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Old October 26, 2017, 15:00   #1
badzero
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Anyone know about the 450 Bushmaster?

I just found out that the Iowa deer laws got an update and you are now able to use a straight wall rifle cartridge. So I can finally build a big bore ar, I've been meaning to for years but just couldn't justify it to myself. Now I have a valid reason. Anyone familiar with them? I know a little but what works best as far as barrel length/twist, gas length? best bullet weight? Best price on barrels and bolt,etc.

thanks
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Old October 26, 2017, 16:07   #2
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From American Rifleman article on the three most popular big bore AR cartridges 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowolf.

Quote:
.450 Bushmaster
This is the smallest of the thumpers, with a bullet diameter of .452". It uses a rebated rim cartridge case based on the .284 Win. case.
That is what I know as have not built any of the three. Have worked on and fired the 458 SOCOM and found it a nice novelty if need it. May want to look at some of Gman's elk kill pictures with his little 6.8 spc II carbine. Why started playing with them and just finished build number twelve and starting on the next for a bakers dozen but back to big thumpers.

Quote:
.458 SOCOM
The .458 SOCOM was developed for military applications after the fighting in Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1993. That battle left a lot of participants disappointed in the performance of the 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridge, and they wanted some serious, .45-70 Govít-class thumping power for the M16 and M4 rifles. Itís worth considering that if the guys in the fight donít think the .223 is enough gun, perhaps we should re-evaluate its use for hunting such animals as hogs, bear, moose and elkógame that often runs bigger and tougher than the average man.

One big advantage with that .458 diameter is there is a wide selection of rifle bullets on the market. This is reflected in the multiple factory load options, and it opens a lot of doors for handloaders. One of the best bullets is the 300-gr. TTSX that Barnes developed specifically for this cartridge.

After testing two different Rock River .458 SOCOM carbines, the CAR A-4 and the new X-1, I have been very impressed with the accuracy. Both shot right around the 1 minute-of-angle mark with just about any ammunition I tried. It might have a military background, but the .458 SOCOM is a big-game cartridge capable of taking anything that walks in North America.
Entire article is here:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ar-cartridges/

Writer liked all three and believe he presented a well balanced and fair evaluation of each cartridge. Something about straight wall cartridges in semi-autos has seemed to induce extraction issues but was not mentioned in this article and as mentioned do not have any experience with but the 458 SOCOM and if building a thumper would probably build on that cartridge just because of bullet selection.

Lots of Google info on all of the choices especially over at barf dot com. The one thing that would attract me to 450 Bushmaster is original design came from Colonel Jeff Cooper. A 450 Bushmaster AR in hand and a 1911 on your hip would be Jeff Cooper compliant. Please don't discuss this repeatedly till I get an idea to sip the kool-aid. Last thing I need is to go back to having a dozen different AR 15 cartridges in the barn. ;-)
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Old October 27, 2017, 21:51   #3
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While Iíve not used or built an AR15 in 450 Bushmaster, I believe what the OP is looking at with this is to build an AR that he could use for deer hunting and in order for it to be legal the cartridge must be a straight wall case such as the 45-70.

That being said, the 458 Socom is eliminated because itís a bottleneck round. Looking at the 450 Bushmaster, it looks like it would work very well as a 250 to 300 yard deer round. The only real draw back to the round I see is that being .452 inches in diameter it is limited by bullet selection and weight.

I say build it.
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Old October 27, 2017, 23:10   #4
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The bad part is I always have to build 2, my 12 yr old follows in my footsteps. We're going to hit the gunshow tomorrow and see if we can get lucky. I figured I'll order what I still need when I get home. Kind of torn between 16 and 20 inch, but I'm leaning toward 16, where we hunt the thick woods and hills make a 200 yd shot an almost never occurance. I've really been wanting a socom since they came out, just couldn't justify another caliber. But now since you can hunt deer with a rifle I have a reason for a big bore ar. Sadly the socom is out of the running. It's too bad the politicians had to put rules on what cartridge you could use.
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Old October 28, 2017, 00:07   #5
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Check out the 458 socom test at about 1:20. I think that would just about do it for whatever you were trying to shoot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TA19Y0cUXes
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Old October 28, 2017, 05:39   #6
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Is Iowa putting a limit on the case length? Here in lower Michigan,they allowed the use of straight walled cartridges,but up to 1.8 inches in case length. Knocks some out of the options department. The .450 Bushy is getting popular around here. CVA makes them in their single shot "Scout" line. I have a Scout in 44 mag and like it. Were I to jump to the .450 bushy,I'd probably go the AR action route. Uppers are running $500-600ish..
Supposedly on an AR,the recoil is less than a 20 ga.
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Old October 28, 2017, 06:55   #7
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Same requirements here as well as having an approved list of calibers that can be used.
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Old October 28, 2017, 09:59   #8
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I'm hearing claims it's effective to 200+ yards,without a lot of drop.Some say 300. Down here,you get the long shots over plowed fields and whatnot,but up north,the shots seem a lot less yardage,in the woods and swamps. Yeah,there are fields up there,but not where I'm hunting. I can't think of any shot I've ever taken at a deer that was more than maybe 150 yards.
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Old October 28, 2017, 10:16   #9
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I have two friends who use the round for hunting deer. It is an excellent round for under 200 rounds and under. Where we hunt, that is about our max distance. I am planning a build for myself!

