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Old October 19, 2017, 05:33   #1
raubvogel
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When did the Cult of the 1911 started?

Being serious here, so save your jokes until after someone post a pict of juggling jugs.

Reason I ask is that I got a "Learning shooting" like book from the 70s and it (1) called the 1911 "Colt Government Model" which I think was its original name and (b) it treated it as just another semiauto that had nothing special compared to others in the books, and a few steps below revolvers (remember: 70s). There was no superlatives or mention that it was popular on the competition circuit or any circuit at all; it was just an American surplus market pistol. I would even add that reading the book makes me think the Church of JMB had not been founded yet.

So, when did it start and how did it happen?
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Old October 19, 2017, 06:07   #2
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In conjunction with the advent of the *wonder nines* in the 80's, I suspect.

It was formed as a revolt against polymer...and the adoption of the Beretta.
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Old October 19, 2017, 09:09   #3
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On March 29th, 1911
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Old October 19, 2017, 09:13   #4
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On March 29th, 1911
I support this assertion.
Went looking for *good answer* stuff and laughed when I found this.

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Old October 19, 2017, 09:56   #5
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treated it as just another semiauto that had nothing special compared to others in the books, and a few steps below revolvers (remember: 70s). There was no superlatives or mention that it was popular on the competition circuit
I can only speak of my own local experience in Southern IN, but by the late 70's & early 80's, the 1911 was the dominant handgun used at the local range for bowling pin matches and what we then called "combat matches" (similar to 3 gun type set-ups).

Please note I started shooting these matches at age 15 which was 1980, so I have no idea what was popular before then, but the 1911 was all the rage at that time and from what I think I remember, it was common rather than a "new" thing for that type of shooting. I do think they had revolver classes at that time, but I cannot swear to it being an actual, seperate class or just that I do remember guys shooting revolvers at the time.

PS: The 1911 I shot last weekend in the vintage 2-gun match in Charlotte is the very same 1911 I got at age 15 for this particular purpose
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Old October 19, 2017, 11:34   #6
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During AWB when alternative was to carry half-empty 9mm pistols.
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Old October 19, 2017, 12:07   #7
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It was formed as a revolt against polymer...and the adoption of the Beretta.

I’d agree with this. Particularly the part about the Beretta M9 replacing the 1911, and especially because of the reasoning used to justify the replacement.

The other good answer may be—and it is my own personal reason—that after a guy gets enough experience with and handles enough pistols it just becomes too tiresome trying to find features, benefits, and ergonomics on any other pistol that aren’t superior on a 1911. I was beaten and worn down to finally accept the truth that perfection was darn-near accomplished way back in 1911. It was an expensive and often frustrating journey, but I made it.

Full disclosure: I also own and like the Beretta M9 alot.....but it is no 1911!
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Old October 19, 2017, 13:49   #8
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The other good answer may be—and it is my own personal reason—that after a guy gets enough experience with and handles enough pistols it just becomes too tiresome trying to find features, benefits, and ergonomics on any other pistol that aren’t superior on a 1911. I was beaten and worn down to finally accept the truth that perfection was darn-near accomplished way back in 1911. It was an expensive and often frustrating journey, but I made it.
Yes to this. I started with a Ruger Security Six and an Ithaca 1911a1 as my first pistols at age 21. Went through a bunch of different hand guns....my favorite and first go-to is the Remington Rand that I carried as a duty weapon in the '80s. I do like my Tupperware FNP-9 (my current EDC) but not nearly as much as my 1911. If TSHTF I will be grabbing my 1911....
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Old October 19, 2017, 16:43   #9
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It started after WWI in 1929 when the .38 Super was the hottest round you could get in a pistol. It would defeat the body armor and car bodies of the day.
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Old October 19, 2017, 17:02   #10
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Old October 19, 2017, 17:52   #11
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It started with me in the mid 60's when I watched my uncle shoot a big black fu-king cockroach in my Grandma's bedroom. Right thru the floor..
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Old October 19, 2017, 19:19   #12
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It started with me in the mid 60's when I watched my uncle shoot a big black fu-king cockroach in my Grandma's bedroom. Right thru the floor..
You're lying . My ole man had a LW commander that I have now that he got for 25$ with some ammo back in the 50s from some other guy who needed cash so I grew up thinking they were the shit. Never had the full size. Went with a Sig 227 if I want to shoot serious paper killing 45acp with a can.

