every right enumerated after the 2nd becomes a States right as well.
Known several US Attornies who were finally compelled to agree my arguments were indeed valid but it's scary stuff even to most pro RKBA peoples who favor restrictions on just who can lawfully possess, vote, whatever under our Constitutional Republic.
I simply posit that it is All Free Citizens regardless of past conditions of servitude just as is plainly stated in Amendment 13 and 14

The Smith definition is insanity
yeah eight hours in the ATFE machineshop with a crew of highly talented Men at play on millions of dollars worth of machinery
In eight hours a crew like that can turn out likely a hundred STEN MkII tubes can't they.
How many UZI bolts could they slot in eight short hours
How many DIAS or SWD pattern auto connectors...

With open bolts you don't even have to modify the firearms in many cases, simply use lower impulse ammunition to short cycle the weapon
Remember the Shoe String MG deal ?
Blame me for that one, I was the one who put it out on early MG boards back in the 90s as an exemplar of the fallicies involved. That was a combat mod being done in WWII, my Vet neighbor as a kid schooled me on it with my first Garand in the early 70s, bump fire with the M1 was another. Just rest the Garand butt up against your flexed abdomen and blaze away.

Anyways nearly all of us here are somewhat on the same side to one degree or another.

Yeah the barrel deal is goofy. What was banned from import under GW were parts kit barrels. This was an effort to make it more difficult to build illicit tube based SMgs but all it did was to create a new Cottage Industry in producing domestic clone barrels

The deal is since the sunset of the AW act military pattern rifles are again sporting arms so brand new foreign barrels can be imported under a sporting use statement. That's how both KVAR and Bowman among others are importing their offerings.
It's not semantics or a loophole, words mean things friend
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Old September 29, 2017, 11:51   #125
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To me, these fights are a huge waste of effort
There is a much broader sword at our disposal
The moment SCOTUS ruled that indeed the 2nd represented an individual's RKBA the game changed dramatically
See the problem for the wannabe takers is nearly ALL Federal firearms law is based in Tax Code, the FETs that were unlawfully applied toward firearms and ammunition under Woodrow Wilson.
See I am a combined arms guy, going up the middle with no supporting action rarely succeeds. I believe in the tactics we used to defeat the insurgency, you keep cutting the heads off, rip the guts out and knock down the foundation. Any two should succeed in destroying gun control for generations to come.

You concentrate on the foundation and I will continue to rip the guts out. In my opinion, Heller and MacDonald should have done that. BUT there seems to be wholesale ignorance of those on the grounds of semantics. Wrenn could be the next Heller.

NFA is a whole other matter as you pointed out. It is more solid and another SCOTUS ruling as to the individual right won't affect NFA. That is THE big problem with Hollis and Watson, they are going for the throat of NFA. Ain't going to happen. GCA '68 and its little pain in the ass cousin FOPA (aka GCA '86) are far more vulnerable.

Mance is fanatic masturbation. The courts would have to uproot the interstate commerce clause to have a chance with Mance.

Lastly, I agree the Militia preamble is dead six ways to Sunday. If Heller and MacDonald didn't kill it, the 14th Amendment's equal protections clause sure did. No "right" can be reserved to only those based on membership in a group. Again, we refuse to take such tactics because it is seen as turning our backs on that higher moral argument, YET the results would be the same.
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Old September 29, 2017, 11:51   #126
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About the Romanian manufactured PSL / FPK / Model 74 rifle, there is an important detail about the issued surplus guns that isn't mentioned here.
They have a "safety sear" installed which means the receivers were drilled for the third pin.
They were not select fire weapons.
Those rifles were not approved for import for domestic sales, but could be sold to Police and Military uses / contracts.
Century had to recall the PSL's that were Romanian built that had the third hole welded over at the factory and had been finished on the outside so it wasn't visible, since these were NFA firearms.
Later guns had new manufactured semi-auto receivers, some US made, some Romanian made.
Those were commonly sold over a period of years.
The Romanian issue guns were taken apart for kits, some of which Century built on US receivers.

Richard
Do you recall the huge but rather quiet drama over the Zastava Yugo M76 rifles SOG was selling ?

those all had the bad third pin as well, SOG sold a few hundred before ATFE crapped the universal diaper forcing SOG to do a huge recall cutting the rifles up for sale as parts kits.