The round does have a lively kick, in case that is an issue for you.
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Old October 28, 2017, 13:00   #10
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According to jbm ballistics the Remington core lokt is fairly flat out to 200. You'd have about 8.5" drop in the 250 gr projectile. After 200 it starts dropping about 2 inches every 10 yards. Energy is not much lower than a 308
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Old October 28, 2017, 22:33   #11
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Well the actual way to proceed is to obtain an administrative ruling
Most of the AR based wildcats were NEVER intended as handgun rounds were they

I mean heck you can build a "handgun" chambered in .50 BMG, is it a "handgun" round then ?

not sure what the OAL standard is in IA however with a properly worded letter many things might slide by like .300 BO as it's not a handgun round.

Another thought would be .44 auto mag. Brass is dirt cheap being fashioned from .308/.30-06. Slugs are dead common too and it's already on the IA list

"Only the following center-fire cartridges may be used:
.357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .375 Winchester, .38 Super, .40 S&W, .401 Powermag, 10 mm Auto, .41 Remington Magnum, .41 Action Express, .44 S&W Special, .44 Remington Magnum, .44 Automag, .444 Marlin, .445 Super Mag, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Super Mag, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Silhouette, .451 Detonics, .454 Casull, .45-70 Govt., .460 Rowland, .460 S&W Mag, .475 Widley Magnum, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .50 Linebaugh, .50 Beowulf and .500 S&W Mag."

The NEW statute says Section 481A.48,Code2017,i shall be amended that :

"NEW SUBSECTION.6.The commission shall adopt rules pursuant to chapter 17A allowing the use of straight wall cartridge rifles to hunt deer as follows:
a. A straight wall cartridge rifle may be used......
b. A straight wall cartridge rifle that is allowed pursuant to this subsection shall be of the same caliber and use the same straight wall ammunition as is allowed for use in a pistol or revolver for hunting deer as provided in subsection 5 . In addition, the commission shall provide, by rule, for the use of straight wall ammunition under this subsection that meets ballistics specifications similar to the requirements for straight wall ammunition allowed for use in a pistol or revolver for hunting deer as provided in subsection 5." HE475

yeah you can hunt with a damn .40 S&W in Iowa and uppers for those are already out there and as well for the .45ACP
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Old October 29, 2017, 10:43   #12
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Yesterday rained like crazy all day so spent morning through afternoon in gun room and reloading room. Realized was running low on 454 Casul Magnum ammo and while pilfering the big bore safe found a Marlin lever gun in 444 had forgotten even owning. Inventoried 357, 41, 44 and 454 magnum ammunition along with 444 and 357 Maximum. Ended up pulling the 454 and 44 mag turrets off the shelf and did a run of each. Ran the 454 first and loaded 250 rounds of 325 grain flat nose gas check bullets and then 100 rounds of 300 grain jacketed flat nose. When swapped over to 44 magnum was odd how small they felt. More I looked at the 444 and my 45-70's more interesting a big bore AR became. I can't drink the kool-aid again...
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Old October 29, 2017, 18:41   #13
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Just do it, you know you need a couple.
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Old October 29, 2017, 20:48   #14
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450 Bushmaster has been incredibly accurate out mine and two different friends' guns. The Hornady ammo is much better than the Remington, and the components are available to replicate it.

I have a Bushmaster 16" and a 11.5" SBR with a Tromix barrel in 450.

The other neat cartridge that makes the 450 look weak is the 45 Raptor.

Although a more niche cartridge, it has about 400 fps or so on the 450. It also runs at higher pressures, and with a case length of 1.8 inches, fits in a 308 AR. Mine are built on Aero M5 receiver sets. An 18" and, if the BATF approves it, a 12.5 inch. Both are Liberty barrels made by Satern.
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Old October 29, 2017, 22:48   #15
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does it feel like shooting a 12 gage?
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Old October 30, 2017, 20:33   #16
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I've heard more like a 20 ga. I'll let you know as soon as I get one together.
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Old October 31, 2017, 07:07   #17
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My issue with big bore AR's is low recoil is primary feature of the rifle. 6.8 is my AR hammer especially now that have figured out the recipe for sending 130 grain to 200 grain bullets down range accurately. (Bison 1:7 twist any length or ARP 20" 3R barrels) Bullets like 110 grain Barnes Triple Shocks and Hornady 120 grain SST at 2,650 fps are not a 45 caliber sledgehammer but hit hard and recoil is unnoticed with suppressor on rifle.