My father was not a gun guy. He bought cars
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Old October 23, 2017, 18:49   #13
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Have loved them since 60's also. Can't believe my wife uncle got a D.C.M. U.S.&S. that was as new for the numbers we remember like $17.00 or something like this.
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Old October 23, 2017, 20:00   #14
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For me it was Basic training 1971. Had a 1911 hardballer every since in one form or another, not always a Colt, but never a railed model.
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Old October 24, 2017, 00:16   #15
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Probably with the ascendance of so called 'practical' shooting.

Consider what sort of competition was in the field at that time, the 1911 had advantages:
Walther P-38, singlestack 9mm, heel magazine catch, slide mounted manual safety.
Browning High-Power, double stack 9mm that usually had a magazine disconnector that decreased the utility of the button mag catch, frame mounted safety.
Tokarev, singlestack 30 cal, button magazine catch, no manual safety.
CZ52, singlestack 30 cal, heel magazine catch, frame mounted safety.
Beretta M1951 (cousin of the P38), singlestack 9mm, button magazine catch in an inconvenient location and frame mounted "crossbolt' style safety.
Luger, singlestack 9mm, effectively a heel magazine catch and frame mounted safety.
S&W M39, singlestack 9mm button magazine catch, slide mounted safety.
SIG P210, singlestack 9mm heel magazine catch, frame mounted safety.
There were also revolvers but they sucked to reload unless you had moon clips or (very rare) Prideaux loaders. Even then, changing magazines with an autoloader was quicker.
The 1911 had good parts available to improve the gun more than the P-35 thanks to bullseye and the AMU. PPC is still dominated by revolvers.

It would be into the 70s before the SIG Sauer P series showed up and they would have heel magazine catches until years later.
S&W introduces the M59 as a double stack version of the M39.
The CZ-75 was a com-block, unobtainable unicorn. All the controls were properly laid out though (except for the magazine brake.)
Walther and H&K are still making singlestack pistols in the 70s and heel mag catches.
Police still carried revolvers.
The 1911 and its copies don't have a lot of serious competition (except the Browning P-35 and M59, maybe) until a surge of double stack pistols with button magazine catches at the trigger guard location get into the market in the late 70s early 80s. People also decide that a gun with a perpetually cocked hammer looks frightening so you get guns that start out double action and transition to single action or just stay double action. So the 1911 remains. Doesn't mean that everyone who picked it up liked it or would wax eloquent about it.
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Old October 24, 2017, 06:12   #16
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1960's for me in the Marine Corps. Learned to respect one heck of a sidearm.
In RVN we had the M14 originally, then we were issued an M16. That lasted all of 2 weeks and the piece of crap was taken back and I got a 1911 and an M3. Short range, but at least they worked.

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Old October 24, 2017, 09:47   #17
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Got to say the 60's too, with the introduction of "Practical" or "Combat" style shooting that gained popularity in Calif. and spread east.
Gunsmith's like Armand Swenson and F Bob Chow were accurizing ole Slabsides to produce some amazingly accurate and reliable pistols.
Jeff Cooper promoted them in the gun mags and a guy named Weaver showed everyone how to hold the thing.
Thell Reed went around the Military Bases and gun meets showing what a gussied up 1911 could do and did it too fast to see what he did.

Being in Cali in the sixties was a mixed bag for me. E2 pay didn't buy much in Bob Chow's San Francisco store, but then Uncle Sam and the taxpayers provided all the weapons and ammo I was going to require. Have to admit that the 1911 they provided was a pretty sad looking thing compared to one of Bob or Armand's.
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Old October 24, 2017, 14:19   #18
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Just as a FYI, before I started this thread my assumption was the 70s because that is when companies like Wilson started manufacturing 1911s instead of building them from GI parts + some gunsmithing. Before that either you found one that used to be military competition or a nicely rebuilt one (above GI specs) or you took it to a gunsmith. This is based on something I read that I think was from late 70s/early 80s that stated the 1911 was the best competition pistol but the first thing you did when you got a new one was take it to a 1911 gunsmith.

My analogy here is the AR: there is a point in time where people started making parts for it that did not truly improved it but was perceived as an improvement. Or people would spend days discussing the merits of trigger brand X or buttstock Y (which might have looked like the AR16 carbine one).