Not sure how successful the recall was as I have seen a couple crop up at shows.
I know back in the late 90s an ATF officer confided to me that they had only managed to trace less than 30% of the Street Sweepers...plenty of folks just were not and are not aware they became NFA under Clinton.

Not certain of status of 3 pin FPKs, like the L1s they were sold to individual LE as well and were NEVER select fire weapons. The main difference I suspect is that the Bureau had NEVER allowed 3 pin AK pattern rifles to be sold as anything but NFA while many sear cut FAL/inch guns had already came in.
Well unless they were being transferred to individual coppers. Then the third pin didn't apply I guess.

Retired cop buddy had a 3 pin FPK. He was ready to cut it up, instead I convinced him to sell it to a young Deputy who craved it with his old paperwork and a bill of sale as well as a fully briefed understanding of the potential liabilities in selling it to the public particularly in this era of fuddly types.
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Old September 29, 2017, 12:07   #127
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Do you recall the huge but rather quiet drama over the Zastava Yugo M76 rifles SOG was selling ?

those all had the bad third pin as well, SOG sold a few hundred before ATFE crapped the universal diaper forcing SOG to do a huge recall cutting the rifles up for sale as parts kits.

Not sure how successful the recall was as I have seen a couple crop up at shows.
I know back in the late 90s an ATF officer confided to me that they had only managed to trace less than 30% of the Street Sweepers...plenty of folks just were not and are not aware they became NFA under Clinton.

Not certain of status of 3 pin FPKs, like the L1s they were sold to individual LE as well and were NEVER select fire weapons. The main difference I suspect is that the Bureau had NEVER allowed 3 pin AK pattern rifles to be sold as anything but NFA while many sear cut FAL/inch guns had already came in.
Well unless they were being transferred to individual coppers. Then the third pin didn't apply I guess.

Retired cop buddy had a 3 pin FPK. He was ready to cut it up, instead I convinced him to sell it to a young Deputy who craved it with his old paperwork and a bill of sale as well as a fully briefed understanding of the potential liabilities in selling it to the public particularly in this era of fuddly types.
I remember when that business of the SOG supplied M76's happened.
They were advertised in SGN and then shortly after came the recall notices.
I believe a similar event just ran its course with the Galil ACE.
I didn't have any direct knowledge of those events, just what I saw posted publicly.
Century had no knowledge that the factory at CUGIR had welded up the third holes and then finished that work over, concealing the welds.
As soon as that discovery was posted on a firearms forum, along with pictures of the inside of the receiver (showing evidence of the work) Century acted.
They stopped sales, recovered guns from distributors, determined the serial numbers effected and published the recall notice. They also formally informed ATF and advised of their actions to remove these guns from commerce.
They had pallets of them stacked up in the warehouse in Vermont.
Those receivers were destroyed.

Richard
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Old September 29, 2017, 13:09   #128
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See I am a combined arms guy, going up the middle with no supporting action rarely succeeds. I believe in the tactics we used to defeat the insurgency, you keep cutting the heads off, rip the guts out and knock down the foundation. Any two should succeed in destroying gun control for generations to come.

You concentrate on the foundation and I will continue to rip the guts out. In my opinion, Heller and MacDonald should have done that. BUT there seems to be wholesale ignorance of those on the grounds of semantics. Wrenn could be the next Heller.

NFA is a whole other matter as you pointed out. It is more solid and another SCOTUS ruling as to the individual right won't affect NFA. That is THE big problem with Hollis and Watson, they are going for the throat of NFA. Ain't going to happen. GCA '68 and its little pain in the ass cousin FOPA (aka GCA '86) are far more vulnerable.

Mance is fanatic masturbation. The courts would have to uproot the interstate commerce clause to have a chance with Mance.

Lastly, I agree the Militia preamble is dead six ways to Sunday. If Heller and MacDonald didn't kill it, the 14th Amendment's equal protections clause sure did. No "right" can be reserved to only those based on membership in a group. Again, we refuse to take such tactics because it is seen as turning our backs on that higher moral argument, YET the results would be the same.
Guilty as Charged.
I see this as a very basic Tax Code argument
others want to maintain a front, a holding action rather than to end the actual War...just a constant series of little battles to maintain a certain staus quo'
Me ?
I want to burn it all down.