Was on edge of pushing button on a 6mm x 22 Nosler reamer and found a 270 AR barrel guy had never built. Should arrive this week and sends 130 grain .277 bullets down range at 2,800 fps. Can't wait to try the 129 grain Barnes LRX with a B.C. of 0.463 and stays supersonic past 500 yards. Have a pair of rifled slug guns that launch 50 Caliber sabot slugs like freight trains but will admit they are not near as handy as an AR. Promised myself no more AR 15 cartridges to feed but went looking for a long range wildcat anyway. Was stuck between 6mm x 22 Nosler and 6.5 x 6.8 when found the 270 AR barrel. I can't drink another flavor of kool-aid... Anyone have a spare big bore barrel they don't need?
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Old November 01, 2017, 12:30   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortround View Post
450 Bushmaster has been incredibly accurate out mine and two different friends' guns. The Hornady ammo is much better than the Remington, and the components are available to replicate it.

I have a Bushmaster 16" and a 11.5" SBR with a Tromix barrel in 450.

The other neat cartridge that makes the 450 look weak is the 45 Raptor.

Although a more niche cartridge, it has about 400 fps or so on the 450. It also runs at higher pressures, and with a case length of 1.8 inches, fits in a 308 AR. Mine are built on Aero M5 receiver sets. An 18" and, if the BATF approves it, a 12.5 inch. Both are Liberty barrels made by Satern.


What are you using for mags?
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Old November 01, 2017, 13:43   #19
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I have seen ASC magazines specifically advertised for 450 bushmaster in five (20 round loaded single stack with caliber specific follower) and nine (30 round loaded single stack with caliber specific follower) round capacity. Lancer has a five round. Shop both brands often so see most of their items. Utube has several videos to modify a 5.56 follower if don't want to pay triple or quadruple price just for a different follower. Guy on fleabay sells followers for $9.95.

https://www.ebay.com/p/Magazine-Foll...ber/1531898506
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Old November 01, 2017, 20:43   #20
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Thanks, been playing around with what I have on hand for mags tonight, the Lancers are random on whether the stay loaded or not. Had 2 do an auto unload on my bench as I was thinking I had an answer. $30 a mag for a factory one just pisses me off, found a half dozen c products as mags in the pile which seem to function fine by hand. Think I'll order a few of those followers though just to be sure. Thanks
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Old November 01, 2017, 20:47   #21
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https://www.ebay.com/p/Magazine-Foll...ber/1531898506 works good for 450bm or single shotting an AR with long bullets, ie HiPower matches. For 450bm feeding, just notch a crescent about 3/16" deep in the front of the mags body.
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Old November 03, 2017, 08:04   #22
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So you retrobates and scalywags have peaked my interest. Been looking at different options and the extra round per magazine along with zero modifications are pushing me more in the 458 SOCOM direction. Also this from Wikipedia which may be obsolete but something to consider about 450 Bushmaster.

Quote:
The .45 Professional (Bushmaster) was ruled out because in an interview with industry press, the developer of said cartridge stated that steel proprietary toGeneral Motors*was used in the bolts and extensions to withstand the high operating pressures.
Also been running numbers on subsonic and supersonic as well. Still looking for the one shot stop subsonic round and the SOCOM seems to fit that bill. A 450 grain Barnes Triple Shock bullet clocking at 1050 to 100 fps would be a 150 yard point blank subsonic sledge hammer. Not used to getting over 1,000 ft/lb energy calculations when running subsonic figuring out why special ops guys asked for it in Somolia for putting down skinnies. Even the 300 grain Barnes TTSX "SOCOM" bullet holds a half ton of energy past 100 yards subsonic. At supersonic delivers over a ton of energy. That is a "Get the Freak Out of My Face" and hit the ground DRT round. Run it up supersonic for over a ton of muzzle energy and get a 250 yard point blank.

It's almost odd as except for huge stockpiles of ammunition put back, variety of specialty rounds the 5.56 is slowly slipping back to least used AR cartridge for me. Day to day am a 6.8 spc II fanatic now as at what I would consider zombie engagement ranges it's much harder hitter and zombie stopper. For varmints the 22 Nosler is now my AR 15 round of choice and even loading M855A1 projectiles and about to start a second 22 Nosler fighting rifle to go with the varmint rigs. Now if can nail down the "perfect" subsonic varient then as age creeps up and wrestling full size battle rifles gets difficult will have a fleet of poodle shooters to use into my 80's.