To me, one of the requirements of a cult is *obsession*. And that has nothing to do with how good something really is. It is the point where there is enough people worrying about getting very anal about parts (new aftermarket but of a reputable/tactical/procomp brand or pristine verifiable/documented original if your name is hanselld) that companies see there is money to be made there. Another way to look at it is the Top Gear Cool Wall.
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Old October 24, 2017, 17:57   #19
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To my mind it really started back in the 50's,,,when the military shooting team armorers first started making them shoot well.
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Old October 24, 2017, 19:43   #20
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Got to say the 60's too, with the introduction of "Practical" or "Combat" style shooting that gained popularity in Calif. and spread east.
Gunsmith's like Armand Swenson and F Bob Chow were accurizing ole Slabsides to produce some amazingly accurate and reliable pistols.
Jeff Cooper promoted them in the gun mags and a guy named Weaver showed everyone how to hold the thing.
I'd agree. There was a whole cottage industry making parts and customizing 1911's in the sixties. You could do a whole lot of things to a 1911 that you couldn't do to other surplus pistols back then.
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Old October 24, 2017, 23:04   #21
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To my mind it really started back in the 50's,,,when the military shooting team armorers first started making them shoot well.
I believe it's true in ever sense of the word. Bullseye shooting was probably the first game the 1911 was the master of and it was the gun for many years. At the time the competition was auto vs revolver and autos won.
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Old October 27, 2017, 08:12   #22
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It started with me in the mid 60's when I watched my uncle shoot a big black fu-king cockroach in my Grandma's bedroom. Right thru the floor..
Once saw a guy half lubricated and working toward full lubrication pull a 1911 and shoot a bumble bee flying around his living room. Third shot and it was nothing but a few bumble bee remnants and three holes through ceiling and roof. Was told he was known to do similar things stone cold sober so never shared a space with the man again.

For me it was age 16 in 1979 as had to get a legal drivers license to have a decent enough job to buy a Colt. 1911's were ruling the bowling pin game and early IPSC matches. Believe IPSC was formed and began having national and world level matches around '75. Had a subscription to Guns & Ammo and Shooting Times by age 11, first handgun age 12 and first "purchased with my own money" centerfire handgun age 13. Age 12 was handload in on local game wardens equipment and soon after had my own. Remember going to a few matches at age 16/17ish with my box stock Colt 1911 and seeing all the early race guns but was scared to death to hurt my Colt.

Purchased an Essex frame and slide then built my first race gun. All I can say was it functioned 100% and looked cool enough was able to sell for enough to buy a beater series 70 and pay part of the gun smith bill for commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambi thumb safety, trigger job and match barrel with compensator. Opened up the ejection port, installed commander ejector and a Wilson extractor plus better rear sight and shaved front sight myself before went to gun smith to reduce the smith bill. Used a comp with front sight on comp to extend sight radius and save having to pay to have aftermarket sight silver soldered in frame. Shot that gun in first match before graduated from High School in '81. Freshman year of college added three more 1911's to collection and by age 21 probably owned more than most will ever have.

Thus from my perspective the Colt 1911 cult was in full swing by early '70's soon as started reading the gun rags. From reality I belive it began in 1905 with the precursor to the 1911 model. Read stories about WW1 and WW2 veterans that swore that their 1911's got them home alive. Read stories from Korea where some men preferred their 1911 to their 30 carbine rifle for close quarters combat. Have a friend (lowest key, calmest person ever met) who was a tunnel rat in Vietnam and swears that a 45 is only handgun that he could fire one round and move to next opposing force without worry that his first shot didn't put someone down DRT. Knew friend of my father who was in special forces during Vietnam and said a 45 would put a man down with more certainty than a burst from 9mm submachine gun.

So from personal experience and talking to veterans of wars to reading stories from wars whose veterans passimg predate my appearance on planet there has always been a cult that had great respect for the 1911 back to WW1. From personal use and becoming a range brat the 1911 was ruling the IPSC and bowling pin tables from early/mid 70's. I will carry a 1911 to my death. Have to take wife to ATL to see her spinal specialist today and will have a SIG 1911 Target model from their custom shop with tritium front sight, mag funnel, 11° target crown, ambidextrous safety, all parts hand fitted and 3.25 pound trigger with 8 round magazine plus SIG Double Nickel compact as a backup. The Double Nickel has been back to New Hampshire as well for full hand fitting, custom trigger at 3.25 pounds and ambidextrous safety. Will have a pair of ten round McCormick spare mags in pouch and pair of Wilson 8 round mags in left rear pocket and Level 11a armor with Safariland/Protech special threat plates.