As I have told antis many times if you want Gun Control then move to strip the 2nd from the Constitution, workarounds affect the entire Bill of Rights which to me has always been of a bit greater import than the ability of retards to blaze away.

You present it like that most intelligent liberals start to get it. Anything less could damage the 13ths prohibition on Slavery for example. Trust me, that one really messes up the left in general.

Liberal gal I have agued with for many years recently asked me how I felt about AntiFA gunning up. Told her I supported all that so long as they didn't use their arms against other citizens whose value system differed from theirs.
She was rather messed up with my view, just figured I would oppose their RKBA...I was a bit insulted.
I don't care if you claim to be Communist and Wiccan
If you are a Free Citizen you share certain universal rights with other citizens PERIOD !!!

Define Free Citizen ?
Anyone who is not under any condition of Custody
Prison, Parole or Probation negate Freedom and are allowed as a condition of lawful involuntary servidtude under the 13th as does incompetency.
This isn't Rocket Science. Were you such a loon that someone has guardianship of your affairs as an adult ?
No, you don't get to Vote, own guns, etc
it's all lawful if it's adjudcated through the public court system

Conversely you can't just snip away ones right in an in servanti viti manner under our system of constitutional law.

A great part of the problem with the LE only shit was created in the chambers of Kongress...weapons regulation, etc has for decades incorporated cop exceptions which ATF is forced to comply under.
Back in the day this was seen as basic inter agency/bureau law enforcement courtesy. Still rather is.

Cop lobbies managed to get LE placed high
For example retired coppers can carry even in New York City without permit...Federal Law
Cops are not bound by import bans or restrictions
look at the armor piercing projectile ban...
Then there is the business of LE lives having a higher standard. You will do more time for killing a police K9 than homeless in many States. Sorry, that's really messed up. My pops was really torn years ago. Under Federal Law even my own life was protected as he was Federal LE. He never did and still does not like this status, he's in his mid 80s now.

btw...the NFA IS A TAX ACT pure and simple and was designed to prevent all but the uber Rich from certain weapons
in 1935 two hundred bucks bought a small farm afterall.

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Old September 29, 2017, 13:39   #129
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I remember when that business of the SOG supplied M76's happened.
They were advertised in SGN and then shortly after came the recall notices.
I believe a similar event just ran its course with the Galil ACE.
I didn't have any direct knowledge of those events, just what I saw posted publicly.
Century had no knowledge that the factory at CUGIR had welded up the third holes and then finished that work over, concealing the welds.
As soon as that discovery was posted on a firearms forum, along with pictures of the inside of the receiver (showing evidence of the work) Century acted.
They stopped sales, recovered guns from distributors, determined the serial numbers effected and published the recall notice. They also formally informed ATF and advised of their actions to remove these guns from commerce.
They had pallets of them stacked up in the warehouse in Vermont.
Those receivers were destroyed.

Richard
Yeah...

Most of these event came to fruition due to fuddly types going into tantrum mode on the Web. That's the backstory to the SOG M76 rifles at least and the same is true of the welded up 3 pin recievers on not just Romanians but Chinese and guns out of Egypt.

There are idiots trolling the web looking for all sketchy buys posting up links on forums asking "is this legal"
I just don't see LEO L1s as all that sketchy
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Old September 29, 2017, 14:37   #130
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Yeah...

Most of these event came to fruition due to fuddly types going into tantrum mode on the Web. That's the backstory to the SOG M76 rifles at least and the same is true of the welded up 3 pin receivers on not just Romanians but Chinese and guns out of Egypt.

There are idiots trolling the web looking for all sketchy buys posting up links on forums asking "is this legal"
I just don't see LEO L1s as all that sketchy
Remember what happened with the Akins accelerator?
I was SO CLOSE to buying one (for the M1919) when they were shut down.
The company received approval for the product from the ATF, and had gone into full production with many products already delivered to the consumer.
ONE guy set about to prove it wasn't legal.
Went to every forum and caused a whole bunch of people to submit the units they owned to ATF Tech Division (for approval letters) or make phone calls / write ins with questions regarding the legality.
The ATF withdrew approval and made the manufacturing company contact and recall one part from the Akins accelerator device owners.
I believe the investors in Akins sued that ONE individual for their losses.
I don't know how that turned out.