Watching wife go downhill so fast plus trying to become a specialist at modifying guns for use by handicapped folks, am realizing will come a point where minor caliber 1911's and poodle shooters will quite possibly be my primary option for keeping the sport going. Just need to find a demo rifle set up for subsonic to test drive before jumping into another cartridge that eats expensive brass, bullets and high priced reloading equipment. Of course imagine it would be a great cast bullet lobber as well.
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Old November 03, 2017, 19:11   #23
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Quote:
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I've heard more like a 20 ga. I'll let you know as soon as I get one together.
The rifle I shot hit pretty hard, I'd put it a little harder than 3" 12 gauge slug through an 870.

That said, the guy who built it used a carbine buffer/extension, and I didn't inquire what weight buffer and/or spring he used. The gas port could have been huge as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he just tossed the upper on a off the shelf lower (I recall it was run of the mill Rock River). That said, the rifle went bang ever time you pulled the trigger, it was reliable.

I plan to build mine with a rifle length extension/buffer assembly. I'm not sure if there is a magic gas port diameter for this application. For the application, I think a decent off the shelf barrel will do the job, so I will use an adjustable gas block... hopefully, I can dial it in from there.
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Old November 04, 2017, 05:37   #24
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In this rifle have been swapping back and forth between a "No-Kick" captured spring buffer, MGI Rate Reduction buffer and a hydraulic recoil reduction buffer. All reduce felt and spring noise significantly. My guess if get rifle tuned right and willing to run a $200 buffer with adjustible gas can get recoil managed in a big bore AR 15. Have 6.8's and 22 Noslers that followup shot is instant with zero muzzle climb and unnoticed recoil if concentrating on task at hand.



The SIG carbon fiber A2 stock is super light to compensate for filling it full of heavy giblets.
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Old November 04, 2017, 05:58   #25
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Which one feels the best?
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Old November 04, 2017, 19:13   #26
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I like the MGI Rate Reduction but on a big bore would literally try all I had before deciding. Since have them a bunch of odd design buffers can swap as want to determine which is best for application. My guess would be a KynShot Hydraulic or JP captured spring with tungsten weights.

Likely try this Kyntec with Tubbs Flatwire chrome silicon spring.



Then deciding on suppressor and mount with muzzle brake so when shooting unsuppressed get a little aid from up front as well. Having huge selection of odd parts and willingness to try multiple setups is way to find that optimum setup then order up whatever worked best and return borrowed parts to rifle they were robbed for. On two of my 22 Nosler's have a SIG A2 stock with Slash Heavy Buffer, Tubbs spring and PRI Quiet Control muzzle brake. If off on doping first shot rifle has not moved and able to see where round landed for fast adjustment and follow up shot. Tried five brakes before found right one for the no suppressor Nosler's. Have a large box of buffers and brakes that allow me to tune a rifle first trip to range and always carry a rifle or two feel might want to borrow a buffer system out of. Sometimes it's just the idea tried everything I could that my mind assumes there is less recoil. Riding the short bus makes it easier to use dime store psychology on myself.
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Old November 05, 2017, 00:02   #27
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I feel like I just read a post made by "Eugene"....from the walking dead....

LMAO
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Old November 05, 2017, 07:22   #28
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I feel like I just read a post made by "Eugene"....from the walking dead....

LMAO
Maybe it's a good thing I don't watch t.v. so having to decide if have a new best friend or need to push up the big bore AR project. (That's a joke folks, no violation of the no threats policy)

Yesterday my mom came by work as been trying to reorganize the place for the New Year as my holiday slow down is starting to begin. Soon as people start thinking Thanksgiving number of new projects slow as move toward company Christmas parties and personal travel. I was in the welding/metal fabrication area and she said was up in office area. Have huge table of enough small parts to build at several dozen AR's. May not have looked organized to most but stocks were in a piles by A2, OEM collabsible and aftermarket collapsible. Forearms by milspec, freefloat, keylock, M-lock, etc.

Triggers were sorted by milspec, single stage target and two stage target. Had a bazillion springs, pins, safeties, pins, muzzle devices, suppressor adapters, and on and on. Talking a 3 foot by five foot table stacked a foot deep in places. She took everything and just randomly shoved it in boxes in a total jumble. Now my entire afternoon which was planned to reload 38 special SWC's and 357 wad cutters will be going into work and emptying all those boxes one by one and organizing into clear plastic bins appropriately sized for each parts group. Had five Franklin Binary triggers that have come in since Vegas incident that purchased before price jump at $292 each. Asked her which box as was planning on putting in safe that keep bolt carrier groups and Geissele triggers and she had no idea though remembered the black and red blister packs they are packed in now.