Looking at my daily carry SIG 2022 in 40 that carry at work which was first polymer pistol ever purchased. It stays at home as all the SIG 40's are work guns but the SIG 2022 in 9mm with Osprey can will come with as fits in briefcase with can attached plus wife can handle it easily if have to hand it off to her. Always carried 1911's till got tired of destroying the finish at work and discovered how tough the SIG's were at $350 out the door. If scuff a $350 polymer and stainless gun no tears shed. If scuff a $1,500 1911 it sucks. Far as I am concerned the 1911 is most well sorted out handgun on market. Especially in ten round limit states.
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Old October 27, 2017, 19:32   #23
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Have loved them since 60's also. Can't believe my wife uncle got a D.C.M. U.S.&S. that was as new for the numbers we remember like $17.00 or something like this.
Hell Yes I remember the 17.00 dollar M1911A1s I carried a US property marked Colt for years.Still have it.Great Pistol
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Old October 29, 2017, 10:49   #24
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Have a U.S. Property GI 1911 with Quadralock barrel and three pound trigger in holster today as hope to get a little range time in before end of day and is one of my favorite shooters.
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Old October 29, 2017, 13:21   #25
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Just as a FYI, before I started this thread my assumption was the 70s because that is when companies like Wilson started manufacturing 1911s instead of building them from GI parts + some gunsmithing. Before that either you found one that used to be military competition or a nicely rebuilt one (above GI specs) or you took it to a gunsmith. This is based on something I read that I think was from late 70s/early 80s that stated the 1911 was the best competition pistol but the first thing you did when you got a new one was take it to a 1911 gunsmith.

My analogy here is the AR: there is a point in time where people started making parts for it that did not truly improved it but was perceived as an improvement. Or people would spend days discussing the merits of trigger brand X or buttstock Y (which might have looked like the AR16 carbine one).

To me, one of the requirements of a cult is *obsession*. And that has nothing to do with how good something really is. It is the point where there is enough people worrying about getting very anal about parts (new aftermarket but of a reputable/tactical/procomp brand or pristine verifiable/documented original if your name is hanselld) that companies see there is money to be made there. Another way to look at it is the Top Gear Cool Wall.
I was thinking the same thing. When the three big custom gunsmiths started offering hi-end 1911's I think the market sort of exploded, and then following this, manufacturers were offering semi-custom options on their handguns. Particularly Colt and Springfield.
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Old October 29, 2017, 14:03   #26
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Old October 29, 2017, 15:48   #27
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Just opinion but it took a higher standard of living which gave men the chance to really understand their tools for the 1911 to be THE gun. Up until men had the time and the money the 1911 was a tool that took too much time to learn and cost too much to shoot it.

Once men realized how much better it was to have a crisp trigger pull first and the action happen after it was just a matter of time before revolvers would be obsolete. No more fighting a 9 lb trigger pull to turn the cylinder while fighting to keep the sights in line. A crisp 3lb let off and the fight for control moved to after the shot instead of before it.

Even today few guns have the trigger a 1911 has, the P7 or the Model 52 Smith come to mind but it's the 1911 that still rules in my opinion.
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Old October 30, 2017, 05:59   #28
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Being serious here, so save your jokes until after someone post a pict of juggling jugs.

Reason I ask is that I got a "Learning shooting" like book from the 70s and it (1) called the 1911 "Colt Government Model" which I think was its original name and (b) it treated it as just another semiauto that had nothing special compared to others in the books, and a few steps below revolvers (remember: 70s). There was no superlatives or mention that it was popular on the competition circuit or any circuit at all; it was just an American surplus market pistol. I would even add that reading the book makes me think the Church of JMB had not been founded yet.

So, when did it start and how did it happen?
Well to the point of your question you had different schools of thought in the 70s.