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Old September 29, 2017, 17:15   #131
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Remember what happened with the Akins accelerator?
I was SO CLOSE to buying one (for the M1919) when they were shut down.
The company received approval for the product from the ATF, and had gone into full production with many products already delivered to the consumer.
ONE guy set about to prove it wasn't legal.
Went to every forum and caused a whole bunch of people to submit the units they owned to ATF Tech Division (for approval letters) or make phone calls / write ins with questions regarding the legality.
The ATF withdrew approval and made the manufacturing company contact and recall one part from the Akins accelerator device owners.
I believe the investors in Akins sued that ONE individual for their losses.
I don't know how that turned out.

Richard
More to it...

Bowers and clan had ATFE clearance for the 1022 version when they started tooling up for a SKS rendition without ATFE sanction.

Flip side you had serious dicks back then, Eric Lawson wasn't the only lawyer doing this horseshit, Jim Bardwell was huge into it to
Lawson requested a similar letter to what the Bowers Boys were sent

well Bowers chickenshitted, he split from the company and screwed a whole bunch of folks in the process.

Lawson was a great deal like Kev

Do you know why Accelerator stocks became NFA ?
A stupid reset coil spring
That led to the slidefire stocks currently on the market.
Under Booooosh a damn spring was seen as a conversion part.

Think about that...
Slidefires came out in what, during the Obama era ?

Yeah I detest Obama, that said his administration was rather light handed regarding RKBA contrasted to draft dodging GW and other wimpish elites.
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Old September 29, 2017, 22:09   #132
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Most of the century import marked guns that I have researched came out of India. I'm not an expert, but that's the best that I've come up with so far.
Back on topic. Yes "some" of them came out of India. The Indian 1A1's and the 1A1 receivers with British parts kits screwed on to them did come from India. It appears that CAI did import Brit kits into India to have them screwed on to Indian receivers so they could be imported into the US through the LE exemption and be legally resold afterwards.

Just an observation.
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Old September 29, 2017, 22:27   #133
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[QUOTE=SAFN49;4483745]
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Bush-41 had no ban on firearms sales to us "civilians". Which ban are you referring?[/QUOTE

Yes he did in 1989. He banned these evil semi auto rifles

Since these were not transferable I wonder if I can own them?
.......wasn't the 1989 "ban" on imports of "evil assault weapons" not on ownership/sale etc. I believe (and this is from a great distance) that it was the 1994 Clinton AWB that resulted in the restrictions on the sale/transfer of "assault weapons" ? Hence the Post 94 Pre 2004 versions of the AR15s you picture ? If I am not mistaken the 1989 legislation did not at all effect firearms manufactured in the US but only those imported.
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Old September 29, 2017, 23:15   #134
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.......wasn't the 1989 "ban" on imports of "evil assault weapons" not on ownership/sale etc. I believe (and this is from a great distance) that it was the 1994 Clinton AWB that resulted in the restrictions on the sale/transfer of "assault weapons" ? Hence the Post 94 Pre 2004 versions of the AR15s you picture ? If I am not mistaken the 1989 legislation did not at all effect firearms manufactured in the US but only those imported.
correct
until 94' all of the BS was on Imports
post 89 anything for public sales had to be defeatured if imported.
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Old September 30, 2017, 13:13   #135
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I don't agree with you on what Bowers did. Tom Bowers is a straight up guy and he did everything he could to salvage the deal.
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Old September 30, 2017, 14:59   #136
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Back on topic. Yes "some" of them came out of India. The Indian 1A1's and the 1A1 receivers with British parts kits screwed on to them did come from India. It appears that CAI did import Brit kits into India to have them screwed on to Indian receivers so they could be imported into the US through the LE exemption and be legally resold afterwards.