My guess is will take minimum of four hours to get sorted back into piles as had yesterday morning. To top it all off she took another 5.56 AR 15, half dozen magazines and four of the 120 round boxes of M855 ammo that are becoming popular. This is now over a half dozen AR's my 76 year old mother has kidnapped. Don't even ask what's happening to them but suspect all her grandkids and great grands are getting AR's even though I have willed them all a nice rifle upon my passing. She has me do a $1 bill of sale, log them to her and they are gone.
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Old November 05, 2017, 12:01   #29
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Maybe it's a good thing I don't watch t.v. so having to decide if have a new best friend or need to push up the big bore AR project. (That's a joke folks, no violation of the no threats policy)

Yesterday my mom came by work as been trying to reorganize the place for the New Year as my holiday slow down is starting to begin. Soon as people start thinking Thanksgiving number of new projects slow as move toward company Christmas parties and personal travel. I was in the welding/metal fabrication area and she said was up in office area. Have huge table of enough small parts to build at several dozen AR's. May not have looked organized to most but stocks were in a piles by A2, OEM collabsible and aftermarket collapsible. Forearms by milspec, freefloat, keylock, M-lock, etc.

Triggers were sorted by milspec, single stage target and two stage target. Had a bazillion springs, pins, safeties, pins, muzzle devices, suppressor adapters, and on and on. Talking a 3 foot by five foot table stacked a foot deep in places. She took everything and just randomly shoved it in boxes in a total jumble. Now my entire afternoon which was planned to reload 38 special SWC's and 357 wad cutters will be going into work and emptying all those boxes one by one and organizing into clear plastic bins appropriately sized for each parts group. Had five Franklin Binary triggers that have come in since Vegas incident that purchased before price jump at $292 each. Asked her which box as was planning on putting in safe that keep bolt carrier groups and Geissele triggers and she had no idea though remembered the black and red blister packs they are packed in now.

My guess is will take minimum of four hours to get sorted back into piles as had yesterday morning. To top it all off she took another 5.56 AR 15, half dozen magazines and four of the 120 round boxes of M855 ammo that are becoming popular. This is now over a half dozen AR's my 76 year old mother has kidnapped. Don't even ask what's happening to them but suspect all her grandkids and great grands are getting AR's even though I have willed them all a nice rifle upon my passing. She has me do a $1 bill of sale, log them to her and they are gone.


No man, don't take what I said as a bad shot...more of a friendly ribbing.

I been reading your posts for a long while....and I like them, and the info.
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Old November 05, 2017, 16:31   #30
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Maybe it's a good thing I don't watch t.v. so having to decide if have a new best friend or need to push up the big bore AR project. (That's a joke folks, no violation of the no threats policy)

Yesterday my mom came by work as been trying to reorganize the place for the New Year as my holiday slow down is starting to begin. Soon as people start thinking Thanksgiving number of new projects slow as move toward company Christmas parties and personal travel. I was in the welding/metal fabrication area and she said was up in office area. Have huge table of enough small parts to build at several dozen AR's. May not have looked organized to most but stocks were in a piles by A2, OEM collabsible and aftermarket collapsible. Forearms by milspec, freefloat, keylock, M-lock, etc.

Triggers were sorted by milspec, single stage target and two stage target. Had a bazillion springs, pins, safeties, pins, muzzle devices, suppressor adapters, and on and on. Talking a 3 foot by five foot table stacked a foot deep in places. She took everything and just randomly shoved it in boxes in a total jumble. Now my entire afternoon which was planned to reload 38 special SWC's and 357 wad cutters will be going into work and emptying all those boxes one by one and organizing into clear plastic bins appropriately sized for each parts group. Had five Franklin Binary triggers that have come in since Vegas incident that purchased before price jump at $292 each. Asked her which box as was planning on putting in safe that keep bolt carrier groups and Geissele triggers and she had no idea though remembered the black and red blister packs they are packed in now.

My guess is will take minimum of four hours to get sorted back into piles as had yesterday morning. To top it all off she took another 5.56 AR 15, half dozen magazines and four of the 120 round boxes of M855 ammo that are becoming popular. This is now over a half dozen AR's my 76 year old mother has kidnapped. Don't even ask what's happening to them but suspect all her grandkids and great grands are getting AR's even though I have willed them all a nice rifle upon my passing. She has me do a $1 bill of sale, log them to her and they are gone.