For example Elmer Keith had little use for any autoloader then there were others pretty similar thinkers like Bill Jordan, an enormous advocate of the .41 Magnum. Those Men were extremely well respected, Jordan was a serious old school Man killer & Keith the father of Magnumitus.
Then there was another faction with Men like Skeeter Skelton and Jeff Cooper who were more inclined toward autoloaders, Cooper in particular. It was under their influence that the public started to take an interest in semi autos.

Cooper was involved in a number of projects. Seem to recall he was one of the guys who came up with the .40 G&A {Guns & Ammo} referring to the periodical. Was a method of upgrading the superb Browning High Power to what was seen as an effective round. Under American thinking 9mm was just weak. That in turn led to the Bren 10...a CZ75 knock off in a 10mm chambering.

This was all well before the wonder nine craze which only went into full swing with Mel Gibson and the Lethal Weapon franchise in the 80s
Gibson did for the Beretta what Eastwood had done for the .44 Magnum in general.

In the 70s the venerable 1911 was not that popular among handgunners
While reliable they ate money to make accurate. Most folks that had a 1911 owned a plain jane military but even most of the Colt commercial were never tack drivers and they tended to be quite cheap to get into...I'm talking a hundred dollar bill would easily put you into a used Government model in the mid 70s & they were pretty thick at shows. Most folks wanted a revolver, ideally a .22 or a .357 magnum, at least up here.
and usually a single action.
I have no clue how many Italian .22 Buffalo Scouts my father sold back then. We were getting them ten or more at a time from EMF at just under $20.00 apiece, selling them at $45.00. Yeah margins used to be a great deal better for firearms dealers.

Anyways I'd say your "cult" likely started late 70s with the advent of aftermarket frames and folks slapping examples together from what used to be dirt cheap surplus parts due to the rapid escalation in surplus 1911 valuation. What was a hundred dollar gun in 75' or before by the early 80s was nudging $400. Interestingly WWI vintage guns held less value than a WWII Remington Rand

Also consider by the early 80s compact 1911s were showing up
That sort of started late 70s with folks cutting down Essex aluminum frames and shortening slides. Detonics picked up the interest bringing theirs out and by the early 80s Colt was marketing their Officers model.
AMT became another early player in both full size and their long slide variants in Stainless very late 70s maybe ?
bunch of other companies were cranking out their versions, most crashed and burnt. Hard to compete against the Chinese Norincos that were still pouring in.

Understand in the 70s up through the 80s there wasn't a whole lot of aftermarket parts even for 1911s, just a handful of pages in old Brownells catalogs, mostly grips and sights along with barrels/bushings and tooling like vice blocks to crush fit military slides to NM tolerances.

Yeah I built a number of 1911s in my late teens to turn a quick dollar, nothing fancy. Better money in building ARs back then, less time involved with better return on investment.

I guess I'd figure common folks started to hop on the 1911 bandwagon roughly 78'
Something to remember is in much of America obtaining a concealed carry permit wasn't very easy, many jurisdictions it was at the descretion of local law enforcement back in 70s and 80s. They were not seen as suitable for hunting and not that many folks actively shot them. Remember up through the mid 80s you couldn't have cases of ammo shipped to your door, you were at the complete mercy of your local retailer unless you reloaded and few could afford to buy off the shelf just to burn it up in a few hours at the range or gravel pit.

Different times indeed.

oh, a correction
Wilson didn't get into the manufacturing angle until the 90s ?
no way in the 70s, I even doubt it was the 80s
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Old October 30, 2017, 09:11   #29
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Bill Wilson was a one man custom shop long before he began offering parts. He customized 1911's using other supplier parts mixed with repurposing other model parts such as Commander ejectors and hammers to spit cases out of a full size gun with more authority and lighter hammer along with drilling holes in long triggers to lighten them so lighter trigger pulls were possible. He and others began fitting solid busings, tightening slides so able to take the slide to frame slop out, fitting barrel hoods to barrels and generally using what they could source to take as much tolerance stack out of the system as possible along with fitting better sights and then the parts market followed. While he piddled with them before he began his custom shop specializing in 1911's in 1977. There were some guys that began before he did but he was the master at marketing and understood name recognition was most of the battle and believe his first parts were marketed under his name but made by other vendors and subcontractors based on needs of IPSC, bowling pin, custom carry, etc.