Just an observation.
My observations concur, with the addition of some Aussie rifles that serial numbers suggest Indian contract.
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Old September 30, 2017, 17:07   #137
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*So, ...where did Century buy the Law Enforcement Only L1A1's From???
Anyone here have an account at "Canadian Gun Nutz":
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/

I believe there is a couple of "regulars" on that forum who know the details of that L1A1 deal that Century imported.
I even believe that some of the L1A1 kits were built up on Imbel receivers by Century Arms of Canada.
They were imported as sporting rifles with no flash hider and the thumbhole stock, lower stamped "Made in Canada"

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Old September 30, 2017, 17:38   #138
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Originally Posted by APEXgunparts View Post
Anyone here have an account at "Canadian Gun Nutz":
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/

I believe there is a couple of "regulars" on that forum who know the details of that L1A1 deal that Century imported.
I even believe that some of the L1A1 kits were built up on Imbel receivers by Century Arms of Canada.
They were imported as sporting rifles with no flash hider and the thumbhole stock, lower stamped "Made in Canada"

Richard
Ones I have seen were stamped very lightly on the lower right side of the magazine well "made in Canada" with "L1A1 Cal .308 CAI-St. Alb VT on the right rear of the upper. No Imbel markings but Imbel receivers

These to the best of my knowledge were the first L1A1 sporters brought in by Century, early 90s vintage.

The Canadian assembled L1s were much better builds than anything they assembled Stateside.
Rumor was the Canadian crew was largely ex Canadian armorers & retired arsenal employees working out of the Montreal warehouse.
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Old September 30, 2017, 18:56   #139
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Originally Posted by SAFN49 View Post
.......wasn't the 1989 "ban" on imports of "evil assault weapons" not on ownership/sale etc. I believe (and this is from a great distance) that it was the 1994 Clinton AWB that resulted in the restrictions on the sale/transfer of "assault weapons" ? Hence the Post 94 Pre 2004 versions of the AR15s you picture ? If I am not mistaken the 1989 legislation did not at all effect firearms manufactured in the US but only those imported.
The 1994 AWB was a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms it defined as assault weapons, as well as certain ammunition magazines it defined as "large capacity."

No restriction on the sale or transfer of pre-1994 "assault weapons" or magazines.

The 1989 ban was an executive order declaring a permanent ban on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic "assault rifles", it had no effect on sales and transfer on existing firearms nor did it "outlaw" any features, as it was not a law. It is still in force today.

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Old September 30, 2017, 19:05   #140
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Old October 04, 2017, 07:20   #141
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I realize after a reread that Kev and GP already addressed what I posted last night. So cleaning this up in the interest of dead horses.
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Old November 17, 2017, 19:08   #142
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I am the OP & just wanted to finish this thread. I received my 2 Post Sample L1a1's today. They are pretty nice, but one was cruddy. They are both BSA's & were not cobbled together as some have suggested. They are marked "BSA RASF Made in England" on the barrels with Century's Import Marks. I am very pleased. I have Metric Safety Sears that I believe will fit, but I think I have to remove the Ejector Block to install them. Thanks!
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Old November 17, 2017, 19:24   #143
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Originally Posted by SPEEDGUNNER View Post
Century Arms imported FAL rifles BY THE PALLET back in the day. They bought them surplus by the pound and they were stacked like cordwood on pallets when they were delivered to their warehouse in Vermont. Rumor was they were detritus from the war in the Falkland Islands and they were comprised of surplus Argy FAL's (full auto capable) and Brit L1A1's (semi only). Century, being the enterprising bunch they are culled out a few of the semi L1A1 rifles and offered them to individual LEO's so as to not run the risk of raising the ire of the ATF and shutting down the entire Angry Beaver operation that has brought us all the wonderful rifles we see today (good and bad). The beavers, as we know, were busy disassembling functional surplus rifles and mixing the parts with receivers of dubious quality so as to make we collectors head spin as we try to make sense of it all. Hence, the L1A1's made it through as complete rifles and are the closest thing you can have to a genuine Commonwealth battle rifle here in the States.
Actually, these "are" the real thing!
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Old November 18, 2017, 10:30   #144
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Originally Posted by alnukem View Post
I am the OP & just wanted to finish this thread. I received my 2 Post Sample L1a1's today. They are pretty nice, but one was cruddy. They are both BSA's & were not cobbled together as some have suggested. They are marked "BSA RASF Made in England" on the barrels with Century's Import Marks. I am very pleased. I have Metric Safety Sears that I believe will fit, but I think I have to remove the Ejector Block to install them. Thanks!
You do not need to remove the e-block to install the sear. If you need broad-arrow marked sears, I have plenty.
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