And so I thought I'd stop by my nice little Huey's place, leave him some cookies, and take another AR and a ton of ammo! Hee hee!
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Old November 05, 2017, 21:24   #31
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Mom actually shows up in work cloths, not in house coat. Years ago I gave her and dad a pair of consequtive serial number Smith M60's for Christmas. When dad passed she returned both and asked if had something similar but different in a one pack. Think there was too much emotion in those guns for her. Dug out a five shot Rossi 352 +P stainless gun which has almost identical ergonomics. She does practice occassionally as asks for more of those flat nose bullets (wad cutters) and hands me a Ziplock baggie of brass but the carry ammo in it was the original 125 grain JHP's gave them for carry ammo with guns. It was turning green. Just happened to have a few boxes of the Hornady Critical Defense low recoil with pink tips for women folk had picked up for wife and handed her two with the Rossi. Great trade for me, Rossi for pair of Smith M60's. Left her an SKS with 600 rounds on stripper clips years ago which she uses so have to assume she is going to wrap the AR and will be under a Christmas tree for another grand kid of age.

Mom let me cast bullets as a kid on kitchen stove and when went to first IPSC/bowling pin matches came back and told her how training on the farm by myself was not used to shooting with so much other gunfire around me so she started training next to me a few days a week, especially on pin tables. Same thing with IHMSA, she would use my backup gun (Ruger 44 magnum Flat Top) and but silhouettes. We used to try and sandbag her with some new 3.5" 12 guage magnum or hot 44 mag load and she would lean into them and chow down on some big bore badness. First AK purchased didn't know the tin of ammo that came with it had steel cores. Had a full steel course set up in front of parents house so when rained, just open garage doors and blaze away in the dry. Was raining when brought the AK home, couple friends were hanging out and ran the plate course with a magazine load. When finished both friends were on floor screaming stop shooting. Steel bullets and jackets were coming back at us at high speed, they said sounded like buzzing bees. Front of house had bits of jackets and steel penetrators stuck all in her cedar house and she didn't complain a bit. Whenever house is retained to this day more pieces are still found embedded in boards. When at age 15 somehow a complete reloading/casting setup and pair of new guns magically showed up, bench built in bedroom had worked on for a week in the barn had equipment mounted no questions were asked as to how it got there considering was not allowed rto drive on paved roads, just gravel and dirt.

Mom can pick up any gun, check it, load/unload, operate and till stroke messed up her dominant eye was as fine a shot as anyone. Single action 44 mags were here favorite and would let them roll up over her head to bleed off recoil rather than fight it. AR 15's she always had an affinity for and why I think she is making sure all her grands get one. Believes they will keep and not sell if came from grandmother and she is concerned with gun ownership staying alive in family. As good as she was about hobby I can't complain about her stealing inexpensive junk box/bargain parts builds. When finished college stayed home two years so paycheck literally went to gun shop every Friday and LGS owner would give me my weeks allowance based on how big my tab had run up. When moved out for good had paid for vault full of paid for guns, enough money to buy furniture for first place, make deposits and pay first three months bills. Kept a gun on layaway for next 20 years and resulted in what has become a lifetime of good times.
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Old November 05, 2017, 23:25   #32
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I like the MGI Rate Reduction but on a big bore would literally try all I had before deciding. Since have them a bunch of odd design buffers can swap as want to determine which is best for application. My guess would be a KynShot Hydraulic or JP captured spring with tungsten weights.

Likely try this Kyntec with Tubbs Flatwire chrome silicon spring.



Then deciding on suppressor and mount with muzzle brake so when shooting unsuppressed get a little aid from up front as well. Having huge selection of odd parts and willingness to try multiple setups is way to find that optimum setup then order up whatever worked best and return borrowed parts to rifle they were robbed for. On two of my 22 Nosler's have a SIG A2 stock with Slash Heavy Buffer, Tubbs spring and PRI Quiet Control muzzle brake. If off on doping first shot rifle has not moved and able to see where round landed for fast adjustment and follow up shot. Tried five brakes before found right one for the no suppressor Nosler's. Have a large box of buffers and brakes that allow me to tune a rifle first trip to range and always carry a rifle or two feel might want to borrow a buffer system out of. Sometimes it's just the idea tried everything I could that my mind assumes there is less recoil. Riding the short bus makes it easier to use dime store psychology on myself.


RB 5000 or 5004?
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Old November 06, 2017, 06:53   #33
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I run Kynetic RB5006 model in one of my AR 10's in 338 Federal and JB Generation 2 Captured Spring system in the other. Both work well. The Kynetic is plug and play but the JP is much better if order the Spring Builders Kit so able to totally tune it to rifle and gas system. The JP with tungsten weights and spring selection seem like they are bomb proof. The Kynetic being hydraulic has held up fine but always that fear in back of mind that being filled with some sort of goo could go south some day. Having blown seals on hydraulic cylinders as big in diameter as a five gallon bucket you always wonder about hydraulics. That said, I have more rifles with the MGI self adjusting hydraulic buffer and use in binary fire rifles that on occasion see several 30 round mag dumps of 6.8 back to back and the Kynetic RB5001 in my 22 Nosler fighting build ran it's first couple of binary mag dumps totally controllable and no more perceived recoil than a 5.56 with H3 buffer.