We had the original Detonics Combat Master that came out in 1976 and lasted until early 1987 before failed then reopened in late 1987 and lasted till 1992 then another couple years from 2004 till 2007 then did a reorganization and sale with fourth iteration of the company still in business. We had companies like Randall step up in early '80's that proved there was a market for factory semi custom guns but start up costs (first CNC made 1911's and first true left hand 1911's) of CNC equipment, research into stainless alloys allowing first stainless slide on stainless frame autoloaders that didn't gall as moved on each other.

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Stainless steel semi-auto handguns are now common, even passé. But this fact of life in the ’90’s would never have come to be had it not been for a small, now defunct company which dared to show the rest of the firearms industry the pathway to the future. Randall Firearms Company of Sun Valley, California, U.S.A., made it all happen with a line of high-quality Model 1911 derivatives.

Although Randall pistols were manufactured from only June 7, 1983 to May 15, 1985, they ushered-in an entirely new era for handguns, thus carving for themselves a place in the history of firearms around the world. This historic niche, coupled with the fact that Randall pistols are exemplary specimens of their genre, has made every single one of the 9,968 Randall pistols eminently collectible.
Must read short history:

https://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histo...ll_history.htm

I was in college when saw my first Randall stainless 45. Purchased a full size left hand model draining my bank account and ordered a matched pair of left hand/right hand consecutive serial number "Curtis E. LeMay's". Put down payment to place order, called my mom (not proud of this but was a poor college kid with real passion for 1911's) and told her had lost my books for the new quarter and had some car issues which got me a check that covered half the tab on that pair and got a campus job to finish paying for them. Soon they were bankrupt and was able to buy a few more before they became investment grade collector grade pistols. Mated up a full size right hand to the lefty, had the matched set of LeMay's and purchased every Randall was able to get my hands on since.

Now I buy a lot of customized pistols from the 1980's and 1990's with a Randall slide or a Randall frame along with parts. Recently found some new in package Randall left hand safeties as was a popular part they sold for lefties that wanted to put a real left hand safety on other make guns. As they pile up occasionally have the correct specification slide for frame and take a pair of customized guns and turn them back into a like factory original Randall. Have a couple that are Randall slides on frames that slide does not match configuration as shipped but at least are all Randall opposed to Randall/Springfield/Colt/whoever mix. Also have some lone slides waiting for a frame or complete mix pistol to pop up can buy and mate back together. 70's and 80's were fascinating times in development of 1911 improvements and small start ups with good ideas. Lots of people started building brands in this time that became what we know as Wilson and other similar custom and semi-custom shops.

Personally have a pile of vintage Colts that not owning a crystal ball was unable to know that having them customized in manner could not fully reverse was going to knock values down 60% to 70% or even more. Just like people that parted Randalls and original Detonics to build custom race and carry guns. But Detonics based on originals, Arizona made, Georgia to current manufacture have a wide swing in value. Always looking for Gen 1 at good prices or custom guns from 70's and 80's that have dipped in value to put back as look for other half as I do with Randalls. All of my rebuilds are marked as such so if I were to suddenly pass would not get sold as originals and the originals mostly have their boxes, paperwork and receipts. Now am collecting SIG 1911's and have eight of their pistols thus far. If buy new leave as is because purchased with features wanted. All the used pistols get run hard for a couple months then sent back to SIG Custom Shop and have every feature want added along with their full respringing and hand fitting of all parts returned with lifetime factory warranty in my name. Five of eight were bought with less than 100 or less than 50 rounds fired trade ins. Two original purchaser read the 1911 hype, went and purchased on in 45 acp and brought back within a week due to excessive recoil. When a full grown man can't handle a 45 acp can't help but wonder what would happen if handed one of these guys a 44 Mag, 454 Casul or 500 Smith?