So here is the deal when go down this road. Are you willing to buy a $150 buffer just to experiment with? Better yet are you willing to buy three or four different $125 to $200 buffers and when build a special circumstances rifle experiment with all to see which works best? Currently all of mine are in rifles so had to pull five rifles from vault when converted the 22 Nosler to binary and experiment with all till decided which "felt" most controllable and softest shooting and ordered up another Kynetic. Since I use a lot of SIG carbon fiber A2 stocks as well as carbine stocks have a mix of both from three different vendors. I talk mostly about my under $200 junk box builds or $400 to $500 mid range premium builds but have a few rifles with $400 to $500 barrels, a $200 gas block and $150 buffer.

Thus I get to rob parts for testing then order the one that works best in rifle of the day. I do not own a big bore AR and am still own the fence. Recently set up for reloading 22 Nosler and 6XC along with 270 AR and 6mm x 45. 6XC was over $600 in dies, micrometer bullet seater, bullet comperator test case and other special widgets. Set 270 AR dies from Whidden are $250 so the idea of jumping on another AR stepchild have to consider not just the rifle but likely $500 worth of brass and bullets on top of reloading equipment and some factory ammo. Basically figure a $1,000 bill to adopt a new cartridge if oddball. Expensive dies, other accessories, stockpile of factory ammo plus specialty bullets for the load. Barnes 458 SOCOM TTSX and similar specialty projectiles from LeHigh are pushing $1 per projectile plus powder and primer. Loaded ammo is $2 per round and up then empty cases 75 cents.

Went to order another box of Tubbs 6XC DTAC's the other day and not only are they out of stock a 50 round box is $102 plus shipping now. It's worth every dime it costs but have a lot of exotics like 7mm Practical, 257/264 mag and lots of P.O. Ackley rifles to feed. Proves not scared of adopting a new round but have more case forming dies than most reloaders have total die sets for standard cartridges. Right now am recovering from a year of heavy medical bills and building mostly standard stuff unless fall into something cheap. Luckily on my 270 AR found a guy who ordered a barrel, set of dies and suddenly discovered had run out of money before had all his parts. Got the barrel and dies for about 60% of street price as he had them listed for months with no serious offers.

So yes, I am interested in the 458 SOCOM now but which of these buffers would recommend can't say unless actually go down the path. One magazine of 458 ammo might bust a $150 buffer or it might soak up half the perceived recoil and run forever. Experimenting is fun but it's never done for economy. Have rifles that I know at 500 rounds barrel has to be cut and rechambered then at 1,000 rounds thrown in scrap heap. Lots of fun launching sub orbital missiles though.
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Old November 06, 2017, 13:58   #34
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You could just make a .45 ACP upper into a .460 Rowland, but that would be cheap and easy.....
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Old November 06, 2017, 23:35   #35
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You could just make a .45 ACP upper into a .460 Rowland, but that would be cheap and easy.....
Everyone needs one 1911 converted to 460 Rowland. Have the Standard 5" Compensated Rowland kit on a Springfield. Been drooling over the new triple port stainless "Cobra" kit to put on a SIG but right now putting what little money can spend into odds and ends needed to finish AR and FAL builds have 90% of parts or any item that is too good of a deal to pass up. While the 460 is a Mac Daddy round in a 1911; in an AR even though have a gazillion magazines have less than ten that hold more than ten rounds. At supersonic speeds no listed load have ever seen that gets over 1,000 ft/lbs with some high 900 ft/lb loads close. Subsonic loads using 260 grain bullets get a max of about 750 ft/lbs. In a 1911 these are some serious performance improvements over 45 acp but not worthy of an AR build. 458 SOCOM runs double the ft/lbs supersonic of best 460 Rowland and double the ft/lbs over best 460 subsonic recommended loads. This is using one of the LeHigh projectiles I have been raging on lately at 582 grains will get 1480 ft/lbs out of 458 SOCOM subsonic and deliver devistating expansion and still a half ton of energy at 150 yards.

If build a big bore it would be to attain these huge energy numbers using the wide array of specialty bullets built around the 458 SOCOM or other similar cartridge. Honestly pretty happy with 6.8 as an all around fighting cartridge as supersonic delivers almost a ton of energy at muzzle and over a half ton of energy at 200 yards supersonic but at subsonic speeds it becomes anemic. Have been on a maximizing subsonic performance lately which has been leading me back to 300 BO for easy factory loaded specialty subsonic options and lots of handload options. Only issue is anything can do in 300 BO can replicate in 7.62◊51 but cycling issues have to be addressed. Does not bother me to build one gun for a single purpose such as the older unlimited 1911 IPSC pistol reconfigured and freshened up for use in church sanctuary. If built the rifle might take on more than a novelty role.

Got tangled up in new Administrative Pastor's cost cutting dropping insurance on our in-house security team but yesterday fielded over two dozen calls about coming back to direct the team. Told them had to spend some money to certify all members as licensed armed security guards in Georgia, reinstate our insurance and Secretary of State security license. A church that spends over $3,000 on a set for a single Sunday's program and $50,000 on youth event needs to be able to spend $5,000 to $10,000 per year on security team including our insurance. If they get back on initial program might rather have the 458 SOCOM or similar in sanctuary than my 6.8 which had been using last couple months before left team. I am talking about a rifle that most likely will never be needed but if is called up, will be in room with 1,000 people running in total panic as try to end the issue causing the panic. Yesterday fielded over two dozen calls from former and other churches about security programs. Unfortunately Georgia has very specific laws that apply to even volunteer security and cost as much to license as "for profit" security company.

Upset me when church would not buy security team ballistic vests but purchased two for the pastor. Won't pay for security on home campus but when send teams to our Haiti campus have a pair of local armed police SWAT officers we pay to protect our pastors and medical teams 24/7 from airport and back. The home congregation paying for all this deserves same security. If go back all rules and team equipment needs will be met and a SIG MCX Rattler will go in the lock box. Basically after Haiti hurricane took our budget and spent it to rebuild that campus so quit as not working a big room without insurance. Back on topic this gives an idea why I would want a 458 AR. Perfect in a big room with 75 yard possible shots and don't want shoot throughs and one shot stops. A 350 grain TTSX or LeHigh 582 grain match subsonic at 1050 fps would be the big hammer in the room.
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Old November 09, 2017, 11:16   #36
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I hate all y'all. That is said with utmost of respect and jest. But have three 458 SOCOM barrels narrowed down to choose from. All seem to be 1:14 twist no matter of length. Looking at 12.5", 14.5" and 16" lengths. Leaning toward 14.5" then pin suppressor adapter for 16" OAL so short as possible, can snap on a can and still be able to navigate a structure. Dont see using enough to dedicate a full time suppressor for a pinned one stamp SBR and feel the extra two inches of barrel over 12.5" is worth the small loss of maneuverability. Have discovered most companies sell a big bore upper with ejection port opened. Have plenty of uppers laying around, any issues if open one up on mill then squirt with Cerakote? Too cheap to pay $80 for an upper if can avoid it. Assume all else is standard AR problem solving to optimize gas and buffer interaction. Who is the resident 458 SOCOM expert in this watering hole?
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Old November 09, 2017, 14:34   #37
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I thought the thread was about 450 Bushmaster, for hunting purposes, in areas that do not allow necked down rifle cartridges?
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Old November 10, 2017, 12:04   #38
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After pricing things out including my time I figured that just buying a complete upper from midway was the most cost effective way to get a functional upper with parts meant for their purpose. From what I've read the bolts are made of a special steel. They are on sale now fwtw. From what I have read it was also designed to function on a standard lower but the addition of an H2 buffer helps lighten the recoil. Or you could add a Hydrolic buffer, but really if you don't have a back injury what kind of little girl is afraid of a little recoil? Mags are a sticky point, a modified 20 round factory mag will run you $30 or you can buy an aftermarket follower and modified you own mags.

The only difference I can find in the factory mags is that they are made of stainless and have a proprietary follower, in my own unscientific testing I found standard gi mags, lancer mags and magpul mags have too weak of feed lips to stop deflection which allows a sort of random automatic mag unload. C-products still makes a stainless mag body or at least did and you can find them on the net for around $11 bucks each (got mine from aim) and then pick up a replacement follower for around $10 each. Still more than I wanted to pay for an ar mag. So after looking at the factory followers I found that if you remove it and look at the bottom there is a small void, fill the void with expoxy and then file or mill the top of the follower flat. The ribs of the mag will keep the rounds in a single stack and so far this works for me. Time will tell.
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Old December 20, 2017, 12:41   #39
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Just a follow up, C-products, 30 round mags (stainless) work flawlessly if you modify the follower, mill/file off the hump on top of the follower so that it is flat. We tested about a 100 rounds through 4 different modified mags. Accuracy is as good as I am at 100 yds. Recoil with an H2 buffer felt to me about the same as an ar10, my 12 year old son says he doesn't think it kicks as much as a 308 though fwtw
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Old December 22, 2017, 10:15   #40
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