Promised my wife when had 45 total 45's would quit buying. So before reached that number started finding 38 Supers, recently found my first 1911 in 40 (actually a 2011 double stack) and am keeping eyes peeled for deals in lightly used 357 SIG and decided to buy some 9mm minor calibers for when too old and feeble to double tap a compact 45. So while the number of 1911's continue to grow, have not exceeded my limit of 45 total 1911 45's. Having started collecting them in my teens and never letting a deal get by me have been able to put together a decent collection. Almost went as crazy with Hi Powers but several years ago prices on some spiked so high could not resist cashing in a few to feed other firearms desires. One thing I am sure of was in mid to late 70's just before and into my early teens the 1911 movement had already begun. Like my original Colt SP1 had a 1911 paired with it before my 16th birthday and the disease has never waned.
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Old October 30, 2017, 12:37   #30
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In the 1950s the game was bullseye and the Army shooting team asked companies to come up with guns that would compete in bullseye matches. This is the time that gunsmith started building match accurate guns for two different cartridges, the 38 Special and the 45 acp. Colt built some 1911 38 special guns and about 1962 Smith built one called the model 52 that shot 38special.

It was 45 or 38 Special because they were the most accurate cartridges in slow fire bullseye competition. It all changed when the competition went to shoot and move and more changes came along in guns and cartridges but for a long time the 1911 with a 200 grain lead semi wadcutter backed by a bullseye charge was the most accurate combination out there.

They tried to get the 38 super to be the gun and cartridge of choice in the early days because the super wasn't much different than the 38 Special plus the super didn't have the problem of stacked rims the special did. It took compensators and overloads to get the super up to major power factor. Supers rule the game now because they changed the game.

Guy that basically knocked the 45 acp 1911 out of competition was Rob Leatham with a combination of his isocoles stance and ported 38 supers.
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Old October 30, 2017, 15:56   #31
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http://www.coltforum.com/forums/atta...r-img_1504.jpg



1911 Colt NM in 38 Special made 1961 for bullseye shooting.
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Old November 01, 2017, 16:28   #32
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I have had the opportunity to look at a few 1911s that were worked on by
Big name pistolsmiths during the golden age of IPSC in the late 70s and early 80s.

I think my favorite was a commander from Ikey Stark’s SportsWest shop in Colorado.

Good times
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Old November 02, 2017, 09:54   #33
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So, when did it start and how did it happen?

Hill 223 in the Chatel-Chehery sector of the Meuse-Argonne sector, October 8th, 1918

After going through several five-shot clips of ammunition, he began to run low. Suddenly a German officer and five men charged him with fixed bayonets. Having only a couple of rounds in his rifle, York drew his Colt Government Model 1911 .45, ticking them off back to front in the manner he hunted ducks back home in Tennessee.




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March 5, 1969!
Stop reading your own press releases.
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Old November 04, 2017, 23:41   #34
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Have loved them since 60's also. Can't believe my wife uncle got a D.C.M. U.S.&S. that was as new for the numbers we remember like $17.00 or something like this.
Yep, $17 and that included shipping.

BTW, SAFN49 answered correctly. I was born in 1956 and the 1911 pistol was used in competition, and as a defensive firearm, LONG before I came around. I built my first 1911 when I was 14-15 yrs. old. Dad had a parts gun he gave to me and I started "customizing" by replacing parts from dad's stash of 1911 parts, until I found the perfect combination.

My Remington Rand that my grandfather bought through the NRA in the early 60's. Notice the total cost.....$17. It still sits in my safe today. I grew up shooting this piece but have many other 1911's now so it doesn't get brought out much anymore.
Notice the paperwork is marked "unserviceable". I guess that was their way of taking them out of government inventory. This pistol was never issued before grandpa got it.


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Old November 07, 2017, 09:34   #35
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(Selective Trimming)Colt built some 1911 38 special guns and about 1962 Smith built one called the model 52 that shot 38special.

It was 45 or 38 Special because they were the most accurate cartridges in slow fire bullseye competition. It all changed when the competition went to shoot and move and more changes came along in guns and cartridges but for a long time the 1911 with a 200 grain lead semi wadcutter backed by a bullseye charge was the most accurate combination out there.

It took compensators and overloads to get the super up to major power factor. Supers rule the game now because they changed the game.

Guy that basically knocked the 45 acp 1911 out of competition was Rob Leatham with a combination of his isocoles stance and ported 38 supers.
Have a Smith 52-2 wadcutter pistol from mid/late 60's manufacture along with a pair of rimfire Smith 41's. Still run 350 to 500 45 acp 200 grain cast SWC's pushed by Unique to this day from mix of 1911's including an older IPSC build rebuilt into a carry with compensator for boogyman land. In testing ballistic polycarbonates have discovered a 200 grain cast bullet will punch level 2 and some level 3 poly that no high performance jacketed hollowpoint will more than dent. It's like the cast bullet sheds material lubricating the bullet/substrate allowing the cast bullet to defeat it with enough juice to hurt a zombie behind it. Most bullets are caugh in traps, collected and recast for free bullets. Recycling my lead alloy just makes lobbing 45's that much cheaper.

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I have had the opportunity to look at a few 1911s that were worked on by
Big name pistolsmiths during the golden age of IPSC in the late 70s and early 80s.

I think my favorite was a commander from Ikey Stark’s SportsWest shop in Colorado.

Good times
Was lucky enough to live an hour away from Jim Stroh the American Pistolsmiths Smith of the Year for 1996 and specialized in 1911's but later became really well known for single action Ruger and Colts. Lucky enough to take his week long 1911 builders class in the 1980's. Darn the late 70's and 80's were great days for us 1911 guys. Now the kitchen table AR's built from out of spec Chinese parts are the current version of the Essex frame home built 1911's of the 80's. Look nice but lucky if they run right unless know how to fix an out of spec part.
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Old November 07, 2017, 11:24   #36
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Now the kitchen table AR's built from out of spec Chinese parts are the current version of the Essex frame home built 1911's of the 80's. Look nice but lucky if they run right unless know how to fix an out of spec part.
My first 1911 was a WWII Remington Rand slide assembly on an Essex frame.
Hard to forget the Island Pond, VT stamping.
Ran like a sprinter for years on 230 grain hardball! ...accurate too!
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Old November 08, 2017, 09:48   #37
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My first 1911 was a WWII Remington Rand slide assembly on an Essex frame.
Hard to forget the Island Pond, VT stamping.
Ran like a sprinter for years on 230 grain hardball! ...accurate too!
You must have had it properly sprung. How often do you reprint a hardball pistol? I like asking that as get answers from every 1,000 rounds to never. I respring every 10,000 on range guns and 5,000 on nice carry pistols. Actually had good luck with building Essex frames with name brand slides. It's when built an Essex slide on Essex frame when things got hinky as took a lot of fitting to get them accurate. If didn't know how to tighten slide then fit it to frame rails it was loose as a RG 25 auto pocket pistol. Unfortunately I cracked two Essex slides in my jig for compressing with minimum pressure. Never cracked any other slide, even some of the current under $400 1911's coming out of the Philipines these days.
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Old November 08, 2017, 12:24   #38
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You must have had it properly sprung. How often do you reprint a hardball pistol? I like asking that as get answers from every 1,000 rounds to never. I respring every 10,000 on range guns and 5,000 on nice carry pistols.
I have no idea how that old pistol was sprung, it was just dead reliable as it was...and loose as a goose.

I'm a little more spring savvy now, after all these years with 1911's.

Every 5K-10K rounds sounds a reasonable spring change interval, to me.

It takes me a couple years to reach that mark due to spreading out the wear and tear over several pistols.
Harder to wear one out thataway.
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Old November 08, 2017, 13:16   #39
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The main issue with Essex were their frames. The holes in the frame were notorious for being drilled in the wrong location. When I was schooled on the 1911, we were told NOT to work on Essex stuff because of this and if we did, the first step was to verify that all the holes were in the proper locations.
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Old November 08, 2017, 18:34   #40
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The main issue with Essex were their frames. The holes in the frame were notorious for being drilled in the wrong location. When I was schooled on the 1911, we were told NOT to work on Essex stuff because of this and if we did, the first step was to verify that all the holes were in the proper locations.
Luckily I had a place in North Atlanta that stocked them and could take my pin locating jig, some proper diameter rod stock and ensure all pin holes were in proper place and square. Would generally pick through half a dozen to pick the best one or two. Now I have three pin jigs and one with hardened steel bushings so no worries about wallowing out the jig but so many decent quality used pistols running around its much easier to buy a used quality pistol or new mid grade and massage them into a custom if want. Have had to weld up a single out of spec hole and redial a time or two but once I got to making money my SOP was build on Colt frames and slides. Series 80's hit a point where were low priced and was easy to neuter them, insert a shim and build a Colt on a better budget, found two Series 80's someone neutered and did not put the shim in and owner had some minor issues as a result picked up cheap with pile of expensive aftermarket parts already added.
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